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Everything posted by 1broken1

  1. "How much can you earn as a Certified Life Coach? - The earning potential you have as a Certified Life Coach with the Life Coach Institute is limited only by how much you choose to work. The average Life Coach in the U.S. today charges from $250 to $750 per month per client. (What you charge will be up to you.) Let’s say you want to earn $4000.00 per month as a coach. To earn that amount you’d need to have just ten full-time clients at an average rate of $400.00 per month, per client. If you charged a higher fee of $650.00 per client, as an example, you would need only six clients to reach your $4,000.00 monthly goal. " Yup, RADICAL METHODS JUST LIKE JESUS WOULD DO!
  2. I have had the same experience - haven't tried all of the above but got the two I tried and had very open discussion. Also spoke with several other friends who have called them (all) to hear the accounts first hand.
  3. I don't want to offend the original (or other) posters either - but I do feel strongly that these programs are counter productive, and as CS noted, 'the same thing over and over.' i think it's been over and over since it was started as EST - I know strong attempts have been made to 'christianize' it, and i don't want to discount the energy and 'good intent' on that, but (IMO) it's based on a bad principles, so ultimately it's not good for people. Here's an interesting quote from the wiki link - "Dr. Michael Langone - Dr. Michael Langone, in an article on Large Group Awareness Trainings (LGATs) (a term which collectively refers to est, Lifespring, and similar encounter groups), states: I know of no research, however, that convincingly demonstrates positive behavioral effects of these trainings. In my opinion, one of the best studies from a methodological standpoint was "Research on Erhard Seminar Training in a Correctional Institution" (Hosford, Ray, E., Moss, C. Scott, Cavior, Helene, & Kerish, Burton. Catalog of Selected Documents in Psychology, 1982, Manuscript #2419, American Psychological Association). Of 313 inmates who volunteered for est training in a Federal Correctional Institution, 150 were randomly selected for the training, while the balance acted as a waiting-list control group and were given scholarships to be used upon release. The groups did not differ on demographics or variables related to criminal history. They were given a full battery of psychological tests and biofeedback instruments, with half of the group pre-tested and half post-tested (to control for the possible contaminating effect of testing). Three-month and 12-month follow-ups were conducted to assess behavioral outcomes (incident reports, furloughs, work performance, etc.). Although the psychological tests reflected some positive change, these self-report changes did not manifest themselves in alterations in physiological measures or in actual behavior. The research and anecdotal evidence seem to indicate that LGATs are very successful at producing positive opinions about the trainings — an outcome that the financial officers of every service business would value. However, whether or not they have a substantial positive effect on behavior that is not due to placebo factors, is still an unanswered question." So the bottom line is it's psuedo-psychology that's not even taken seriously by the psychological community. A very good source for research on LGAT's and all the MANY Lifespring spinoffs is here http://perso.orange.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/
  4. There's another way to look at it, many people don't believe that these programs are the right way to deal with issues in their lives - it has nothing to do with their level of 'maturity' - whatever you mean by that. CS, I'm not saying you are doing this, but it is manipulative to accuse people of not taking a program because they lack maturity and are not willing to take a 'deeper look' into their lives. I've heard this from all the multi-level marketing 'pay-per-use' psycho-babble programs, including the grandpapa of vision quest, EST. For those unfamiliar with the foundation of Momentus, Vision Quest, Life Spring, etc etc - read about it here. It's pretty twisted and the current versions sound ~very similar~. And if you do support Momentus and did have a 'positive experience' with it, I think (IMHO) you have a responsibility to be familiar with it's roots and concepts if you're going to recommend it to others while your are representing Christ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training Here are some testimonials on Life Spring. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifespring Breakthrough. http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/tw_momentus.htm If you think it has changed since then, read about or ask someone about Momentus / Vision Quest. http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/rec_momensumary.htm And now T0cchini's Breakthr0ugh Training is offered through ACCD, the Associati0n for Christian Character Devel0pment. http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/200 "The Training Series consists of the Discovery Seminar, Breakthrough Training, and The Clearing. We also offer the One Accord Workshop for married couples. Each of these unique experiential events are designed to produce maximum transformational growth in a short period of time. In addition, we have a one day workshop, Imagine.The Clearing is available to Breakthrough Grads. We also have a two day workshop for men, My Father's Eyes." I know I'm boring, but Biblical growth always seems to look like, 'a tree planted by the river of living water.' No one likes to watch a tree grow, or paint dry, it's very boring, and also not 'maximum transformational growth' but it is in the bible, like God having