templelady

You aren't excommunicated for not tithing People outside the LDS faith are fixated on the temple They don't understand that the LDS chapels are where Sunday worship is held It is where the sacrament is given It is where Sunday school is the relief society Etc Etc. If you are excommunicated you can't teach, you can't offer prayer, you can't hold a calling In other churches this may not seem a big deal but in LDS Church's all adult members are regarded as roughly the equivalent of ordained ministers ANY woman can be made relief society President Any man can be called as a bishop or a stake president Anybody can be called as Sunday school presidents ANybody can be called as anything at any time. High school students attend four years of Seminary every morning before school. In countries where Proselytizing is only allowed to be done by ordained ministers-those years of seminary count just like going to seminary to be a Lutheran pastor or Catholic Priest. To be excommunicated in the LDS Church has the same effect as a Catholic priest being defrocked. You are no longer allowed to Serve in any capacity Not Tithing keeps you from the temple excommunication restricts you to being an observer of the lifeblood of The church as opposed to an active participant.

GOld nugget texture unpolished is really beautiful Alaska Jewelry is a very reputable company

WTH excommunicated does not mean Banned in the LDS church It means you can't go tot the temple, and you aren''t a member Excommunication is the result of Sin--adultery, criminal offense the like. Many lDS who are excommunicated go to church while they work with the Lord and the Bishop to get their live in order and then are readmitted to fellowship. LDS do not know who among them is excommunicated unless the person excommunicated tells them.!! It is entirely possible to have a friend who goes inactive who never tells you she is excommunicated WHY??? because it is no-body's business but her and the Bishop's There is no Mark and Avoid No marking, or scarlet letters No avoiding -if we were to avoid then we would not be displaying the love of Christ and it is the Love of Christ not the LDS church per se that turns lives around. I currently visit teach three sisters who are inactive--it matters not to me if rhey attend church, or even if they want to see me every month, they are in my prayers, I call them, I send them notes--they are my sisters--that is all that matters

When I was married 25 years, I took a look at my wife one day and said, "Honey, 25 years ago, we had a cheap apartment, a cheap car, but I got to sleep every night with a hot 25-year-old blonde." "Now, we have a nice house, nice car, big bed and plasma screen TV, but I'm sleeping with a 50-year-old woman. It seems to me that you are not holding up your side of things." My wife is a very reasonable woman. She told me to go out and find a hot 25-year-old blonde, and she would make sure that I would once again be living in a cheap apartment, driving a cheap car, sleeping on a sofa bed and watching a 10-inch black and white TV. Aren't older women great? They really know how to solve your mid-life crises.

Dan Have you thought of taking a picture of the cross you want and giving to a high school student who is taking woodworking. Or to someone in your area who has a cottage industry and/or works with wood.? The price would probably be far more reasonable and you could select the wood you want, design etc. If you wanted it in metal there are probably people in your area who work in that material too.

NO ducking needed What I have a problem with had a problem with even when a TWI-ite is the idea of Demanding anything of God Because IMO, when you start saying that it is YOUR believing or MY believing that determines haw fast something happens then, again IMO, you are dictating to God what his Timetable should be-- And I have a really hard time getting a handle on that

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Doing the Happy dance and cartwheels of joy

Actually Polygamy is a very practical lifestyle. You have multiple people to help with Child rearing, housekeeping, etc etc. If one person gets sick there are others to pick up the slack. You have several minds to work on a problem, you have strength of numbers in a physically unstable society. Just to name a few. Polygamy in the LDS church was instituted by God to make sure that all woman had someone to care for them. A big deal in an era where many men died in accidents, the War of 1812, etc. Woman didn't have the vote, couldn't own property, had no available careers except for dressmaking and housekeeping, maybe a clerk in a store. A woman with children could not teach school. Polygamy was a God send for them. Not htat all wives were happy about it--there were somwe serious objectiopns -- and there were men who didn't live up to their responsibilities. Fallible humans dontcha know. But the idea was sound

