Lifted Up

I have forgiven myself; I hear it too many times not to listen, from my counselor, male survivor support group, my faith resources, and a few pertinent online pages. I don;t worry about closure with the ex-Way community, or anyone acknowledging this male being sexually assaulted. But I am very active in the general community; my non Way related friend who helped me break my silence also having co founded a national abuse prevention group, and helping me to laugh and smile (That's her job with everybody). But being loosened up (I heard those words specifically used about me) was not a loosening up, or playing around. And of course that loosening up term was one of VPW's.  

20 hours ago, annio said:

 

3) I can see parallels betw the modus operandi of vpw and Harvey Weinsten, Jeffrey Epstein, Catholic priests, et al.  Weinstein was a bully in general, several ppl testified, so naturally this can extend to a man's sexual relationships with women who need his support/connection to advance their careers. A male assistant said working for him was like "being in a cult". Vpw was a bully with power in general, and used sex as a way to bring "privileged" young women into his inner circle using his false mog persona. There are numerous parallels between all of these predators, the normalizing cultures around them, the addictions they had, the sense that they were untouchable re: the law/consequences, etc.

4) All of this is building up my desire to DO something. Since I left the way in '88 and transitioned with others into Chris Geer's fold for a good while, and since CG led me to the motor coach in '80, I did research and found his home address: 13 Casselton Rd, Raymond, ME, 4071-6727. Maybe I will write him a letter... Maybe I will write Kris Skedgell about how much her wonderful book Losing the Way meant to me; she was at the family camp where I took PFAL in '74 (and where a young man just about seduced me)... 

YES,,,there are lots of parallels between abusers and assaulters and rapists who committed their acts in what at first seems were radically different environments.  The (non-Way) friend who helped me break my silence about my own Way sexual assault once told me that abusers often seem to be reading from the same script. (she is also my favorite entertainer).  Power is the key word for the perpetrator, and shame is his/her tool to subdue the victim. Shame is often described as the master emotion by the leader of my male survivor support group. In that same group, I have come across survivors from churches who went through ordeals much like I did in my cult. I certainly have seen strong cult similarities between the Way and followers of a certain politician who is basically an avowed abuser. And I know about the desire to do somethng, again, not Way related but there is so much to do. Since my friend is a child abuse survivor who co founded a national group, I went to work for that group. At one point, she recommended a book written for male child abuse survivors, even though she knew my sexual assault happened as an adult in a cult (The Way of course). And, in obedience, we were treated like children in the Way, even in the Way Corps. BTW years ago, Kristen Skedgell's book was a big awakening for me as well. For decades, I did not want to believe such bad stuff happened in the Way to anyone, much less to myself, of course not recalling my assault during that time. "Losing the Way" was a big step in my awakening.

 

 

 

I decided that what good things the Way contributed to in my life had to be re-evaluated. When I was sexually assaulted in the name of the "love of God" all things, good and bad, had to be reviewed because the good, whatever there might have been, was used to hurt. Intent doesn't matter. Like one thing I participated in, using believing to degrade and belittle others, the most obvious example being chastising people for not believing...and therefore not being faithful to God...because they had incurred some illness, in many cases things as minor as mild sniffles. Anyway, I know I am far from alone in having to associate big hurts with what was presumably God's Love being taught, and ex-Way people are not alone: I have come across some in my male survivor support group who have somewhat the same problem, being sexually abused in church, often as children. Therefore, I am re-learning God with the help of my sexual assault counselor and faith based support. Of course this wipes out the ,myth of the Way being the only place God could be really taught.

I think I have covered this before on posts elsewhere, but briefly, the teachnig by VPW that leaders (such as corps men) were entitled to have their sexual needs fulfilled (for the good of the ministry) was the reason why I was sexually assaulted by two women. Easy to understand, especially after reading Charlene Edge's account (in "Undertow") of how she discovered that even VPW had women around who went along with his sexual "doctrine".  Maybe a little irony in how I am now learning abut our Real God,  and considering forgiveness, even as I have recieved recent indications that my main assaulter still doesn't think she could have hurt me. Men, in the Way and in the world, are often perceived as sex starved animals who cannot be hurt by sex and so my "loosening up" (I overheard clearly that term being used specifically about me i the event) and it still was just "playing around" to her. I think I can extend forgiveness because I have learned from my counselor and others what it is, and more importantly what it is NOT.  I just wonder if it can be accepted. But I understand also it is for ME, not them.