people sit in a desert for 40 years, or Jesus preparing for 30 years to minister for 3. Here is a 2007 initiative from ACCD off their website. "Public Relations Initiative - Walk out Matthew 18 initiative for every online ACCD detractor. Prepare to litigate against those who print defamatory content about ACCD online, and are unwilling to walk out Matthew 18 regarding this offense, and proceed accordingly, as needed." Litigation is completely against 1 Cor 6:1-8, as has come up in the CES/STFI MG discussions. Kind of disconcerting that people want to jump to litigation for online detractors, gosh, like um, hmmm... like this site has been for other groups. This is not like litigation because someone took stole your money or swiped a deed from a widow, this is people threatening to sue other Christians who were involved in the program and airing their concerns to other Christians. These are the people that DEVELOPED the program. If and when people are ready to confront the 'crap' that lives in them churches should take a Biblical approach starting with calling on Jesus. People call Momentus a 'training course' - what does it train you in? What does it train you to do? If it is an approach to pursue Godliness is it found in the Bible? Does it replace the Bible and a relationship with Jesus? Are you instructed to do the Biblical things first, and then do this, or do them both, or primarily focus on the 'training?' Can you picture Jesus as a Momentus trainer or attendee yelling at you and telling you to punch a pillow and yell at your parents? Honestly I cannot. There are plenty of worldly programs that offer 'results' that have nothing to do with the Bible, and programs that claim to change believers and unbelievers alike are certainly not doing it by the transforming of their minds (biblically) or the power of the holy spirit. Churches should teach the Bible and help people get to know Jesus.
  5. Totally, completely, absolutely agree. There's enough 'reality' to bring to God every day without having to force some.
  6. Can you please elaborate on what you mean in the above quote, bold section?
  7. Whether they are elders or not, there is a remedy for confronting the sin publicly, then, as far as expecting an apology there's a least the above standard of verses 20 and 21.
  8. 1 tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
  9. I've already done that for many years thanks. Are you saying that if I go to church I don't know what life can and should be like?
  10. I can tell you why some in my family and others I know went right from one twi offshoot to the next, and then again - because the doctrine that the trinity is 'demon inspired' and anyone who believes it is 'demonized' prevented them from ever stepping foot in a church. And when I went to church it generally ENDED most communication they'd have with me including my family. Your experience may differ, but the few people I've seen actually make it to 'regular church' (which has totally blessed them) took a long time to get there and I believe God doing a MIGHTY work to remove the BS from their heart. Not just 'right doctrine' arrogance but a lot of fear. That's why people that I know and meet in splinters have really in earnest tried to make them into a 'normal' church but with a unitarian view. They have a hard time singing 'blessed trinity' during worship and having people in church tell them they're not saved. My experience is that I've not had any problem sharing my views in 'normal' church - first, I've changed a lot of my views, second, many of the differences rarely come up because (like most twi doctrine) it's really got very little practical day-to-day application, and when it has come up at all most people shrug and say, 'that's different' and that's the end of it. But I think frankly some people are AFRAID to try a regular church because they've become convinced they will be attacked as cult members and harassed for their view of Jesus. I think it's great that GS exists even just to prove its tagline (we left and we're not only alive, but blessed and prosperous) and maybe it's good that half the posts towards CES'rs have been 'sorry to hear that' while the other half have been 'you deserved what you got, see if LCM is still available to take over.' Maybe people need their cages rattled to that extent - who knows. Were if not for the anonymity aspect, I think it would be great to have a post listing churches you are involved in where you have seen personally that people will be loved and accepted *even if they are open about their beliefs*. If this already exists somewhere it might really help people. I talked to one young friend in another state for SIX MONTHS before he was comfortable TRYING a local church where he didn't know anyone and didn't want to lie to people about what he believed. He was afraid of exactly what you think he'd be; trinity, slain in the spirit, singing worship songs that he didn't agree with, getting harassed because of his beliefs - he grew up *completely* in twi and offshoots his *entire life*. He's barely 23 so you can't really razz him about how he's hanging on to the way days - he's a next gen legacy of the way imploding and there are a LOT like him that grew up in families still trying to recover their lives. There are hundreds of active youth still in CES. He has started going to a local church (finally) but then his car broke down. He's now getting a ride with a neighbor who happens to go there - but maybe you get my point - he probably would have gone 6 months ago if he knew there was someone in his area that he trusted even a little that said, 'hey come with me, this church is cool.' The call from 'therebutforgrace' and others for *prayer* for the people dealing with this is real - real lives at stake and an opportunity for real chains to get broken.