So in a 'nut' shell Mo, putting all the ex-LSD sites aside and what their exmormon posters say...you agree with your churches position that 1/ non-Mormons and those within the Mormon church who do not tithe are not counted worthy to enter their temples. Yes, every group has its rules-these are ours 2/ the prophets of the church received visits from 'spirit beings' Joseph Smith received visits from Spirit Beings as you call them, others may have , It is entirely possible, just as it is possible for you or me. speaking for mysellf, having had the experience (long before i was LDS), I would wholeheartedly agree that it happened 3/ celestial heaven (Mormon heaven) is located near a star called 'Kolob' Yes to Kolob There are three heavens Celestial Kingdom Terrestrial Kingdom and Telestial Kingdom --calling the Celestial Kingdom Mormon Heaven is an over simplification but for this question it will work, Each heaven is broken down into leels which are broken down into levels........."in my Fathers house are many Mansions" 4/ the prophets of the church receive 'revelation' from God for doctrine (however, the revelation can change due to governmental laws etc..) Then the revelation is renamed 'opinion' The entire reason LDS have a prophet is that we believe that God reveals different things to different generations. What he told Noah was far less complete that what he told Isaiah which was far less complete than what he told Paul. We don't believe that he would leave his children without a prophet in a world that is constantly in flux, VPW was actually correct on the point of Different administrations, and different dispensations, I don't necessarily agree with VPWs breakdown of same, but the core principal was correct. Thanks for the dialogue Mo, (and I agree you are classy !) Belle on the other hand could do worse than to take a 'class' on decorum. You are welcome thank you for the compliment and I would really appreciate it if you were nicer to Belle I would I would

Really -where??? 'cause I haven't directed anyone anywhere I did finally get to the site you recommended It is filled with Jewels of knowledge such as the below Since only Christians are justified in the sight of God, only they can rest in knowing they are no longer under the wrath of God but are free from the law of sin and death (I'm so glad that these worthy gentlemen are present to Tell Christ who he may speak for because what the Bible actually says is that no one comes to God except through Christ. In other words Christ speaks for them- The notion that someone has to belong to a particular sect in order for Christ to consider it is a man made theology-But if we are to follow these gentlemen they have decided just who in their opinion Christ is allowed to speak for. And here I always thought Christ got to make that decision-he knowing men's hearts and all-) They also have a lengthy article on how to create a scene if visiting a temple open to the public before it is dedicated. Abrasive demands and loud objections--Wouldn't it just be easier to stay home if you don't agree or aren't interested in what LDS have t say about LDS beliefs?? And of course there is an article claiming that those of us who aren't married will not be saved--Sigh An article on why these gentlemen are entitled, in there opinion, to judge others The requisite Article on How Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ except when It comes to LDS theology and then he is not Jesus Christ etc etc etc

Since I know almost nothing about what you actually believe except that it is based loosely on the teaching of VPWIt would really be helpful if you told me exactly what belief of yours I threw stones at Repudiation of my counter claims does not make their repudiations true it just means they have repudiated them Have you ever been to an LDS service? Have you ever attended an LDS gospel Doctrine class? Have you ever listened or attended a general or stake conference ?? Have you ever experienced for yourself what goes on in an LD church???

CHAPTER IV THE HOUSE OF THE LORD I can't-actually won't-- speak to this here- as it is the temple ceremony-I can tell you that not all parts are true and I can also tell you that God has made revelations that have also resulted in changes to the ceremony Personal opinion and feelings are just that CHAPTER V FEAR, FAITH, OR LOVE? Long sections that appear to be from the Book the Double Bind She also cites Bruce Mcconkie letter of rebuke to Professor Eugene England, Feb. 19, 1981 Professor England had a lot of disagreement with the LDS church. Most people who disagree with a faith leave. But Professor England wanted to remain LDS and at the same time be allowed to carry on about how bad and wrong it is . I know of no church that would allow this kind of behavior without rebuking the person involved. She again cites the Journal of Discourse which is regarded as neither scripture or doctrine by the Church.. In fact that is why there is a Journal of discourse for all the talks that are either of these two things. that is not to say that Doctrine and scripture are not accurately portrayed in J of D but sometimes what is portrayed is a persons musings--the reader is expected to weigh what they read in this light. The Church authorities dominated us because their Priesthood authority represented God, and what they required of us, we did. Our common sense died. We were expected to obey without question or face the wrath of God. Instead of experiencing new ideas by questioning and considering the ramifications, we learned to do as we were told. Failing to exercise your God given freewill and brain -is on you. If you want to be a mindless follower of anything that is on you -- not the organization you belong too. I found myself continuously suppressing my emotions, logic and power of reason. Questioning the Church's general authorities (The Binders) is forbidden. Even complaints against local leaders are discouraged. Psychological pressure is used to obtain submission. The punishment for questioning is disfellowshipment (church probation) or worse, excommunicated (cut off from God's presence), Excommunication and probation are given for adultery, spousal abuse, alcoholism, criminal behavior and declaring that the Church is not true or preaching beliefs that are not LDS and claiming they are. It is not done lightly and if you think that LDS aren't allowed to disagree about doctrine etc--I invite you to one of my Gospel Doctrine classes --opinions abound We believed that if our extended family chose to turn their backs on God's plan, we'd have to turn our backs on them. Love became conditional. Looking back now I can see that I was robbed of individuality and the ability to reason. We lost that which meant the most to us, our families. We assumed we were right and our inactive family members were wrong There we go with "we" again this entire section is noteworthy for the shortage of scripture references-but loaded with personal opinion And so it goes on--- It Is really simple-If you don't agree with the LDS church don't join or if you belong leave. We don't shackle you to the pews or post armed guards outside of your house. You can go anytime We do not curse you from the podium, or spread lies about your character if you leave. We miss you and most of us will try to maintain a friendship with you. You will not find LDS standing outside the doors of a Baptist church trying to block people from entering the church. You will not find LDS pickets surrounding a Fundalmentalist Church with signs proclaiming that all members of that church are going to hell--Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the other way around

