Anyway I remember this story. I have always thought it was a strange law that if a man died without progeny his brother could fulfil the duty. Not only is it not biologically possible but it just seems kind of disgusting to me. I mean what if you got the only good looking man of the bunch and then he goes and dies and you get to have sex maybe repeatedly with his snaggletoothed brother....yuk! Now if the brother is some handsome Adonis then a person might want to hasten the hubbies demise...I'm sorry I digress...shallow me.. :D
I am short on time so I will come back to your other posts, but I wanted to respond to this. Also, if you pray, please pray for our doggie, Buster. Someone opened our back gate this afternoon and let our dogs loose - I'm guessing they were trying to steal the bikes out of our garage and were scared off, but that is just a guess at this point. Anyway, we did manage to get them back, but they were on the loose for hours and it looks like Buster got hit by a car. He is not bleeding anywhere and is eating okay, but he appears to be very bruised and beat up - he is limping pretty badly. He has bad knees on the back end to begin with, was born that way, now he is limping on his front side too.
Anyway, back on topic - the reason for the law was to protect the woman. Women were not allowed to own property and did not possess money of their own. They were entirely dependant upon their father, then their husband, and then one day their sons. If they did not have sons to inherit their husband's property, they were left destitute. So the point behind the law was to make sure the women were always provided for.
I know, I know - the ick factor gets me too, so does the chauvanistic aspect - but I guess they were at least trying . . .
What is even more interesting to me though, is the patriarchal stuff and the "fall of women" caused by chauvaanism. Like I said, O.T. treatment of women would be unacceptable in our day and time - in some ways they were treated like property. However, at the same time, there were protections in place to make sure she had a means of finacial support and security.
I have a theory concerning the manner in which women were treated in the OT. Bear with me and see what you think.
Ok, Adam and Eve screwed up, right? God sent them out of the Garden and gave them a new set of rules. Eve was made the mother of all nations and she was made to have pain while giving birth. Adam was told he had to work to provide for both he and Eve and that he would know pain. There is a lot of stuff in there that we just arent going to go into here, but bottom line Adam is told that he is responsible for the care of Eve. Adam was given these things because he "hearkened to the voice of the woman", presumably instead of God. Eve did not hearken unto the voice of God because she never heard it, Adam was supposed to tell her. Because this all kind of fell through Adam was told to care for Eve. Eve was not made lesser than Adam but she was placed into his care. He became responsible for what she did, and said. Remember when God confronted them Adam blamed it all on Eve? Well I think that God is correcting that behavior. In other words Adam would not take responsibily for his own actions so now God has made him responsible for not only his own actions but hers as well.
Hence in the OT man began to put women in a position where they were well cared for as God had commanded but also uneducated and kept in the dark and away from "man talk" that way she wouldnt say anything that the man would have to take credit for. Of course not all women were treated this way in the OT.
The Greeks and Romans were fairly progessive towards women and upper class women were sent to an Elementary type of school where they learned the basics of reading, writing, math and the arts. Lower class women worked as nurses, waitresses, weavers, midwives and food vendors. None were allowed to hold public office although the Emperess of Rome came close to it. The women were regarded in the same manner that the Bible would have the depicted as virtuous, brave and devoted. The Egyptians were even more "generous" with women, after all they had Cleopatra.
I know, I know - the ick factor gets me too, so does the chauvanistic aspect - but I guess they were at least trying . . .
Oh alright, I give. In fact I'll give 'em and E for effort.
Actually I think that this was what God wanted at the time. Adam didn't properly mind his garden and then blamed it all on her so now everyone needed to understand the point.
I pray your little Buster is just shook up and needs a little TLC and a long nap.
The first century church clealy had a few women that stood out as prominant members of the church. But by the second century the male dominated world was having its influence on the young church. The bible as we know it had yet to be compiled and in addition to the books we find within the Bible there were several other "epistles' floating around. Most were written my early church leaders not one of the original apostles or disciples of Christ. By the second century most of the original texts that we now have in the Bible were no longer in circulation, but rather there were "commentaries" or copies of the originals. Because there was no difinitive collection of "doctrine" it was a simple matter to "mess" with what was floating around.
Karen L. King is Professor of New Testament Studies and the History of Ancient Christianity at Harvard University in the Divinity School. She has published widely in the areas of Gnosticism, ancient Christianity, and Women's Studies. This is a portion of one of her short works concerning the prominance of women in the 1st and 2nd centuries:
"Women's prominence did not, however, go unchallenged. (from the 1st to the 2nd centuries) Every variety of ancient Christianity that advocated the legitimacy of women's leadership was eventually declared heretical, and evidence of women's early leadership roles was erased or suppressed.
This erasure has taken many forms. Collections of prophetic oracles were destroyed. Texts were changed. For example, at least one woman's place in history was obscured by turning her into a man! In Romans 16:7, the apostle Paul sends greetings to a woman named Junia. He says of her and her male partner Andronicus that they are "my kin and my fellow prisoners, prominent among the apostles and they were in Christ before me." Concluding that women could not be apostles, textual editors and translators transformed Junia into Junias, a man. Or women's stories could be rewritten and alternative traditions could be invented. "
Prof. King continues with compelling evidence concerning the change that the story of Mary Magdalen has undergone. She does not advocate that she was a love or wife of Jesus. But that she was a prominant leader in the early church. I do not disagree with her conclusions.
I am very interested in hearing how the women in the OT played prominent parts in the structure and formation of the history of people then. I do not believe the OT to be God breathed but rather a written narrative of people in a very patriarchal society looking to live their lives in the way they felt would please their God.
As an aside on some of the conversations here, cultures the world over outside of the territory of where the OT and NT were written, mostly had female and male gods that were sympathetic to their culture. Makes sense, doesn't it? The female was represented by the moon, the moon taking roughly 28 days to complete her cycle to fullness as the male was represented by the sun, 24 hours to complete his cycle of reproduction. Earth was the mother as well, giving birth and sustaining the life on it.