On 9/29/2019 at 4:29 PM, annio said:

Wow, and interesting that you can name that particular "conviction-filled" declaration as being so influential for you, dang!!  Yes, it does take time for the more traumatic times to come up for us, and to put them in the correct context of what was actually  going on, eh? To finally realize that what feels so counter-culture is actually true and valid...

Best to you Lifted Up! Have appreciated your honest personal sharings much.

I am pretty open online and non anonymous, but feel it is best to stick with my handle here. Well, here and in my male survivor group, were we are supposed to stay anonymous. I can relate to others who have been hurt in the name of "God's love", some of them were abused as children in their churches.

On 9/17/2019 at 9:13 PM, annio said:

 Wow, you remembered that hypocritical disclaimer shouted out from the ROA main stage, eh?

 

Yes, I remember now loads of details from my Way time, even though it took time to remember some of them , including my "loosening up".  But that disclaimer is actually what helped keep my mind glued onto Way like thinking, even after my body was yanked out of the cult.

On 9/17/2019 at 11:48 PM, WordWolf said:

  It sounds ridiculous, and if there wasn't so much testimony from so many witnesses and so many victims, it might not be possible to accept that vpw did it.

 

vpw SO deluded himself into thinking he was "THE Man of God" that- when he was in his final hours of life, he wracked his brain, looking for how he could somehow have "missed it" and failed God so he couldn't Super-Believe into instant health.   He looked back on his life, and was unable to find anything sufficient.   That was all for himself, alone. Now, THAT'S quite a level of delusion.

That is what FINALLY started to wake me up was the multitude of testimonies. I finally admitted that yes, the abuse COULD have happened, but I said I needed first person testimony, still unaware that I could have looked for it in the mirror. That testimony came in the form of "Losing the Way". Later, with the help of a wonderful survivor (and non Way related) friend, I remembered my own sexual assault. Nnot by VPW of course, but due IMO to hhis doctrine that corps men should "loosen up" ( or be loosened up).

And I agree,he fully believed he WAS "THE man of God"

BTW am I doing better on my post quoting? Seriously. I don;t want to confuse.

The problem with the presumed "good" is that IMO it is what got so many of us into trouble. Like his "humble souding" disclaimer at ROA 1976 after he elicited the automatic "NO" shout to "Finally, my brethren, be strong in VP Wierwille". IMO it is just one of many things he did to delude HIMSELF into thinking he was THE "Man of God." That is why teaching about God and the bible with the same methods used in TWI is of little value IMO. That comment may be better suited for the "offshoots" topic. But this thread mentions the abuse. and that abuse is what sours survivors, and should sour others, on the motives behind the "good".

23 hours ago, WordWolf said:

If I get you right, LU, it was more a matter of "don't get caught and make us look bad" than a matter of "do what's right and avoid what's wrong."  I agree.

Yep. In any event, we corps were not going to question him, even in just our own minds.

23 hours ago, WordWolf said:

LiftedUp,  for the benefit of us reading your posts, PLEASE make some distinction between the quote and your post.

You quoted Twinky, and wrote in the quote-box, and did nothing to indicate what was Twinky and what was you.

With the current software, one thing I do is to do a quote-box like you did, then, below the box,  move the parts I'm quoting, and put them in quotation marks.   Then I reply separately below them before I repeat the steps.  That way, everyone can find the original quote easily, and can see what the other poster said, and what I replied to.   Another thing I do (less common)  is to write in the quote-box. but put my words in boldface and brackets to separate them visually from the original quote.   (I can also do all of that at once, which makes it a LOT easier to see the difference.) 

Point taken. This was the first time I had tried to reply bit by bit instead of making just one reply at the end.

On 8/21/2019 at 4:24 PM, Twinky said:

That's why a lot of us old-timers continue to hang around here - to help newbies.  It takes a very long time to fully recover - if one ever does recover - - let's say, till the pain of it becomes less.  As time passes, more personal horrors sneak up into the consciousness and have to be dealt with.

Stick around - or come back when you're ready, share your latest horror memory.  We understand.  We know the manipulation and mind-control you were subject to.

You said it. very long time = a lifetime. In mysexual assault work and counseling, the lifetime nature of that event is stressed. And of course people went through a lot more in our cult.