CHAPTER III WHAT WE WERE TAUGHT ABOUT MORMONISM In order to be worthy to attend the temple we were told that we must confess all our sins to the Bishop and Stake President, Incorrect-- certain sins are inquired about, adultery, homosexuality, abortion, capital crimes, felonies, but there is no confession as takes place in the Catholic Church attend all church meetings, both ward and stake, Desirable but if you don't your recommend won't be pulled-or else mine would have been gone long ago pay a full and honest tithing which consisted of 10 percent of our income, Yes pay our share of the ward budget Oops-there is no such thing as a ward Budget--Wards are funded from Salt Lake which funds them form the tithes and pay fast offerings on the first Sunday of every month Recommended but not required fast offerings are what you would save if you skipped two meals this money is donated to the ward where it stays and is used to feed, cloth, shelter, pay utilities etc of those members in need-it is the Church welfare system at the grass roots level We were taught that the priests and pastors of other religions do not have the authority to marry a couple for eternity, therefore, the marriage union ceases to exist at death, and the children are left without parents in the eternity. Pres. Joseph F. Smith said, "When couples marry outside the temple, they cut themselves off. They have no claim upon each other, or their children upon them, and there will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth." Since no other church believes that families will be together in the afterlife as families this is true-Why would they have the authority to seal families together when they don't believe it is possible for them to be together? We were instructed to accept all church callings because they are from the Lord, But you won't loose your recommend or be denied one if you don't nor if you ask to be released from a calling or again, mine would have been gone long ago to be honest in all our business dealings, Good plan and to keep the Word of Wisdom, which generally meant abstinence from tea, coffee, tobacco, liquor and cola drinks. Coffee, Black tea, and Alcohol banned -some people drink colas some don't- but they are not forbidden We were advised not to associate with persons and/or groups that were against the Church, Against as in those who actively indulge in what would today be regarded as "terrorist" attacks against the Church or its members. Most LDS have friends who are not LDS and to refrain from reading or studying any material that was not Church approved. We don't have the equivalent of a "banned in Boston " list--I've never been asked about my reading material by anyone To do so would cause us to lose our testimonies and thus in the end, we would lose our family. Personal l opinion here We held true to all we were taught, not even daring to drink a cola beverage or play with face cards (instruments of sin). HUH???? Cards Instruments of sin???? ROFLMAO We took every word our leaders and teachers said seriously and did all in our power to prove that we were worthy to attend the temple. For some reason they let us go to the temple after being active in the Church for only nine months, but it was the longest nine months of our lives. Perhaps they saw how sincere we were. Frankly I am stymied by this-You don't do anything special to get a temple recommend-anyone who has been baptized and is an adult member (if you join as an adult there is a one year waiting period more so you can learn more about the church and decide if you want one--there are LDS who have been members all their lives and never asked for one) can get a recommend--It takes a grand total of about 15 minutes and providing that you aren't guilty of a crime, keep the word of wisdom and pay your tithe you'll get one. There are no special tasks, or responsibilities involved in getting a recommend-you just go to the bishop and ask for an interview. We were also taught that no man or woman in this dispensation would ever enter the Celestial Kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith (J of D, vol. 7, p. 289). http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_07/refJDvol7-44.html The journal of Discourses is a collection of the teachings and sermons of all the prophets of the church This particular one was given by Brigham Young. I don't get that from reading the entirety of his remarks. But then I also understand that a prophet prophesying as God instructs and a prophet sharing his own ideas and feelings are sometimes two different things. 3) The Telestial Kingdom is prepared for those who live unclean lives: the liars, sorcerers and adulterers, and those who break their covenants with God Breaking your covenants with GOD is more than being inactive you can keep the commandments and not go to church. I think it would be harder - but It is possible --Again as I stated somewhere else on this thread. God is the trier of Men's hearts not us. Finally Larry's parents became angry and told us they didn't want anything to do with the Mormon Church and that we were no longer welcome in their home if we kept preaching to them. We immediately stopped talking to them about it, but we were at a loss as to what to do. Our Bishop told us that sometimes you have to give up your immediate family and do what the Lord wants you to do. We became less and less involved with our extended families. ANY Bishop that advocates giving up your family because they disagree with you on doctrine--is so far out of line as to what the c church teaches--180 degrees out of line that --well lets just say God will deal with him at some point The wheel of The Double-Bind, the fear that our failure to be one-hundred per centers could be the cause of losing our family forever, kept The Pattern, (the psychological imprisonment) turning. Ah, Finally something that Allan and I can agree on THE Fear No where does the church demand !00% quite the opposite you do the best you can- that is all God expects. This family relied on there own efforts, they let their fears rule them, instead they could have placed it all In God's hands and leaned on Jesus Christ. They didn't I know this because nowhere in this entire missive is prayer for help, learning on Christ, looking to God for answers ever discussed . It is all "I" , and "We" over and over--so sad-But a trap many Christians fall into , LDS and Non What I see here is a woman who never fully understood her religion by her own admission, And when She did become active-it was not out of desire to understand the Church, or to know GOD. She was in Grief and wanted to be with her child-every goal was directed toward this. It's called tunnel vision-we all have it at times in our lives. When you are tunnel visioned you see only those things that will get you to your goal and you ignore anything that you do not perceive as not getting you there. This is not the way to learn about what it means to be LDS or to learn bout any other faith or belief system for that matter