There were many saviours who died and came back to life. Some argue that this was the devil copying what was promised in Genesis about the seed warring seed, but that cannot be true as the Bible clearly states what was secret was secret, no one knew until Paul got the revelation and Corinthians states that if the God of this world knew...
Mithra, an early Persian god has many similiarities to Jesus.
But anyway, there is a book to read that I feel is to be considered in discussing the One God, monotheism type of worship and it's origins. The book is called, Custodians of Truth, The contiunaunce of Rex Deus by Tim Wallace-Murphy and Marilyn Hopkins.
It talks about the identification of Moses. Monotheism was first introduced in Epyptian by the Pharaoh Akenhaten and it went over as well as a lead balloon. It cites Sigmun Freud adn his final work, "Moses and Monotheism" and how Moses' origins told in the OT was based upon the mythology of Sargon (2800 B.C.E.) and then the stories of the birth of Horus (an Egyptian god) who were both hidden in a reed bed.
The Assyrian king list calls him "Sargon the Assyrian", son of Ikunum, and reckons him as one of their empire's founders. A Neo-Assyrian text (7th century BC) describes his birth and his early childhood:
“ My mother was a high priestess, my father I knew not. The brothers of my father loved the hills. My city is Azupiranu, which is situated on the banks of the Euphrates. My high priestess mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river which rose over me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water, took me as his son and reared me. Akki, the drawer of water, appointed me as his gardener. While I was a gardener, Ishtar granted me her love, and for four and […] years I exercised kingship.[4] ”
As Sargon's early life as castaway river baby predates the early story of biblical Moses, a theory of reflected story lines is possible.[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad
Anyway, this book proposes that Moses, was none other than Pharaoh Akenhaten who left Egypt with a crowd to go elsewhere to establish the one god, monotheism way of worship. There is much evidence presented in the book and I think it's a worthwhile read. It explains one way of how the ONE god and only ONE god way of worship evolved in a land and world that had many gods. Also, it has been noted that there are similarities between Egyptian hymns to their gods and some of the psalms. http://www.seanet.com/~realistic/psalm104.html
The more I study about the goddess the more I am inclined to think that she is actually another aspect of our Heavenly Father. And no I dont think God really cares if we worship him by lighting candles or drinking wine. From what I have been seeing in the Bible throughout the entire thing OT and NT, God was more interested in intent and where a person's heart was/is than the form of worship that was taken.
Agreed and agreed. That is how Shechina (I think I misspelled that) is understood in Kabbalah.
"A fundamental difference in the concept of worship is important to note: In the Temples of the old ways people would go to the temple TO BE WORSHIPPED not to worship. Women would go to the temple to serve the Goddess to embody Her, to represent Her, to be worshipped as Her. Women would spend a day, or a week, or a year serving at the Temple as a priestess, as a sacred Prostitute, as a whore in service to the Goddess. There they would be worshipped as the incarnation of the Goddess, as The Goddess Herself.
Men would come to Her Temple TO BE WORSHIPPED. Men would be welcomed and served by the Priestesses and men would represent the divine male principal, the Horned One, the Sacred Bull, The God. Men would come to the temple to give their love and passion to The Goddess, and would receive the passion, love, and affection of The Goddess."
Interesting, my reading on it was always different. That it was a form of worship in honor of the Goddess, and something of a fertility rite, an honor to have a child in the goddesses name.
Of course Ishtar was not the only goddess but she was/is the big one in the lands that we traditionally call the Bible lands. This is not of course the entire story. It is important to remember that sex in other parts of the world is not viewed as puritanically as most Americans see it.
And that is interesting too, isn't it. How the teachings and values we are taught as children are so deeply ingrained in us that it is hard to imagine someone else my have vastly different views.
Eve did not hearken unto the voice of God because she never heard it, Adam was supposed to tell her
Interesting theory, but how do we know Eve never heard the voice of God?
In Judaism, it is taught that Eve disobeyed God and HER punishment was that SHE had to submit to Adam. However, it was not originally God's plan to make women submissive to men, they were to be equal partners. All women were not to be punished for Eve's mistake, but it did sort of work out that way. Over time, women began righting this mistake - God told Abraham to listen to his wife, Rebecca knew what Isaac did not about Jacob, etc.
The Greeks and Romans were fairly progessive towards women and upper class women were sent to an Elementary type of school where they learned the basics of reading, writing, math and the arts. Lower class women worked as nurses, waitresses, weavers, midwives and food vendors. None were allowed to hold public office although the Emperess of Rome came close to it. The women were regarded in the same manner that the Bible would have the depicted as virtuous, brave and devoted. The Egyptians were even more "generous" with women, after all they had Cleopatra.
Interesting, I hadn't thought about that.
I pray your little Buster is just shook up and needs a little TLC and a long nap.
He seems to be doing much better today, thanks. I think he is still a bit tender, but he is wagging his tail again, instead of keeping it tucked down.
The first century church clealy had a few women that stood out as prominant members of the church. But by the second century the male dominated world was having its influence on the young church. The bible as we know it had yet to be compiled and in addition to the books we find within the Bible there were several other "epistles' floating around.
Again interesting stuff. What the author talks about in the pbs link you posted is very similar to what the author of "Harlot by the Side of the Road" talks about. How things were changed and "redacted" over time to support existing belief systems or for political reasons.
Here are the estimated dates according to Jonathan Kirsch
900 BC Author J, (who referred to God as Yahwist and is thought to have been a female) writes parts of Genesis
800 BC Author E (who referred to God as El, Elohiem, etc) writes parts of Genesis
**This would have been roughly 300 years after the exodus from Egypt and after the laws were given to Moses - Y probably lived during the reign of David.
