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1broken1

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Everything posted by 1broken1

  1. I mean really one guy in the band has such a robotic smile he looks like an animatron from Disney's Country Bear show, on crack.
  2. i just went to here http://www.theway.info/Current/Blossom/BlossomHi.htm and listened to (roughly) a 'music video' (?) - 'the way of peace' which certainly was a unusual mix of pink, blue, 60's, 70's, 80's, lawrence welk meets the stepford wives, perfectly timed lounge music with very big staged smiles and excellent eye contact with the audience yet somehow completely uninspiring in it's blandness. almost a whole new level of passion without emotion. i think it actually gave me a headache of somekind (for real), like my brain is stuck in neutral revving and one of my eyes is itchy. ... meanwhile back on earth ...
  3. Tzaia well that's ONE definition of betrayal, but consider the following: from what everyone can ascertain from the documents and the threads with personal reports from people's actual similar experiences, and people's firsthand knowledge of the character, behavior and history of those staff members directly impacted - many of whom are known personally by many people here - i think we'd have a fair shot at believing they may have been betrayed. wrongful dismissal could potentially bring suit against the ministry, a betrayal to all those who have worked to support it's goals. right now it is hard for anyone to be 'enlightening' to others in this whole affair because of the secret 'inner circle' nature of how things have been run and are being run during these changes - it's only gossip outside of Indy, inside of Indy it's 'private leadership meetings.' definitions of gossip have been badly misused - but missusing scripture is another issue. 1 tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. 22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. it appears that verses 19-21 were attempted - perhaps that's a matter of opinion but your definition of 'betrayal' seems to involve the idea of people not knowing what's going on, but we need to know the details of why people are suddenly gone. we have a moral obligation to stop support of something that may be seriously wrong, unbiblical and sinful based on verse 22. people supporting CES with their lives and their money need to know about what seems to be *sheer craziness* going on, people really need to understand why they are seeing friends fired and 'resigning.' there are folks concerned that their kids were just at LOL right in the middle of this affair that they didn't know about - that's not right to withhold from them. i would like to be enlightened as to how 1 Cor 6:1-8 fits in with bringing a lawsuit against the board of directors and staff from a church, which could be seen as betrayal to the people (and longtime friends) involved in the suit, and also could be seen as betrayal to the supporters of CES based on how the lawsuit could impact the ministry. 1 Cor 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. i would like to hear that explanation, especially verse 8, 'Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.'
  4. Thanks Belle. You can imagine I don't get invited to a lot of parties either. There are some pretty morbid sections of scripture too and those that follow Jesus as leaders can have a pretty heavy earthly price to pay. 'Wash feet, die for people' was supposed to be in contrast to the current situation of 'Make up your own stuff, ignore clear scripture, be a full time paid 'minister' and then sue people' leaving as big a trail of firings and division as possible, then probably go start another one. Even Paul worked for a living - I wonder why there's not a 300 page book on that?