  11. (and another thing) :D to further clarify - i think one of the sickest and saddest twi legacies was breaking of families and ignoring the needs of those at home, like the kidlets. it's cool to hear from several of you that you put 110% emphasis on that in your post-twi life. took me way too long to figure it out, but better late than never! night all!
  12. Skyrider, I should not have just said, "i don't think anyone would call that quitting." My REAL feelings are that your choice as described is the FAR BETTER one, and I have repented often of not making it soon enough and often enough. Our "real ministry" is what's in front of our eyes all day long and I don't need another book or a fearless leader to explain. Someone asked Colin Powell how he rose to the top military position he was in and he said, "I never walked passed an obvious need without doing something about it, and for some reason they just started promoting me." Exchathedra / Tonto - no worries for the confusion and no apology needed, but thanks for the clarification. Uptown1 (not to be confused with 1broken1) - i went back and read your posts and in general you seem to be saying things like, I'm not sure what the disagreement with you on that would be, and if your personal experience is that you've seen ex-way people who 'gave up' I would say I've seen a lot of that too. There seem to be some people here who are strong exceptions to that in this 'community' and people who have moved on in life, which is great. Hopefully we can get some grace for our skepticism that many twi people just got so hurt and burned they bailed for good. All - I am a little new to GS, but I have noticed (it seems) that if I leave a sentence open to more than one way of interpretting it, the strongest 'negative' way seems to be how it's received. I am open to discussion, debate, alternative, agreement, but several times I just get snapped retorts about my assumed ignorance. :huh: Is it just me?
  13. Thank you. He died while still in a little splinter and we didn't talk for the last two years because his 'pastor' said I was possessed. I got to spend about two good months with him as he shut down and passed away (he was still my best friend!). I was really thankful for that time and know for sure it was a total gift from God. It was hard to go back and be in that environment while he died but he welcomed me back which was really unbelievable.
  14. I'm not 'deciding' if they are or not. Really not sure what you're talking about. Tonto / Excathedra - are you saying it shouldn't bother me to see people I love (LIKE MY FAMILY) with wrecked lives from bad decisions and hurt from a living in a cult? Are you serious???
  15. I had a dear friend from TWI who passed away December 05 and I still think about him everyday and miss him like crazy. He lead me to the Lord and gave me a place to stay and food to eat, aside from teaching me to pray, read the bible and try to love people. Another friend and I were both excommunicated from a twi splinter. Iwent first and we didn't talk for about a year and he went and then we became closer than brothers. It is that way today although we are many states away. Those are the two closest, outside of my wife, who left 'normal' church started our married life with me in a splinter. Not sure what she was thinking, but thank God He sent her!
  16. skyrider - i don't think anyone would call that quitting at all. i think that's the right thing to do (the Godly thing to do), especially the family part.