700 - 600 BC - Deuterotomy is written under the reign of King Josiah. It is believed that the Deuteronomist changed some of the laws in an attempt to please the very pious King Josiah. It is also believed that this person, along with several others may have collected the stories and edited them into what we now know as Joshua, Judges, I and II Samuel and I and II Kings. (thought to be a female)
500 BC - author known as P or "Pristly Source" is credited for most of Leviticus.
400 BC - Redactors (Most likely date for when the Five Books of Moses were recognized as Holy Writ) collected more of the oral traditions and assembled of the writings into the continuous narratives we have today. Also may have adjusted the stories to fit their own ideology and political aenda.
200 BC - Most likely date when the Prohpets were accepted as Holy Writ
250 - 100 BC - Bible translated from Hebrew into the Greek Septuagint
100 BC - earliest surviving Hebew texts of th bible were written (discovered in 1947 as Dead Sea Scrolls)
90 A.D. - Final canonization of the Hebrew bible
405 A.D. - First tanslation of teh Christian bible from Greek to Latin'
1526 - First translation of the bible into English
When you look at how much time passed before these books were written and think about the hundreds of more years that passed before they were canonized, and then the various translations - there is no telling how much was adapted from other cultures, how much was changed and edited along the way-etc. Then there were the writings that were left out altogether, most of which have never been recovered. It is mind boggeling.
The female was represented by the moon, the moon taking roughly 28 days to complete her cycle to fullness as the male was represented by the sun, 24 hours to complete his cycle of reproduction. Earth was the mother as well, giving birth and sustaining the life on it.
I still find this subject interesting and would like to learn more about the role of the moon in pagan worship, as the Jewish calendar is based upon the lunar cycle to this day.
But anyway, there is a book to read that I feel is to be considered in discussing the One God, monotheism type of worship and it's origins. The book is called, Custodians of Truth, The contiunaunce of Rex Deus by Tim Wallace-Murphy and Marilyn Hopkins. . . .
Anyway, this book proposes that Moses, was none other than Pharaoh Akenhaten who left Egypt with a crowd to go elsewhere to establish the one god, monotheism way of worship. There is much evidence presented in the book and I think it's a worthwhile read. It explains one way of how the ONE god and only ONE god way of worship evolved in a land and world that had many gods. Also, it has been noted that there are similarities between Egyptian hymns to their gods and some of the psalms. http://www.seanet.com/~realistic/psalm104.html
Interesting theory, but how do we know Eve never heard the voice of God?
In Judaism, it is taught that Eve disobeyed God and HER punishment was that SHE had to submit to Adam. However, it was not originally God's plan to make women submissive to men, they were to be equal partners. All women were not to be punished for Eve's mistake, but it did sort of work out that way. Over time, women began righting this mistake - God told Abraham to listen to his wife, Rebecca knew what Isaac did not about Jacob, etc.
I went back and reread Genesis 1 and 2. In chapter 1 verses 27-31 it clearly shows that God is talking to both Adam and Eve when He is talking about what they are allowed to eat. But the verses do not mention the trees.
In chapter 2 verses 15-17 God gives only Adam the commandments concerning the trees and in verse 18 God creates the woman from the rib of man.
Now, if I were to take this on face value alone it would appear that God omitted the commandments concerning the trees when speaking to the two of them. Perhaps expection Adam to fill in the blanks. But you are right, I do not know for a fact that Eve was not told by God personally about the trees.
As for the rest of it I think that I can agree with all of it regardless of whether or not Eve was told by God or Adam. I think you are right that woman was never meant to be subserviant to man. The verses that I just read clearly state that woman was to be a help mate to man. Which indicates equality.
When you look at how much time passed before these books were written and think about the hundreds of more years that passed before they were canonized, and then the various translations - there is no telling how much was adapted from other cultures, how much was changed and edited along the way-etc. Then there were the writings that were left out altogether, most of which have never been recovered. It is mind boggeling.
I still find this subject interesting and would like to learn more about the role of the moon in pagan worship, as the Jewish calendar is based upon the lunar cycle to this day.
I am absolutely fascinated by this!
You're right it is mind boggeling! It's funny we put such emphasis on the many errors and such in the NT and yet completely overlook the same problem expounded by several hundred more years on the OT. This is what fascinates me!
I haven't had time this weekend to research the moon thing, guard drill weekend is a really busy time for me. But I promise I will get on it on Monday at the latest.
I am so happy to hear that Buster is doing better!
FC You bring up some very interesting information. I am going to check it all out when the weekend is over and I have time. Thanks for all the cool links!
The moon has an association with the underworld where the dead were. The moon rose from below the earth, and set under the earth, so it was a connection with the dead.
Modern Wiccans see the phazes of the moon to represent both the triple goddess and the life stages of a woman, maiden, mother, crone.
The full moon was believed to bring madness (lunacy) or enlightenment. Wiccans have a ritual called drawing down the moon where the high priestess evokes the goddess with in herself. She may speak words that sound to me quite like Word of prophecy,which is seen as enlightenment from the goddess. The full moon is believed to empower.
I know I'm late to the thread and have nothing more specific to offer than you all may be interested in anything by Joseph Campbell. He was the world's foremost authority on comparative religion. I've read bits of his books and found them rather interesting.
I would recommend starting with "Myths To Live By". It's a fascinating read, and a good primer on the subject.
The moon has an association with the underworld where the dead were. The moon rose from below the earth, and set under the earth, so it was a connection with the dead.
Modern Wiccans see the phazes of the moon to represent both the triple goddess and the life stages of a woman, maiden, mother, crone.
The full moon was believed to bring madness (lunacy) or enlightenment. Wiccans have a ritual called drawing down the moon where the high priestess evokes the goddess with in herself. She may speak words that sound to me quite like Word of prophecy,which is seen as enlightenment from the goddess. The full moon is believed to empower.
What is interesting is that at the time of David and Saul and other times in the OT, God of the OT was worshipped at the new moon. *nods nods* And people would gather in the king's hall at the new moon.
Apparently, Abi used my computer whilst I was away from it.
By the by, if you're a Star Wars fan, Joseph Campbell was a very direct influence on George Lucas, if he didn't actually work with him. The Star Wars saga is closely based on age old tales.
