Well, not sure how important it is, but maybe I can try to answer the original question this time.
Here's a question:
Why do religious folks seem to spend so much time doing "spin" control for God? You know, explaining why prayers weren't answered, why a good person (or child) died, why such bad things happen to good people, why very specific promises of scripture aren't fulfilled, that sort of thing. Stuff like "Well God had to let - insert horrific calamity here - happen, otherwise he wouldn't be a just God!" (to which I can only respond "Huh?")...
I'm not "implying" it, I'm stating it outright. Religious folks (no, not all of them) often DO make such remarks - very often in fact.
If you don't believe me, just read some more of this same forum. Lots of spinmeistering going on right here, pal. It's almost a prerequisite if one is going to believe the Bible -especially for the more fundamentalist-minded, as the Bible (IMHO) seldom lines up very well with real life...
Cman, do you realize how superior & elitist you sound? Perhaps that's not your intent, but you sure come off that way.
So, do YOU know why God created the devil? Do you have an answer that makes sense & doesn't insult my intelligence? And please, try not to talk down to me; I would appreciate that. If you don't have an answer, just say so; it's okay to not know.
Do what you might do with a novel. Read the first couple pages and the last couple. You'll get the jist.
You know FS, I see that elitest attitude a lot around here and in many religions in general. No offense to anyone, it's just the way it is. I was making a joke of it earlier but the impudence of donig so in the guise of love or in the name of Love as in "the God of", speaks to something very wrong, perhaps on an individual level or on a human level. I don't know, but I do see it as the reason for religion all too often being the wolf in sheep's clothing and for the leverage and control it exerts over so many, so often. Perhaps it is both its appeal and the burn.
If it is not the God that requires so much of you to be known or to respond to you, then it is more of a gnostic higher plane of either intellectualism or lack there of. It is both fustrating and fascinating. Somewhere in there, buried, are good intentions and common threads of humanism, oddly enough.
Re:"God loves a good riddle and a good riddle solved that leads to another."
I would submit that this is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. Spinmeistering to get God off the hook. What does that tell anyone? "God's beyond figuring out?" "There's no rhyme or reason to any of it?""It's all some ethereal guessing game?" Or maybe, "Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, but it's fun to try to connect the loose ends into a tapestry of our own making!"
Cman - "For therein is the devil" - what the he** does that mean? Are you saying that mankind is the devil? The devil is us? This isn't scriptural. And what is all that about riddles?
On second thought, don't respond, since nothing you have said has blessed or enlightened me. I'm really sad that you feel like you have to be so arrogant & taunting.
Lindy, thank you for the link - I will take a look at it now.
Cman - "For therein is the devil" - what the he** does that mean? Are you saying that mankind is the devil? The devil is us? This isn't scriptural. And what is all that about riddles?
From what I can tell, cman and possibly a couple others here believe in a non-dualistic, Christian, immanence. That is to say, that God and the devil and the universe exist within us and the Bible speaks to this . He still believes that God is transcendant but that this is possible through the infinite mind. Therein lies the paradox and the riddle without an end.
There also seems to be an alomst existential emphasis on a subjective reality. So, because of this rule of the subjective over objective rationalism, it seems people do not fully intellectualize their POV outside of their own experience and prehaps, say, the Bible. So this presents a problem in forums such as this, in that it is near impossible for a real conversation of ideas, where both parties understand eachother, to take place. Instead, it takes more time and effort for the one scratching their head to understand the other by observing a collection of posts over a long period of time. Still, this doesn't make it any easier to hold a conversation.
Cman, also at times sounds like a non-dualistic Gnostic. Take a look at the apocryphal Gospel of Phillip. From the G of P:
"Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable. Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death. For this reason each one will dissolve into its earliest origin. But those who are exalted above the world are indissoluble, eternal."
Sound familiar?
Whether or not this is biblical or not is not really the question. After all, what does that mean really, anyway? It is not so much in what it says but in how it is read, or as cman said, "it's not how I sound so much as how it's heard." In other words (my words), it can say whatever you want it to say. The riddle is: how does that make what cman or you or I any more or less right or wrong? The easy answer is it doens't. The problem is we still see people with a singular subjective reality in which all other subjective and objective realities exist and are subject to. It doesn't make sense and it isn't meant to unless you change what you think to what they think....hence the condescension, arrogance, and elitism. Indeed, it would take some humility and meekness (as defined by some) to take this proposition on.
