Which is another way of saying salvation by works.
Well, for myself, I would think that a requirement for believing is a pretty powerful "work," myself. But that's just me...
MarkO: might the whole "mortal sin" thing have something to do with a lower suicide rate as well?
If not for the sacrament of reconcilliation, I'd think it would actually contribute to a HIGHER rate of suicide. (Maybe you're thinking about 'venial' sins)
I thought you might be interested in seeing some guidlines used in Millionth Circle Women's spirituality groups(sacred feminine/goddess/peace/environmental...)
Create a circle.
Consider it a sacred space.
One person speaks at a time.
Speak and listen from the heart.
Encourage and welcome diverse points of view.
Listen with discernment instead of judgment.
Share leadershipand resources.
Decide together how decisions will be made.
Work toward consensus when possible.
Offer experience instead of advice.
When in doubt or need, pause and silently ask for guidance.
Decide together what is to be held in confidence.
Speak from your own experience and beliefs rather than speaking for others.
Open and close the circle by hearing each voice. (Check-ins and check-outs.)
First and foremost, in any group of people who come together more than once for any reason, personal boundaries need to be clearly defined and highly respected.
The first personal boundary to disappear in a group setting is self value.
Little hints show up indicating this decaying boundary...
You worry that your attire isn't quite up to snuff...
You worry that your personal situations are less than others...
You laugh at 'jokes' you find distasteful...
You agree to participate in things you don't enjoy because 'everybody enjoys it!'...
You begin asking others in the group for 'advice' because you feel they have a better handle on life...
And so many more little signs that self value is eroding.
But by the time these little signs add up in one's mind, there's a crisis.
So, imo, the very very very first thing a group must have is respect of the individual.
Now if a group is coming together for the discussion of doctrines, beliefs, etc., like in a fellowship, IF that group begins with clearly established doctrines, beliefs, etc., then that group automatically does not respect the individual.
Which is why all roads tend to lead to Mecca, so to speak, in this instance.
Cool this is Richard
I went back to your post and have been considering it - it stirred a lot up in me.
That respect is paramount in importance. We have a duty to love one another, but that certainly has to be in the context of respecting boundaries and not giving unsolicited or sometimes even solicited advice. Yet there is a process within friendship that I would see as affirmation and encouragement in being there to help a friend over rough spots and help get them back on track and believing in their own good qualities. And that is important - a very delicate process where you help them bring out their best and their own vision, not your agenda for them. You help them share the gifts they already have.
that's a cool thought. i keep thinking about Jesus saying, 'if you love me, feed my sheep.' we are all his sheep, and should be feeding each other, helping each other to grow and flourish under the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
He said it three times. Looks like it was important to him that Peter got the message. Probably a message he'd like us all to get.
Well said 1broken1! Ya know, as believers (we here who are believers), it really is true that we are to fellowship one with another, help eachother in times of need, and even teach and pray together. Some here advocate that any form of a "fellowship" is TWI-ish". but, how then can it be done? It must be able to be done in some simple manner. I am running a fellowship in my home because it is simple and convenient. My son Keanu, has friends who now come, and so does my daughter. My wife has a gal pal who all of a sudden has become a sponge to learn about the Bible and God's gift of holy spirit. It's a recent development, and it has been exciting. It just sort of fell together and is happening.
The fun thing about our little home fellowship is that there is absolutely nothing to join, no classes to take, seminars etc. Just a sweet fellowship with singing and prayer and also we still do manifestations, which has done some serious mind blowing lately. And when peolpe go home, there is nothing expected of them at all. They just had a good time is all.
Certainly no "personal prophesy" though. I just would never trust myself to be "God's mouthpiece" for someone elses life like that. nor do I dispense of much personal instruction other than to encourage and to exhort...
I thought you might be interested in seeing some guidlines used in Millionth Circle Women's spirituality groups(sacred feminine/goddess/peace/environmental...)
Create a circle.
Consider it a sacred space.
One person speaks at a time.
Speak and listen from the heart.
Encourage and welcome diverse points of view.
Listen with discernment instead of judgment.
Share leadershipand resources.
Decide together how decisions will be made.
Work toward consensus when possible.
Offer experience instead of advice.
When in doubt or need, pause and silently ask for guidance.
Decide together what is to be held in confidence.
Speak from your own experience and beliefs rather than speaking for others.
Open and close the circle by hearing each voice. (Check-ins and check-outs.)
Tis is Richard
Bramble thanks for your post. It is another one with much good about it - it shows how adults should respect and treat one another while meeting. It stirred up in me some insights about a few of the things that have gone wrong with organizations in the past including CES.
Strong leader/weak follower orgs do not share leadership beyond a very very small circle. The leaders become responsible not only for admin type tasks like Pawtucket does here but the content as well - which charges the atmosphere and makes sharing difficult and leads to the doctrine cops policing discussions, sometimes even when the cops are wrong. Leaders begin to lead rather than to serve as a servant. Sometimes the wrong person is put into the wrong position which leads to incompetent leading, poor work, as criticism mounts the leader becomes more and more defensive and may begin to twist the facts and even out & out lie. Spiritual nepotism may occur - thank you Abigail - after our dialogue I now understand. Political machinations occur on a regular basis as people vie for power. Leaders get their hands on the mike and then do not want to share it as they must control the message and protect the flock.
Bramble, your principles above develop a group that can avoid many or all of these pitfalls or deal with them effectively if they do appear.