  17. So, we're also told to make disciples of all men. There are about a billion ways to do this without being a pastor (and yes many look mundane). Jesus calls people into his body for a reason - and they are all different with different functions. You can't say one is important and one isn't, it's like looking at an army and saying the sharpshooters are more important than the cooks - try being in the army without eating for a couple of weeks and then see if you still agree. But not everyone can honestly look at their lives and say they are doing whatever that 'thing' is. There are ex-twi people i've read even on this site that don't consider themselves christians 'anymore' so i would have to say that Biblically they are not living according to their 'calling'. Also people who have tried going to church but can't because they won't shut up about some divisive doctrinal issue that is burned in their brain from TWI as the MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER so they stay at home and I KNOW FOR SURE that they don't even read their Bibles anymore. I know plenty of people (sadly even a couple of close family members) that are on divorce 2, 3, 4 and just rant on about 'grace' - frankly i wish they would stay away from the church because they hurt others continually. Some in dallas that sat around smoking d*pe until they died. there's also some that read their Bibles and pray but won't talk about Jesus or fellowship (foresaking the assembling together?). Are you guys saying everyone you know from TWI is living according to their calling? If that's true i am really happy to hear that. my experience is that it's been the strong minority.
  18. Gomer - i would have been comfortable if they waited for the board meeting to figure out exactly 'what the ____ was going on and what to do about it' and then put out some statement or something, but looks like people were fired / forced / resigned at least many weeks back and no notification (?). I think people supporting the ministry should have had some kind of notification that the CEO was fired for sure. As for some of the other stuff I guess they had to wait until the board meeting (not sure?) to have everybody choose their actions and make them official before it would have made sense. I do feel after reading through the docs, the threads, the comments and talking to people by phone that there has been just a ton of glossing over other situations that would have been a DEAD GIVEAWAY to many that can still smell 'cult' a mile away. It's like when you quit smoking all of a sudden you get super spidey sense of smell when people a mile away smoke. That's why it's a bit of a shock to me that some of the folks on the BOD are shocked / taken aback (and I truly believe they are) by what's happening now because people have raised these concerns for some time.
  19. as far as momentus, please throw out the baby with the bathwater, the tub, soap and anything else. funny story there. i remember standing by 'the right rev.'s ___ and ___ at a conference as they discussed how they needed to 'incorporate' some of the (trademarked and copyrighted) momentus 'training' into a CES leadership class (can you say 'borrow'?). but the big problem was that the 'leader' they needed for the initial training was a 'real a$$h0l_.' made me wonder if the training was so good why the leader was an a$$___. if the training was so good why were the 'trainees' still calling people a$$___, and about 100 other questions that came up. sadly it was 'genuinely' seen as something that would 'help people' and 'save year working through personal problems' like it obviously did not for the guy who ran it. but that's a HUGE issue for me with this stuff. there are no shortcuts and real healing comes from HIM, not THEM. it was also not really about helping people. it was about 'creating leaders quickly' so the 'ministry' could grow. but really the new snakeoil, and the new 'mark and avoid' is the psychology. you want to totally kick somebody's legs out from under them if they're standing in your way? start a rumor or report at a 'leadership retreat' that the person needs, 'counseling.' everyone will sadly nod, 'oh gosh that's too bad.' then take a seminar and declare yourself 'trainers' so you can judge when people are 'ready' to do things, and please do NOT use the Bible as a standard because this will merely get in the way. you've seen it mentioned several times in multiple threads here. i would be skeptical to hear it from a PSYCHOLGIST, but it was obviously common Indy culture for staff to CONCLUDE that people like E Lynn need 'counseling.'