What is interesting is that at the time of David and Saul and other times in the OT, God of the OT was worshipped at the new moon. *nods nods* And people would gather in the king's hall at the new moon.
*nods nods*
We still celebrate the new moon, though not in the same manner - it is the celebration of a new month.
This is from Jewfaq.org
The day after the moon appeared was a festival, announced with the sounding of the shofar, commemorated with solemn convocations, family festivities and special sacrifices. The importance of this holiday in ancient times should not be underestimated. The entire calendar was dependent upon these declarations; without the declarations, there would be no way of knowing when holidays were supposed to occur.
In later days, however, the calendar was fixed by mathematical computation. After the destruction of the Temple, sacrifices were no longer available. Accordingly, the significance of this festival has substantially diminished. There are some slight changes to the liturgy for Rosh Chodesh, including the addition of part of Hallel after the Shemoneh Esrei, and some additional Torah readings, but that is about the only observance of Rosh Chodesh today.
It remains a custom in some communities for women to refrain from work on Rosh Chodesh, as a reward for their refusal to participate in the incident of the Golden Calf. See The Role of Women.
I know I am late to the thread but those two books mentioned in the first post sound like very interesting reading. Thanks for mentioning them, Abigail.
I know I am late to the thread but those two books mentioned in the first post sound like very interesting reading. Thanks for mentioning them, Abigail.
They are both great books! I have been meaning to post more here, but have been busy with other things. :(
Ahh my dear Abi, it has taken me a little more time than I had thought that it would...but...this is what I have found concerning the "Evening Star":
"Evening Star is a name for the planet Venus when it appears brilliantly in the western sky after sunset; periods of visibility follow superior conjunction, the time when Venus lies almost behind the sun and is about 256,000,000 km from Earth, and precede inferior conjunction, when Venus is between Earth and the sun and is about 42,000,000 km away from Earth; the term morning star is applied to Venus when it shines brightly in the eastern sky before sunrise."
"The planet Venus has probably experienced its most significant personification in the figure of the Mesopotamian goddess Inanna-Ishtar. She was viewed sometimes as female and at other times as bisexual. Through her identification with the Greek Aphrodite and the Roman Venus, Inanna-Ishtar, the queen of heaven, still survives in Roman Catholic iconography—e.g., as the Virgin Mary standing on the moon. African cultures also have been significantly impressed by this planet, not only in the rare figure of a Zulu heavenly goddess who determines the agricultural work of the women but even more as the evening star and the morning star, who are the wives of the moon. In the royal culture of Mwene Matapa (Zimbabwe) and its influences in Buganda (Uganda) and southern Congo, the king is related to the moon, and his wedding with the Venus women is a type of hieros gamos (Greek: “sacred marriage”). In large areas of Africa the concept of “Venus wives of the moon” is preserved, although the moon is usually considered as the wife (or sister) of the sun. This concept was most likely prevalent at a time when the moon-king ideology was widespread in the eastern half of Africa from the Nile to South Africa, perhaps indicating South Arabian influences."
As you can see the article agrees with us that the goddess continues in modern religion in other forms. It also draws the correlation between that goddess and the stars. Hmmm...so if Jesus is the son of the morning star...no amoking let me look this up again. Hehehe
Ok here's what I got on the Morning Star:
"Greek Hesperos, also called Vesper, in Greco-Roman mythology, the evening star, son or brother of Atlas. He was later identified with the morning star, Phosphorus, or Eosphorus (Latin: Lucifer), the bringer of light. Hesperus is variously described by different authors as the father of the Hesperides (the guardians of the golden apples) or of their mother, Hesperis."
Thanks for posting all of that information. I've been wanting to get back to this thread but have been busy (birthday parties for kiddo's, work, etc.) and then sick. :(
I posted a link to an article on the modern goddess movement in OPEN on the Wicca thread.
Recently i spent some time reading about Tiamat, snake goddesses, creation myhts on the net, some very interesting things. It is a large area of study, but the serpentasa symbol of the goddess or of creation seems to be pretty prevalent in ancient beliefs. I'd like to have the time to study it more, read the actual myrhs etc.
Thanks for posting all of that information. I've been wanting to get back to this thread but have been busy (birthday parties for kiddo's, work, etc.) and then sick. :(
Hope its nothing serious? Get back when you can I have another question that will take us way off the topic. But I would like to hear what you know.
Love ya sis,
I posted a link to an article on the modern goddess movement in OPEN on the Wicca thread.
Recently i spent some time reading about Tiamat, snake goddesses, creation myhts on the net, some very interesting things. It is a large area of study, but the serpentasa symbol of the goddess or of creation seems to be pretty prevalent in ancient beliefs. I'd like to have the time to study it more, read the actual myrhs etc.
You are soooo right this is a very big area of study. I have had the opportunity over the past couple of years to study it just a little as it relates to something else that I am doing. It is so interesting how all of these religions from Christianity all the way back to stone age paganism all have similar aspects. It just can't be coincidence. And it cannot all be accounted for by migration either. This thought has been running nonstop in my head for quite a while. It started with the pyramids of Egypt and the Mayan pyramids and grew from there. Having others to converse with and gleen insight, knowledge and amoks from is wonderful.
What is your question Eyes? Curiosity is killing me - lol!
Anyway, here is what I found within Judaism on Evening Star, Morning Star, and the Serpent:
There is very little information on the "evening star" though what I did find would link it to venus and also to Ishtar.
The "morning star" is also lined to venus, as well as lucifer (in Isa 13). However, it should be noted that within Judaism, Lucifer is not seen as the Christian Devil, but is understood to be a referrence to Nebuchadnezzer and his attempt to rule over Israel.
Another reference, which I found very fascinating and sort of ties the evening and morning star together, was a reference to Esther beeing a woman like the morning star because she cloaked her identity until the proper time to reveal herself arrived. Another article linked Esther to Ishtar!
Okay, the serpent - there is much and often conflicting information on the serpent within Judaism, but here is a brief summation.