  5. WB - I'll just go back to my prior post which seems to say it all. "I'll keep it short and sweet -- Family. Religion. Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business." - Montgomery Burns
  6. 1 Corinthians 6:1-8 DARE ANY OF YOU, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I SPEAK TO YOUR SHAME. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. WHY DO YE NOT RATHER TAKE WRONG? WHY DO YE NOT RATHER SUFFER YOURSELVES TO BE DEFRAUDED? 8 NAY, YE DO WRONG, AND DEFRAUD, AND THAT YOUR BRETHREN. Well, retaining counsel to defend those named in this work related set of incidents should pretty much KILL all available funds for the ministry as I'm sure everyone knows. And in several of the letters there are potential cases for counter suits of wrongful dismissal, or can you say EMOTIONAL DISTRESS? Holy crap. Cover story Indy Daily News, "Local CULT Sued for Emotional Distress by Former Employees." 1 Cor 6:7 And who was managing the finances? Oh right, Tom. That definitely won't look like a conflict of interest that he's on Mark's 'side.' Mark could also be personally sued with his wife and employed children in a CIVIL suit, AND the ministry could go completely under. Wow that's great. What another loving example of Christianity in action. "Yes your honor, then they told me I was possessed by the devil and shunned me. My whole life your honor and all my friends." That'll sound great on CNN. Wait until Elizabeth Lynn's letter is brought into evidence! My goodness, someone needs to sell this story to the "Woman Channel" and make a billion dollars. "Caught in a Cult - The E Lynn Story." I bet there are a million people who would love to hear this story to TRASH THE LORD. Defamation of character, for JESUS! 1 Cor 6:7 What defames people's character WAS and CONTINUES TO BE their ACTIONS. I'd ask for a REFUND but I prefer to remember that giving to God is my responsibility, how people choose that money be spent is between them and GOD. So let's start by taking every conflict resolution teaching you got in the mail from CES and throw it in the trash. Obviously this is how to handle it. Get emotional, prophecy against people and put 'thus saith the Lord on it,' hold your ground and do not back down (important for later legal battle), do not under any circumstance forgive or seriously take it to the Lord, and make sure you document everything! I wonder if the conclusions of the prophetic counsel will hold up in court? Sadly there is ONE JUDGE they will be brought before - everyone ready for that? Then think about the 'cultivating wholeness' journey, sponsored mainly by your friends on Team Clergy. If you really want to clean your flesh, stick a water hose in your ear and turn it on full blast. Remember those times at conferences, and listening to tapes and talking to people when 'something just didn't seem quite right?' That was GOD telling you it WAS NOT QUITE RIGHT. Learn to hear THAT VOICE and OBEY IT. In response to the Clergy Letter – re-read your submittal of the young persons dream. It says that the MARK SIDE was not right – choosing the WRONG WAY TO HANDLE THE SITUATION. The young person keeps wondering, β€œis this the right way to handle this?” 1 Cor 6:7 Sorry to see that the focus is once again not on the people who were recruited as followers. Here should be evidence of FRUIT for anyone listening - momentus and other worldly programs including psychology do not bring real wholeness, healing or deliverance. People who lead and create these programs have real issues just like you do and going on a retreat to get a plaque with your name on it doesn't change that reality. Wash feet, die for people. Wash feet, die for people. Wash feet, die for people. I know it's not as fun sounding as the new kinds of religions we can invent on our own, but if you do that then CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE. Christ washed feet, and died for people. Say it with me now, "WASH FEET, DIE FOR PEOPLE." What part of wash feet and DIE FOR PEOPLE is not being understood here?
  7. Sushi - in chaste acclamation I chuckle! In wondering how the board meeting went today, I present the following Simpsons quotes that seem somehow fitting: -- Marge: Homer, a man who called himself "you-know-who" just invited you to a secret "wink-wink" at the "you-know-what". You are certainly are popular now that you've become a Stonecutter. Homer: Oh, yeah. Beer busts, beer blasts, keggers, stein hoists, AA meetings, beer night. It's wonderful, Marge. I've never felt so accepted in all my life. These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined. -- Homer: I'm not a bad guy! I work hard, and I love my kids. So why should I spend half my Sunday hearing about how I'm going to Hell? -- Krusty: So, have a merry Christmas, a happy Hanukkah, a kwaazy Kwanza, a tip-top Tet, and a solemn, dignified, Ramadan. And now a word from MY god, our sponsors! -- Homer: I've always wondered if there was a god. And now I know there is -- and it's me. -- Homer: Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Mr. Burns: I'll keep it short and sweet -- Family. Religion. Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business. -- Chief Wiggum: I hope this has taught you kids a lesson: kids never learn. -- Sideshow Bob: Because you need me, Springfield. Your guilty conscience may force you to vote Democratic, but deep down inside you secretly long for a cold-hearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king. That's why I did this: to protect you from yourselves. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a city to run. -- Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer: I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead. -- Homer: Boy, I want to share something with you: The three little sentences that will get you through life. Number 1: Cover for me. Number 2: Oh, good idea, Boss! Number 3: It was like that when I got here. -- Burns: Smithers, I've been thinking. Is it wrong to cheat to win a million-dollar bet? Smithers: Yes, sir. Burns: Let me rephrase that. Is it wrong if I cheat to win a million-dollar bet? Smithers: No, sir. Who would you like killed? -- Homer: When will you people learn? In America we stopped using corporal punishment and things have never been better. The streets are safe, old people strut confidently trough the darkest alleys and the weak and nerdy are admired for their computer programming abilities. So, like us, let your children run wild and free, for as the Bible tells us, "Let your children run wild and free." -- Today is a day for prayer, and tomorrow.