On 8/19/2019 at 5:17 PM, Twinky said:

Why would "he" have to pay for any abortions?  Might he have caused the event requiring the abortion ?   

  He was warning us to "watch ourselves" for that reason; of course I know nothing about the presumed abortions he was referring to.

Does he mean, he did not want TWI to pay for any more abortions?  Would be a first, for TWI to accept responsibility for meeting someone's (?)needs(?).

  Following my above response, I don't know about the acepting responsibility part.  There is no question that he taught the corps that idea of "men of God" (corps) having to have     their  "needs met". That certainly came ibnto play in my own sexual assault, though I can't say if that came from the two women involved who knew that teaching, or more directly from higher up.

Obviously, from your post, there was no hint of "don't do it because pre-marital sex is not appropriate for unmarried people" or, "God says no, to sex before marriage."  (Doubt anyone would have paid him any attention on that, anyway, LOL.)

Yea, no matter how you look at it, obviously the idea he was trying to instill was don't bring a bad name to the ministry, nothing to do with what was right and wrong in the sight of God, who was being ignored. I have no desire to start an abortion debate, but you're right, he obviously wasn't telling us this for any oral or god;y reason.

(Not even going to discuss the question of abortion.)

As I said, no desire to do that here either.

As long as I'm around, I may as well mentioned the meeting VPW called all us corps going WOW to in the woods at ROA '78. He made sure we each got a burger, then cautioned us to watch ourselves sexually, because he did not want to pay for any more abortions. There ws no hint of anythng moral in his tone either way, on this issue; he sounded like  he just wanted to avoid his "ministry" getting a bad name. Hmmm, "either way", was that a Freudian pun?

Sexual assault/rape/abuse had already been rampant by this time, right? And not just by VPW. Was it around this time that VPW told LCM he should "loosen up" sexually? People used to talk about that a lot on these forums years ago but I never knew what time that VPW to LCM edict was presumably issued. But I know the term was used before December 1979, because that was when I was "loosened up" involuntarily (i.e. sexually assaulted0 by two corps women. How do I use this term in  my case? Because, after the assault, escaping to and freezing in my upper bunk, the two women told the men abut it. And the men (my corps "brothers") talked about it, not knowing I was in the room in my top bunk frozen but listening. (This was all after "lights out".) At least one said he thought it wqs good that I had been "loosened iup"; yes, he used those exact words. I never let on that I overheard. So, there is at least one male TWI sexual assault survivor around. 

5 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:

The only “plan” these wierwillean hacks and Nazi bigots have, is to continue the malignant paranoid narcissism and serial misogyny and sexual predation of their religious bigot idol and fuhrer, Herr wierwille the First. They have NO IDENTITY OF THEIR OWN. They have no moral compass of their own, and they reside in the “intellectual” swamp of Aryan Nazi theology and practice. They are what their “man’o’gawd” ordained them to be. Perverted Nazi religious bigots and mental terrorists, in “IT” only for the money and the free sex, and the personality cult of a severely mentally ill pervert. They brought nothing to TWIt but their personal hates and fears and pathologies. That’s all they ever “contributed” because that’s all they ever had to “give”. They are the epitome of what a “seared conscience” is and has to offer this world. They are a cancer in the Body of Christ. They are a blight to our nation and to humanity. They are uncharged and unconvicted criminals. They are guilty. Anyone who covers for, protects, excuses, or apologizes fir them is as guilty as they are imo. Lynn, Wrenn, Reahard, Pierce, Walker, Quillen, Frontczak, Barnard,  Finnegan, Moynihans, Forts, Horneys, Joe Block, Maurice Goulet, Terry & Melanie Wilson, MacMullan, Geer, Jerry Carr, Strzepeks, Geer, Backes, and on and on and on. They are all diseased wierwille-worshipping lying cowards and thieves. 

Skyrider is right!

 

I'll say this; you name names. You don;t seperate Barnard, but from the rest of you post I certainly understand why. I recognize several names, including that couple. The reason I mention Barnard is that your grouping him in with the others goes with the fact that to a survivor, ignoring rape/sexual assault/sexual abuse can hurt as much...even more....than the original act. I suppose I should consider my prime assaulter in the "on and on and on" group.

18 hours ago, Rocky said:

Touché. Well, I didn't have or claim preeminence. But I still think your questioning of Skyrider's claim was outrageous.

