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year2027

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Everything posted by year2027

  1. God of nothing, God of something, and God of everything first The voices I hear and illusion I see are they real or a dream! 03-17-2013 I wrote the voices I hear as sounds from the phone the wires above me and when no wire above me I wrote them off has own mind but some could be the sounds of the passed. The sound that travels through time and space the sound in our own DNA where God is in the spiritual spark of life itself. The soul that lives has the man in the image of God the less than truth and more than truth itself the image that lives in me. With my eyes closed I still see the visions of the spark of life the white light, purple light, green light eating all light even the black lights because the color of darkness is not black. It takes light to see the color black planes with mountains of light being ate by the greater light. The dogs of light barking the end is near has I see myself risen above own self has I done so many time before in my body or out of my body I do not know. I believe that are many returns of Christ and my personal return into a new life kind will not happen until 2027 AD so all of you do not worry yet because I am not leaving yet. The word “born again” could better be translated “conceive from with in” the spark of God is in the DNA of each of us and outside the DNA of us that how I get God more than our minds can understand and less than our minds could all time itself. Time only means what our image of time to be otherwise time means nothing and everything just math it self it only is the illusions we give it. I have justified the sounds and illusions that I witness as God teaching things that come from inside out and from the space that my body in sounds, body heat, reflections, gasses, smells, and everything other than I understand. I hear the wind it talk to me as do lives that have passed when I long to talk to them I spoke face to face with Adam, Cain, my mother, George Muller, Peter Marshall, Martin Luther, Gladys Aylward, John Huss, and others like Jesus Christ. Yes I talk to the dead but not just people I had a lot of animals that have die I once sat with a full house of animals that had passed you could say like a zoo of die animals. When the word says even eye shall see Christ coming back for then so guess what animals have eyes I even believe oxygen have eyes just because we do no see them does not mean there not there. Water and dust are two things dust takes water in and water cast dust out the change is back and forth. The water dries dust into mud than dust and than the water changes into water and back even the water on the moon change happens to mater what percent of dust or even what percent of water. Science has proven there is water on the noon so why not on the sun otherwise liquid fire is form of water that we all can witness if we dare. My mind is spinning so fast I can not stop all I can do is write things that some might think I am crazy but am I with love of truth what even that is I just to read the bible cover to cover in two weeks but now I can only listen to it but I plan to have glasses soon and holy kiss of the illusion I walk in from Roy.
  2. God of nothing, God of something, and God of everything first The illusion of math has we been taught! 03-16-2013 Math is a illusion that have been one and one can be elven or two but it is only a illusion when we add one plus one we get two because of the illusion we believe to be so. But if place the one beside another one we get elven a number greater than two otherwise some teacher or parent place this illusion in our head. Is the any thing that proves one plus one is two No there nothing that proves it is elven either nor is there anything to prove a “A” is a it is a illusion that we have been taught. Jesus Christ in a book under Gnostic titles question his teacher why is a “A” a “A” and not some other letter otherwise Jesus Christ understand it was a illusion that made us able to understand it meaning. All our words are just illusions to help us understand things more clearer just our numbers and our gods they are the illusions that we been taught to help us understand what is real. But what is the illusion is real and God is real because we believe in Math and words and they are illusions too. So I show you that you believe in illusions because you been taught but do not believe in the illusion of God are you delusion is your mind working correct or not. Are you mad, crazy, or something because your believing illusion but not all or have you proved in your mind there is no God but proven there is math and letters I do not think so. Believing in illusions is un-rational thinking and it points you toward having a illness of Schizoaffective a mental disorder of the mind. A mental illness is a psychological pattern or anomaly, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, and which is not considered part of normal development in a person's culture otherwise you are ill. Seeing things that have been proven to be illusions but believing them is even worse even that you may not believe all illusions are real believing one is making you crazy delusional person. Now because I believe in God that I can not prove does not make more delusion than you we share the sickness together because one illusion dose not made it not there it still a delusion. Thank you with love of my illusions and a holy kiss of my illusions unto you from Roy.
  3. The God of God with is the god of atheist, the god of Christianity, the god of Hinduism, the god of Buddhism, the god of Judaism, the god of Islam, the god of mankind, and the god of everything 03-12-2013 Today I am giving God full control of my mind, soul, spirit, that is part of me by trying to have my Social Worker make every decision that is the way I take away all pride from thoughts. I sure my Social Worker will not always have my best outcome I sure that will do things for what she thinks is best but my God will work it all out. This is only way to be free like Christ plan for God's children today I will not get burned by fire, hang on a tree, stone of rocks, but I might be tired to a bed until I think like they think. Like Joan of ark was, Bernadette was, Martin Luther was, Gladys Aylward was, John Huss was, Peter Marshall was, and so many others were in one way of another when they choice to do the will of God of God. Forgetting their own desires in their own life has they did the work of God like me year2027 are doing the work of God putting away everything even my own life freeing myself from life itself as Christ wants. Which is the only we can we can know God plan for own like teaching others what it is to give own body up to others knowing that they may put in the fire. Now it will not happen today and it might not even be this Social Worker but one will come some day in the year 2027 the year that I will give the ghost. They will say I am out of my mind because I do not think like they see best but I will be doing God work as a apostle of Christ under God's duty in Love of Truth. Now I am not written this to get attention but to tell you what will have to go though before so you may learn from my misfortune as God teaches me what it is to be free. I do not want anything from you but I only want to teach you about life itself so you can decide about your life before your death so you can be free like me. I do not wish misfortune on you but I am hoping that will learn from the misfortune that had to live in the last days of my life. Thank you for letting me write this unto you a self appointed apostle of Christ unto nothing with love of truth the wisdom that from being truthful about part of life and a holy kiss of child like friendship unto you from Roy.
  4. God of nothing, God of something, and God of everything first My world gone past! 02-08-2013 I was going to share about Origin of Species, by Charles Darwin -v- the Ethics, by Benedict de Spinoza -v- Number in Scripture by E. W. Bullinger a compared study but I cannot get pass my own life. I see nothing wrong with written about these three great men of God but I must write about me right now because thinking these made me able to share things I may not been able to share my inner self. We begin with a low time in my life when I was packing a gun everywhere because the police where at my door a lot these day it 1986. In 1987 I put a gun to my head to play a game Russian Roulette with a automatic pistil with full chick with the safety off but my friend stop me. Would I have did it I think so because life did not mean to me life was a ride that I was on and could get off. I had no value of life itself at this time in my life I was not afraid of death at all I fear living more than life itself but was calling even those days I once heard someone calling my name when no one was there. I ran off from the law but my mother talk me into coming home so I met the police Charles Williams with my pistil but I hide two shells on my own body because I was going shot myself and my friend. You see I was the bate that was going to get us lock up together but when Charles Williams would not let me point out my friend. In1987 I was put in jail where I tried to hang myself with own clothes but they took away my clothes and order to see a mental doctor but that did not mean anything to me but I got out of jail and it was not over yet. I decided to run it was 1988 so I got me a car and weapons I stop at a small town store I was going in the rob the place but I could not I purchase them a coke and candy and give it to them. Sure I had everything I needed to rob but God showed that I might hurt them and they have family and I did not want to hurt anybody. Later my car overheated in Columbus Ohio the Broad exit a police officer stop to give me help asking me if I had any weapons I lie to him ask him to call a tow truck so he did. After that close call with the law and after my car cool at the local motel the tow left me at I went toward some friends I met in Way Ministry house because about 1984 -1985 I have live there. So what what place to hide from law then right under there nose working at McDonald the manger would have watch the safe when they needed to take care of something with the money in my sight. It feel good for something to trust me I would walk to work later I moved in with two ladies and gave my weapons to a friend from the ministry. I decided to go WOW a program that the Way Ministry had because you travel outside where were in witness God's truth which I found was the Way Ministry truth. To be on the go all the time I believe I would not get caught and I decided to window wash a trade I learn after I left McDonald helping my Way friends. The first house I clean was Octagon House on 1095 W. 3rd St. Dubuque Iowa a thee story home build in 1856 with only six foot step ladler but this house had a place where I would on roof and my step ladler to clean the windows and the third floor was just a look out. I believe I only $320.00 got that I spit up with my WOW brother who help me begin my business which I called The Added Touch it took us two days. We were the first to get any money my WOW sisters took longer and the alone the other family that where with us. Later my there was three of us Ron, John, and me we would pray together and ask God for each job. I used to ask God to show me where I could get a job I would say thanks to God and Speak in Tongues to myself and place a map in front of me close my eyes and point at a street in my town. I got Mount Carmel, Sisters of Charity of the Blessed Virgin Mary a five story building home for nuns where the windows pull inside but the last floor but walk edge for about five windows everything other I clean from inside. Later I would Speak in Tongues telling Ron right or left where I receive the best yet University of Dubuque college we show up at a home that had the office maintenance for whole college. We did that job and others for the University of Dubuque but my most enjoyable was Sunny-Crest Manor Dubuque AssistedLiving home where I got to blessed old people in need. But like everything others all good things to come a end the law question me I lie but they put two and two together and came to my door. I ran out the front door around block and came a basement door but while I could stay still they jump on me because Ky told them I might armed. The Court House that I bid last week I was about to be in myself because Ky wanted $70.00 bond with no ten percent cash only my WOW sister wanted to call her gram mother I say no. I was ready to face the musical what ever happen good or bad would my outcome my WOW brothers keep on working the jobs I got them. But was in jail to stay or was I because ask the Judge to let me out OR without a bail the DA said he had no problem with me going free for now but the judge did yell and said you two crazy. I was in the Gran Jury of the court system over and over I was Waving everything to one court making lower Judges mad my friends told me not to get the judge upset. One time wanting to go to court Charles Williams tried to get me upset I was in a holding tank sitting down I told Charles Williams he was not smart enough to have shells in his gun there were nine people in there with me Charles Williams place his gun to my head I could the shells in it. I told him he did not have the balls to pull the trigger while I am still here by the grace of God and my friend Charles Williams I never had a bad thing to say him because I push him his limit. I would call the DA my lawyer when I needed talk to some one about my case he tell me everything will be alright where he was a cousin to me. I would receive Six months country time and five probation thank you for hearing me and holy kiss of truth unto you from Roy.
  5. God of nothing, God of something, and God of everything first Life is real believe or not! 03-01-2013 As I think things that I must handle in the breath I live I must handle things about me that I do not like because I little like you wanting to hide my dark side where no one see the deep things of my inner self. I open up darkest things to others hoping that I get passed the things I do not want you to see like me hiding afraid that they might come for and do things I can not handle. Every body has things that they can not faced I know that they say there nothing to fear but fear itself while shacking in their bones. One two three I smell the sound of things that I am afraid of the guy who seems to be seeing with his ears yes that young that I saw riding a bike around town and that black could not see. But I bet he knew the color of darkness was not black like so many people think but to see the color black there must be light. So sure darkness is not black it would be some that light would not no reflection at all just like the color we think the sky is but thanks to the Tyndall illusion red looks blue. This shows what you think may not be true just hearing voices like I heard all my life when I stand under a phone line my body can turn in to sounds above me. But when I thought about those sounds were coming from the phone above my head but what the sounds coming from my inner self me thinking as if it was hearable. Now I claim it was God but is that so impossible just because God creative my world that I believe that in maybe you do not agree with my believe so what it not your belief. You make up the things that you want to believe in and I will decide the things I want to make my own will that the way I see it. My Atheist side has no belief while my Christian believes in a God that creative everything as pure love My spiritual side believes in a God while my Atheist claims nothing came from God which my fleshly side. They fight one another until I die one day which hopes that I evolve into something new with love and a kiss of truth unto you from Roy.