First, I have to say I found it very interesting to find that Rashi (a Hebrew scholar who predates Jesus) teaches the serpent account in Genesis in a very similar fashion to the way TWI taught it. He states that some of the verses are juxtaposed. He also says the serpent saw Adam and Eve naked (hence the need for god to provide clothing later) and having sex and that the serpent desired Eve. Rashi points out how Eve added to what God said regarding not touching the tree, and that made it easier for the serpent to deceive her. Further, the serpent was hoping Eve would feed it to Adam first, thus causing Adam to die, so the serpent could have Eve all to himself.
One interpretation of the tree account, which I have shared before, is that God always intended for them to eat, but they needed to wait until the proper time. The idea behind this is that prior to eating, Adam and Eve had only animal instinct, much like dogs and cats. In eating their eyes were opened (they gained wisdom). They ate because they wre seeking wisdom above animal instinct and in order to gain such wisdom one must understand the concept of duality.
In judaism, the serpent is equated to the angel of death, as well as duality. The serpent is also seen in ancient times as a powerful and positive allie to the woman.
and now I get to run amok amok amok :) I was thinking, "in the day though eatest thereof though shall surely die" or however exactly that was worded. Obviously they didn't die. Perhaps what was really intended is that Adam and Eve, having only animal instinct, had no knowledge or concept of death - they would have eventually died like all animals die, but they weren't aware of that fact. Once they ate, they became aware of the concept of what death really was?
There is very little information on the "evening star" though what I did find would link it to venus and also to Ishtar.
The "morning star" is also lined to venus, as well as lucifer (in Isa 13). However, it should be noted that within Judaism, Lucifer is not seen as the Christian Devil, but is understood to be a referrence to Nebuchadnezzer and his attempt to rule over Israel.
Another reference, which I found very fascinating and sort of ties the evening and morning star together, was a reference to Esther beeing a woman like the morning star because she cloaked her identity until the proper time to reveal herself arrived. Another article linked Esther to Ishtar!
Ok, so do you think that our wonderful Esther was perhaps the inspiration or was in fact Ishtar and Venus? In different religions?
and now I get to run amok amok amok :) I was thinking, "in the day though eatest thereof though shall surely die" or however exactly that was worded. Obviously they didn't die. Perhaps what was really intended is that Adam and Eve, having only animal instinct, had no knowledge or concept of death - they would have eventually died like all animals die, but they weren't aware of that fact. Once they ate, they became aware of the concept of what death really was?
In other words upon eating they gained wisdom, enough so that they were now set apart from other animals mentally and in so doing they became aware of their own mortality? I can buy that. In fact that makes good sense...bear with me...why would God make a tree of eternal life if Adam and Eve were created that way? If they were created as VP taught it, perfectly so that they would never die then why did God make a tree that bore fruit that upon eating would grant eternal life? Foreknowledge? I don't think so. That just sounds like a catch all phrase for "I don't know" At least in this instance and TWI teaching.
As far as I know the tree of life isn't mentioned again in the bible, is it?
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Abigail
I am short on time so I will come back to your other posts, but I wanted to respond to this. Also, if you pray, please pray for our doggie, Buster. Someone opened our back gate this afternoon and let our dogs loose - I'm guessing they were trying to steal the bikes out of our garage and were scared off, but that is just a guess at this point. Anyway, we did manage to get them back, but they were on the loose for hours and it looks like Buster got hit by a car. He is not bleeding anywhere and is eating okay, but he appears to be very bruised and beat up - he is limping pretty badly. He has bad knees on the back end to begin with, was born that way, now he is limping on his front side too.
Anyway, back on topic - the reason for the law was to protect the woman. Women were not allowed to own property and did not possess money of their own. They were entirely dependant upon their father, then their husband, and then one day their sons. If they did not have sons to inherit their husband's property, they were left destitute. So the point behind the law was to make sure the women were always provided for.
I know, I know - the ick factor gets me too, so does the chauvanistic aspect - but I guess they were at least trying . . .
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Eyesopen
I have a theory concerning the manner in which women were treated in the OT. Bear with me and see what you think.
Ok, Adam and Eve screwed up, right? God sent them out of the Garden and gave them a new set of rules. Eve was made the mother of all nations and she was made to have pain while giving birth. Adam was told he had to work to provide for both he and Eve and that he would know pain. There is a lot of stuff in there that we just arent going to go into here, but bottom line Adam is told that he is responsible for the care of Eve. Adam was given these things because he "hearkened to the voice of the woman", presumably instead of God. Eve did not hearken unto the voice of God because she never heard it, Adam was supposed to tell her. Because this all kind of fell through Adam was told to care for Eve. Eve was not made lesser than Adam but she was placed into his care. He became responsible for what she did, and said. Remember when God confronted them Adam blamed it all on Eve? Well I think that God is correcting that behavior. In other words Adam would not take responsibily for his own actions so now God has made him responsible for not only his own actions but hers as well.
Hence in the OT man began to put women in a position where they were well cared for as God had commanded but also uneducated and kept in the dark and away from "man talk" that way she wouldnt say anything that the man would have to take credit for. Of course not all women were treated this way in the OT.
The Greeks and Romans were fairly progessive towards women and upper class women were sent to an Elementary type of school where they learned the basics of reading, writing, math and the arts. Lower class women worked as nurses, waitresses, weavers, midwives and food vendors. None were allowed to hold public office although the Emperess of Rome came close to it. The women were regarded in the same manner that the Bible would have the depicted as virtuous, brave and devoted. The Egyptians were even more "generous" with women, after all they had Cleopatra.
Oh alright, I give. In fact I'll give 'em and E for effort.
Actually I think that this was what God wanted at the time. Adam didn't properly mind his garden and then blamed it all on her so now everyone needed to understand the point.
I pray your little Buster is just shook up and needs a little TLC and a long nap.
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Eyesopen
Alright back to the fall of women in the church.