cont from previous post CHAPTER II TRAGEDY STRIKES she goes on to describe their home life, and then a tragic accident that kills one of their daughters and finally we come to the LDS church We were in such pain that neither Larry nor I could think straight, let alone make the many preparations necessary for Cindy's funeral. Larry's parents came to our aid. They were also fifth-generation Mormon, but were not active in the Church. They knew very little about its teachings, but put the funeral into the hands of the LDS Church leaders in Ogden, Utah, where they lived They end up becoming active LDS and she outlines the teachings of the LDS church Items 1 through 6 are correct (her opinions are just that Her opinions) But when we get to Number 7 creative license creeps in 7) By accepting baptism and becoming a member of the LDS Church, one takes the first step necessary toward gaining salvation and ultimate entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven (the Celestial Kingdom). Temple marriage is another requirement for admittance into the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom where God and Christ reside, and where families are forever President Ezra Taft Benson "To the Single Adult Sisters of the Church" " the Ensign " Nov 1988 page 88 I also recognize that not all women in the Church will have an opportunity for marriage and motherhood in mortality. But if those of you in this situation are worthy and endure faithfully, you can be assured of all blessings from a kind and loving Heavenly Father—and I emphasize all blessings. I assure you that if you have to wait even until the next life to be blessed with a choice companion, God will surely compensate you. Time is numbered only to man. God has your eternal perspective in mind. And Gordon B Hinckley Daughters of God Ensign, Nov. 1991, 97 Some who are not married, through no fault of their own, ask whether they will always be denied the highest degree of glory in that kingdom. I am confident that under the plan of a loving Father and a divine Redeemer, no blessing of which you are otherwise worthy will forever be denied you[/color] 8-9 correct then we come to 10 10) We were taught that if we became faithful Mormons, doing all we were asked to do, we would be reunited with our daughter, Cindy, and be an eternal family. We loved the promise of families being together forever. But we were also told that if we did not do all that we were asked, we could not go were Cindy is, that is, the Celestial Kingdom, nor could we all be together forever as a family. {you do not follow God, do not strive for a life that is free of sin do not do your best to follow Christ you loose out on rewards -that is what every Christian church teaches} The weight of the two alternatives became a pattern of needing to excel at whatever was placed before us and the guilt of possibly not living up to the task and losing our family forever. It became a vicious cycle that I now refer to as living The Pattern by being entrapped in the web of the Double-Bind. IMO they left Godout of the equation also the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ -they tried to do it on their own--and that doesn't work which brings us to part three