  6. year2027

    life

    God of nothing, God of something, and God of everything first Some people think that is Pride of self that holds people back 02-23-2013 There is pride of pass things that we can not handle the things we hide from ourself that is what Christ wanted to free us from it is the pride that is happen now but all types of pride we live in. That is why I have nurses coming to my door to free me from some I can not handle yes I do not like the mental health field but I personal need a safe way to get help. Now that me not you and you might not be ready to removed that pride in yourself yet but I believe I am ready. Let me tell about some of things I did in my younger years I would hide under the coffee table and sleep when I got upset my mother never understood this but I did it and still to this very day. I begin about the time of first grade at times I would hit my head when no one was watching but for some I outgrowth that part of it my mother never knew I was hitting my head until my early teens. In a Christian Bible camp the staff caught me hitting my head on the bean above me I guess there was no coffee table to hide under from things I could not handle. Later in high school I was caught cutting on my self because I had outgrowth hitting mostly and I had a girl friend that did it too. I would write her name in blood on me but she was into it too alone putting a cigarette out on her arm she always hide the marks from it. I never did I had other friends that were into it also but they hide their marks also. My mother made me talk to Rev Mike Bell about but he never help my feeling about wanting to cut myself. Later I went in the US army because my problem was not handle yet and I had a new girl friend I wrote her name in blood again not as big but I got caught anyway. Me and her were caught together in the female of Basic Training I would see her reporting to the Captain in line he would tell me my girl friend just trow up in his trash can or something like that. I was order to see Mental heath of the army so I went and I saw a Specialist 5 but she said she was going to get her her adviser to talk to me the captain. They were flying the head men a Colonel to talk to me but the next thing I wanting to get my papers home and before the Colonel could get here I was home. I wanted to leave that place I sure they known something but I was never told I received a 635 discharge from the US Army maybe if they would of told what they found things might been different for me. Maybe I would got a little help sooner at least I would have known but the army did not tell me a thing about their diagnose. Thank you for letting me tell you the things I been thought today I not cutting on my self nor hitting my head on anything but I find my hiding under my Coffee Table when things get to me with love of truth and a holy kiss of friendship unto you from Roy.
  7. year2027

    life

    God of nothing, God of something, and God of everything first I am feeling good having Home Care is woking for me 2-20-2013 I am not saying it will work for you but is helping me the nurses I met are dear to me just everyday people working for the best outcome for me. Sense I had them I been happier than before and my doctor is working for me for the best care he knows too working together with home care I sure I will get the best care I need. Now I not saying to do not get down low with my feelings I think about things I sure not but the nurse would see it and get me help. Like the time my cable was not working not because anything I did but the wire was too old but it been replaced and working fine today. It was right around Christmas time when that happen to me I got upset and thing I known because I wrote Email the White House that got police to my door checking on my well fair because I was not taking my medicate like ask by my doctor. I hide in my home not answer the door because the things that happen to me in about 2002 AD where they tired me to a bed when I told them my mother was in the hospital for cancer. To cut a story short the person that I was using to help me deal with things in my past put a hold on me because I believed she was breaking the rules between patient and doctor. The reason I believe this was because the office persons where winking at me that day I only told her that I believe I was God gift to woman in a round way. She should seem right the lie I told her so I wrote the board of mental health about what happen to me so she put a mental warrant on me. A Central State Mental Health doctor told they did more harm than good because he was a Louisville doctor I never trusted mental doctors again until I met the one I have today. I went to my Elizabeth-town mental for a few months which was about six. Then I only went part time to my Louisville Medical doctor because it to must trouble to make a appointment for me. So from 2004 AD until 2008 AD I did not see a doctor at all must of the time and I would walk out of many hospitals because the things happen to me. I did not write this for you to get mad at some mental health places so you would understand me because everybody is not the same and the fears she goes my be worse than the things I went through. So I for gave her a long time ago it blesses me that I got the things I have good friends, good nurses, good doctors, and good office staff. So today I am not hiding from life itself I seeing a brighter day than before with my nurses that could put a mental warrant alone my doctor that could put a mental warrant because he also has degree in mental health alone with his degree in medicate. I fear nothing because I trust my doctor and my nurses to do the right thing for my hearth because if they did is get would be for me. Thank you my friends with the love of God unto them that believe in it and the love of mankind unto the ones who do not with a holy kiss unto which just is a hand shack of friendship from me Roy known as year2027.
  8. nothing first thanks Preacher Mr Preacher I sorry I broke your Freedom of Speech it was not planed I just do not agree with your views I guss you broke mine too but does make right so we are both wrong with love of nothing and holy kiss of something from Roy
  9. year2027

    life

    God of nothing, God of something, and God of everything first Broken people because everybody is broken in way or another 02-01-2013 Have you met a person that did not have hang ups in their life we all have some things in our life that we wish we did not. The person that drinks their life away making death come faster than it could or a person that eats to must food we all have them things could bring a early death. Look at the person that stress will bring an early death to be the best they can. When I was in the Christian churches I was so hateful to people I did not agree with their way of life and I believe I was loving to judge to hate others because they have choose to be gay, atheist, or anything different than what I believe. In the Way Ministry I hated those churches as taught by the Way Ministry because the those Christian churches hated them. Later I was trowed out of the Way Ministry like a old shoe because I believe they was wrong than I join a cult Grease Spot Cafe a group on a board on hating the Way Ministry. To hate for any reason is devilish and wrong the full circle I travel in taught me the wrong of hate. Today I see how wrong I was but without the Christian churches hates I would not understand what love is, without the Way Ministry hates I would not come more about loving my brother and without Grease Spot Cafe hates to would see the full circle of hate because we all have some things we hate which is not love. When I was a young child my first grade I .... on another child but the teacher made me sat on her lap as she show me a desk with candy in it. Did she do me wrong I not sure because I block out must of younger years but I whether think to forgive her in move on because if she did what made her. Everything has a cause and outcome from the things they had happen to them years later I hang ups with woman my friend told me I never learn how to play the game without buying their time but even that when I try some sexual things I get nerves. A friend told me to write my life story trying to help me deal with the thing that happen to me in my life about going to the speech in first grade because what others children I were saying to me. The Speech teacher had to comfort me before she could try to help me with what ever was hurting me. The other children may of saw me as my first as my teacher's pet I do not know and at this point I do not care because they had their reason and I had mine. Before my mother die in 2005 I try to get help from Elizabeth-town Medical Health place that I was banned from their place a Louisville Medical Health doctor told they did more harm than good. I will never let any place get control over me because what she did I spent a lot trying to hold my breath with my mouth open recorded it on a Webcam to see if I could really do it. My friend talk me into ending it after he saw that I could harm myself even trying so I stop about my the time of mother death. One person might think I am mad for even trying but I am no dog and I not going to treaded like a dog they made me feel like I was of no value. Let me tell you a little what she did when my my mother was in the hospital getting cancer removed cancer from her body she put a mental hold on me because I she believe was breaking patient right to keep it personal and I try to report her. She was getting everything out of context wanting a date for everything as if she was getting high off every word. I wanted help to deal with the things but she no help to me but what made her the way she was I can only pray she gets help. Today I am leaning how to handle by writing my feeling as I talk with my friends about the things that happen to me. I believe the only way I am going to handle the things that happen to me was the way I help my mother making peace with her brother sins. On 1-11-2013 I ask my doctor to help me because things were getting out of my control my landlord was making me feel like I had no hope taking it out of my control putting in the hand of some one other than me. He sign me up for home care taking the control over my health care and I ask the nurse to send out Social Service to my house to deal with landlord for me because the nurses will be there if I have any signs of needing help. I hoping the Social Service person will help me deal with my landlord because that more than I can handle at this moment. So today I am doing fine while I am still dealing with this my landlord is better toward me but I do want anybody upsetting my landlord because she her problems too which more the cause we do the things we do not want to do. Everybody is human me and everybody est that just part of life we all have things that get our top off the pot. I thank everybody that has been part of this and anything other because this life up and downs with the love of God toward us and an holy kiss of truth unto all whether we believe in God or not because truth gave us the right to make up own mind from Roy.
  10. Nothing first The Paths we must travel in 12-16-2012 I have began this note unto you my friends not putting God first because is above word so I label him nothing making him not an ideal but something I do not understand yet. Jesus was a man that became nothing Christ is just the label we use like God is just a label like spiritual kind is so I use nothing like apostle Paul did when he talk about our faith as the unnamed god. So God first I use nothing first it is truthful way of telling the truth because some people do not believe in all the hog wash labels we use. We will because star dust because where all things begin their life in the body makes dust we call it seed and it decays into dust so we are dust and we shall be dust again. Now I was ready to see if my believe was in vain but I decided stay in the form I am but one day I will no choice on this thing I will either evolve into something new or go back to form something other that which I am. There are many possibility that I will become but a new one is the one I want because no one want to die completely. Changes is possibility we must deal with its one of the many possibility we must deal with because our life the thing that us what we are is in many parts. The dust that decays into itself and the thing that has given it life in the first place and their the sounds that came from our us being here in the first place others I could name more than these. Have you heard a sound that was creative on radio waves in 60's or pictures of someone who has been dead for years there are many possible. We face things that us want to give up but hopefully we get pass while I had another one last month until just the other day but I have overcome for most part. Scientology that mankind evolve from one woman but I do see it has possibility with us coming out the ocean I not saying there not evolving has part of it but I do see us evolving from place but it happen every where at once. That proves to me it was one but many unless it was a special thing only place and one time. Science claim that 95% percent of our DNA is trash cells that we do need them but they are there anyway I think they do not understand as must they claim. To me that is small part of our body DNA that they have even a ideal what are for and what purpose they stand for in the first place. Thank you with love of nothing which is what claim to be God and a holy kiss of star dust unto all of you the readers from Roy.
  11. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/education/20teacher.html Teacher With Bible Divides Ohio Town By IAN URBINA Published: January 19, 2010 MOUNT VERNON, Ohio — Most people in this quiet all-American town describe themselves as devoutly Christian, but even here they are deeply divided over what should happen to John Freshwater. Mr. Freshwater, an eighth-grade public school science teacher, is accused of burning a cross onto the arms of at least two students and teaching creationism, charges he says have been fabricated because he refused an order by his principal to remove a Bible from his desk. After an investigation, school officials notified Mr. Freshwater in June 2008 of their intent to fire him, but he asked for a pre-termination hearing, which has lasted more than a year and cost the school board more than a half-million dollars
  12. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/20/opinion/mr-and-mrs-jesus-christ.html?_r=2 Mr. and Mrs. Jesus Christ? By JAMES MARTIN AT an academic conference in Rome on Tuesday, Karen L. King, a church historian at Harvard Divinity School, presented a finding that, according to some reports, threatened to overturn what we know about Jesus, as well as the tradition of priestly celibacy. She identified a small fragment of fourth-century papyrus that includes the words, Jesus said to them, My wife... Another clause appears to say, she will be able to be my disciple. Some experts have concluded that the manuscript, written in Coptic, is authentic. But does this mean that Jesus was married? Probably not. And will this fascinating new discovery make this Jesuit priest want to rush out and get married? No.