  8. Ok - don't hold back! How do you really feel? PURGE PURGE PURGE! "Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. " - Homer Simpson
  9. groucho - i don't know if it's 'doctrine' but i think the reported symptom is stuff like this - when weirdness with a 'feminine person' is confronted the first assumption is that the person 'must have a problem with women leaders.' not sure if it's feminism so much or the pendulum swinging the opposite direction for women who were abused and trashed at twi, then passing this to the next generation as 'liberation.' '10 lies the church tells women' is like the first search result for the word 'women' on TorT - there are many refutes of this work being unscholarly that are written by women, not to say that women have not been mistreated by churches (who hasn't) but i think what people have observed and are reporting here in different ways is an unhealthy response to fear, hurt, pain, and suffering with some of the women within the leader community - that is manifested in how decisions within the church are made, by women in those positions. also that there is maybe too much latitude allowed when they 'freak out' because they are 'still operating from a deep woundedness.' sadly it is now these same women who seem to be strongly complicit in these acts toward ELynn. i think this shows it's ultimately not a man woman thing, so much as 'people behaving badly.'
  10. At this point people need to be absolutely alerted so they can be aware of what they're involved in and supporting - it's not gossip it's a warning. It also goes without saying that people need to know there's an issue so they can be in prayer for resolution, restoration and healing, for the introduction of more light. This kind of junk pops out of an infection that's been festering, which opens a time for healing or a more serious infection. Also the Berwid's are signed on that clergy report and have been in the middle of the neo-momentus AND marriage seminars. Not sure what fruit those programs are producing after reading through these sad letters. Click here to read about Indy Momentus Version 1.0. It might not be called momentus anymore but they're still doing the Lifeboat excercise. Can you picture Jesus running this class? If not then that's probably an indicator of whether or not to keep it. 'Ok Judas, punch your pillow and yell at your parents. Now we're going to do the lifeboat excercise.' A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
  11. Maybe it's just me, but a lot of these letters seem to be letting Mark off the hook to some degree like being "inordinately affected by Karen." I'm not even sure why something would be phrased that way. Anybody can be influenced by other people - the issue at hand is very specifically what people themselves are doing, especially adults and people who have 'ascended themselves' to leadership. Accountability!
  12. LOL - yeah - i love how paul starts off as the 'least of the apostles' and after 35 years 'promotes' himself to the 'chiefest of sinners.' 2,000 years and we're still human after all - same problems humanity has always faced - Thank God HE had a plan for redemption.
  13. no problemo. actually would like it brought up if you see a wee bit a the ole' irish in my rantings - just want to make sure it was clearly understood first. 'the beatings will continue until the morale improves.'
  14. in addition to the Prophetic Council (picture the Jedi Knight roundtable?) there had also been an imposition of extra-biblical standards and requirements from some camps. i say that this too was elevated above the standard of the word, because it was made equivalent to the word. things like momentus (call it whatever you want - it was still momentus), 12 steps, counseling, group therapy, often in alignment to what MG was having to study in school. these things were being incorporated into many areas and the buzz was that they would be 'required' for ordination and leadership positions. also people that completed them walked away with false authority 'over' others when they became 'group leaders' for the next program - like they could judge which programs YOU needed to be in because they now had some more earthly knowledge (gnosis). you could see this filling some empty hole left in a heart by insecurity or a feeling of having sqandered so many years in TWI and not having a career or completed an educational program. danger will robinson. the continued justification for these programs that i had heard were the 'strong results.' i object. anthony robbins can charge $50,000 for an evening and get a group of realestate developers from florida to walk on hot coals, speak up boldy in negotiations, and leave their spouse for the 'right relationship.' they all think they got some serious results too but it doesn't have anything to do with the Bible. the grand results that the world will settle for cannot be compared to what God offers through Christ. the sides of this programatic approach seemed to be primarily divided along the same lines as the board split. several of those who appear to be the prevailing 'post-vote' board members have already spoken against the elevation of programs over a bible based standard. considering that some people regularly going to 12 step meetings can report that speakers often speak against christianity as 'not ever helping them' i can only hope this 'counsel' gets reappraised. real deliverence comes through Jesus.