Okay I took Allan's challenge and delved deeper into the first site he posted http://www.exmormon.org/journey/journey_a.htm#CHAPTER%20I You can read along The first thing that leaps from the page are the following statements I was baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) when I was eight years old. Even though my parents were inactive members, baptism was something that was expected of everyone. The teachings of the Church were not taught in our home; hence, I received no information about its history or doctrine. Even though my parents were not active, their roots go very deep in the LDS faith. I am a fifth-generation Mormon on both sides. I attended primary (church for children), but then had very little contact with the Church in my teen years She then goes on to tell about how this inactive family suffered much heartache , alcoholism and death all will remaining inactive, before she and her sister were sent to their grandmothers Although Grandma had a very impressive LDS pioneer heritage, I don't ever remember her attending church. Grandpa was a Catholic, but I don't remember him ever attending church either. Little did I know that I would eventually be taught that the Catholic Church was considered by Mormons to be the Church of the Devil. * She and her sister end up as wards of the state,. she carries the son of her foster parents she then quotes LDS Scripture Behold there are save two churches only, the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil." (I Nephi 14:10) Maybe I'm missing something here but isn't that what God says???-You either obey Him or you don;t You either Serve Him or you Don;t You either follow Him or you don't And Doctrine Bruce R. McConkie's book Mormon Doctrine he states: "The titles 'church of the devil' and 'great and abominable church' are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature--whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious--which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God" Sounds right to me which brings us to section two

Allan your latest link does not work Can yo udouble check that it is correct thanks

For many years I was on SSI because of my multiple sclerosis Now I pay all my own medical Because I am on blood thinners I have to have routine blood tests and every time I go to the lab they ask if I am still on Medicaid and I tell them no This last time the woman said "how long have you been off Medicaid' "since Last November"Ii replied,"why don't you take it out of the database that I am on Medicaid" You would have thought I demanded the sacrifice of her unborn children with the look she gave me. I love(NOT) going to stores while a knot of clerks stand and chitchat when I am looking for something--I am terribly rude I guess because I routinely break up these mini gab sessions to ask for assistance-only to be met with exasperated sighs that anyone should think that they as empl;oyees of the store should actually do the job they are paid for. And Pet peeve number one--cashiers who with their new fangled cash registers know how much cash to give back--but instead of counting it back ---shove the whole thing in your hand with the bills askew and the change sliding of the top of the heap. So you end up holding up the line while you count it back to yourself---

And that is where I get confused AllanIf you don't agree with everything that TWI teaches why are you annoyed when I don't either??? If you don;t agree with everything that VPW taught why are you annoyed that I don't either??? I have never said that I disagree with Everything I learned in TWI Actually Allan that is the one area we are in 100% agreement I left TWI and found something that IMO is better for me. You left TWI and swapped it for a sanitized version. And that is fine--my problem with CCF and the offshoots is they still use what VPW taught and I don't want to spend my life evaluating everything I hear because the Man who taught it was a adulterous, alcoholic, womanizing , liar who continued his behaviors right up to death's door. Beyond that I know little of CCF teachings- So what is it exactly that you believe that you feel I have have belittled and ridiculed (other than VPW)

no coffee, no black tea, no alcohol, no smoking, no illegal drugs It's called the Word of Wisdom because of the acids and tannins and carcinogens etc these things are not allowed

Yup 35 years during that Time frame in addition to TWI was Methodist, Free Methodist, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Baptist and Salvation Army Okay Allan Let us go down the list of some VPW teachings 1) All women in the Old Testament belonged to the king By extension all woman therefore are here to bless the MOG including sexual intercourse at his demand true or false? 2) if my child is hit by a drunk driver who careens over the sidewalk Ito my yard that is the result of my lack of believing or wrong believing --true or false? 3) If you don't speak in tongues your aren't born again -true or false? 4) if you can't operate all nine of the manifestations of the spirit all the time you lack believing true or false? 5) failure to follow the directives of leadership, any leadership no matter how bizarre is a sufficient reason for you to be Marked and avoided (excommunicated) and your character smeared true or False? 6) if you aren't ABSing God won't spit in your direction True or false? 7) if you do not follow TWI teachings you will be outside of the household and not be protected by GOD true or false? These will do for openers

If you mean scan disc--It is gone And It annoys the daylights out of me It was one tof the programs I always ran to fix da Bugs

'' On a personal level I like Jim Martin We have had many long talks via phone over the years and he has been there for me during some rough patches I can't speak to anyone else's interactions with him I suppose one of the reasons one starts their own site or forum or message board or new s list is so that they can do it "THEIR WAY" I am sad that people are getting hurt