  13. "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." 1 Corinthians 1:27-31, KJV "Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;" 1 Corinthians 3:21, KJV "And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" 1 Corinthians 4:6-7, KJV "For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!" 1 Corinthians 9:16, KJV "But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth . . . Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." 1 Corinthians 10:17-18, 31, KJV "For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake." 2 Corinthians 4:5, KJV "But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." 2 Corinthians 10:17, KJV "Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me." 2 Corinthians 12:5-6, KJV "Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another." Galatians 5:26, KJV "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14, KJV "Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ." 1 Thessalonians 2:6, KJV "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17, KJV "How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?" Job 25:6, KJV "But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people." Psalms 22:6, KJV my KJV has it got it 1990 from Steve Spenseer I will not give King glory when kown better
  14. God first thanks Ham and waysider I person think all things should that are place in the doctrine belong in "about the Way" what is doctrine anyway but the bible did not the Way Minisry push was the bible your verion of it the Way says nothing but the bible which is God's scripture from Genesis to Revelation but they are wrong because I have prove them by the Bible opening statement "To the most high and mightie Prince, James by the grace of God King of Great Britaine, France and Ireland,........" God is supose to get the glory not some man with love and a holy kiss Roy
  15. God first thanks everybody Is Doctrinal a place to send post you do not agree with to hide someone that does not think like you want them to think someobe that thinks outside your box of what you think is right someone who tells the truth no matter whether it hurts them is there no truth on this board was there ever if so the Way Minisry has won because that is the way I feel right now Did Grease Spot cafe sale out to the Way Minisry? with love and a holy kiss Roy
  16. God first this should be Doctrinal area
  17. God first from another board Did Pre-Gospel Christians Believe Judas Betrayed Jesus? In the period when the Gospels were being written, rival traditions existed about Judas, a negative image in the communities where the canonical Gospels originated, and a positive image within some other communities such as Paul's circle, the Q community and the proponents of the Gospel of Peter. Given the priority of Paul and Q, and the ambiguity as to motive in Mark, this evidence strongly suggests to me that Judas did not originally have a negative reputation, and the hostility towards him was a subsequent development. By Gary Greenberg President of the Biblical Archaeology Society of New York April 2010 As one moves through the Gospels in the order of creation (Mark, Matthew, Luke and John) the image of Judas Iscariot, the alleged betrayer of Jesus, becomes increasingly negative. In Mark, no motive is given for why Judas went to see the chief priests.2 Although the priests offer Judas money it appears to be an afterthought, the offer coming only after Judas agreed to aid the priests. In Matthew, who used Mark as a source, Judas specifically asks for a reward in return for helping the priests.3 In Luke, who also used Mark as a source, we are told that Satan entered into Judas and that led him to go to the priests.4 Luke, however, is a little vague about who raised the issue of money, although money enters into the decision to aid the priests. In John, not only does Satan enter into Judas5 we are also told that Judas was a thief who stole from the Apostles.6 However, John makes no specific mention of Judas getting any money from the priests. Despite this march of hostility towards Judas (and the Jews) there is some evidence that among the earliest Christians Judas did not have a negative reputation and was not seen as an evil figure. In this paper I want to look at a few text sources that suggest that among the pre-Gospel Christians Judas was seen as an Apostle in good standing after the death of Jesus. These include Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, a passage from Q, and a verse from the Gospel of Peter. I will examine all of these below. First, however, we need to look at the nature of the Greek word used by the Gospels to indicate that Judas "betrayed" Jesus. That word is paradidomi. Its primary meaning is "to give or hand over to another."7 The word appears in the New Testament just over 120 times, 44 of those occasions in connection with Judas.8 When not used in connection with Judas, the term is normally translated in some form connected to its primary meaning of "hand over." When the word is translated in connection with Judas, it is always rendered as "betray." It is generally accepted among scholars that "betray" is a proper secondary meaning of paradidomi and it is not hard to see how, in a sarcastic manner, the word can take on the more negative connotation of "betrayal." But there is some question as to whether this word had that negative sense prior to its Gospel usage. William Klassen, a New Testament scholar who has attempted to rehabilitate Judas' reputation, has argued that there is no evidence that paradidomi ever had the meaning of "betray" or "treachery" in the first century and that no such usage is known prior to the writing of the Gospels.9 His analysis includes a review of the entry in Liddell and Scott's Lexicon, a primary reference tool in Greek word studies. Although the Lexicon gives "betray" as a secondary usage and gives examples in classical literature for such usage, Klassen examines those citations and argues that those usages have no connection to the concept of "betray" or "treachery."10 He also notes the existence in first century literature of perfectly good Greek words for "betrayal," prodidomi and prodosia, and another good Greek word, prodotes, for "traitor" and gives examples.11 If Klassen is correct, then Judas was initially known as the one who "handed over" Jesus rather than the one who "betrayed" Jesus. This would require us to have some sort of scenario in which Judas would have been involved in handing over Jesus to the Jewish authorities without it initially being seen as a betrayal. I will address that issue after reviewing the textual evidence referred to above. Our earliest references to the character of Judas appear to be in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. Although he doesn't mention Judas by name he has two separate passages, 1 Cor 11:23 and 1 Cor 15:5, describing two separate events that both appear to refer to the character of Judas. Scholars date Paul's first letter to the members of the Corinthian church to about 56 C.E.,12 which would be about 10 to 20 years before the writing of the Gospel of Mark and 20 to 30 years after the death of Jesus. The letter suggests that not all Christians accepted Paul's claim to being an apostle and Paul defends his right to be called an apostle.13 We should also note, as evidenced in his letter to the Galatians in which he criticizes Peter, that Paul has no hesitation in calling out other Apostles for hypocrisy or failings.14 So, if Judas were a betrayer of Jesus, one would expect that Paul would have no hesitation in pointing out Judas's traitorous act, especially in a letter defending his own claim to an apostolic title. So what does he have to say in First Corinthians? The first implicit reference to Judas occurs at 1 Cor 11:23. Paul writes, in part, "For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread (emphasis added.)" Although Judas isn't mentioned by name, the context of Paul's remark is obviously the incident involving the actions of Judas as later described in the Gospels. The Greek word translated here as "betrayed" is paradedeto, a verb form of paradidomi. Technically, then, the sentence should be translated as "on the night when he was handed over" and then there should be a debate as to whether the word has the primary meaning of "hand over" or a possible secondary meaning of "betrayed." This is Paul's only apparent use of the word in all of his letters. Since the Gospel usage is later in time, and if, as Klassen argues, there is no earlier indication that paradidomi had the secondary sarcastic meaning, we cannot logically argue that the later usage should determine how to translate the earlier usage by Paul unless an earlier example of the secondary meaning in Greek usage is available. Now, it may be true that Paul had that secondary sense in mind but we don't know from this passage alone that he did have that view. We also have no reference point in Paul's other writings indicating that he had a negative understanding of Judas's actions or that he meant to use the Gospel sense as opposed to the primary meaning. In fact, it is quite remarkable that Paul actually omits Judas's name in referencing the action. Why didn't he say "handed over or betrayed" by Judas? If Judas were so closely associated with betraying Jesus one would expect the name and the act to be casually linked together. The absence of Judas's name at least raises a question as to whether Paul thought Judas committed a hostile act towards Jesus. This brings us to Paul's second passage that possibly evokes the character of Judas. In 1 Cor 15:5 Paul says that Jesus made a post-crucifixion appearance first to Cephas (i.e., Peter15) and then to "the Twelve", a reference to the twelve disciples as a group. While Judas isn't identified by name here, it is obvious that Paul is speaking of the original twelve disciples and not the later group of twelve that, according to the author of Acts, had added Matthias following the death of Judas.16 None of the Gospels report a post-Crucifixion appearance of Jesus to Judas. In Matthew, Judas dies before the resurrection.17 Luke specifically excludes Judas from the post-resurrection appearance of Jesus.18 Paul's indication of an appearance by Jesus to the "Twelve" contradicts both Mathew and Luke and strongly suggests that Judas had a good reputation after the crucifixion, at least until the time that Paul wrote this letter. Scholars have attempted to get around this problem by arguing that Paul used the term "the Twelve" in an institutional sense, referring to the Apostles as a collective entity, without regard to the absence of any members. The idea is that "the Twelve" was a nickname for the collective group of Apostles. In support of this viewpoint the scholars attempt to reconcile Paul's usage with the above-cited passage from Luke, who has an appearance only to the eleven disciples other than Judas. There are several problems with this argument against the idea that Paul's usage of "the Twelve" included Judas. First, it goes against what would be the expected understanding and plain meaning of "the Twelve." Second, this is the only time Paul uses this term in all of his writing, so we have no context within Paul's writings for assuming he had any understanding of "the Twelve" other than its plain meaning. Third, this is the only usage of "the Twelve" in the New Testament prior to the Gospels, so we have no other reference point, contemporary with or prior to Paul's usage, to guide us in understanding how Paul would have understood this term. Fourth, there is no evidence that any New Testament author used the term "the Twelve" in any understanding that didn't include all twelve disciples. (Acts 6:2 refers to "the Twelve" in a post-crucifixion setting but it still refers to a full complement of twelve disciples, with Matthias having replaced Judas.) Fifth, if Paul had a negative image of Judas, and having already referred earlier in the letter to the night Jesus was "handed over," one would expect him to be especially cautious about any terminology that would present Judas in a positive light. Given the importance Paul places on the sequence of appearances as a justification for his own status as an Apostle, even if he meant "the Twelve" in an intuitional sense, he would be expected to clarify the term by excluding Judas if he thought he had betrayed Jesus. While it is possible that Paul meant to use paradidomi in a negative sense and "the Twelve" in an institutional sense, we have no clear evidence that this is the case. If we give the words their plain meaning, however, as the addressees of the letter would probably have understood them, we have some evidence of a far less hostile view of Judas than present in the Gospel. Another early source of interest is Q, which, by definition, precedes Matthew and Luke, and which may have been written before Mark. Matt 19:28 and Luke 22:29-30 form a linked Q pair, but there is a subtle variation in how the two preserve the passage. Let's look at both versions of the text. "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man is seated on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt 19:28, emphasis added.) "and I confer on you, just as my Father has conferred on me, a kingdom,so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:29-30, emphasis added.) Note that in Matthew, Jesus promises "twelve" thrones to the disciples so that they will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel. In Luke's version, the word "twelve" is missing. He doesn't say how many thrones were promised to the twelve disciples, although he envisions rulers over the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke allows for someone other than Judas to sit on a twelfth throne. If Matthew represents the original version, it would mean that the Q community understood Jesus to be making a direct promise to Judas that in the coming kingdom of God he would sit on one of the twelve thrones and rule over one of the twelve tribes. This seems strikingly inconsistent with the idea that early Christians believed that Judas betrayed Jesus, especially when one considers that from the viewpoint of all four Gospel authors Jesus would have known from the beginning that Judas would betray him. Therefore, Jesus wouldn't have promised a throne to someone he knew would betray him. Luke, on the other hand, is less generous to Judas. Although the context still suggests that Jesus made a promise to all twelve disciples that they will rule in the coming Kingdom, Luke's version of the promise is ambiguous. By not stating how many thrones there would be, it can be argued that, in Luke, Jesus has not made a direct promise of a specific throne to Judas. Which version of the promise is more likely to represent the original Q text? That depends on the answer to the following question. Did Q originally specify "twelve" thrones causing Luke to drop the "twelve", making the promise vague with regard to Judas, or did Q originally not mention the number of thrones, causing Matthew to add in the number "twelve," for whatever reason, and create an ambiguity in the relationship between Jesus and Judas? While either option is theoretically possible, the likelihood that Matthew, who introduced the idea that Judas betrayed Jesus for a monetary reward, would change the Q quote so that it reflected a bad judgment by Jesus such that he would promise a throne to his future betrayer seems far less likely than the alternative, that Luke altered the quote to remove Judas from the equation. What is especially interesting about this Q passage is that the Q source has no Passion account and therefore includes no account of Judas's actions toward Jesus. If Judas had a negative image at the time Q appeared, why would the Q author have added in a promise to Judas that he would inherit one of the twelve thrones? Q and Paul both suggest an early trajectory in which all twelve of Jesus' chosen Apostles were considered disciples in good standing at the time that these texts were composed. Let me finish up with one final source, the Gospel of Peter. The Gospel of Peter had been widely