1broken1 just a small joke here: and Satan said to his Leader: lovest thou money Leader? yeah Lord thou knowest I do. Then shear my sheep.
If you ask me, I think too many people make fellowship out to be more than what it is.. Fellowship! WHy redefine the term. Just cause TWI likes to call a fellowship where a meeting with the typical church liturgy is done, doesn't mean we have to run our lives by their definitions.
Heck, I just enjoy fellowship! Fellowship with any and all those who believe. Whether at home, on the road, on the phone, it's fellowship! Course, I know.. It's great to set some time aside where everyone agrees to come together.. But for Fellowship, or for a religious liturgical meeting?
Maybe it's just me, but any fellowshipping I do is dynamic. There are no "rules" of how it is to be done, it's just done and there isn't a heirarchy to climb nor a need for anyone to try and "assert" their power over another. Cause we are just fellowshipping!
Hmm.. Maybe I'm just too simpleminded. Or just plain ignorant. I'll accept both.
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markomalley
Well, for myself, I would think that a requirement for believing is a pretty powerful "work," myself. But that's just me...
If not for the sacrament of reconcilliation, I'd think it would actually contribute to a HIGHER rate of suicide. (Maybe you're thinking about 'venial' sins)
But with the sacrament of reconcilliation...
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Bramble
I thought you might be interested in seeing some guidlines used in Millionth Circle Women's spirituality groups(sacred feminine/goddess/peace/environmental...)
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richnchrispy
Cool this is Richard
I went back to your post and have been considering it - it stirred a lot up in me.
That respect is paramount in importance. We have a duty to love one another, but that certainly has to be in the context of respecting boundaries and not giving unsolicited or sometimes even solicited advice. Yet there is a process within friendship that I would see as affirmation and encouragement in being there to help a friend over rough spots and help get them back on track and believing in their own good qualities. And that is important - a very delicate process where you help them bring out their best and their own vision, not your agenda for them. You help them share the gifts they already have.
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1broken1
R of R&C -
that's a cool thought. i keep thinking about Jesus saying, 'if you love me, feed my sheep.' we are all his sheep, and should be feeding each other, helping each other to grow and flourish under the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
He said it three times. Looks like it was important to him that Peter got the message. Probably a message he'd like us all to get.
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J0nny Ling0
Well said 1broken1! Ya know, as believers (we here who are believers), it really is true that we are to fellowship one with another, help eachother in times of need, and even teach and pray together. Some here advocate that any form of a "fellowship" is TWI-ish". but, how then can it be done? It must be able to be done in some simple manner. I am running a fellowship in my home because it is simple and convenient. My son Keanu, has friends who now come, and so does my daughter. My wife has a gal pal who all of a sudden has become a sponge to learn about the Bible and God's gift of holy spirit. It's a recent development, and it has been exciting. It just sort of fell together and is happening.
The fun thing about our little home fellowship is that there is absolutely nothing to join, no classes to take, seminars etc. Just a sweet fellowship with singing and prayer and also we still do manifestations, which has done some serious mind blowing lately. And when peolpe go home, there is nothing expected of them at all. They just had a good time is all.
Certainly no "personal prophesy" though. I just would never trust myself to be "God's mouthpiece" for someone elses life like that. nor do I dispense of much personal instruction other than to encourage and to exhort...
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richnchrispy
Tis is Richard
Bramble thanks for your post. It is another one with much good about it - it shows how adults should respect and treat one another while meeting. It stirred up in me some insights about a few of the things that have gone wrong with organizations in the past including CES.
Strong leader/weak follower orgs do not share leadership beyond a very very small circle. The leaders become responsible not only for admin type tasks like Pawtucket does here but the content as well - which charges the atmosphere and makes sharing difficult and leads to the doctrine cops policing discussions, sometimes even when the cops are wrong. Leaders begin to lead rather than to serve as a servant. Sometimes the wrong person is put into the wrong position which leads to incompetent leading, poor work, as criticism mounts the leader becomes more and more defensive and may begin to twist the facts and even out & out lie. Spiritual nepotism may occur - thank you Abigail - after our dialogue I now understand. Political machinations occur on a regular basis as people vie for power. Leaders get their hands on the mike and then do not want to share it as they must control the message and protect the flock.
Bramble, your principles above develop a group that can avoid many or all of these pitfalls or deal with them effectively if they do appear.
1broken1 just a small joke here: and Satan said to his Leader: lovest thou money Leader? yeah Lord thou knowest I do. Then shear my sheep.
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TrustAndObey
If you ask me, I think too many people make fellowship out to be more than what it is.. Fellowship! WHy redefine the term. Just cause TWI likes to call a fellowship where a meeting with the typical church liturgy is done, doesn't mean we have to run our lives by their definitions.
Heck, I just enjoy fellowship! Fellowship with any and all those who believe. Whether at home, on the road, on the phone, it's fellowship! Course, I know.. It's great to set some time aside where everyone agrees to come together.. But for Fellowship, or for a religious liturgical meeting?
Maybe it's just me, but any fellowshipping I do is dynamic. There are no "rules" of how it is to be done, it's just done and there isn't a heirarchy to climb nor a need for anyone to try and "assert" their power over another. Cause we are just fellowshipping!
Hmm.. Maybe I'm just too simpleminded. Or just plain ignorant. I'll accept both.
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Bramble
Your fellowshipping sounds warm and positive, Trust&Obey. That's the kind I like, too.
I think alot of trouble can be avoided in more formal settings if people would give up on the pyramid of leadership. Does that ever stay healthy?
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