  20. And God will also ultimately restore this broken world to a shiny new one. He does a lot of restoration. I didn't read that uptown1 was equating israel and ces - just an example of God 'restoring' a group. My 'restoration' post was talking about starting with the people. Sorry if that was not clear. I was trying to make the point that (i think) different orgs have different flavors, just like Moses and David were different people and both beloved by God. My point was that as a 'group' I think the CES culture had some really unique qualities that are a blessing when used to glorify God. Stubborness and Persistence are really very similar just the heart is different. I am hoping that the unique qualities that are manifested in the culture of CES can be saved, by the 'leaders' bringing the whole thing to the altar. Otherwise I'm sure people who want to serve will find churches, like many CES people already do - God will open a door. It wasn't until recently that CES was acting like an 'all or nothing' (you have to see me exclusively) group. this was with the STFI change. during CES you could be an 'affiliate.' you could still supposedly bring your home group in as an 'affialite' today, but if you're involved in another church then discussions of your 'allegiance' would be brought up.
  21. "Who can endure a doctrine which would allow only dentists to say whether our teeth were aching, only cobblers to say whether our shoes hurt us, and only governments to tell us whether we were being well governed?" - C.S. Lewis
  22. Hi Uptown1. My Opinion for what it's worth. I think God can redeem anything - in the sense or definition of 'restoration,' to bring something back to it's former condition or to it's full potential. I'll use the word redeem because it caries the sense of restoring by paying a price. I don't think God wants a bunch of westernized robots for Jesus, with twi mustaches, but instead wants to redeem us as we are, including our uniqueness and weakness. Look at all the colorful qualities of the people in the Bible - God didn't turn David "into" a Moses, they were David and Moses, completely different but beloved in God's eyes. People at CES (like everywhere else) are 'broken' in a broken world and full of weaknesses. But at CES and formerly TWI, I have met some of the most passionate and giving people I've ever met in my life. Yes I know people got screwed in the WOW program, but I've never met anyone outside of that who would jump in a car with $10 or hitchhike across the country to go start a fellowship. I'm not saying I approve of or appreciate the program, I'm just talking about the heart of the people. I still feel that way. I know people have abused PP, but I know people who haven't. I know church people who don't care and will never try - even though doing it the 'right way' could bring huge deliverance to people, most just really don't care to pursue a life spending the time to even see if it's possible. I know people in CES, CI, AG and other places that go out on a limb to TRY and go where they think the Lord is leading them. I'm not trying to romanticize the situation, I just have to tell you that there are some people involved in CES that would give you their last dollar, plane ticket, gas money or thanksgiving dinner (you know who you are!) to see someone be blessed and to try and heed God's call. When I put aside the times I've seen wrong done that's what I think of when I think of people I've met through CES. But don't get me wrong, God does not ~NEED~ CES, but I think it is His wonderful heart to take whatever we bring to the table and make it beautiful. If we bring a bucket of dirt He will use it for roses. There is a website called www.brokenwalls.com run by Christians that are aboriginal people's of the Americas. One of their CD's is drum worship with songs like, "Jesus died that I might live," and, "Holy is Jahweh." God did not "convert" them to look and act like us, but REDEEMED their hearts and culture for him. I read the quote from the CD and think about the areas I think CES has fallen down in it's philosophy - "It brings much liberty to those bound in religious thinking when the truth is placed before them. True worship comes from the heart (not the drum, guitar or any instrument) and when this is explained and demonstrated in worship, a wonderful liberty prevails with by products of restoration of self respect and dignity. “They shall know the truth and the truth shall set them free.” I pray that those whose hearts have been tainted by the “colonial gospel” that says, “You must give up your sin stained culture and embrace my sin stained culture in order to know Jesus,” won’t stop you from reaching those out there who are lost and dying." the “colonial gospel” that says, “You must give up your sin stained culture and embrace my sin stained culture in order to know Jesus,” It's not BECAUSE of our particular sin stained culture that people are lead to Jesus, it's IN SPITE OF IT by God's mercy and grace. It's not really just about 'people' or an 'organization' - we're supposed to assemble together, and there's no such thing as an org without people. The hearts of the people together are a community and a community has a culture. People were drawn to CES for good and bad reasons, but I think mainly because they saw a place that looked like it could be home for the kind of person they were, to more fully express their walk with God and explore a lifetime of worship, working together to SUPPORT EACH OTHER to fully manifest their individual call by the Lord and placement into his body. I know a charismatic Catholic who has been to every denomination and 'get's it' as far as you or I might consider 'right doctrine,' but he found his home in the catholic church as a deacon, lay minister for 'lifer' prisoners, and feeding the poor through catholic missions on his business trips to India. God bless him, and thank God the body is so diverse that there's a home for everyone who seeks the face of God 'early' as it says in Psalms. They will find Him DESPITE the sin stained culture that surrounds them. I would love to see the culture of CES brought before the altar as a sacrifice - a willingness to give up the whole package to get a better one back. Sometimes it just feels like being a little kid clutching a penny in our fist and God wants to hand us a fiver but we're just not letting go of our shiny penny. Seems like a lot to let go of before we can get something better, but it really just seems that way. What God offers is always better than what we can scrape together with our little programs.