circulated in Syria and apparently read as scripture in some churches.19 During the second century Christians were openly debating its authenticity.20 At about the end of the second century Bishop Serapion of Antioch barred its use in churches, apparently because it came to be seen as containing heretical claims about Jesus.21 Only fragments of this text survive and there is some debate over its date of composition. Most scholars would place it in the early second century.22 A few, however, have argued that it preceded all four Gospels.23 We needn't resolve that question here. Nowhere in the surviving portions of the Gospel of Peter does Judas appear by name, but the author does make an interesting observation about the twelve disciples. In the passage with which we are concerned, the text says that after the death of Jesus, But we twelve disciples of the Lord were weeping and sorrowful; and each one, sorrowful because of what had come to pass, departed to his home."29 Unlike Paul's reference to "the Twelve", which, theoretically, might be an institutional reference rather than a description of twelve specific individuals, the Gospel of Peter clearly describes the actions of twelve specific individuals, each of whom was upset by the crucifixion, and each going home to weep. All twelve are placed on an equal footing with regard to their behavior. The context is clear that the author refers to the original twelve disciples and there is not the slightest hint that Judas had a negative reputation. The passage implies that after the death of Jesus Judas remained one of the disciples in good standing with the others. We should note that the Gospel of Peter is extremely harsh towards the Jewish authorities and accuses the Jews directly of crucifying Jesus.24 So, we shouldn't expect the author of this Gospel to be especially friendly to someone who betrayed Jesus. Yet, if the author of the Gospel of Peter knew about Judas' reputation for betrayal why would he omit it from the description of the actions of the twelve disciples after the crucifixion? At the very least one would expect him to add a phrase such as "even Judas, who betrayed the Lord." Either he didn't know about the negative reputation of Judas or he didn't believe it because he had other information. If as some scholars suspect, the Gospel of Peter precedes the Gospel of Mark, then we have three independent pre-Gospel sources-Paul, Q, and the Gospel of Peter-suggesting that Judas did not have a negative reputation for betraying Jesus. If this Gospel dates to the late first or early second century, as most scholars suspect then, we have a long chronological arc encompassing perhaps a century or more after the crucifixion, through a large swath of the Christian community, overlapping the period during which the Gospels were written, in which Judas had not yet been associated with a betrayal of Jesus. This suggests that in the period when the Gospels were being written, rival traditions existed about Judas, a negative image in the communities where the canonical Gospels originated, and a positive image within some other communities such as Paul's circle, the Q community and the proponents of the Gospel of Peter. Given the priority of Paul and Q, and the ambiguity as to motive in Mark, this evidence strongly suggests to me that Judas did not originally have a negative reputation, and the hostility towards him was a subsequent development. This thesis leaves open the question of why Judas was associated with the Greek word paradidomi, i.e.,"to hand over," and why did its meaning among Christians shift from a neutral connotation to a derogatory one. Space prohibits any detailed examination of this issue. So I will briefly summarize the argument I made in my book The Judas Brief: Who Really Killed Jesus? (Continuum 2007.) The Gospel of John indicates that the Jewish authorities feared that the popularity of Jesus would lead to a military reaction against the Jewish people.25 The entrance of Jesus and his entourage into Jerusalem during a crowded holiday festival, possibly in the aftermath of an insurrection led by Barabbas, would have created a volatile situation that could lead to military intervention, riots, and many Jewish deaths. I suggest that the Jewish priests negotiated a three-way deal among Pilate, Jesus and the Jewish authorities and that Judas represented Jesus in the negotiations. The agreement initially held that Jesus would ensure that his followers remain quiet during the holiday by agreeing to be placed under house arrest with the politically influential Jewish priest Annas and that he would be released after the holiday ended.26 When Herod heard about this arrangement he was furious. He wanted Jesus dead27 and forced Pilate to execute Jesus by threatening to bring treason charges against the Governor for allowing an unauthorized person to claim kingship.28 Pilate relented and, despite Jewish pleas to honor the agreement, had Jesus crucified. Under this scenario, Judas became known as the one who handed over Jesus, and the description attached to him like an Homeric epithet, initially a neutral term, and then, by Gospel times, understood in a negative sarcastic manner. Notes: 1 All biblical citations are to the NRSV. 2 Mark 14:10. After Judas goes to the priests he is offered money, but he doesn't bring up the subject. The priests do, after Mark already agreed to work with them. 3 Matt 24:14-16. 4 Luke 22:3-5. Luke mentions an agreement with the priests to pay money but doesn't say who brought up the subject. 5 John 13:27. 6 John 12:6. 7 Liddell and Scott, s.v. "paradidomi." See also Strong's Enhanced Concordance, s.v., G3860. 8 William Klassen, Judas: Betrayer or friend of Jesus? (Minneapolis: Fortress, 1996), 51. 9 Klassen, 48. 10 Klassen, 47. 11 Klassen, 49. See also Liddell and Scott, s.v., "prodidomi," "prodosis," and "prodotos." 12 Raymond E. Brown, An Introduction to the New Testament (New York: ARBL/Doubleday, 12996), 511. 13 1 Cor 9. 14 Gal 2:11-14. 15 Paul refers to the disciple Peter as Cephas because that is actually the name by which the disciple was originally known. "Peter" derives from the Greek translation of the Aramaic word "cephas." The confusion comes from Matt 16:18, where Jesus gives the disciple Simon a nickname meaning "rock" and then says "upon this rock I will build this church." Jesus spoke Aramaic and would have used the Aramaic word for "rock", which is cephas. Matthew, however, wrote in Greek and uses the Greek word for rock, petros. 16 Acts 1:26. 17 Matt 27:5. 18 Luke 24:8, 36. 19 Raymond E. Brown, The Death of the Messiah: From Gethsemmane to the grave: A commentary on the Passion Narratives in the four Gospels (2 vols.) (New York: Doubleday, 1993), 1341. 20 Barrt D. Ehrman, B. D. Lost Christianities: The battle for scripture and the faiths we never knew (New York, Oxford University Press, 2003), 15. 21 Ehrman, Lost Christianities, 16. 22 See, for example, Bart D. Ehrman, Lost Scriptures: Books that did not make it into the New Testament (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003), 20, 32) 23 John Dominic Crossan, Who Killed Jesus?: Exposing the roots of anti-Semitism in the Gospel story of the death of Jesus (San Francisco: Harper Collins, 1996), 24, 26. 24 Brown Death,1318. 25 John 11:48. 26 John 18:13, 19-24 indicates that Jesus was placed under house arrest with Annas. 27 See Luke 13:31. 28 "From then on Pilate tried to release him, but the Jews cried out, 'If you release this man, you are no friend of the emperor. Everyone who claims to be a king sets himself against the emperor (John 19:12).'" I suggest that you should substitute "Herodians " (who were Jews) for "Jews" in this passage. 29 Brown Death, 1321.)
  18. http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611-Bible/1611-King-James-Bible-Introduction.php God first thanks waysider thank you my dear friend to the truth I am blessed my you thanks with love and a holy kiss Roy
  19. 1611 King James Bible Introduction To the most high and mightie Prince, James by the grace of God King of Great Britaine, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, &c. The translators of The Bible, wish Grace, Mercie, and Peace, through Jesus Christ our Lord. reat and manifold were the blessings (most dread Soveraigne) which Almighty GOD, the Father of all Mercies, bestowed upon us the people of ENGLAND, when first he sent your Majesties Royall person to rule and raigne over us. For whereas it was the expectation of many, who wished not well unto our ZION, that upon the setting of that bright Occidentall Starre Queene ELIZABETH of most happy memory, some thicke and palpable cloudes of darkenesse would so have overshadowed this land, that men should have bene in doubt which way they were to walke, and that it should hardly be knowen, who was to direct the unsetled State: the appearance of your MAJESTIE, as of the Sunne in his strength, instantly dispelled those supposed and surmised mists, and gave unto all that were well affected, exceeding cause of comfort; especially when we beheld the government established in your HIGHNESSE, and your hopefull Seed, by an undoubted Title, and this also accompanied with Peace and tranquillitie, at home and abroad. But amongst all our Joyes, there was no one that more filled our hearts, then the blessed continuance of the Preaching of GODS sacred word amongst us, which is that inestimable treasure, which excelleth all the riches of the earth, because the fruit thereof extendeth it selfe, not onely to the time spent in this transitory world, but directeth and disposeth men unto that Eternall happinesse which is above in Heaven. Then, not to suffer this to fall to the ground, but rather to take it up, and to continue it in that state, wherein the famous predecessour of your HIGHNESSE did leave it; Nay, to goe forward with the confidence and resolution of a man in maintaining the trueth of CHRIST, and propagating it farre and neere, is that which hath so bound and firmely knit the hearts of all your MAJESTIES loyall and Religious people unto you, that your very Name is precious among them, their eye doeth behold you with comfort, and they blesse you in their hearts, as that sanctified person, who under GOD, is the immediate authour of their true happinesse. And this their contentment doeth not diminish or decay, but every day increaseth and taketh strength, when they observe that the zeale of your Majestie towards the house of GOD, doth not slacke or goe backward, but is more and more kindled, manifesting it selfe abroad in the furthest parts of Christendome, by writing in defence of the Trueth, (which hath given such a blow unto that man of Sinne, as will not be healed) and every day at home, by Religious and learned discourse, by frequenting the house of GOD, by hearing the word preached, by cherishing the teachers therof, by caring for the Church as a most tender and loving nourcing Father. There are infinite arguments of this right Christian and Religious affection in your MAJESTIE: but none is more forcible to declare it to others, then the vehement and perpetuated desire of the accomplishing and publishing of this Worke, which now with all humilitie we present unto your MAJESTIE. For when your Highnesse had once out of deepe judgment apprehended, how convenient it was, That out of the Originall sacred tongues, together with comparing of the labours, both in our owne and other forreigne Languages, of many worthy men who went before us, there should be one more exact Translation of the holy Scriptures into the English tongue; your MAJESTIE did never desist, to urge and to excite those to whom it was commended, that the worke might be hastened, and that the businesse might be expedited in so decent a maner, as a matter of such importance might justly require. And now at last, by the Mercy of GOD, and the continuance of our Labours, it being brought unto such a conclusion, as that we have great hope that the Church of England shall reape good fruit thereby; we hold it our duety to offer it to your MAJESTIE, not onely as to our King and Soveraigne, but as to the principall moover and Author of the Worke. Humbly craving of your most Sacred Majestie, that since things of this quality have ever bene subject to the censures of ill meaning and discontented persons, it may receive approbation and Patronage from so learned and judicious a Prince as your Highnesse is, whose allowance and acceptance of our Labours, shall more honour us and incourage us, then all the calumniations and hard interpretations of other men shall dismay us. So that, if on the one side we shall be traduced by Popish persons at home or abroad, who therefore will maligne us, because we are poore Instruments to make GODS holy Trueth to be yet more and more knowen unto the people, whom they desire still to keepe in ignorance and darknesse: or if on the other side, we shall be maligned by selfe-conceited brethren, who runne their owne wayes, and give liking unto nothing but what is framed by themselves, and hammered on their Anvile; we may rest secure, supported within by the trueth and innocencie of a good conscience, having walked the wayes of simplicitie and integritie, as before the Lord; And sustained without, by the powerfull Protection of your Majesties grace and favour, which will ever give countenance to honest and Christian endevours, against bitter censures, and uncharitable imputations. The LORD of Heaven and earth blesse your Majestie with many and happy dayes, that as his Heavenly hand hath enriched your Highnesse with many singular, and extraordinary Graces; so you may be the wonder of the world in this later age, for happinesse and true felicitie, to the honour of that Great GOD, and the good of his Church, through JESUS CHRIST our Lord and onely Saviour. eale to promote the common good, whether it be by devising any thing our selves, or revising that which hath bene laboured by others, deserveth certainly much respect and esteeme, but yet findeth but cold intertainment in the world. It is welcommed with suspicion in stead of love, and with emulation in stead of thankes: and if there be any hole left for cavill to enter, (and cavill, if it doe not finde a hole, will make one) it is sure to bee misconstrued, and in danger to be condemned. This will easily be granted by as many as know story, or have any experience. For, was there ever any thing projected, that savoured any way of newnesse or renewing, but the same endured many a storme of gaine-saying, or opposition? A man would thinke that Civilitie, holesome Lawes, learning and eloquence, Synods, and Church-maintenance, (that we speake of no more things of this kinde) should be as safe as a Sanctuary, and ll out of shot, as they say, that no man would lift up the heele, no, nor dogge moove his tongue against the motioners of them. For by the first, we are distinguished from bruit-beasts led with sensualitie: By the second, we are bridled and restrained from outragious behaviour, and from doing of injuries, whether by fraud or by violence: By the third, we are enabled to informe and reforme others, by the light and feeling that we have attained unto our selves: Briefly, by the fourth being brought together to a parle face to face, we sooner compose our differences then by writings, which are endlesse: And lastly, that the Church be sufficiently provided for, is so agreeable to good reason and conscience, that those mothers are holden to be lesse cruell, that kill their children assoone as they are borne, then those noursing fathers and mothers (wheresoever they be) that withdraw from them who hang upon their breasts (and upon whose breasts againe themselves do hang to receive the Spirituall and sincere milke of the word) livelyhood and support fit for their estates. Thus it is apparent, that these things which we speake of, are of most necessary use, and therefore, that none, either without absurditie can speake against them, or without note of wickednesse can spurne against them. Yet for all that, the learned know that certaine worthy men have bene brought to untimely death for none other fault, but for seeking to reduce their