The first century church clealy had a few women that stood out as prominant members of the church. But by the second century the male dominated world was having its influence on the young church. The bible as we know it had yet to be compiled and in addition to the books we find within the Bible there were several other "epistles' floating around. Most were written my early church leaders not one of the original apostles or disciples of Christ. By the second century most of the original texts that we now have in the Bible were no longer in circulation, but rather there were "commentaries" or copies of the originals. Because there was no difinitive collection of "doctrine" it was a simple matter to "mess" with what was floating around.
Karen L. King is Professor of New Testament Studies and the History of Ancient Christianity at Harvard University in the Divinity School. She has published widely in the areas of Gnosticism, ancient Christianity, and Women's Studies. This is a portion of one of her short works concerning the prominance of women in the 1st and 2nd centuries:
"Women's prominence did not, however, go unchallenged. (from the 1st to the 2nd centuries) Every variety of ancient Christianity that advocated the legitimacy of women's leadership was eventually declared heretical, and evidence of women's early leadership roles was erased or suppressed.
This erasure has taken many forms. Collections of prophetic oracles were destroyed. Texts were changed. For example, at least one woman's place in history was obscured by turning her into a man! In Romans 16:7, the apostle Paul sends greetings to a woman named Junia. He says of her and her male partner Andronicus that they are "my kin and my fellow prisoners, prominent among the apostles and they were in Christ before me." Concluding that women could not be apostles, textual editors and translators transformed Junia into Junias, a man. Or women's stories could be rewritten and alternative traditions could be invented. "
Prof. King continues with compelling evidence concerning the change that the story of Mary Magdalen has undergone. She does not advocate that she was a love or wife of Jesus. But that she was a prominant leader in the early church. I do not disagree with her conclusions.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...irst/women.html
Check it out. I dont know how to make it a click only thing. So I guess you have to copy and paste it. Good reading.
Wow the thing works!
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FullCircle
tried to edit but couldn't so I did a another post below
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FullCircle
I am very interested in hearing how the women in the OT played prominent parts in the structure and formation of the history of people then. I do not believe the OT to be God breathed but rather a written narrative of people in a very patriarchal society looking to live their lives in the way they felt would please their God.
As an aside on some of the conversations here, cultures the world over outside of the territory of where the OT and NT were written, mostly had female and male gods that were sympathetic to their culture. Makes sense, doesn't it? The female was represented by the moon, the moon taking roughly 28 days to complete her cycle to fullness as the male was represented by the sun, 24 hours to complete his cycle of reproduction. Earth was the mother as well, giving birth and sustaining the life on it.
There were many saviours who died and came back to life. Some argue that this was the devil copying what was promised in Genesis about the seed warring seed, but that cannot be true as the Bible clearly states what was secret was secret, no one knew until Paul got the revelation and Corinthians states that if the God of this world knew...
Mithra, an early Persian god has many similiarities to Jesus.
But anyway, there is a book to read that I feel is to be considered in discussing the One God, monotheism type of worship and it's origins. The book is called, Custodians of Truth, The contiunaunce of Rex Deus by Tim Wallace-Murphy and Marilyn Hopkins.
It talks about the identification of Moses. Monotheism was first introduced in Epyptian by the Pharaoh Akenhaten and it went over as well as a lead balloon. It cites Sigmun Freud adn his final work, "Moses and Monotheism" and how Moses' origins told in the OT was based upon the mythology of Sargon (2800 B.C.E.) and then the stories of the birth of Horus (an Egyptian god) who were both hidden in a reed bed.
The Assyrian king list calls him "Sargon the Assyrian", son of Ikunum, and reckons him as one of their empire's founders. A Neo-Assyrian text (7th century BC) describes his birth and his early childhood:
“ My mother was a high priestess, my father I knew not. The brothers of my father loved the hills. My city is Azupiranu, which is situated on the banks of the Euphrates. My high priestess mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river which rose over me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water, took me as his son and reared me. Akki, the drawer of water, appointed me as his gardener. While I was a gardener, Ishtar granted me her love, and for four and […] years I exercised kingship.[4] ”
As Sargon's early life as castaway river baby predates the early story of biblical Moses, a theory of reflected story lines is possible.[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad
Anyway, this book proposes that Moses, was none other than Pharaoh Akenhaten who left Egypt with a crowd to go elsewhere to establish the one god, monotheism way of worship. There is much evidence presented in the book and I think it's a worthwhile read. It explains one way of how the ONE god and only ONE god way of worship evolved in a land and world that had many gods. Also, it has been noted that there are similarities between Egyptian hymns to their gods and some of the psalms. http://www.seanet.com/~realistic/psalm104.html
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Abigail
Interesting, my reading on it was always different. That it was a form of worship in honor of the Goddess, and something of a fertility rite, an honor to have a child in the goddesses name.
And that is interesting too, isn't it. How the teachings and values we are taught as children are so deeply ingrained in us that it is hard to imagine someone else my have vastly different views.
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Abigail
In Judaism, it is taught that Eve disobeyed God and HER punishment was that SHE had to submit to Adam. However, it was not originally God's plan to make women submissive to men, they were to be equal partners. All women were not to be punished for Eve's mistake, but it did sort of work out that way. Over time, women began righting this mistake - God told Abraham to listen to his wife, Rebecca knew what Isaac did not about Jacob, etc.
Interesting, I hadn't thought about that.
He seems to be doing much better today, thanks. I think he is still a bit tender, but he is wagging his tail again, instead of keeping it tucked down.
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Abigail
Again interesting stuff. What the author talks about in the pbs link you posted is very similar to what the author of "Harlot by the Side of the Road" talks about. How things were changed and "redacted" over time to support existing belief systems or for political reasons.
Here are the estimated dates according to Jonathan Kirsch
900 BC Author J, (who referred to God as Yahwist and is thought to have been a female) writes parts of Genesis
800 BC Author E (who referred to God as El, Elohiem, etc) writes parts of Genesis
**This would have been roughly 300 years after the exodus from Egypt and after the laws were given to Moses - Y probably lived during the reign of David.