  15. hi sushi - i guess even using homer simpson for my avatar doesn't communicate the sarcasm in my typing - but that was the point. it is very arrogant to assume that if something looks different then God is not working. that was the point of that whole post, that if I see something different in another church, like people using the phrase, "God is in control" (the context of this thread) - they are often not ~wrong~ at all, just communicating differently, which I see when I stop and take the time to look. I will say though that in the context of this whole "CES is in a mess" I will gladly say I think people are wrong, and out of line and hurting each other, and misusing the Bible and the prophetic. As you above are telling me I may be wrong, I think there are certainly times to say it.
  16. With all the winds of doctrine, following Paul or Apollos instead of Jesus, false prophecies, ravening wolves, false witness, adultry, divorce, ignoring the poor and the widows, false brethren, doctrines of devils, foresaking the assembly of the saints, hardened hearts, "puffing up" and other such, I thought we HAD actually returned to the first century church.
  17. TB4G - thank you - glad to be here. Should have made it clear that my point was not really refuting a previous post as much as ranting - I think I'm more agreeing with Caribousam than not - it's a matter of semantics. I think it's VERY important to understand where people are coming from before I try to tell them they're wrong, especially the 'body of Christ at large' where God's work is really evident when I stop and take the time to look. Then secondarily, even if I think they ARE wrong, it's important to understand the value of trying to correct them. Like what is my real motivation, my heart. And what does GOD have to say about it? I think when I left TWI my mindset would have been to walk into a church wearing a t-shirt that said, "the trinity is stupid, you're an idiot, and let me teach you the truth." I wonder why I changed so few lives (!). But God is the author of mercy and grace so I'm actually starting to 'get it' a little better, it's actually GOD at work redeeming the world back to Himself, and I'd be careful sometimes to stay out of the way. "Go out today and preach the gospel... and if you must, use words." - St. Francis
  18. Most Christians I talk to that use the term, "God is in control" or some variant of it usually mean that ultimately His Will is what is going to come to pass at some final point. In daily practice, they use this as part of "take no thought for the morrow" and that "all things work together for good to them that love God" even if they don't see and understand at the time how it could work that way like when they're going through something hard. Obviously there will be some that take it ridiculously too far theologically, like every thought controlled by God - but that is absolutely not how people I know use the term, if they even say it at all. Within CES however, from my very first experiences, this term, "God is in control" as well as the whole "don't blame God / blaming God" concept and, "God use me" are still used to speak disparagingly of the 'mainstream church' and sometimes some funnier ones like when there was some big issue about people in CES leadership not liking the Mercy Me song, "I can only imagine." There was some big issue that the song was 'typical mainstream church' and off doctrinally, but what finally came out was that those people had misundertood the lyrics. When I hear people say, "God use me" they are not asking for the CARTOON PARODY that TWI used to present of the mainstream church, that they turn their mind control over to God (like people did with VP) but what they are actually asking for instead is that God redeem their talents and time for HIMself, illuminate their hearts and lead them in the paths of righteousness. That's a WONDERFUL thing to want - why in the world would someone try to parse words with that sentiment and ridicule a heartfelt attempt to walk according to HIS WILL? These kinds of things helped keep CES at a distance for me because I'm not looking for a 'total package' that's outside the body of Christ, that mocks and judges the rest of the church, the people that Christ has called to his body. Those things always seem