Why do religious folks seem to spend so much time doing "spin" control for God? You know, explaining why prayers weren't answered, why a good person (or child) died, why such bad things happen to good people, why very specific promises of scripture aren't fulfilled, that sort of thing. Stuff like "Well God had to let - insert horrific calamity here - happen, otherwise he wouldn't be a just God!" (to which I can only respond "Huh?")...
geo...and whomever
wondering...do you think/believe there is a rational reason for these views and behaviors?
does it make you kinda crazy because you dont have a rational enough answer?
That's the way I figure it, George. I went looking for 'Him' once. Now it's his turn (though, winning the lottery tonight would really help my unbelief )
I'm thinking there would be a God even without man, since at one time that's how it was.
If I'm understanding scripture correctly, Lucifer existed before us as well.
I don't believe that WE are the reason for their existence, though.
I don't care to focus on the devil; I just want to know why a loving God would create such a creature. It's not like he didn't know what was going to happen next.
Good vs. evil is the overriding context of the bible, with good being triumphant (but at what cost).
If evil had to exist for good to be appreciated, then why not just have neither? No good, no evil, no us. We wouldn't miss it, having never existed. Since we do exist, we get to suffer, & that's where I question the "love of God". Trials that build faith is one thing - terror & suffering of innocents is another, even if their parents are unbelievers.
I did read the entire thread called The Devil that Lindy referenced. It gave me some things to ponder, mostly the idea that there may not be a literal devil at all, but rather our own rebellion against God.
Many believe in a literal devil, though. I just don't know.
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George Aar
Well, not sure how important it is, but maybe I can try to answer the original question this time.
Here's a question:
Why do religious folks seem to spend so much time doing "spin" control for God? You know, explaining why prayers weren't answered, why a good person (or child) died, why such bad things happen to good people, why very specific promises of scripture aren't fulfilled, that sort of thing. Stuff like "Well God had to let - insert horrific calamity here - happen, otherwise he wouldn't be a just God!" (to which I can only respond "Huh?")...
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cman
Why do you George imply that everyone (or as you say 'religious folks') are saying what you say they are saying.
Huh????
If I had the answers I wouldn't give them to someone who does not want them.
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George Aar
Cman,
I'm not "implying" it, I'm stating it outright. Religious folks (no, not all of them) often DO make such remarks - very often in fact.
If you don't believe me, just read some more of this same forum. Lots of spinmeistering going on right here, pal. It's almost a prerequisite if one is going to believe the Bible -especially for the more fundamentalist-minded, as the Bible (IMHO) seldom lines up very well with real life...
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cman
So I should say I don't know when I do.
And just because you don't see the 'bible' lining up with real life doesn't mean someone else doesn't.
The bible isn't understood because few want to understand.
Most want it handed to them, instead of working for it the way it says to get an understanding of it.
Furthermore those who speak words that not only open the scriptures but the heart and life of God, are ignored.
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Free Soul
Cman, do you realize how superior & elitist you sound? Perhaps that's not your intent, but you sure come off that way.
So, do YOU know why God created the devil? Do you have an answer that makes sense & doesn't insult my intelligence? And please, try not to talk down to me; I would appreciate that. If you don't have an answer, just say so; it's okay to not know.
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lindyhopper
All you ever wanted to know but less, might be on the thread I started a while ago, Free Soul.
The Devil
Do what you might do with a novel. Read the first couple pages and the last couple. You'll get the jist.
You know FS, I see that elitest attitude a lot around here and in many religions in general. No offense to anyone, it's just the way it is. I was making a joke of it earlier but the impudence of donig so in the guise of love or in the name of Love as in "the God of", speaks to something very wrong, perhaps on an individual level or on a human level. I don't know, but I do see it as the reason for religion all too often being the wolf in sheep's clothing and for the leverage and control it exerts over so many, so often. Perhaps it is both its appeal and the burn.
If it is not the God that requires so much of you to be known or to respond to you, then it is more of a gnostic higher plane of either intellectualism or lack there of. It is both fustrating and fascinating. Somewhere in there, buried, are good intentions and common threads of humanism, oddly enough.
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cman
Yeah, no one wants their intelligence insulted, can't have that now can we.