Who wants to be God of their own planet? As too who wants to be God of their own planet-personally I think it would be kind of fun-designing mountain ranges-creating new animals, the seasons Back to the beginning in Genesis when the devil said, "You can be like God!".. And if you are Mormon, I guess it must be true, eh? Is that what you believe temple lady? Satan was playing games with Adam and Eve he wanted them to think they could do without God I mean, I just don't see any truth.. Our God, the one true God. Who is God of all God's the scriptures state, is really only God of this planet according to the Mormons. Actually the God who created this Planet is Jesus Christ- Bible says so He did so at the direction of God the Father And we serve the God of this planet, for this unforeseen amount of time in probation (as the Mormon scriptures state), and if we fulfill everything, we then get to go be God of our own planet, and well, the God we used to serve, He's just the God of that planet we used to be with and now don't serve Him anymore.. That's what they teach, am I right? Having had many Mormon friends and conversing with them, this is what they have said. Since our God was human at one time like us, and went through this same thing we are going through for the same purpose. This is what the Mormon scriptures state, am I right? So, I'm just curious then, since what God our Heavenly Father has said, concerning the resurrection in His written word (as in Corinthians all things shall be put under Him AFTER the resurrections), and the Mormons teach you actually get out from under this once human God like yourself. NOT!!! God the Father ids God the Father and Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ now and forever as is our relationship to them--Planet making is one of the rewards How can you think that what Mormon's teach and their writings are right? They don't line up. Not a yod or a tittle. It's man made from the beginning to the end. Or do you reject what the Bible states? They don't line up, so it'd be hypocritical to believe both, unless you pick and choose

