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JeffSjo

My splinter group experience as I've shared it here.

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What do you say to someone that apparently blames others for every bad thing in his life?

May I make a couple suggestions?

1-get a life

2-get your facts straight

3-get spell check

I am doing just fine thank you

Every bad thing? Really? EVERY? Hmmmmm... I don't read Jeff blaming others very often. Presumably he's got his fair share of BS that occurs to all of us everyday: a-holes cutting us off on the freeway, milk spoiled, twisted an ankle - name your "bad thing." He doesn't mention any of it. You can't even say he blames others for "most" bad things in his life. Heck, other than loosing his wife and son through a messy divorce, I haven't even seen Jeff complain very much about (careful here - the word looks similar to "everything" but with a subtle twist) ANYTHING.

Have you lost anything equally precious in a similar way? If not then I doubt you can stand in judgment.

May I make a couple of suggestions?

1 - get some manners

2 - let people tell their story and vent if they need to

3 - get a good dictionary and use it

I suspect there is more to this interaction than meets the eye. Perhaps you should take a breather before you hang all your stuff out there in public.

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Thank you Shellon and Doojable, :eusa_clap:

This isn't the kind of thing that we haven't seen here many, many times and in my mind only confirms that my former friends have developed along the same line as TWI apologists in so much as their best shot is often just unsubstansiated and somewhat thuggish insults.

I am quoting this one in order to have it stick around for a while just in case the author ends up determining rightly so that this post is a huge mistake and tries to edit it or something...

I did invite them to come out and dance with me in broad daylight after all and I am happy to do so. I may not have any more time online until Monday sometime, so I am glad that some of the rest of you are willing to answer such deragatory comments. If they coninue on I may request that the mods remove a long drawn out conversation here from "my story" and maybe make it a new thread or something similar.This little bit only serves to show exactly what kind of Christians I was up against in River Road fellowship.

What do you say to someone that apparently blames others for every bad thing in his life?

May I make a couple suggestions?

1-get a life

2-get your facts straight

3-get spell check

I am doing just fine thank you

I am assuming that your name here at GSC is a direct answer to my concerns that I have expressed publically doingjustfinethankyou. If you think being highmindedly judgemental and mean is doing just fine I suppose that is your business, but I know better. :cryhug_1_:

If you wish to discuss something specific make it another thread, I'm fairly certain the mods will not allow a long drawn out conflict here because this area has been somewhat reserved for a specific purpose. I know you have been taught and shown that virtually any nasty, astisocial, and damaging behavior can be justified in either God's name or in the name of "the ministry" but here you have to at least try to adhere to a format that has been set up for everybody's benfit. :mooner:

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you're kinda funny.

Thank you Shellon and Doojable, :eusa_clap:

This isn't the kind of thing that we haven't seen here many, many times and in my mind only confirms that my former friends have developed along the same line as TWI apologists in so much as their best shot is often just unsubstansiated and somewhat thuggish insults.

I am quoting this one in order to have it stick around for a while just in case the author ends up determining rightly so that this post is a huge mistake and tries to edit it or something...

I did invite them to come out and dance with me in broad daylight after all and I am happy to do so. I may not have any more time online until Monday sometime, so I am glad that some of the rest of you are willing to answer such deragatory comments. If they coninue on I may request that the mods remove a long drawn out conversation here from "my story" and maybe make it a new thread or something similar.This little bit only serves to show exactly what kind of Christians I was up against in River Road fellowship.

I am assuming that your name here at GSC is a direct answer to my concerns that I have expressed publically doingjustfinethankyou. If you think being highmindedly judgemental and mean is doing just fine I suppose that is your business, but I know better. :cryhug_1_:

If you wish to discuss something specific make it another thread, I'm fairly certain the mods will not allow a long drawn out conflict here because this area has been somewhat reserved for a specific purpose. I know you have been taught and shown that virtually any nasty, astisocial, and damaging behavior can be justified in either God's name or in the name of "the ministry" but here you have to at least try to adhere to a format that has been set up for everybody's benfit. :mooner:

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Hi Geisha,

The comparisons between the so-called New Testament and the Old Testament seem potentially very fruitful yet fraught with possible error, and the later observation unfortunately is just a simple matter of recollection for me and not simple speculation.

It is generally true I believe that the dispensationalism that Wierwille took fron Bullinger for the most part screwed up or ability to get the correct lessons from the OT. I remember that when it suited Wierwille he took upon himself to destroy the lives of men, women, and their children if he chose to. And he didn't do it with actual swords as recorded in the OT, but by controlling peoples' loyalties and manipulating their situations which were totally within the control of his iron grip. As such he presented a fearful and impressive counterfeit of how God works, and unfortunately many people still seem captivated by the man and others like him such as the folks who are a part of my former splinter group, "River Road Fellowship".