to get brought up in a divisive way - just sounded too 'TWI - we got the only true doctrine' to me. www.truthortradition.com even says, "This website is dedicated to helping you understand the Word of God, free from the traditions of men." Assuming you're not introducing your own traditions even as you say that, it's great to try and teach the Word of God plain and true, but to position it as 'free from the traditions of men' sounds like a red-flag heart issue. And what's really funny is how much reference material is used by CES people from MAINSTREAM CHURCH. It just seems like maybe a bad idea for an organization to have a tag line that sounds like it's picking a fight with the rest of God's kids. Obviously God is WORKING in a LOT OF OTHER PLACES, and inspiring other people to write books too. Many people don't need to be 'rescued' from church, as some are actually blessed there; fellowshipping, praying, worshipping God, doing works of service, mission trips, feeding the poor, etc etc etc. The problem with CES being so gosh darned dogmatic about their doctrine is that they know personally that they've been wrong before. They are claiming an understanding of things that other spirit filled believers continue to debate as well, and opinions will probably continue to change as new information comes out. There is a reason that people in the church have debated these issues for so long. So sure, it's great to have a strong opinion, sometimes even to be dogmatic, but it's not ok to use some headknowledge that could be wrong to divide the church and couch it with, 'sincere and well meaning Christians often say..." Everyone knows that 'sincere and well meaning' is a euphemism for 'ignorant and uninformed.' If you want to teach YOUR opinion on the Bible, just TEACH IT. There is no value in teaching everything as a contrast to the error of everyone else. This article below is one of the supporting articles about whether or not God is 'in control.' http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.ph...icle&sid=14 The conclusion is that He's not, He's just really darned good at predicting things because He knows everything about the past and the present, but that even with Abraham, He didn't really 'KNOW' what Abraham would do until Gen 22:12 when He says, "NOW I know." Up until then, they say, He only had a really good guess. This argument is supposed to support the 'conditional' nature of prophecy, but what is really means is that there's a chance, even if very small, that God is WRONG about the future. In the above example it means that God 'could have' been wrong about Abraham. You can't have it both ways, either He knows or He doesn't - you can't hedge your bet by saying He has such a high probability of being right that He has an infinite improbability of being wrong, because then He could still actually be wrong, wrong about the future, wrong about our salvation, etc. Do you think this is the God of the Bible, the Almighty Creator, that He could be wrong? If He knows so much that He's always going to be right - then who cares? Does this really impact our daily walk? Maybe the devil believes there's a chance God could be wrong and lose. Maybe that's why he continues to rebel and fight? That if he gets enough support, he could actually overthrow God? Is he right? Is God just a really good guesser but ultimately fallible with a chink in His armor that the devil with a spiritual army can exploit? I don't believe it for a nano-second. If we believe He created the whole shootin' match, including the spirit beings, why wouldn't we believe that He could just PULL THE PLUG? Does this not make Him ultimately IN CONTROL? Certainly people are welcome to believe in this kind of doctrine, and who knows, in some way they may be right - but to spend our lives creating division to argue things we cannot ultimately know in order to satify our 'logical minds' seems carnal at best. I don't see examples of Jesus teaching this way. Jesus taught mainly through metaphor and parables because often that is how REALITY is best explained. Just like the old PFAL, saying the ground is 'thirsty' is somehow more true that trying to figure out exactly how dry it is. If anyone could have illustrated to the infinite degree it would have been Jesus, so why didn't he? I can only imagine!