MORMONISM IS NOT WHAT YOU THINK Here are some beliefs Mormons resist telling you at first... The LDS Church is the only true church. The Lord told Joseph Smith personally that all other churches are an "abomination." The Lord said that some of the teachings being espoused by churches of Joseph Smiths day were abominations What specific teachings are these so-called "abominations"? The most serious charge leveled was "priest-craft" Priest craft is when say they are spreading the gospel while at teh same time demanding payment for same-Paid clergy, Housing for clergy paid for by church, charging for the Bible and other scriptures etc ================= Any non-Mormon church is automatically part of the "church of the devil." FALSE We teach non LDS Christians lack the fullness of the restored gospel specifically the Temple and the Ordinances thereof ======================= No other church has the valid priesthood. TRUE Fair enough. The Catholic church believes the same as well as a few others. Join the club. ========== The devil has even made a pact with many Christian pastors to teach Christian doctrines about the Trinity and salvation by grace. FALSE So then the teaching of the Trinity is not "devilish" ? Yes or no ? Salvation by Grace ? Yes or no? We believe in God the father, Jesus Christ and the HOLY Ghost We believe they are three separate entities, that make yup the Godhead which is one in purpose- While we do not proclaim that those who believe in the one and the same person of the "trinity" are possessed by the devil or devilish we definitely feel they are incorrect Salvation is by Grace=Grace being "unmerited favor" We do not believe in once saved always saved-if you go out and commit murder you do not have a free pass. salvation is a two way deal Christ suffered and died sop that we could have a means of being reunited with God. If we truly accept that gift, obedience to the commandments, comes with it. We are top walk in Christ's footsteps ================ In public we say that all religions are good and have some truth. TRUE Ok, but what do you say in private? The same thing- one of the strongest injunctions in the LDS church is that we are not allowed to judge anyone Else's standing before God Christian or otherwise- God is the trier of men's hearts--That doesn't mean that we all live up to this principal or any other-we are just like everybody fallible humans ============== There are many gods. We deal with three of these distinct gods from the council of the gods: Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost. UNTRUE there is Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost Ok, so there is no council of Gods? Yes or no. No ============= God, the Father, was once a man like us. TRUE Interesting, when was that ? The specific of The time has not been revealed to us-obviously a time far outside of human awareness ============== His name is Elohim, and he had a literal father before him. (That means there is a god even higher than God the Father!) The church has never received revelation on this so anything postulated by anyone is on this subject is speculative So is this an official denial? There is no GOD higher than GOD the Father that we are concerned with Given what we understand about eternal progression that GOD himself was the Son of a bigger GOD is not outside the realm of possibility and could very well be true. Think of it as Jesus Christ is in charge of the world God the Father is in charge of the universe What if this universe is just one universe in a group of universes Kind of looking in a mirror that reflects another mirror that reflects another mirror on and on to infinity No one in the Mormon church believes this - yes or no? If we stop to think about it all of us would believe it--But most people have a full time job just living their life here on earth in a godly manner. If Super GOD exists--we aren't accountable to him God the Father would be, Jesus Christ is Accountable To God the Father and we are accountable to Jesus Christ Is this speculation allowed? yes or no ? WE ARE NOT A CULT we are allowed to speculate, discuss, ponder, think about, examine, this or any other thought that comes to mind--what we are not allowed to do is claim it is codified doctrine when it isn't. ================ We can progress to become gods of our own worlds just like the god Elohim. Elohim is the Hebrew Word for GOD. THE LDS church does not use the word preferring God the Father or Heavenly Father. We do believe in Spiritual Progression Vague reply. So then, does the LDS church believe that you can become "gods" like "God the Father" ? Yes or no. Gods in the same way that Jesus Christ created this world We will have Planets But Jesus Christ will still be our head God will still be the Head of Jesus Christ ============ Jesus is the brother of the devil, not his creator GOD the Father is the creator of Both Jesus Christ and Lucifer as well as the other angels and us That response doesn't address the issue. Does the Mormon church teach, or is there a prevalent belief that Jesus and Satan/Lucifer are "brothers". Yes or no. Jesus Christ and Lucifer existed pre World They are both creations of God in fact all spirits are Children of God since they are His Brother therefore is a valid description IT is also MY OPINION, held by some other LDS i know, that Lucifer was the original prodigal son =============== Jesus was not born of a virgin. Elohim had sexual relations with his daughter, Mary, to bring about the conception of Jesus. (Not all Mormons are familiar with this teaching.) Again there is a big difference from the pondering of man including the prophets and revelation by GOD Once again , a seeming dodge of the issue. Was Mary a virgin or not? Did God have sex with Mary or not? What is the prevalent belief among Mormons and what is the Official Line on these? Was Mary a virgin or not? Mary was a virgin Did God have sex with Mary or not? This is another area where we have no direct evaluation from GOD pondering and speculation vary from person to person I know LDS who believe this others do not. What we all agree on is that Jesus Christ is the literal son of God and Mary. The Particulars of how conception took place, while making for interesting discussions, in no way impact the truth of who Jesus Christ is. What is the prevalent belief among Mormons and what is the Official Line on these? The Official line is that we agree and concur with the descriptions given in the Gospels of the New Testament ================= We are not permitted to pray to Jesus, but only to another god named Elohim. We pray to Heavenly Father And again a vague reply. Is prayer to Jesus forbidden or not? Yes or no. We do not Pray to Jesus we pray to God the Father in Jesus Name as instructed by Jesus Christ himself. TO be honest I have never been affiliated with a church (and there have been Many) who opened a prayer with Dear Jesus Christ--This is a concept that makes me wince quite frankly--but that is me Celestial heaven is near a star called Kolob. Yes-another something that was take on faith-Proving or disproving by scientific means becomes meaningless So the LDS Church teaches this