Lindy has a grasp on the matter as well as a few here.
God loves a good riddle and a good riddle solved that leads to another.
Why did God create the Devil?
Why did God create Man should be the question.
For therein is the devil. And God. And heavens and earth and all that is within it.
And it's not how I sound so much as how it's heard.
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George Aar
cman,
Re:"God loves a good riddle and a good riddle solved that leads to another."
I would submit that this is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. Spinmeistering to get God off the hook. What does that tell anyone? "God's beyond figuring out?" "There's no rhyme or reason to any of it?""It's all some ethereal guessing game?" Or maybe, "Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, but it's fun to try to connect the loose ends into a tapestry of our own making!"
And I guess you're not even aware of doing it?
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GarthP2000
George,
And when all that song-and-dance fails, there is the good ol', tried n' true guilt tripping, scare tactics!
Ie., "Who are you to question God!? ... Keep this up, and you'll have to answer to God Himself!" and so forth and so on, ad nauseum.
BTW, *great* board upgrade, Paw! :B) Now I can be even more creative with my posts.
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cman
Blameing me for you not knowing something is pretty silly.
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Free Soul
Cman - "For therein is the devil" - what the he** does that mean? Are you saying that mankind is the devil? The devil is us? This isn't scriptural. And what is all that about riddles?
On second thought, don't respond, since nothing you have said has blessed or enlightened me. I'm really sad that you feel like you have to be so arrogant & taunting.
Lindy, thank you for the link - I will take a look at it now.
Happy New Year!
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lindyhopper
FS,
From what I can tell, cman and possibly a couple others here believe in a non-dualistic, Christian, immanence. That is to say, that God and the devil and the universe exist within us and the Bible speaks to this . He still believes that God is transcendant but that this is possible through the infinite mind. Therein lies the paradox and the riddle without an end.There also seems to be an alomst existential emphasis on a subjective reality. So, because of this rule of the subjective over objective rationalism, it seems people do not fully intellectualize their POV outside of their own experience and prehaps, say, the Bible. So this presents a problem in forums such as this, in that it is near impossible for a real conversation of ideas, where both parties understand eachother, to take place. Instead, it takes more time and effort for the one scratching their head to understand the other by observing a collection of posts over a long period of time. Still, this doesn't make it any easier to hold a conversation.
Cman, also at times sounds like a non-dualistic Gnostic. Take a look at the apocryphal Gospel of Phillip. From the G of P:
Sound familiar?
Whether or not this is biblical or not is not really the question. After all, what does that mean really, anyway? It is not so much in what it says but in how it is read, or as cman said, "it's not how I sound so much as how it's heard." In other words (my words), it can say whatever you want it to say. The riddle is: how does that make what cman or you or I any more or less right or wrong? The easy answer is it doens't. The problem is we still see people with a singular subjective reality in which all other subjective and objective realities exist and are subject to. It doesn't make sense and it isn't meant to unless you change what you think to what they think....hence the condescension, arrogance, and elitism. Indeed, it would take some humility and meekness (as defined by some) to take this proposition on.
It is not one I choose take on personally.
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sirguessalot
"From what I can tell, cman and possibly a couple others here believe in a non-dualistic, Christian, immanence."
i could be wrong, but from what i can tell, cman is not limited to the christian context for interepeting his experiences of life
though does not reject it, either
to what depth or degree one can understand him or not is another matter entirely it seems
from my perspective...