Countrey-men to good order and discipline: and that in some Common-weales it was made a capitall crime, once to motion the making of a new Law for the abrogating of an old, though the same were most pernicious: And that certaine, which would be counted pillars of the State, and paternes of Vertue and Prudence, could not be brought for a long time to give way to good Letters and refined speech, but bare themselves as averse from them, as from rocks or boxes of poison: And fourthly, that hee was no babe, but a great clearke, that gave foorth (and in writing to remaine to posteritie) in passion peradventure, but yet he gave foorth, that hee had not seene any profit to come by any Synode, or meeting of the Clergie, but rather the contrary: And lastly, against Church-maintenance and allowance, in such sort, as the Embassadors and messengers of the great King of Kings should be furnished, it is not unknowen what a fiction or fable (so it is esteemed, and for no better by the reporter himselfe, though superstitious) was devised; Namely, that at such time as the professours and teachers of Christianitie in the Church of Rome, then a true Church, were liberally endowed, a voyce forsooth was heard from heaven, saying; Now is poison poured down into the Church, &c. Thus not only as oft as we speake, as one saith, but also as oft as we do any thing of note or consequence, we subject our selves to every ones censure, and happy is he that is least tossed upon tongues; for utterly to escape the snatch of them it is impossible. If any man conceit, that this is the lot and portion of the meaner sort onely, and that Princes are priviledged by their high estate, he is deceived. As the sword devoureth aswell one as the other, as it is in Samuel; nay as the great Commander charged his souldiers in a certaine battell, to strike at no part of the enemie, but at the face; And as the King of Syria commanded his chiefe Captaines to fight neither with small nor great, save onely against the King of Israel: so it is too true, that Envie striketh most spitefully at the fairest, and at the chiefest. David was a worthy Prince, and no man to be compared to him for his first deedes, and yet for as worthy an acte as ever he did (even for bringing backe the Arke of God in solemnitie) he was scorned and scoffed at by his owne wife. Solomon was greater then David, though not in vertue, yet in power: and by his power and wisdome he built a Temple to the LORD, such a one was the glory of the land of Israel, and the wonder of the whole world. But was that his magnificence liked of by all? We doubt of it. Otherwise, why doe they lay it in his sonnes dish, and call unto him for ll easing of the burden, Make, say they, the grievous servitude of thy father, and his sore yoke, lighter. Belike he had charged them with some levies, and troubled them with some cariages; Hereupon they raise up a tragedie, and wish in their heart the Temple had never bene built. So hard a thing it is to please all, even when we please God best, and doe seeke to approve our selves to every ones conscience. If wee will descend to later times, wee shall finde many the like examples of such kind, or rather unkind acceptance. The first Romane Emperour did never doe a more pleasing deed to the learned, nor more profitable to posteritie, for conserving the record of times in true supputation; then when he corrected the Calender, and ordered the yeere according to the course of the Sunne: and yet this was imputed to him for noveltie, and arrogancie, and procured to him great obloquie. So the first Christened Emperour (at the leastwise that openly professed the faith himselfe, and allowed others to doe the like) for strengthening the Empire at his great charges, and providing for the Church, as he did, got for his labour the name Pupillus, as who would say, a wastefull Prince, that had neede of a Guardian, or overseer. So the best Christened Emperour, for the love that he bare unto peace, thereby to enrich both himselfe and his subjects, and because he did not seeke warre but find it, was judged to be no man at armes, (though in deed he excelled in feates of chivalrie, and shewed so much when he was provoked) and condemned for giving himselfe to his ease, and to his pleasure. To be short, the most learned Emperour of former times, (at the least, the greatest politician) what thanks had he for cutting off the superfluities of the lawes, and digesting them into some order and method? This, that he hath been blotted by some to bee an Epitomist, that is, one that extinguished worthy whole volumes, to bring his abridgements into request. This is the measure that hath been rendred to excellent Princes in former times, even, Cum benè facerent, malè audire, For their good deedes to be evill spoken of. Neither is there any likelihood, that envie and malignitie died, and were buried with the ancient. No, no, the reproofe of Moses taketh hold of most ages; You are risen up in your fathers stead, an increase of sinfull men. What is that that hath been done? that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the Sunne, saith the wiseman: and S. Steven, As your fathers did, so doe you. This, and more to this purpose, His Majestie that now reigneth (and long, and long may he reigne, and his offspring for ever, Himselfe and children, and childrens children alwayes) knew full well, according to the singular wisdome given unto him by God, and the rare learning and experience that he hath attained unto; namely that whosoever attempteth any thing for the publike (specially if it pertaine to Religion, and to the opening and clearing of the word of God) the same setteth himselfe upon a stage to be glouted upon by every evil eye, yea, he casteth himselfe headlong upon pikes, to be gored by every sharpe tongue. For he that medleth with mens Religion in any part, medleth with their custome, nay, with their freehold; and though they finde no content in that which they have, yet they cannot abide to heare of altering. Notwithstanding his Royall heart was not daunted or discouraged for this or that colour, but stood resolute, as a statue immoveable, and an anvile not easie to be beaten into plates, as one sayth; he knew who had chosen him to be a Souldier, or rather a Captaine, and being assured that the course which he intended made much for the glory of God, & the building up of his Church, he would not suffer it to be broken off for whatsoever speaches or practises. It doth certainely belong unto Kings, yea, it doth specially belong unto them, to have care of Religion, yea, to know it aright, yea, to professe it zealously, yea to promote it to the uttermost of their power. This is their glory before all nations which meane well, and this will bring unto them a farre most excellent weight of glory in the day of the Lord Jesus. For the Scripture saith not in vaine, Them that honor me, I will honor, neither was it a vaine word that Eusebius delivered long agoe, that pietie towards God was the weapon, and the onely weapon that both preserved Constantines person, and avenged him of his enemies. But now what pietie without trueth? what trueth (what saving trueth) without the word of God? what word of God (whereof we may be sure) without the Scripture? The Scriptures we are commanded to search. Joh. 5.39. Esa. 8.20. They are commended that searched & studied them. Act. 17.11. and 8.28, 29. They are reproved that were unskilful in them, or slow to beleeve them. Mat. 22.29. Luk. 24.25. They can make us wise unto salvation. 2. Tim. 3.15. If we be ignorant, they will instruct us; if out of the way, they will bring us home; if out of order, they will reforme us, if in heavines, comfort us; if dull, quicken us; if colde, inflame us. Tolle, lege; Tolle, lege, Take up and read, take up and read the Scriptures, (for unto them was the direction) it was said unto S. Augustine by a supernaturall voyce. Whatsoevar is in the Scriptures, beleeve me, saith the same S. Augustine, is high and divine; there is verily trueth, and a doctrine most fit for the refreshing and renewing of mens mindes, and truely so tempered, that every one may draw from thence that which is sufficient for him, if hee come to draw with a devout and pious minde, as true Religion requireth. Thus S. Augustine. And S. Jerome: Ana scripturas, & amabit te sapientia &c. Love the Scriptures, and wisedome will love thee. And S. Cyrill against Julian; Even boyes that are bred up in the Scriptures, become most religious, &c. But what mention wee three or foure uses of the Scripture, whereas whatsoever is to be beleeved or practised, or hoped for, is contained in them? or three or foure sentences of the Fathers, since whosoever is worthy of the name of a Father, from Christs time downeward, hath likewise written not onely of the riches, but also of the perfection of the Scripture? I adore the fulnesse of the Scripture, saith Tertullian against Hermogenes. And againe, to Apelles an Heretike of the like stampe, he saith; I doe not admit that which thou bringest in (or concludest) of thine owne (head or store, de tuo) without Scripture. So Saint Justin Martyr before him; Wee must know by all meanes, saith hee, that it is not lawfull (or possible) to learne (any thing) of God or of right pietie, save onely out of the Prophets, who teach us by divine inspiration. So Saint Basill after Tertullian, It is a manifest falling away from the Faith, and a fault of presumption, either to reject any of those things that are written, or to bring in (upon the head of them, ) any of those things that are not written. Wee omit to cite to the same effect, S. Cyrill B. of Jerusalem in his 4. Cataches. Saint Jerome against Heludius, Saint Augustine in his 3. booke against the letters of Petilian, and in very many other places of his workes. Also we forebeare to descend to latter Fathers, because wee will not wearie the reader. The Scriptures then being acknowledged to bee so full and so perfect, how can wee excuse our selves of negligence, if we doe not studie them, of curiositie, if we be not content with them? Men talke much of , how many sweete and goodly things it had hanging on it; of the Philosphers stone, that it turneth copper into gold; of Cornu-copia, that it had all things necessary for foode in it; of Panaces the herbe, that it was good for all diseases; of Catholicon the drugge, that is in stead of all purges; of Vulcans armour, that is was an armour of proofe against all thrusts, and all blowes, &c. Well, that which they falsly or vainely attributed to these things for bodily good, wee may justly and with full measure ascribe unto the Scripture, for spirituall. It is not onely an armour, but also a whole armorie of weapons, both offensive, and defensive; whereby we may save our selves and put the enemie to flight. It is not an herbe, but a tree, or rather a whole paradise of trees of life, which bring foorth fruit every moneth, and the fruit thereof is for meate, and the leaves for medicine. It is not a pot of Manna, or a cruse of oyle, which were for memorie only, or for a meales meate or two, but as it were a showre of heavenly bread sufficient for a whole host, be it never so great; and as it were a whole cellar full of oyle vessels; whereby all our necessities may be provided for, and our debts discharged. In a word, it is a Panary of holesome foode, against fenowed traditions; a Physions-shop (Saint Basill calleth it) of preservatives against poisoned heresies; a Pandect of profitable lawes, against rebellious spirits; a treasurie of most costly jewels, against beggarly rudiments; Finally a fountaine of most pure water springing up unto everlasting life. And what marvaile? The originall thereof being from heaven, not from earth; the authour being God, not man; the enditer, the holy spirit, not the wit of the Apostles or Prophets; the Pen-men such as were sanctified from the wombe, and endewed with a principall portion of Gods spirit; the matter, veritie, pietie, puritie, uprightnesse; the forme, Gods word, Gods testimonie, Gods oracles, the word of trueth, the word of salvation, &c. the effects, light of understanding, stablenesse of persuasion, repentance from dead workes, newnesse of life, holinesse, peace, joy in the holy Ghost; lastly, the end and reward of the studie thereof, fellowship with the Saints, participation of the heavenly nature, fruition of an inheritance immortall, undefiled, and that never shall fade away: Happie is the man that delighteth in the Scripture, and thrise happie that meditateth in it day and night. But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand? How shall they understand that which is kept close in an unknowen tongue? as it is written, Except I know the power of the voyce, I shall be to him that speaketh, a Barbarian, and he that speaketh, shalbe a Barbarian to me. The Apostle excepteth no tongue, not Hebrewe the ancientest, not Greeke the most copious, not Latine the finest. Nature taught a naturall man to confesse, that all of us in those tongues which wee doe not understand, are plainely deafe; wee may turne the deafe eare unto them. The Scythian counted the Athenian, whom he did not understand, barbarous: so the Romane did the Syrian, and the Jew, (even S. Jerome himselfe calleth the Hebrew tongue barbarous, belike because it was strange to so many) so the Emperour of Constantinople calleth the Latine tongue, barbarous, though Pope Nicolas do storme at it: so the Jewes long before Christ, called all other nations, Lognazim, which is little better then barbarous. Therefore as one complaineth, that alwayes in the Senate of Rome, there was one or other that called for an interpreter: so lest the Church be driven to the like exigent, it is necessary to have translations in a readinesse. Translation it is that openeth the window, to let in the light; that breaketh the shell, that we may eat the kernel; that putteth aside the curtaine, that we may looke into the most Holy place; that remooveth the cover of the well, that wee may come by the water, even as Jacob rolled away the stone from the mouth of the well, by which meanes the flockes of Laban were watered. Indeede without translation into the vulgar tongue, the unlearned are but like children at Jacobs well (which was deepe) without a bucket or some thing to draw with: or as that person mentioned by Esau, to whom when a sealed booke was delivered, with this motion, Reade this, I pray thee, hee was faine to make this answere, I cannot, for it is sealed. While God would be knowen onely in Jacob, and have his Name great in Israel, and in none other place, while the dew lay on Gideons fleece onely, and all the earth besides was drie; then for one and the same people, which spake all of them the language of Canaan, that is, Hebrewe, one and the same originall in Hebrew was sufficient. But when the fulnesse of time drew neere, that the Sunne of righteousnesse, the Sonne of God should come into the world, whom God ordeined to be a reconciliation through faith in his blood, not of the Jew onely, but also of the Greeke, yea, of all them that were scattered abroad; then loe, it pleased the Lord to stirre up the spirit of a Greeke Prince (Greeke for descent and language) even of Ptolome Philadelph King of Egypt, to procure the translating of the Booke of God out of Hebrew into Greeke. This is the translation of the Seventie Interpreters, commonly so called, which prepared the way for our Saviour among the Gentiles by written preaching, as Saint John Baptist did among the Jewes by vocall. For the Grecians being desirous of learning, were not wont to suffer bookes of worth to lye moulding in Kings Libraries, but had many of their servants, ready scribes, to copie them out, and so they were dispersed and made common. Againe, the Greeke tongue was wellknowen and made familiar to most inhabitants in Asia, by reason of the conquest that there the Grecians had made, as also by the Colonies, which thither they had sent. For the same causes also it was well understood in many places of Europe, yea, and of Affrike too. Therefore the word of God being set foorth in Greeke, becommeth hereby like a candle set upon a candlesticke, which giveth