  19. I believe churches and groups that teach and practice this like CI and Vineyard use mainly new testament directives. I Cor 14:22 ...prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. Obviously there are some fundamental differences between old testament Israel under the law and what is available in the new testament, which could account for why we're probably not called of God to stone believers now, although it is certainly a valid question from your post on false prophets. There are false witnesses, false apostles, and false brethren in the new testament but not a lot about false prophets, except one in Acts named Bar-Jesus, who attempts to turn away Paul and Barnabus from teaching about Christ. You can read the account for a refresher on what happens with him. Interestingly enough, they are on this journey based on the preceding phrases: Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. 4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus. One would probably ask, "how the did the 'holy ghost' say it?" Was it a "feeling" or a word of revelation that only the person going on the trip got, or was it a 'word' that was shared to the people being sent off? We read the following account in Acts 21:9 that makes it sound like the prophetic as "PP" could have been common, and that it included specific personal instruction -- And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. 10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. 11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. I would say that the following section also probably fits with the general scope. Peter was not strongly identified anywhere as a "prophet" but he certainly has secrets of Ananias' heart revealed to him, which he speaks out and Ananias does more than fall down and worship, but falls down dead. Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. In TWI it was taught that prophecy from regular "Joe Believer" was something really vague like, "Turn neither to the left, nor to the right, but stay steadfast in My word, for I love you little children" but I believe most of the books on the topics of "PP" would focus on areas like the verses above, like, "and thus are the SECRETS of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth." If that is taken as literally as it sounds, it would really take some serious 'secrets' for me to fall down on my face and report that "God is in you of a truth." Although this has actually happened to me before. I do not think though in TWI that even the simple NOTION of some "Joe Believer" being able to walk up to a MOG and speak the "secrets of his heart" would have ever been taught or properly explored. I think a lot of the leadership would have objected to other, non-scriptural reasons, like a change in the power base. As for the question of "who" should do the prophecying, usually in the PP teachings also verses like the above are referenced, "if ALL (in the church) prophecy..." As for whether or not prophets need to be 100% correct in this time period I cannot say dogmatically from scripture, but this is the verse I always end up looking at - I Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. The question would be what the 'judging' is for, and there are no consequences listed. There's also, "for now we know in part, and we prophecy in part" but that is not definitive on this topic. It's interesting also that TWI and offshoots like CES usually don't consider it a "proper" believers meeting unless three people have spoken in tongues, yet what Paul seems to be saying is "don't speak in tongues in the church" because; 1 - people will think you're insane (that should have been good enough), 2 - no one knows when to say "amen" at the giving of thanks, 3 - and no one's understanding is edified. Paul is pretty hep on instructing them to do things in the church that edify the group, and therefore seems to conclude, but if you "must" speak in tongues, let it be by two or by three (maximum). I'm not sure if your question was rhetorical, but the above sections are some that I've personally studied in depth to try and help me understand what I've personally experienced at some (limited) CES events but mainly from other churches.
  20. Question - from all the supporting docs and letters, has anyone seen any follow up from John and Eliz - was there ever any resolution / conclusion / etc or is it 'just as it appears' from the Eliz letter?
  21. Yes I think the intent was definitely something like that - something like washing the feet of the disciples, or providing money to the poor, or food to the multitude. Real service to meet real needs. What I have seen personally in CES is both the right and the wrong, some people who act like the fact that they spend money and time 'leading me' is 'servant leadership' and that I should be serving them in what the Lord has called them to do. But other people who have really 'washed my feet' in a manner of speaking and their 'servant leadership' is to help me achieve what I am supposed to be doing in the body. It's another counter-intuitive God thing. They grow in the Lord by actually helping others. Once you've had someone connect with you in your life and really genuinely want to see how they can help YOU, it's really hard to forget it, and in complete contrast to other calls you get about how you can 'help me grow my ministry.' And WAY different from someone wanting to hear your 'feelings' so that they can manipulate you emotionally or make judgements against you while pretending they have perfected their flesh. They are actually the ones being cheated out of real life with the Lord. It's a crappy deal to trade real, honest, humble submission and service for devisive, authoritarian manipulation. The 'Lord's economy' is a phrase I heard someone say that stuck with me - many times in life I'm faced with a trade between His economy and the immediate promise from the worlds economy, to get my OWN 'power and authority', and it's a walk by faith to work for His - and ALWAYS a better payoff. There are several people in CES, TWI, several 'mainstream churches' and elsewhere in the body who have washed my feet - thank you. Whether you had a title or not, it was through these acts that I understood the commands of the Lord better and got a picture of how I should try to serve in my daily walk. It is a true saying that sheppards smell like sheep!
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