there are not only layers and fields and streams and waves of subjectivity
but layers and fields and streams and waves of objectivity
and layers and fields and streams and waves of INTER-objectivity
as well as layers and fields and streams and waves INTER-subjectivity
to reject or otherwise avoid the nature of layers, fields, streams and waves and such in any one of these perspectives
is to close ones self off from the dialogical capacity required to communicate jack sh!t about them
or to either prefer or avoid any one or more of these perspectives to whatever depth or degree
is simply that, to whatever depth or degree
which can be quite painful in ways, or even blissful
either personally
or culturally
but imo, the bandwidth of depth and degrees is likely to be more radical and exotic and quite energetically changing than we are comfortable with
there are vast fields and fields of experience and information and study and knowing that are outside of our bounds
subtlest flickers of attention and intention are often the leaps of faith that reshape our lives
though there are naturally flickers of attention and intention that are simply never made in life
as we often go monolithic and flatline at some narrow perspective for awhile
sometimes even terminally
but from before the time we were born
we have been moving from one false sense of self to another
and for good reasons
and not necessarily false for being untrue
but for being extremely partial in capacity to take more perspectives
...among other things
unable to look = blindness
never having seen something there = darkness
the darkness is not "evil" as the myths tend to say
and mere not looking is surely not-rational either
where pre and post are often both mistaken for the same thing
and rejected for both being non
fields and streams of subjective darknesses and lights
fields and streams of objective darknesses and lights
fields and streams of inter subjective darknesses and lights
fields and streams of interobjective darknesses and lights
all native normal extra ordinary stuff that abounds and abounds and terrifies the crap out of us
in which some drown
and some learn to swim
perhaps even well
some drown in some small fields of objectivity
while some drown in large lakes of subjectivity
and so forth
meanwhile...the silly war of the world views rages on and wastes and wastes and wastes
when the simplest flickers of attention is what often disarms them
i dunno
my 2 cents
interesting thread
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sirguessalot
geo...and whomever
wondering...do you think/believe there is a rational reason for these views and behaviors?
does it make you kinda crazy because you dont have a rational enough answer?
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GarthP2000
I don't think that its George that is going crazy because of this lack of a rational answer.
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sirguessalot
well, why is geo going crazy, then?
or perhaps better...why is he going "huh?"
and/or what do you think his rational answer is?
what is yours?
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cman
Seems i missed all these responses on this thread.
Been working a lot.
Thanks sirg..ugotit dude..
And FreeSoul, if you could not read or add words into my post they may make more sense to you...or not i don't know
If there was not man would there even be a devil?
If there was not man would there even be a god?
Why is it that the devil is focused on?
This is my point here.
Why is there man?
That's the question.
Without man why would there be a god or devil.
Why are they not considered to be something totally different then we were taught?
Why are many staying with the same old god verses devil deal?
People love the us against them characterazations.
And I'm called an elitist? Or sound like one? HaHa...been called worst then that.
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George Aar
Yeah, gosh, SGAL,
I've just been going crazy with such intricate arguments being put forth
First cman, maybe you could explain how you know that there IS a God, a devil, spirit, or any compelling reason to search for one?
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Sushi
That's the way I figure it, George. I went looking for 'Him' once. Now it's his turn (though, winning the lottery tonight would really help my unbelief
)
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Abigail
I can't explain rationally or logically why it is I believe in God. All I can say is I do. For that reason, I don't blame or judge those who do not.
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cman
Hi George,
hmmm no I'll pass on that one.
besides why question my beliefs, or what you think I believe anyway
if you want to listen, fine, but I don't think this is the case
same old analytical, disintegration tactics that are a waste of my time
I will say that I didn't expect what I got.
In fact never considered the idea as I do now.
God, Devil, Spirit....
What do they really mean anyways?
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cman
Plenty, but they would probably be different then others,
or the same also in many ways.
For myself? naaahhhh
I ain't nothin'-just nothin' being able to distinguish something.
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cman
Let me put a simple way Geo,
Let's say there's a God that is simple yet immensely powerful.
And yet so easy to see and let this God work, that it's unbelievable.
I'd have to let that God show you cause I can't.
You look at me through your perception and want me to explain something.
I can speak words but what you do with them is out of my hands.
So I won't just banter and bicker about something you say you don't want anyway.
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Free Soul
I'm thinking there would be a God even without man, since at one time that's how it was.
If I'm understanding scripture correctly, Lucifer existed before us as well.
I don't believe that WE are the reason for their existence, though.
I don't care to focus on the devil; I just want to know why a loving God would create such a creature. It's not like he didn't know what was going to happen next.
Good vs. evil is the overriding context of the bible, with good being triumphant (but at what cost).
If evil had to exist for good to be appreciated, then why not just have neither? No good, no evil, no us. We wouldn't miss it, having never existed. Since we do exist, we get to suffer, & that's where I question the "love of God". Trials that build faith is one thing - terror & suffering of innocents is another, even if their parents are unbelievers.
I did read the entire thread called The Devil that Lindy referenced. It gave me some things to ponder, mostly the idea that there may not be a literal devil at all, but rather our own rebellion against God.
Many believe in a literal devil, though. I just don't know.
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