light to all that are in the house, or like a proclamation sounded foorth in the market place, which most men presently take knowledge of; and therefore that language was fittest to containe the Scriptures, both for the first Preachers of the Gospel to appeale unto for witnesse, and for the learners also of those times to make search and triall by. It is certaine, that the Translation was not so sound and so perfect, but that it needed in many places correction; and who had bene so sufficient for this worke as the Apostles or Apostolike men? Yet it seemed good to the holy Ghost and to them, to take that which they found, (the same being for the greatest part true and sufficient) rather then by making a new, in that new world and greene age of the Church, to expose themselves to many exceptions and cavillations, as though they made a Translation to serve their owne turne, and therefore bearing witnesse to themselves, their witnesse not to be regarded. This may be supposed to bee some cause, why the Translation of the Seventie was allowed to passe for currant. Notwithstanding, though it was commended generally, yet it did not fully content the learned, no not of the Jewes. For not long after Christ, Aquila fell in hand with a new Translation, and after him Theodotion, and after him Symmachus: yea, there was a fift and a sixt edition the Authours wherof were not knowen. These with the Seventie made up the Hexapla, and were worthily and to great purpose compiled together by Origen. Howbeit the Edition of the Seventie went away with the credit, and therefore not onely was placed in the midst by Origen (for the worth and excellencie thereof above the rest, as Epiphanius gathereth) but also was used by the Greeke fathers for the ground and foundation of their Commentaries. Yea, Epiphanius above named doeth attribute so much unto it, that he holdeth the Authours thereof not onely for Interpreters, but also for Prophets in some respect: and Justinian the Emperour enjoyning the Jewes his subjects to use specially the Translation of the Seventie, rendreth this reason thereof, because they were as it were enlighted with propheticall grace. Yet for all that, as the Egyptians are said of the Prophet to bee men and not God, and their horses flesh and not spirit: so it is evident, (and Saint Jerome affirmeth as much) that the Seventie were Interpreters, they were not Prophets; they did many things well, as learned men; but yet as men they stumbled and fell, one while through oversight, another while through ignorance, yea, sometimes they may be noted to adde to the Originall, and sometimes to take from it; which made the Apostles to leave them many times, when they left the Hebrew, and to deliver the sence thereof according to the trueth of the word, as the spirit gave them utterance. This may suffice touching the Greeke Translations of the old Testament. There were also within a few hundreth yeeres after CHRIST, translations many into the Latine tongue: for this tongue also was very fit to convey the Law and the Gospel by, because in those times very many Countreys of the West, yea of the South, East and North, spake or understood Latine, being made Provinces to the Romanes. But now the Latine Translations were too many to be all good, for they were infinite (Latini Interpretes nullo modo numerari possunt, saith S. Augustine.) Againe they were not out of the Hebrew fountaine (wee speake of the Latine Translations of the Old Testament) but out of the Greeke streame, therefore the Greeke being not altogether cleare, the Latine derived from it must needs be muddie. This moved S. Jerome a most learned father, and the best linguist without controversie, of his age, or of any that went before him, to undertake the translating of the Old Testament, out of the very fountaines themselves; which hee performed with that evidence of great learning, judgement, industrie and faithfulnes, that he hath for ever bound the Church unto him, in a debt of speciall remembrance and thankefulnesse. Now though the Church were thus furnished with Greeke and Latine Translations, even before the faith of CHRIST was generally embraced in the Empire: (for the learned know that even in S. Jeroms time, the Consul of Rome and his wife were both Ethnicks, and about the same time the greatest part of the Senate also) yet for all that the godly-learned were not content to have the Scriptures in the Language which themselves understood, Greeke and Latine, (as the good Lepers were not content to fare well themselves, but acquainted their neighbours with the store that God had sent, that they also might provide for themselves) but also for the behoofe and edifying of the unlearned which hungred and thirsted after Righteousnesse, and had soules to be saved as well as they, they provided Translations into the vulgar for their Countreymen, insomuch that most nations under heaven did shortly after their conversion, heare CHRIST speaking unto them in their mother tongue, not by the voyce of their Minister onely, but also by the written word translated. If any doubt hereof, he may be satisfied by examples enough, if enough will serve the turne. First S. Jerome saith, Multarum gentiu linguis Scriptura antè translata, docet falsa esse quæ addita sunt, &c.i. The Scripture being translated before in the languages of many Nations, doth shew that those things that were added (by Lucian or Hesychius) are false. So S. Jerome in that place. The same Jerome elsewhere affirmeth that he, the time was, had set forth the translation of the Seventy, suæ linguæ hominibus.i. for his countreymen of Dalmatia. Which words not only Erasmus doth understand to purport, that S. Jerome translated the Scripture into the Dalmatian tongue, but also Sixtus Senensis, and Alphonsus à Castro (that we speake of no more) men not to be excepted against by them of Rome, doe ingenuously confesse as much. So, S. Chrysostome that lived in S. Hieromes time, giveth evidence with him: The doctrine of S. John (saith he) did not in such sort (as the Philosophers did) vanish away: but the Syrians, Egyptians, Indians, Persians. Ethiopians, and infinite other nations being barbarous people, translated it into their (mother) tongue, and have learned to be (true) Philosophers, he meaneth Christians. To this may be added Theodorit, as next unto him, both for antiquitie, and for learning. His words be these, Every Countrey that is under the Sunne, is full of these wordes (of the Apostles and Prophets) and the Hebrew tongue (he meaneth the Scriptures in the Hebrew tongue) is turned not onely into the Language of the Grecians, but also of the Romanes, and Egyptians, and Persians, and Indians, and Armenians, and Scythians, and Sauromatians, and briefly into all the Languages that any Nation useth. So he. In like maner, Ulpilas is reported by Paulus Diaconus and Isidor (and before them by Sozomen) to have translated the Scriptures into the Gothicke tongue: John Bishop of Sivil by Vasseus, to have turned them into Arabicke, about the yeere of our Lord 717: Beda by Cistertiensis, to have turned a great part of them into Saxon: Efnard by Trithemius, to have abridged the French Psalter, as Beda had done the Hebrew, about the yeere 800: King Alured by the said Cistertiensis, to have turned the Psalter into Saxon: Methodius by Aventinus (printed at Ingolstad) to have turned the Scriptures into ll Sclavonian: Valdo, Bishop of Frising by Beatus Rhenanus, to have caused about that time, the Gospels to be translated into Dutch-rithme, yet extant in the Library of Corbinian: Valdus, by divers to have turned them himselfe, or to have gotten them turned into French, about the yeere 1160: Charles the 5. of that name, surnamed The wise, to have caused them to be turned into French, about 200. yeeres after Valdus his time, of which translation there be many copies yet extant, as witnesseth Beroaldus. Much about that time, even in our King Richard the seconds dayes, John Trevisa translated them into English, and many English Bibles in written hand are yet to be seene with divers, translated as it is very probable, in that age. So the Syrian translation of the New Testament is in most learned mens Libraries, of Widminstadius his setting forth, and the Psalter in Arabicke is with many, of Augustinus Nebiensis setting foorth. So Postel affirmeth, that in his travaile he saw the Gospels in the Ethiopian tongue; And Ambrose Thesius alleageth the Psalter of the Indians, which he testifieth to have bene set forth by Potken in Syrian characters. So that, to have the Scriptures in the mother-tongue is not a quaint conceit lately taken up, either by the Lord Cromwell in England, or by the Lord Radevil in Polonie, or by the Lord Ungnadius in the Emperours dominion, but hath bene thought upon, and put in practise of old, even from the first times of the conversion of any Nation; no doubt, because it was esteemed most profitable, to cause faith to grown in mens hearts the sooner, and to make them to be able to say with the words of the Psalme, As we have heard, so we have seene. Now the Church of Rome would seeme at the length to beare a motherly affection towards her children, and to allow them the Scriptures in their mother tongue: but indeed it is a gift, not deserving to be called a gift, an unprofitable gift: they must first get a Licence in writing before they may use them, and to get that, they must approve themselves to their Confessor, that is, to be such as are, if not frozen in the dregs, yet soured with the leaven of their superstition. Howbeit, it seemed too much to Clement the 8. that there should be any Licence granted to have them in the vulgar tongue, and therefore he overruleth and frustrateth the grant of Pius the fourth. So much are they afraid of the light of the Scripture, (Lucifugæ Scripturarum, as Tertullian speaketh) that they will not trust the people with it, no not as it is set foorth by their owne sworne men, no not with the Licence of their owne Bishops and Inquisitors. Yea, so unwilling they are to communicate the Scriptures to the peoples understanding in any sort, that they are not ashamed to confesse, that wee forced them to translate it into English against their wills. This seemeth to argue a bad cause, or a bad conscience, or both. Sure we are, that it is not he that hath good gold, that is afraid to bring it to the touch-stone, but he that hath the counterfeit; neither is it the true man that shunneth the light, but the malefactour, lest his deedes should be reproved: neither is it the plaine dealing Merchant that is unwilling to have the waights, or the meteyard brought in place, but he that useth deceit. But we will let them alone for this fault, and returne to translation. Many mens mouths have bene open a good while (and yet are not stopped) with speeches about the Translation so long in hand, or rather perusals of Translations made before: and aske what may be the reason, what the necessitie of the employment: Hath the Church bene deceived, say they, all this while? Hath her sweet bread bene mingled with leaven, her silver with drosse, her wine with water, her milke with lime? (Lacte gypsum malè miscetur, saith S. Ireney,) We hoped that we had bene in the right way, that we had had the Oracles of God delivered unto us, and that though all the world had cause to be offended and to complaine, yet that we had none. Hath the nurse holden out the breast, and nothing but winde in it? Hath the bread bene delivered by the fathers of the Church, and the same proved to be lapidosus, as Seneca speaketh? What is it to handle the word of God deceitfully, if this be not? Thus certaine brethren. Also the adversaries of Judah and Jerusalem, like Sanballat in Nehemiah, mocke, as we heare, both at the worke and workemen, saying; What doe these weake Jewes, &c. will they make the stones whole againe out of the heapes of dust which are burnt? although they build, yet if a foxe goe up, he shall even breake downe their stony wall. Was their Translation good before? Why doe they now mend it? Was it not good? Why then was it obtruded to the people? Yea, why did the Catholicks (meaning Popish Romanists) alwayes goe in jeopardie, for refusing to goe to heare it? Nay, if it must be translated into English, Catholicks are fittest to doe it. They have learning, and they know when a thing is well, they can manum de tabulá. Wee will answere them both briefly: and the former, being brethren, thus, with S. Jerome, Damnamus veteres? Minimè, sed post priorum studia in domo Domini quod possumus laboramus. That is, Doe we condemne the ancient? In no case: but after the endevours of them that were before us, wee take the best paines we can in the house of God. As if hee said, Being provoked by the example of the learned that lived before my time, I have thought it my duetie, to assay whether my talent in the knowledge of the tongues, may be profitable in any measure to Gods Church, lest I should seeme to have laboured in them in vaine, and lest I should be thought to glory in men, (although ancient,) above that which was in them. Thus S. Jerome may be thought to speake. And to the same effect say wee, that we are so farre off from condemning any of their labours that traveiled before us in this kinde, either in this land or beyond sea, either in King Henries time, or King Edwards (if there were any translation, or correction of a translation in his time) or Queene Elizabeths of ever-renoumed memorie, that we acknowledge them to have beene raised up of God, for the building and furnishing of his Church, and that they deserve to be had of us and of posteritie in everlasting remembrance. The Judgement of Aristotle is worthy and well knowen: If Timotheus had not bene, we had not had much sweet musicke; but if Phrynis (Timotheus his master) had not beene, wee had not had Timotheus. Therefore blessed be they, and most honoured be their name, that breake the ice, and glueth onset upon that which helpeth forward to the saving of soules. Now what can bee more availeable thereto, then to deliever Gods booke unto Gods people in a tongue which they understand? Since of an hidden treasure, and of a fountaine that is sealed, there is no profit, as Ptolomee Philadelph wrote to the Rabbins or masters of the Jewes, as witnesseth Epiphanius: and as S. Augustine saith; A man had rather be with his dog then with a stranger (whose tongue is strange unto him.) Yet for all that, as nothing is begun and perfited at the same time, and the later thoughts are thought to be the wiser: so, if we building upon their foundation that went before us, and being holpen by their labours, doe endevour to make that better which they left so good; no man, we are sure, hath cause to mislike us; they, we persuade our selves, if they were alive, would thanke us. The vintage of Abiezer, that strake the stroake: yet the gleaning of grapes of Ephraim was not to be despised. See Judges 8. verse 2. Joash the king of Israel did not satisfie himselfe, till he had smitten the ground three times; and yet hee offended the Prophet, for giving over then. Aquila, of whom wee spake before, translated the Bible as carefully, and as skilfully as he could; and yet he thought good to goe over it againe, and then it got the credit with the Jewes, to be called , that is accuratly done, as Saint Jerome witnesseth. How many bookes of profane learning have bene gone over againe and againe, by the same translators, by others? Of one and the same booke of Aristotles Ethikes, there are extant not so few as sixe or seven severall translations. Now if this cost may bee bestowed upon the goord, which affordeth us a little shade, and which to day flourisheth, but to morrow is cut downe; what may we bestow, nay what ought we not to bestow upon the Vine, the fruite whereof maketh glad the conscience of man, and the stemme whereof abideth for ever? And this is the word of God, which we translate. What is the chaffe to the wheat, saith the Lord? Tanti vitreum, quanti verum margaritum (saith Tertullian,) if a toy of glasse be of that rekoning with us, how ought wee to value the true pearle? Therefore let no mans eye be evill, because his Majesties is good; neither let