with nothing to support it ? It was given by revelation to President Brigham Young was was at that time our Prophet. We accept it on that basis ================= The Bible contains doctrinal errors. We believe that "plain and Precious truths" have been lost over the years hence the restored gospel So the the answer is yes ? YES I take this to mean that the LDS writings are superior to the Bible? Yes or no? NO LDS writings complement and expound more deeply on the truths of the Bible I have yet to find anything in LDS scripture that in any way minimizes or contradicts the position of Christ, his attributes, or his teachings I have found that I see more clearly what they are The LDS website has all the scriptures on line for free if you want to peruse them ============ Polygamy is an eternal principle. Mormons still believe in polygamy, but just can't practice it right now. We believe that Polygamy will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom Another dodge. Answer this, If the civil law would allow it, would polygamy be acceptable to the LDS Church today. Yes or no. YES ================== Black people were cursed with their black skin because of their inferiority in the pre-existent life. FALSE Ok, but are black people treated as equals with non-blacks in the LDS Church having the same rights and opportunities as anyone else? Yes or no. YES ============= Native American Indians are really Israelites who were cursed with red skin because of their sin. TRUE on being Israelites False on the Red Skin Interesting belief but quite unsupportable. Another "take it on faith" teaching? Yup -We believe they are Israelites part of the lost tribes the skin color doesn't; enter into the issue--Red skin isn't mentioned in the scriptures ================= The current prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, is a prophet in exactly the same sense as Moses or Ezekiel in the Bible. TRUE Ok. Finally a straight answer ..... ============== He has authority to write new scripture. He as Prophet, Seer and regulator receives messages from God teh Father-He is not authorized to Write scripture of his own accord With what accord then does the Hinckley/LDS have to write "scripture"? Does a board or committee have to review/ approve Hinckley's revelations or writings first ? Regardless of committees and boards, doesn't Hinkley pretty much have Carte Blanche on doctrine, kinda like VPW and the Pope? Yes or no. GOD writes Scripture, God gives revelations The Hierarchy of the LDS church goes like this The Prophet His Councilors (2) the Apostles (12) The Quorum of 70 and the several smaller Quorums Stake presidencies Ward Bishops If the Prophet receives Revelation from God it is shared with His Counselors and teh Apostles IF the Prophet were to come up with a so called Revelations that was out of whack with everything that God has said or even a good chunk of what God had said these gentleman are there to go "Whoa" And Just because something is given as revelation does not mean it becomes codified as doctrine. There are many revelations Since Joseph Smiths death in 1844 there have been only 6 revelations codified as doctrine in the LDS Church ========== The first LDS prophet, Joseph Smith, saw God the Father in the flesh. TRUE Another straight answer. I am shocked. Adam did not sin when he ate of the forbidden fruit, but was merely choosing to obey a contradictory command from Jehovah. FALSE Did Adam sin? YES Yes or no. Was God's command contradictory? Yes or no. NO HE said do not eat of the tree of knowledge or you shall surely die Adam ate and death entered the world ================ Jesus shed his blood to offer us the potential to be forgiven if we successfully stop our sins permanently. FALSE Ok, But what's the real teaching on this? Why did Jesus shed his blood? Jesus Shed his blood as the sacrifice for us. All through the old Testament, Rams and Bullocks and other animals were ritually slaughtered their blood being the necessary requirement for the forgiving of Israelites sins In the New Testament Jesus replaced all those animal offering once and for all ========== We cannot be saved (forgiven) by grace alone through faith alone. FALSE So then we (all humans) can be saved by grace alone through faith, with or without the LDS Church. Is that correct? Yes or no. YES The difference is where in Heaven you'll be living "in my fathers house are many mansions" ============= Secret temple rituals where one learns secret names and secret handshakes contribute to one's exaltation in the celestial kingdom. FALSE Ok, but what then goes on there? I know, it's a secret. Shhhhhhh ... So there are no secrest names and no secret handshakes? Is that true? NO Or is the denial just saying that these don't contribute to ones exaltation? That's It Ritual does not make you Worthy to enter Heaven - Following Christ does that ===================. No non-Mormon is worthy to go inside a dedicated temple. TRUE Ok, but what about blacks, other races, and women within the Mormon church ? Do they have the same "worthiness"as the white male members ? Yes or no. YES ====================== No one who pays less than 10% of their income to the LDS Church is allowed inside a functioning temple. TRUE ABS at its finest. 10% is the tithe to God Not 15% not 11% just 10% you don't have to tithe to be LDS YOU need to tithe if you want to enter the Temple Many LDS don't have recommends Many LDS don't tithe it's that individual walk thing ============= It is possible to eventually become perfect by progressing a little bit at a time through eternal progression TRUE-But eternal progression continues in the afterlife Hmm. Seems like a dichotomy to me. How can perfection once attained be improved upon? Perfection can;t be improved on but because we believe that man continues to learn and grown in the spirit world before Christ's return it is possible to attain perfection there

There are sites out there that are in what GSC is to TWI there is a newsgroup Alt.Mormon.org I believe, and probably others. The sites Allan quoted are none of these-- these sites (excluding the encyclopedia) are repeats of repeats of repeats of innuendo, and half truths that have been around since the 1800's. They are easy to spot. They follow a set pattern First how great a LDS Church Member the writer was how involved he/she was. Then how they met someone who showed them the truth--truth A quick look at the sites Allan listed show NOT ONE SINGLE QUOTE from the BOM D&C, Pearl of Great Price, Ensign, Liahona, Conference talks, or any other material that would be readily available to anyone who was actually LDS, to support what they claim are LDS teachings. This Material would also be readily available to anyone who searched the LDS web sites not found in the LDS church. They then go on to spout the drivel (urban legends) that have been around for ever. The sites, on the other hand, that exist that are for people that are dissatisfied with the LDS church are run as is GSC. They quote directly form LDS scriptures Chapter and Verse. The cite references from LDS materials. The absence of theis material clearly marks these sites IMO as of questionable value