When I was in the middle of that struggle I often responded with scripture such as, "As you judge, so shall ye be judged" or other scriptures in order to try to help Barnard turn from the high minded insanity he learned from Wierwille. Now that I am out of RRF and see things more clearly than when I was in the middle of them all I see that not only do Barnard and unfortunately many of his lapdogs deserve that fate that our Lord warned them of, but Barnard's sin and insanity was far worse than I knew at the time. Now I believe that the things they did in order to break me will be returned upon their own heads with change to spare, except for (maybe) those that did not know they were doing evil may recieve fewer stripes as our Lord has promised some mercy on the ignorant evil doers.

While I find many of the OT laws to be harsh and unnecessary, I also am certain that in the prophets there is talk of and acknowledgement saying that God was fully well aware of the truth that he gave them harsh commandments that the children of Israel were not able to keep and even were plainly called "Not Good" in some respects. But IMO even these excessively harsh commandments have enough truth in them that I can usually relate them to myself in a figurative and/or spiritual sense.

As far as the future judgments promised to those who are of faith there is still plenty of direct warnings IMO that should give us pause to fear doing evil.

This is not funny.

(Added in editing)

But this was......

"I SEE YOU"VE COME TO THE BATTLE OF WITS UNARMED." :biglaugh:

Edited by JeffSjo

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Thank you, I got a little emotional myself at the last few posts..... :blush: I didn't respond right away in order to collect my thoughts.

One of the things that for at least right now that I seem to despise the most about "River Road Fellowship" and from a greater distance, "The Way International" is the controlled environment under which praise and/or insults are handed out.

And IMO the effect of "get a life" vs. "honestly shared appreciation" are exactly the friggin opposite of each other.

We were expected to learn that when leadership praised somebody we were to elevate them, and when they condemned somebody we were expected in a similar fashion to reject them. I am certain, speaking for just myself, that I believed my lieing, manipulative, bastard leadership when they either praised or condemned somebody, more than I care to admit. There were several marraiges before mine that Barnard ruined before I ever got around to realizing that his lieing, twisted perspective applied to these others as much as it did to me.

One of the things that I am waiting for because I earnestly wish to kick some twisted and ignorant butt is to finally hear exactly what RRF leadership said about me behind my back in order to make sure that everybody that knew me would willingly turn away from me and my broken life even as I was progressively isolated further and further away from anything resembling brotherly love and into Barnard's devilish version of extreme judgement.

Bring it on!

Edited by JeffSjo

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God first

hi JeffSjo

What do you say to someone that apparently blames others for every bad thing in his life?

May I make a couple suggestions?

1-get a life

2-get your facts straight

3-get spell check

I am doing just fine thank you

0

JeffSjo has a real life but its true JeffSjo does not want your life doingjustfinethankyou rotten life

JeffSjo is fine but you must not be

JeffSjo fact are straight better than a bible or PFAL the biggest lie ever told

and JeffSjo better than you

and I do believe your fine because your manners show the truth

thanks

with love and a holy kiss Roy

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Once a deliberately encouraged group think has been become the norm always being "the bad guy" is automatically the result of going against the grain.

For me, I was the bad guy while fighting to have a child and desiring to being a father.And also, I was "the bad guy" while I was fighting to stay married to my ex-wife while she was selling out to this bastard who has been reported to have been sleeping with most, if not all of the women of "River Road Fellowship."

And as these things pertain to the topic of this thread, I am very concerned about those whose familial relationships were already broken down. On the one hand, how many parents are seeking to restore a healthy relationship with their kids. And how many kids are so far gone from their parents that they don't even realize that their knee-jerk rejection of their parents is simply a result of being manipulated by a skilled sociopathic predator.

And even for those that are in this situation, knowing how to come out of this situation and deal with it is a long, long process, and certainly not easy IMO.

Edited by JeffSjo

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In this I am thankful, TWI seems to be a dried and dead pile of stale, rehashed, subpar biblical fellowship for most kids nowadays based on what I've heard.

Not so much in my former splinter group "River Road Fellowship." Although considering how my former associates are steeped in denial that is lamely covered by twisted TWI style cliches RRF folks seemed headed down the same TWI style road.

The younger generation rightly rejects their parents' foolishness and the parents are stuck in a place of inaction and stupidity IMO. In the case of some of the younger ones that have left they actually seem fairly well enthralled by the very son of the one who so abused their mothers...sad. But it was not too long ago when their youthful exuberance was spent on the one who so brutally destroyed families and set himself up as the so-called "Word in the Flesh."

______________________________

River Road Felllowship under the leadership of Victor Barnard, 14th Corps grad:

Abused women and girls.

Broken families.

Idiots in denial held captive by religious cliches within some twisted and freaky group think.

Younger adults enthralled and controlled by Barnard's methods being led to a place that looks new but still under the same old yolk of deception and manipulation.

______________________________

I seems to me that much of this may not apply to TWI as a whole, perhaps because TWI is very much farther along the road to simply drying up and being blown away, lost forever in every sense except the Lord will remember IMO.

But perhaps for some, whether another splinter or as it may relate to more current recruits this thread may be a good read. I hope so.