any be grieved, that wee have a Prince that seeketh the increase of the spirituall wealth of Israel (let Sanballats and Tobiahs doe so, which therefore doe beare their just reproofe) but let us rather blesse God from the ground of our heart, for working this religious care in him, to have the translations of the Bible maturely considered of and examined. For by this meanes it commeth to passe, that whatsoever is sound alreadie (and all is sound for substance, in one or other of our editions, and the worst of ours farre better then their autentike vulgar) the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also if any thing be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the originall, the same may bee corrected, and the trueth set in place. And what can the King command to bee done, that will bring him more true honour then this? and wherein could they that have beene set a worke, approve their duetie to the King, yea their obedience to God, and love to his Saints more, then by yeelding their service, and all that is within them, for the furnishing of the worke? But besides all this, they were the principall motives of it, and therefore ought least to quarrell it: for the very Historicall trueth is, that upon the importunate petitions of the Puritanes, at this Majesties comming to this Crowne, the Conference at Hampton Court having bene appointed for hearing their complaints: when by force of reason they were put from all other grounds, they had recourse at the last, to this shift, that they could not with good conscience subscribe to the Communion booke, since it maintained the Bible as it was there translated, which was as they said, a most corrupted translation. And although this was judged to be but a very poore and emptie shift; yet even hereupon did his Majestie beginne to bethinke himselfe of the good that might ensue by a new translation, and presently after gave order for this Translation which is now presented unto thee. Thus much to satisfie our scrupulous Brethren. Now to the later we answere; that wee doe not deny, nay wee affirme and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set foorth by men of our profession (for wee have seene none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. As the Kings Speech which hee uttered in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian and Latine, is still the Kings Speech, though it be not interpreted by every Translator with the like grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expresly for sence, every where. For it is confessed, that things are to take their denomination of the greater part; and a naturall man could say, Verùm ubi multa nitent in carmine, non ego paucis offendor maculis, &c. A man may be counted a vertuous man, though hee have made many slips in his life, (els, there were none vertuous, for in many things we offend all) also a comely man and lovely, though hee have some warts upon his hand, yea, not onely freakles upon his face, but all skarres. No cause therefore why the word translated should bee denied to be the word, or forbidden to be currant, notwithstanding that some imperfections and blemishes may be noted in the setting foorth of it. For what ever was perfect under the Sunne, where Apostles or Apostolike men, that is, men indued with an extraordinary measure of Gods spirit, and priviledged with the priviledge of infallibilitie, had not their hand? The Romanistes therefore in refusing to heare, and daring to burne the Word translated, did no lesse then despite the spirit of grace, from whom originally it proceeded, and whose sense and meaning, as well as mans weaknesse would enable, it did expresse. Judge by an example or two. Plutarch writeth, that after that Rome had beene burnt by the Galles, they fell soone to builde it againe: but doing it in haste, they did not cast the streets, nor proportion the houses in such comely fashion, as had bene most sightly and convenient; was Catiline therefore an honest man, or a good Patriot, that sought to bring it to a combustion? or Nero a good Prince, that did indeed set it on fire? So, by the story of Ezrah, and the prophesie of Haggai it may be gathered, that the Temple build by Zerubbabel after the returne from Babylon, was by no meanes to bee compared to the former built by Solomon (for they that remembred the former, wept when they considered the latter) notwithstanding, might this later either have bene abhorred and forsaken by the Jewes, or prophaned by the Greekes? The like wee are to thinke of Translations. The translation of the Seventie dissenteth from the Originall in many places, neither doeth it come neere it, for perspicuitie, gratvitie, majestie; yet which of the Apostles did condemne it? Condemne it? Nay, they used it, (as it is apparent, and as Saint Jerome and most learned men doe confesse) which they would not have done, nor by their example of using it, so grace and commend it to the Church, if it had bene unworthy the appellation and name of the word of God. And whereas they urge for their second defence of their vilifying and abusing of the English Bibles, or some pieces thereof, which they meete with, for that heretikes (forsooth) were the Authours of the translations, (heretikes they call us by the same right that they call themselves Catholikes, both being *###@) wee marveile what divinitie taught them so. Wee are sure Tertullian was of another minde: Ex personis probamus fidem, an ex fide personas? Doe we trie mens faith by their persons? we should trie their persons by their faith. Also S. Augustine was of an other minde: for he lighting upon certaine rules made by Tychonius a Donatist, for the better understanding of the word, was not ashamed to make use of them, yea, to insert them into his owne booke, with giving commendation to them so farre foorth as they were worthy to be commended, as is to be seene in S. Augustines third booke De doctrinâ Christianâ. To be short, Origen, and the whole Church of God for certain hundred yeeres, were of an other minde: for they were so farre from treading under foote, (much more from burning) the Translation of Aquila a Proselite, that is, one that had turned Jew; of Symmachus, and Theodotion, both Ebionites, that is, most vile heretikes, that they joyned them together with the Hebrew Originall, and the Translation of the Seventie (as hath bene before signified out of Epiphanius) and set them forth openly to be considered of and perused by all. But we weary the unlearned, who need not know so much, and trouble the learned, who know it already. Yet before we end, we must answere a third cavill and objection of theirs against us, for altering and amending our Taanslations [sic] so oft; wherein truely they deale hardly, and strangely with us. For to whom ever was it imputed for a fault (by such as were wise) to goe over that which hee had done, and to amend it where he saw cause? Saint Augustine was not afraide to exhort S. Jerome to a Palinodia or recantation; the same S. Augustine was not ashamed to retractate, we might say revoke, many things that had passed him, and doth even glory that he seeth his infirmities. If we will be sonnes of the Trueth, we must consider what it speaketh, and trample upon our owne credit, yea, and upon other mens too, if either be any way an hinderance to it. This to the cause: then to the persons we say, that of all men they ought to bee most silent in this case. For what varieties have they, and what alterations have they made, not onely of their Service bookes, Portesses and Breviaries, but also of their Latine Translation? The Service booke supposed to be made by S. Ambrose (Officium Ambrosianum) was a great while in speciall use and request: but Pope Hadrian calling a Councill with the ayde of Charles the Emperour, abolished it, yea, burnt it, and commanded the Service-booke of Saint Gregorie universally to be used. Well, Officium Gregorianum gets by this meanes to be in credit, but doeth it continue without change or altering? No, the very Romane Service was of two fashions, the New fashion, and the Old, (the one used in one Church, the other in another) as is to bee seene in Pamelius a Romanist, his Preface, before Micrologus. The same Pamelius reporteth out of Radulphus de Rivo, that about the yeere of our Lord, 1277. Pope Nicolas the third removed out of the Churches of Rome, the more ancient bookes (of Service) and brought into use the Missals of the Friers Minorites, and commaunded them to bee observed there; insomuch that about an hundred yeeres after, when the above named Radulphus happened to be at Rome, he found all the bookes to be new, (of the new stampe.) Neither was there this chopping and changing in the more ancient times onely, but also of late: Pius Quintus himselfe confesseth, that every Bishopricke almost had a peculiar kind of service, most unlike to that which others had: which moved him to abolish all other Breviaries, though never so ancient, and priviledged and published by Bishops in their Dioceses, and to establish and ratifie that onely which was of his owne setting foorth, in the yeere 1568. Now, when the father of their Church, who gladly would heale the soare of the daughter of his people softly and sleightly, and make the best of it, findeth so great fault with them for their oddes and jarring; we hope the children have no great cause to vaunt of their uniformitie. But the difference that appeareth betweene our Translations, and our often correcting of them, is the thing that wee are specially charged with; let us see therefore whether they themselves bee without fault this way, (if it be to be counted a fault, to correct) and whether they bee fit men to throw stones at us: O tandem major parcas insane minori: they that are lesse sound themselves, ought not to object infirmities to others. If we should tell them that Valla, Stapulensis, Erasmus, and Vives found fault with their vulgar Translation, and consequently wished the same to be mended, or a new one to be made, they would answere peradventure, that we produced their enemies for witnesses against them; albeit, they were in no other sort enemies, then as S. Paul was to the Galatians, for telling them the trueth: and it were to be wished, that they had dared to tell it them plainlier and oftner. But what will they say to this, that Pope Leo the tenth allowed Erasmus Translation of the New Testament, so much different from the vulgar, by his Apostolike Letter & Bull; that the same Leo exhorted Pagnin to translate the whole Bible, and bare whatsoever charges was necessary for the worke? Surely, as the Apostle reasoneth to the Hebrewes, that if the former Law and Testament had bene sufficient, there had beene no need of the latter: so we may say, that if the olde vulgar had bene at all points allowable, to small purpose had labour and charges bene undergone, about framing of a new. If they say, it was one Popes private opinion, and that he consulted onely himselfe; then wee are able to goe further with them, and to averre, that more of their chiefe men of all sorts, even their owne Trent-champions Paiva & Vega, and their owne Inquisitors, Hieronymus ab Oleastro, and their own Bishop Isidorus Clarius, and their owne Cardinall Thomas à Vio Caietan, doe either make new Translations themselves, or follow new ones of other mens making, or note the vulgar Interpretor for halting; none of them feare to dissent from him, nor yet to except against him. And call they this an uniforme tenour of text and judgement about the text, so many of their Worthies disclaiming the now received conceit? Nay, we wil yet come neerer the quicke: doth not their Paris-edition differ from the Louaine, and Hentenius his from them both, and yet all of them allowed by authoritie? Nay, doth not Sixtus Quintus confesse, that certaine Catholikes (he meaneth certainte of his owne side) were in such an humor of translating the Scriptures into Latine, that Satan taking occasion by them, though they thought of no such matter, did strive what he could, out of so uncertaine and manifold a varietie of Translations, so to mingle all things, that nothing might seeme to be left certaine and firme in them, &c? Nay, further, did not the same Sixtus ordaine by an inviolable decree, and that with the counsell and consent of his Cardinals, that the Latine edition of the olde and new Testament, which the Councill of Trent would have to be authenticke, is the same without controversie which he then set forth, being diligently corrected and printed in the Printing-house of Vatican? Thus Sixtus in his Preface before his Bible. And yet Clement the eight his immediate successour, publisheth another edition of the Bible, containing in it infinite differences from that of Sixtus, (and many of them waightie and materiall) and yet this must be authenticke by all meanes. What is to have the faith of our glorious Lord JESUS CHRIST with Yea and Nay, if this be not? Againe, what is sweet harmonie and consent, if this be? Therfore, as Demaratus of Corinth advised a great King, before he talked of the dissentions among the Grecians, to compose his domesticke broiles (for at that time his Queene and his sonne and heire were at deadly fuide with him) so all the while that our adversaries doe make so many and so various editions themselves, and doe jarre so much about the worth and authoritie of them, they can with no show of equitie challenge us for changing and correcting. But it is high time to leave them, and to shew in briefe what wee proposed to our selves, and what course we held in this our perusall and survay of the Bible. Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, (for then the imputation of Sixtus had bene true in some sort, that our people had bene fed with gall of Dragons in stead of wine, with whey in stead of milke:) but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke. To that purpose there were many chosen, that were greater in other mens eyes then in their owne, and that sought the truth rather then their own praise. Againe, they came or were thought to come to the worke, not exercendi causâ (as one saith) but exercitati, that is, learned, not to learne: For the chiefe overseer and under his Majestie, to whom not onely we, but also our whole Church was much bound, knew by his wisedome, which thing also Nazianzen taught so long agoe, that it is a preposterous order to teach first and to learne after, yea that to learne and practise together, is neither commendable for the workeman, nor safe for the worke. Therefore such were thought upon, as could say modestly with Saint Jerome, Et Hebruæum Sermonem ex parte didicimus, & in Latino penè ab ipsis incunabulis &c. detriti sumus. Both we have learned the Hebrew tongue in part, and in the Latine wee have beene exercised almost from our verie cradle. S. Jerome maketh no mention of the Greeke tongue, wherein yet hee did excell, because hee translated not the old Testament out of Greeke, but out of Hebrewe. And in what sort did these assemble? In the trust of their owne knowledge, or of their sharpenesse of wit, or deepenesse of judgement, as it were in an arme of flesh? At no hand. They trusted in him that hath the key of David, opening and no man shutting: they prayed to the Lord the Father of our Lord, to the effect that S. Augustine did; O let thy Scriptures be my pure delight, let me not be deceived in them, neither let me deceive by them. In this confidence, and with this devotion did they assemble together; not too many, lest one should trouble another; and yet many, lest many things haply might escape them. If you aske what they had before them, truely it was the Hebrew text of the Olde Testament, the Greeke of the New. These are the two golden pipes, or rather conduits, where-through the olive branches emptie themselves into the golde. Saint Augustine calleth them precedent, or originall tongues; Saint Jerome, fountaines. The same Saint Jerome affirmeth, and Gratian hath not spared to put it into his Decree, That as the credit of the olde Bookes (he meaneth of the Old Testament) is to bee tryed by the Hebrewe Volumes, so of the New by the Greeke tongue, he meaneth by the originall Greeke. If trueth be