700 - 600 BC - Deuterotomy is written under the reign of King Josiah. It is believed that the Deuteronomist changed some of the laws in an attempt to please the very pious King Josiah. It is also believed that this person, along with several others may have collected the stories and edited them into what we now know as Joshua, Judges, I and II Samuel and I and II Kings. (thought to be a female)
500 BC - author known as P or "Pristly Source" is credited for most of Leviticus.
400 BC - Redactors (Most likely date for when the Five Books of Moses were recognized as Holy Writ) collected more of the oral traditions and assembled of the writings into the continuous narratives we have today. Also may have adjusted the stories to fit their own ideology and political aenda.
200 BC - Most likely date when the Prohpets were accepted as Holy Writ
250 - 100 BC - Bible translated from Hebrew into the Greek Septuagint
100 BC - earliest surviving Hebew texts of th bible were written (discovered in 1947 as Dead Sea Scrolls)
90 A.D. - Final canonization of the Hebrew bible
405 A.D. - First tanslation of teh Christian bible from Greek to Latin'
1526 - First translation of the bible into English
When you look at how much time passed before these books were written and think about the hundreds of more years that passed before they were canonized, and then the various translations - there is no telling how much was adapted from other cultures, how much was changed and edited along the way-etc. Then there were the writings that were left out altogether, most of which have never been recovered. It is mind boggeling.
I still find this subject interesting and would like to learn more about the role of the moon in pagan worship, as the Jewish calendar is based upon the lunar cycle to this day.I am absolutely fascinated by this!
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Eyesopen
I went back and reread Genesis 1 and 2. In chapter 1 verses 27-31 it clearly shows that God is talking to both Adam and Eve when He is talking about what they are allowed to eat. But the verses do not mention the trees.
In chapter 2 verses 15-17 God gives only Adam the commandments concerning the trees and in verse 18 God creates the woman from the rib of man.
Now, if I were to take this on face value alone it would appear that God omitted the commandments concerning the trees when speaking to the two of them. Perhaps expection Adam to fill in the blanks. But you are right, I do not know for a fact that Eve was not told by God personally about the trees.
As for the rest of it I think that I can agree with all of it regardless of whether or not Eve was told by God or Adam. I think you are right that woman was never meant to be subserviant to man. The verses that I just read clearly state that woman was to be a help mate to man. Which indicates equality.
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Eyesopen
You're right it is mind boggeling! It's funny we put such emphasis on the many errors and such in the NT and yet completely overlook the same problem expounded by several hundred more years on the OT. This is what fascinates me!
I haven't had time this weekend to research the moon thing, guard drill weekend is a really busy time for me. But I promise I will get on it on Monday at the latest.
I am so happy to hear that Buster is doing better!
FC You bring up some very interesting information. I am going to check it all out when the weekend is over and I have time. Thanks for all the cool links!
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Bramble
The moon has an association with the underworld where the dead were. The moon rose from below the earth, and set under the earth, so it was a connection with the dead.
Modern Wiccans see the phazes of the moon to represent both the triple goddess and the life stages of a woman, maiden, mother, crone.
The full moon was believed to bring madness (lunacy) or enlightenment. Wiccans have a ritual called drawing down the moon where the high priestess evokes the goddess with in herself. She may speak words that sound to me quite like Word of prophecy,which is seen as enlightenment from the goddess. The full moon is believed to empower.
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Sushi
I know I'm late to the thread and have nothing more specific to offer than you all may be interested in anything by Joseph Campbell. He was the world's foremost authority on comparative religion. I've read bits of his books and found them rather interesting.
I would recommend starting with "Myths To Live By". It's a fascinating read, and a good primer on the subject.
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FullCircle
What is interesting is that at the time of David and Saul and other times in the OT, God of the OT was worshipped at the new moon. *nods nods* And people would gather in the king's hall at the new moon.
I will get that book, Sushi, it sounds good.
*heads off to Amazon*
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Abigail
Apparently, Abi used my computer whilst I was away from it.
By the by, if you're a Star Wars fan, Joseph Campbell was a very direct influence on George Lucas, if he didn't actually work with him. The Star Wars saga is closely based on age old tales.
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Abigail
*nods nods*
We still celebrate the new moon, though not in the same manner - it is the celebration of a new month.
This is from Jewfaq.org
The day after the moon appeared was a festival, announced with the sounding of the shofar, commemorated with solemn convocations, family festivities and special sacrifices. The importance of this holiday in ancient times should not be underestimated. The entire calendar was dependent upon these declarations; without the declarations, there would be no way of knowing when holidays were supposed to occur.
In later days, however, the calendar was fixed by mathematical computation. After the destruction of the Temple, sacrifices were no longer available. Accordingly, the significance of this festival has substantially diminished. There are some slight changes to the liturgy for Rosh Chodesh, including the addition of part of Hallel after the Shemoneh Esrei, and some additional Torah readings, but that is about the only observance of Rosh Chodesh today.
It remains a custom in some communities for women to refrain from work on Rosh Chodesh, as a reward for their refusal to participate in the incident of the Golden Calf. See The Role of Women.
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Jeaniam
I know I am late to the thread but those two books mentioned in the first post sound like very interesting reading. Thanks for mentioning them, Abigail.
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Abigail
They are both great books! I have been meaning to post more here, but have been busy with other things. :(
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Eyesopen
Ahh my dear Abi, it has taken me a little more time than I had thought that it would...but...this is what I have found concerning the "Evening Star":
"Evening Star is a name for the planet Venus when it appears brilliantly in the western sky after sunset; periods of visibility follow superior conjunction, the time when Venus lies almost behind the sun and is about 256,000,000 km from Earth, and precede inferior conjunction, when Venus is between Earth and the sun and is about 42,000,000 km away from Earth; the term morning star is applied to Venus when it shines brightly in the eastern sky before sunrise."