  23. Tzaia - since you and Mark have spoken recently I'm trying to better understand his position in regards to this statement - Is the 'starting over in your 50's' why Mark feels justified to bring a lawsuit? I'm sure that he has 'weighed and prayed' through some of the obvious verses on this but it's hard to see it from here and I have not spoken with him recently. 1 Cor 6:1-8 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. It's to our shame that there's not even one we consider wise enough among us to bring the issue to for judging, it could even be the 'least esteemed' among us, and finally even if you're right and there's no resolution, verse 7 says it's better to be defrauded than to take your brother to court. Seems that if it applied to anyone it would be a church president, board members and staff. Did he confirm whether or not he had the option for paid leave but chose to turn it down to 'start over' or does he feel he was forced? Why then the defamation suit and not some kind of wrongful dismissal? With the limited information we have and also knowing all the people involved it's hard to see how there could not have been any other resolution than this (?). If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
  24. Tzaia - I'm really not following some of your points very well, although you sound like you're trying to approach this with moderation and without strong bias based on your firsthand knowledge from your tenure. It sounds like you really believe the root of this and the people leaving is Jeff, but you did not mention Rachel and Matthew. Also Jeff's fault IYO or tied into this issue? Stones, Carlsons, Bob, etc? There's a longer list that's been discussed in some of the other threads if you also include people outside the office who've gone on. Do you really believe the root of this was all conflict with Jeff causing division in the office and therefore perhaps throwing Mark out of his management element or ability to focus on his pastoral role? Also your comment about Jeff having a problem with 'strong women' in times of conflict also confused me. From everything you've said, your opinion is that he has a problem with 'strong everyone' and 'weak everyone' and 'just plain everyone' so were you signifying something additional by that observation? Are you saying that this issue with KA was because he has a problem with everyone, with women, with KA? I don't want to make assumptions about what you meant because it seems a little politically charged to phrase it in that way once you've already said he pretty much can't work with anyone but I don't want to put words in your mouth. You also mentioned or inferred problems in the office because KA is a strong woman - although not employed by STFI or working in the office (?) so I'm not sure how that conflict manifested in office business with Jeff? It sounded like perhaps you personally felt forced out by Jeff and not protected by Mark's oversight of the office during his management - I may be going out on a limb but do you consider yourself a strong woman that had conflict in the office for that reason? Also from what we know Mark still fired Dan, whether he's paid or not. I don't get how the paid part makes it any different. Certainly there's a large (larger?) financial consideration for someone to close up shop and move in to Indy from another state as a volunteer. Some of the statements like that make your analysis seem a little biased (?) but I'm not sure that's what you meant. Although I don't know all the details, I think it's just as harsh to fire the unpaid CEO that moved to Indy as a volunteer as someone local? Is that what you meant? If the reasons for the termination were valid then it's really an irrelevent distinction, but right now that seems to be one sides opinion versus another. Would appreciate the clarification - thanks! "This year, or this month, or, more likely, this very day, we have failed to practise ourselves the kind of behaviour we expect from other people." - C.S. Lewis
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