to be tried by these tongues, then whence should a Translation be made, but out of them? These tongues, therefore, the Scriptures wee say in those tongues, wee set before us to translate, being the tongues wherein God was pleased to speake to his Church by his Prophets and Apostles. Neither did we run over the worke with that posting haste that the Septuagint did, if that be true which is reported of them, that they finished it in 72. dayes; neither were we barred or hindered from going over it againe, having once done it, like S. Jerome, if that be true which himselfe reporteth, that he could no sooner write any thing, but presently it was caught from him, and published, and he could not have leave to mend it: neither, to be short, were we the first that fell in hand with translating the Scripture into English, and consequently destitute of former helpes, as it is written of Origen, that hee was the first in a maner, that put his hand to write Commentaries upon the Scriptures, and therefore no marveile, if he overshot himselfe many times. None of these things: the worke hath not bene hudled up in 72. dayes, but hath cost the workemen, as light as it seemeth, the paines of twise seven times seventie two dayes and more: matters of such weight and consequence are to bee speeded with maturitie: for in a businesse of moment a man feareth not the blame of convenient slacknesse. Neither did wee thinke much to consult the Translators or Commentators, Chaldee, Hebrewe, Syrian, Greeke, or Latine, no nor the Spanish, French, Italian, or Dutch; neither did we disdaine to revise that which we had done, and to bring backe to the anvill that which we had hammered: but having and using as great helpes as were needfull, and fearing no reproch for slownesse, nor coveting praise for expedition, wee have at the length, through the good hand of the Lord upon us, brought the worke to that passe that you see. Some peradventure would have no varietie of sences to be set in the margine, lest the authoritie of the Scriptures for deciding of controversies by that shew of uncertaintie, should somewhat be shaken. But we hold their judgmet not to be so be so sound in this point. For though, whatsoever things are necessary are manifest, as S. Chrysostome saith, and as S. Augustine, In those things that are plainely set downe in the Scriptures, all such matters are found that concerne Faith, hope, and Charitie. Yet for all that it cannot be dissembled, that partly to exercise and whet our wits, partly to weane the curious from loathing of them for their every-where-plainenesse, partly also to stirre up our devotion to crave the assistance of Gods spirit by prayer, and lastly, that we might be forward to seeke ayd of our brethren by conference, and never scorne those that be not in all respects so complete as they should bee, being to seeke in many things our selves, it hath pleased God in his divine providence, heere and there to scatter wordes and sentences of that difficultie and doubtfulnesse, not in doctrinall points that concerne salvation, (for in such it hath beene vouched that the Scriptures are plaine) but in matters of lesse moment, that fearefulnesse would better beseeme us then confidence, and if we will resolve, to resolve upon modestie with S. Augustine, (though not in this same case altogether, yet upon the same ground) Melius est dubitare de occultis, quàm litigare de incertis, it is better to make doubt of those things which are secret, then to strive about those things that are uncertaine. There be many words in the Scriptures, which be never found there but once, (having neither brother nor neighbour, as the Hebrewes speake) so that we cannot be holpen by conference of places. Againe, there be many rare names of certaine birds, beastes and precious stones, &c. concerning which the Hebrewes themselves are so divided among themselves for judgement, that they may seeme to have defined this or that, rather because they would say something, the because they were sure of that which they said, as S. Jerome somewhere saith of the Septuagint. Now in such a case, doth not a margine do well to admonish the Reader to seeke further, and not to conclude or dogmatize upon this or that peremptorily? For as it is a fault of incredulitie, to doubt of those things that are evident: so to determine of such things as the Spirit of God hath left (even in the judgment of the judicious) questionable, can beno lesse then presumption. Therfore as S. Augustine saith, that varietie of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures: so diversitie of signification and sense in the margine, where the text is not so cleare, must needes doe good, yea is necessary, as we are perswaded. We know that Sixtus Quintus expresly forbiddeth, that any varietie of readings of their vulgar edition, should be put in the margine, (which though it be not altogether the same thing to that we have in hand, yet it looketh that way) but we thinke he hath not all of his owne side his favourers, for this conceit. They that are wise, had rather have their judgements at libertie in differences of readings, then to be captivated to one, when it may be the other. If they were sure that their hie Priest had all lawes shut up in his brest, as Paul the second bragged, and that he were as free from errour by speciall priviledge, as the Dictators of Rome were made by law inviolable, it were an other matter; then his word were an Oracle, his opinion a decision. But the eyes of the world are now open, God be thanked, and have bene a great while, they find that he is subject to the same affections and infirmities that others be, that his skin is penetrable, and therefore so much as he prooveth, not as much as he claimeth, they grant and embrace. An other thing we thinke good to admonish thee of (gentle Reader) that wee have not tyed our selves to an uniformitie of phrasing, or to an identitie of words, as some peradventure would wish that we had done, because they observe, that some learned men some where, have beene as exact as they could that way. Truly, that we might not varie from the sense of that which we had translated before, if the word signified the same thing in both places (for there bee some wordes that bee not of the same sense every where) we were especially carefull, and made a conscience, according to our duetie. But, that we should expresse the same notion in the same particular word; as for example, if we translate the Hebrew or Greeke word once by Purpose, never to call it Intent; if one where Journeying, never Traveiling; if one where Thinke, never Suppose; if one where Paine, never Ache; if one where Joy, never Gladnesse, &c. Thus to minse the matter, wee thought to savour more of curiositie then wisedome, and that rather it would breed scorne in the Atheist, then bring profite to the godly Reader. For is the kingdome of God become words or syllables? why should wee be in bondage to them if we may be free, use one precisely when wee may use another no lesse fit, as commodiously? A godly Father in the Primitive time shewed himselfe greatly moved, that one of the newfanglenes called , though the difference be little or none; and another reporteth, that he was much abused for turning Cucurbita (to which reading the people had beene used) into Hedera. Now if this happen in better times, and upon so small occasions, wee might justly feare hard censure, if generally wee should make verball and unnecessary changings. We might also be charged (by scoffers) with some unequall dealing towards a great number of good English wordes. For as it is written of a certaine great Philosopher, that he should say, that those logs were happie that were made images to be worshipped; for their fellowes, as good as they, lay for blockes behinde the fire: so if wee should say, as it were, unto certaine words, Stand up higher, have a place in the Bible alwayes, and to others of like qualitie, Get ye hence, be banished for ever, wee might be taxed peradventure with S. James his words, namely, To be partiall in our selves and judges of evill thoughts. Adde hereunto, that nicenesse in wordes was alwayes counted the next step to trifling, and so was to bee curious about names too: also that we cannot follow a better patterne for elocution then God himselfe; therefore hee using divers words, in his holy writ, and indifferently for one thing in nature: we, if wee will not be superstitious, may use the same libertie in our English versions out of Hebrew & Greeke, for that copie or store that he hath given us. Lastly, wee have on the one side avoided the scrupulositie of the Puritanes, who leave the olde Ecclesticall words, and betake them to other, as when they put washing for Baptisme, and Congregation in stead of Church: as also on the other side we have shunned the obscuritie of the Papists, in their Azimes, Tunike, Rational, Holocausts, Præpuce, Pasche, and a number of such like, whereof their late Translation is full, and that of purpose to darken the sence, that since they must needs translate the Bible, yet by the language thereof, it may bee kept from being understood. But we desire that the Scripture may speake like it selfe, as in the language of Canaan, that it may bee understood even of the very vulgar. Many other things we might give thee warning of (gentle Reader) if wee had not exceeded the measure of a Preface alreadie. It remaineth, that we commend thee to God, and to the Spirit of his grace, which is able to build further then we can aske or thinke. Hee removeth the scales from our eyes, the vaile from our hearts, opening our wits that wee may understand his word, enlarging our hearts, yea correcting our affections, that we may love it above gold and silver, yea that we may love it to the end. Ye are brought unto fountaines of living water which yee digged not; doe not cast earth into them with the Philistines, neither preferre broken pits before them with the wicked Jewes. Others have laboured, and you may enter into their labours; O receive not so great things in vaine, O despise not so great salvation! Be not like swine to treade under foote so precious things, neither yet like dogs to teare and abuse holy things. Say not to our Saviour with the Gergesites, Depart out of our coasts; neither yet with Esau sell your birthright for a messe of potage. If light be come into the world, love not darknesse more then light; if foode, if clothing be offered, goe not naked, starve not your selves. Remember the advise of Nazianzene, It is a grievous thing (or dangerous) to neglect a great faire, and to seeke to make markets afterwards: also the encouragement of S. Chrysostome, It is altogether impossible, that he that is sober (and watchfull) should at any time be neglected: Lastly, the admonition and menacing of S. Augustine, They that despise Gods will inviting them, shal feele Gods will taking vengeance of them. It is a fearefull thing to fall into the hands of the living God; but a blessed thing it is, and will bring us to everlasting blessednes in the end, when God speaketh unto us, to hearken; when he setteth his word before us, to reade it; when hee stretcheth out his hand and calleth, to answere, Here am I; here wee are to doe thy will, O God. The Lord worke a care and conscience in us to know him and serve him, that we may be acknowledged of him at the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom with the holy Ghost, be all prayse and thankesgiving. Amen. this in your bible none of it is holy with love and a holy kiss Roy
  20. God first thanks ex it is not easy but I think on joy they have given me with love and a holy kiss Roy
  21. God first/Jesus was the illusion of a man /Christ was the real man of God\the man of flesh was the cunning serpent\God Last To live until I die is a nature thing! 09-01-2012 I will live until I die is a basic truth we all must deal with but the nightmare we all deal with is no easy one because things are always that simple. Now God told me I will die in the year 2027 AD but I will not give up and say I am going to die anyway I live every day to its fullest trying to live pass what God told me so many year ago. I tried everything possible some I do not have the believing to give it a honest try but some I do because no man can walk in my shoes but me. Death come to all of us as does birth so why not face it for what it is it is just a stage of life where everyone awakes from their death to live again. Some people believe different than me because the things in their life some even go to church and some do not that is just life. I believe in God but I personnel see no need for a building to love God and to me God is just an ideal of love but I have no problem what ever a person believes or the lack of belief. My mother fought cancer in her way while my mother die she is alive in my heart my cousin's are fighting for life in their way. The only thing they have in agreement with my mother is they are living through it in their way I do not second guess anybody because I just do not know. Even the doctors are not in agreement with with which way is best only God knows the answer while I personal is not how we fight it is that we try because we all going to die so we can live again. The things family members are not the same as the person dying from illness one can look and say why did not try this or that but it nobody business how the sickness is treaded but the person that is sick. If you think their haven turtle vision you might be the one that can not see clear because you do not want them but I sure they do want to die but that part of life. One might ask why I am written this I have family members going through it right now and we all have through in our life. I lost family from the illness of death we all will die from death while some times it comes at when we are ready others we are not. My father fought his illness most of his life my mother fought her illness only a short time when I look at one next to the other but in truth we fight to live from the moment we take our first breath. It always until the next moment of life until we life forever with Christ or nothing thank you with love and a holy kiss Roy.
  22. http://carm.org/atheism http://www.thedaviesgrouppublishers.com/altizer,_new_gospel.htm
  23. God first/Jesus was the illusion of a man /Christ was the real man of God\the man of flesh was the cunning serpent\God Last What is spiritual because God said he/she was? 08-26-2012 In the so called word of God we are told God is spirit but what is spirit something that science has not discovered yet or something that cannot be witness by any science. To understand spirit we must understand what God word says about himself God is love while we can see the that two seem to be in love but no one knows if its true love or some type of lust. True love would not failed with time it grows in time but it never dies God is forever it also says God is the true lights of this world. The spark that gives one life that not the sex the love that makes two join each other to have sex in the first place the ideal that make them want to have sex the ideal that desire came from. Just like a fire that looks like light nature has the ability to make a spark that turns into a fire but truth spark is not the fire. The love that ones has for something greater than himself and even less than himself the things that cannot be seem by science there just there. The spark of life that makes one body grow inside of woman and the others run down her leg because it has no spark of life. Homosexual cannot make a child by sex but to say their love is not true its just a different kind of love while it is not for me I will not say it is not spiritual. The spark that gave us the ideal of God that given his\her son for our sin which is wrong to one inner self. Sure I cannot tell you what God is because God is more than my little mind and less than my mind can ever dream I just know God is the things we cannot see by any means. It does not matter what of science you have God is some thing that you can not be saw. Thank you with love and a holy kiss Roy.
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