"The planet Venus has probably experienced its most significant personification in the figure of the Mesopotamian goddess Inanna-Ishtar. She was viewed sometimes as female and at other times as bisexual. Through her identification with the Greek Aphrodite and the Roman Venus, Inanna-Ishtar, the queen of heaven, still survives in Roman Catholic iconography—e.g., as the Virgin Mary standing on the moon. African cultures also have been significantly impressed by this planet, not only in the rare figure of a Zulu heavenly goddess who determines the agricultural work of the women but even more as the evening star and the morning star, who are the wives of the moon. In the royal culture of Mwene Matapa (Zimbabwe) and its influences in Buganda (Uganda) and southern Congo, the king is related to the moon, and his wedding with the Venus women is a type of hieros gamos (Greek: “sacred marriage”). In large areas of Africa the concept of “Venus wives of the moon” is preserved, although the moon is usually considered as the wife (or sister) of the sun. This concept was most likely prevalent at a time when the moon-king ideology was widespread in the eastern half of Africa from the Nile to South Africa, perhaps indicating South Arabian influences."
I got these from here:
"Evening star." Britannica Student Encyclopedia. 2007. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 21 Apr. 2007 <http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-9322802>.
"nature worship." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2007. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 21 Apr. 2007 <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-38293>.
As you can see the article agrees with us that the goddess continues in modern religion in other forms. It also draws the correlation between that goddess and the stars. Hmmm...so if Jesus is the son of the morning star...no amoking let me look this up again. Hehehe
Ok here's what I got on the Morning Star:
"Greek Hesperos, also called Vesper, in Greco-Roman mythology, the evening star, son or brother of Atlas. He was later identified with the morning star, Phosphorus, or Eosphorus (Latin: Lucifer), the bringer of light. Hesperus is variously described by different authors as the father of the Hesperides (the guardians of the golden apples) or of their mother, Hesperis."
I got it here:
"Hesperus." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2007. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 21 Apr. 2007 <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9040280>.
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Abigail
Hi Eyes,
Thanks for posting all of that information. I've been wanting to get back to this thread but have been busy (birthday parties for kiddo's, work, etc.) and then sick. :(
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Bramble
I posted a link to an article on the modern goddess movement in OPEN on the Wicca thread.
Recently i spent some time reading about Tiamat, snake goddesses, creation myhts on the net, some very interesting things. It is a large area of study, but the serpentasa symbol of the goddess or of creation seems to be pretty prevalent in ancient beliefs. I'd like to have the time to study it more, read the actual myrhs etc.
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Eyesopen
Hope its nothing serious? Get back when you can I have another question that will take us way off the topic. But I would like to hear what you know.
Love ya sis,
You are soooo right this is a very big area of study. I have had the opportunity over the past couple of years to study it just a little as it relates to something else that I am doing. It is so interesting how all of these religions from Christianity all the way back to stone age paganism all have similar aspects. It just can't be coincidence. And it cannot all be accounted for by migration either. This thought has been running nonstop in my head for quite a while. It started with the pyramids of Egypt and the Mayan pyramids and grew from there. Having others to converse with and gleen insight, knowledge and amoks from is wonderful.
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Abigail
Feeling a bit better today, though tired. :)
What is your question Eyes? Curiosity is killing me - lol!
Anyway, here is what I found within Judaism on Evening Star, Morning Star, and the Serpent:
There is very little information on the "evening star" though what I did find would link it to venus and also to Ishtar.
The "morning star" is also lined to venus, as well as lucifer (in Isa 13). However, it should be noted that within Judaism, Lucifer is not seen as the Christian Devil, but is understood to be a referrence to Nebuchadnezzer and his attempt to rule over Israel.
Another reference, which I found very fascinating and sort of ties the evening and morning star together, was a reference to Esther beeing a woman like the morning star because she cloaked her identity until the proper time to reveal herself arrived. Another article linked Esther to Ishtar!
Okay, the serpent - there is much and often conflicting information on the serpent within Judaism, but here is a brief summation.
First, I have to say I found it very interesting to find that Rashi (a Hebrew scholar who predates Jesus) teaches the serpent account in Genesis in a very similar fashion to the way TWI taught it. He states that some of the verses are juxtaposed. He also says the serpent saw Adam and Eve naked (hence the need for god to provide clothing later) and having sex and that the serpent desired Eve. Rashi points out how Eve added to what God said regarding not touching the tree, and that made it easier for the serpent to deceive her. Further, the serpent was hoping Eve would feed it to Adam first, thus causing Adam to die, so the serpent could have Eve all to himself.
One interpretation of the tree account, which I have shared before, is that God always intended for them to eat, but they needed to wait until the proper time. The idea behind this is that prior to eating, Adam and Eve had only animal instinct, much like dogs and cats. In eating their eyes were opened (they gained wisdom). They ate because they wre seeking wisdom above animal instinct and in order to gain such wisdom one must understand the concept of duality.
In judaism, the serpent is equated to the angel of death, as well as duality. The serpent is also seen in ancient times as a powerful and positive allie to the woman.
and now I get to run amok amok amok :) I was thinking, "in the day though eatest thereof though shall surely die" or however exactly that was worded. Obviously they didn't die. Perhaps what was really intended is that Adam and Eve, having only animal instinct, had no knowledge or concept of death - they would have eventually died like all animals die, but they weren't aware of that fact. Once they ate, they became aware of the concept of what death really was?
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Eyesopen
Glad to hear that you are feeling better. :)
Ok, so do you think that our wonderful Esther was perhaps the inspiration or was in fact Ishtar and Venus? In different religions?
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Eyesopen
In other words upon eating they gained wisdom, enough so that they were now set apart from other animals mentally and in so doing they became aware of their own mortality? I can buy that. In fact that makes good sense...bear with me...why would God make a tree of eternal life if Adam and Eve were created that way? If they were created as VP taught it, perfectly so that they would never die then why did God make a tree that bore fruit that upon eating would grant eternal life? Foreknowledge? I don't think so. That just sounds like a catch all phrase for "I don't know" At least in this instance and TWI teaching.
As far as I know the tree of life isn't mentioned again in the bible, is it?
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