I think your original analysis is accurate. That is how both cult and sexual assault survivors are called liars. The idea is to throw doubt into the survivor's testimony, and point out all the years that have passed to suggest nobody can remember details that far back. Then, the real key...even if the question is answered ("nope...not once") the accuser(s)' last word is far from being given.

I got my sexual assault at a lower level that fall of 1979 at HQ. I mentioned some things about it yesterday in the language thread, since "loosened up" was specifically said about me. (I was not supposed to hear it said). My main assaulter (not VPW of course) is involved in an offshoot of  sorts to this day. I can't help but wonder if Barnard later had some sort of loosening up in TWI...if he did, he no doubt went along with it instead of running and freezing like I did. 

On 7/18/2019 at 5:34 PM, penworks said:

Hi, this is Charlene Edge who wrote Undertow. Yes, it is true that I included some information on this topic in my book. For a first-hand account from one of VPW's "girls," I always refer people to Kristen Skedgell's memoir, Losing The Way. Also, other women spoke out in another book, by Karl Kahler, called The Cult that Snapped: A Journey Inside The Way International.

Actually, yes, I knew you are the one. And I might have mentioned to you once upon a time that "Losing the Way" is what really opened the door for this then waybrained male to begin believing all the talk about rape and sexual assault I was hearing on these forums, which in turn slowly led me to recalling my own sexual assault all those years ago. And recall it in detail to boot. But it was your relating in "Undertow" of the testimony you got  about how some women were happy to go along that struck home. I had been reading the "talk" on Greasespot about VPW telling LCM he should "loosen up" sexually, so when in 2017 I finally fully recalled my own assault, the term hit me in the face. The two women who assaulted me had obviously assumed it was just a game; corps men couldn;t be hurt by sexual stuff now, could they? In that spirit they told my corps "brothers" about the "event", including a couple of interesting details about what they did and, in one case, what one of them enjoyed. I, having fled and froze in my upper bunk after lights out, heard the men talking about it, not realizing in the dark that I was there. They specifically said that they thought it was good for me to be "Loosened up", specifically using that term.

OK basic question for this topic. What is considered an offshoot and/or TWI related splinter group? My sexual assault happened in TWI, but one of my assaulters is involved in what I would consider one of them. Thus my spending time on this topic/thread. Whether or not a particular group has any TWI-ike sexual activity happening, I am interested in how they view the TWI stuff. Do they acknowledge it while saying they are clean, or do they refuse to acknowledge even the TWI hurts?

On 7/3/2019 at 8:02 PM, Kathy Niclaus said:

Oh yeah, I care a lot, it's true. I am a smart foot though, and don't suffer fools lightly. The older I get the more like my mother I seem to be, it's amazing. Anyway, thank you for your kind observation, and here's one of my usual snarky ones- what was up with them serving coffee AFTER class? It should have been served before class! I have heard the many stories of people nodding off, WC working all day, I mean up at 5, running in the morning,l working all day, then class at night, who needs coffee at night? Sleep! Sleep is needed!

Speaking of coffee, I am on a totally whack sleeping schedule, and am off for my first cup of the day but it has to be decaf............

The coffee was sometimes during breaks as well as after class, but certainly not before. I never got a call to do it before anyway. As for my "caring" remark, caring. as most people realize, caring does not necessarily consist only of sweet words. I have a friend...OK for now a FB fried, but she is a lifelong friend of my best survivor friend...who IMO has a great sensitivity to others who are hurting, and who at times expresses choice words at those doing the hurting. .

On 7/2/2019 at 1:15 AM, WordWolf said:

When vpw told lcm that he (lcm)  wouldn't be able to minister to God's people without "loosening up" sexually, he was recommending that lcm practice sex outside of marriage, and that God was not only OK with it, but that God Almighty was RECOMMENDING sex outside of marriage,  at least for leaders.  

 

 

Thank you. I remember hearing this talked about on GS years ago but I was still waybrained at that time and had not yet recalled my own loosening up, not by my choice. It explained why some Way women went along with VPW's sexual "doctrine" and were glad to serve the "man of God", or help loosen up other leaders, even low level ones like me. Charlene Edge in "Undertow" writes of how she got testimony of how some women went along even as others wee being badly hurt.                                                                                                

19 hours ago, Kathy Niclaus said:

- when Lifted up first threw out the sexual assault remarks, duh, I didn't look to see that his gender was, uh, male. He said it happened in 1979, and it wasn't so much a thing back then for women to be doing the assaulting, so of course I just did the stupid thing and assumed he was a she.

19 hours ago, Kathy Niclaus said:

 

When I first came onto Greasespot, like many getting on after Waydale, I wasn't talking about the sexual assault because I was still Waybrained and had not recalled it. But still, there was no gender listed under names and for whatever reason many assumed I was female. I corrected people on a couple of occasions but did not make a big deal of it. As females doing assaulting, Back then I guess the Way Corps was already getting VPW's "doctrine" that "men of God" (Way Corps) had to have their sexual needs fulfilled so they could properly do their work. I guess that was also roughly the time when, as I heard a lot of talk about in those early Greasespot days, that VPW told LCM he had to "loosen up".  Well, I don't know for sure where the idea came from, but I got that "loosening up", i.e. sexual assault. It surely was just a game to the two involved, largely because of a corps stereotype...SAME one that exists in general society...that men are men and can't be hurt by sex because we are always so sex starved that it is doing us a favor to play those "games" and loosen us up. We talk about there gender stereotypes sometimes in my male survivor support group. But I was deeply emberassed...shamed...as I finally re-lived when I went over the "event" for the first time with my counselor just over a year and a half ago. Here is the clincher: after I finally escaped to my top bunk and re-froze, a little later the other men came in. It was after lights out, so everybody got ready for sleep in the dark. Then they started talking about the event, because the two women had told them all about what happened, again, as if it were a game. The guys did not know I was already quietly frozen in my bunk. Then I heard the them say specifically that it was good for me to be "loosened up".  This is ONLY speculation, but I can't help but wonder if anything like this happened to Victor Barnard, perhaps with him going along with the "games" or "loosening up'" , thus later becoming the prolific abuser that he was in his own cult...and maybe with a lot less skill and authority in hiding the abuse that VPW displayed.

Kathy Niclaus, I am beginning to discover you are quite the caring person. Never mind what you believe or don't believe. And if you feel you made a mistake, maybe is was lack of coiffee's fault LOL! I have to get that in because I was a known lifelong NON coffe drinker, yet I was put in charge of the after-class coffee crew at Emporia for several months. It was during that stint one time that VPW drifted in from his coach and ""invited" (as if I could turn him down) me into the coach to eat a pastry. We didn't chat, I just ate while he worked. I guess they trusted me to make the coffee according to instruction, and figured as a non drinker I would not be tempted to alter its prescribed weakness? (and waste Way resources?)

One more thing. Obviously I was waybrained during my corps time. I think all of us were. I won't go into the details, but I would love to offer forgiveness on this event. But I am not sure it will ever go beyond me writing an unsent letter.

7 hours ago, Kathy Niclaus said:

In 2006 at my one-off visit to CFFM no mention was made of sexual abuse so I can only assume that the splinter groups are taking the convenient route that you describe avoiding the topic and telling people to move on.  Certainly any group that espouses the teachings of the VPW is going to be in denial.

Oh, Kathy, FYI I made a FB friend request, provided it's your page I found. I am really not anxious as to whether you take it or not, but at least yo can know who I am (if you care about that either LOL.)

7 hours ago, Kathy Niclaus said:

In 2006 at my one-off visit to CFFM no mention was made of sexual abuse so I can only assume that the splinter groups are taking the convenient route that you describe avoiding the topic and telling people to move on.  Certainly any group that espouses the teachings of the VPW is going to be in denial.

Kathy, I think it is the same attitude I have seen in non-Way circles. succumbing to the fear of bringing a bad name to the particular group, but having no fear.....i.e. no sensitivity....of hurting again and again those  already hurt. I know  of a survivor who tirelessly fights abuse in churches she is associated with, yet not discarding her faith. Knowing that ignoring hurts destroys peoples' faith, like mine was so damaged in the Way. She is the same lady who was at the forefront of the Michigan tate/USA Gymnastics abuse fightng; Rachael Denhollander.

1 hour ago, Lifted Up said:

Also, when my friend's friend contracted AIDS, my friend demonstrated a much greater lesson on avoiding fear than the Way taught, but never demonstrated. They stayed close friends until his passing. To this day she is a lesson to me in avoiding fear and other things.

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Kathy Niclaus said:

Per the capacity for real care and compassion from non-straight people, and benefitting from it- I have been a tangible recipient

 

Kathy does that mean you also felt the Way taught that non-straight people were not capable of compassion?