(edited for spelling errors)

Edited by JeffSjo

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JL came to Rush City, Mn. to visit with Victor Barnard back before V. Barnard moved River Road Fellowship to Finlayson, Mn. Acording to Barnard, JL offered him a check for $100,000 and told him to build a new church with the money. Barnard reportedly turned this money down.

On one hand, I can't credit myself with too much sense as I was just getting more and more involved with Barnard at the time in a situation where my clear conscience cost me my wife, child, and most everything concrete in my life that I worked toward for years.

But on the other hand, looking back on it I can't credit JL with too much good sense as he reportedly gave Victor Barnard a $100,000 check to build a church with. If Barnard had built a church building in Rush City, Mn. it is all too easy to imagine how many more victims Barnard might have had. And even though JL did a bit in order to expose Wierwille's true personal habits I am tremendously unsatisfied with his overall response as concerning Way Ministry victims.

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I think the thing that saddens me most about this is that I do not trust Victor Barnard or John Lynn to tell the entire truth of this matter any more. My lasting impression of Way Ministry leadership is such that I am no longer surprised if their own fellowship resembles a base example of first and foremost being only concerned about establishing a pecking order. Shortly to be followed by coming up with stories that show themselves in a good light where the TRUTH is amoung the first casualties.

Yeah Dave, that was Barnard's story and it was a topic of discussion for quite some time amoung those of us in River Road Fellowship. And unfortunately as my thread in "My Story" confirms for me there is no shortage of folks in River Road Fellowship who choose to either lie about or remain silent concerning Victor Barnard's actions. I'm betting John Lynn in true Way International fashion recoils from the light of honesty like some kind of B-movie vampire creature too! However John Lynn really is, my impression is based on considerable personal observation of Way International leadership norms, IMO.

Back in those Rush City days there was much more going on than you were privy too Dave. I've come to consider Pharis a false prophet for prophecying of Barnard's apostolic ministry. And Pharis had a big movement in mind and in his prophecies centering around a great work where several of us were pumped up to join in with in colorful terms such as "run to the battle" along with many other encouragements.

I've come to consider the Momentus sessions we went through as their cash cow also. Considering all the dollars Momentus was bring in for them I'm still not at the place where I dismiss Barnard's claims of holding a $100,000 in his hands outright. But then again I've come to recognize Barnard as lieing only when his lips are moving. :o

Either way, to try to bring this back on track....

I give no credibility to John Lynn in his track record of picking out legitimately helpful ministries, friends, or his handling of ministry money. He could change my opinion I suppose, but transparancy, humility, and honesty aren't exactly his long suits IMO.

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I've come to consider Pharis a false prophet for prophecying of Barnard's apostolic ministry.

isn't this the guy (pharis) who taught the stiffies almost everything the supposedly know about "personal prophecy" ?

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I'm not certain about the full extent of Pharis' influence but as Pharis shared it seemed JL was certainly paying attention Ham. And it seemed obvious to me that Lynn at the time was just learning about this stuff, but that was just my impression for whatever it's worth.

One of the exercizes the pharisites did was to line folks up facing away from the folks who were to be practicing personal prophecying. Then the pharisites in traning were to practise directing prophecies at one of the folks in the line that faced away from them. If a particular person in that line knew it was directed at them thay were to raise their hand. Whoever proved to consistently nail individuals prophetically without using their names or other overtly individual information were reckoned to be prophets in training.

I would think it would be the ideal excersize if you want a ministry of highly intelligent sociopaths to be directing people's lives through prophecying, but that's just my take on things. Maybe I just don't see what Pharis-see. hehehehe

Edited by JeffSjo

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Ok, so when I was in River Road Fellowship I was likened to Nabal and Ahab. I was called a false prophet. I was referrred to as anti-christ, both before I left and referring to what I'd do after they kicked me out.

That would be examples of Barnard's thugs "exegesis" or "eisegesis", or something else?

Either way, when it was in my face a little but behind my back a lot, it was very hurtful.

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I like the idea of this conversation moving into real world examples and I think some of the latest posts have cleared up my working definition of "eisegesis." However, if my working definition of the term comes up short, for me this is relatively inconsequential compared to the events and the consequences I am describing. Nevertheless, I'd prefer to be using the word eisegesis correctly and would appreciate any necessary correction.

Eisegesis worked against me in River Road Fellowship under the sway of one man, Victor Barnard.

Under his watch anyone could be terrorized any time they showed signs of thinking for themselves. And ANY negative biblical character or storyline that could be used to put people down was used, and regularly so IMO.

As I shared about somewhere in "my story" he likened me to Nabal, who died, and then his wife went to David in the biblical storyline. In a practical sense having an intellectual and somewhat sterile discussion concerning eisegesis doesn't do justice in and of itself to the amount of damage and control a free wheeling sociopath can do to somebody's life by controlling people's perception of the truth through eisegesis.

It seems true that everytime The Way International called somebody "possessed" they in effect did the same thing, and many here can attest to the damage it can cause.

Edited by JeffSjo

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I didn't leave The Way exactly, because I ended up in a twisted splinter group in Minnesota that devoloped after the shiny forehead's demand for letters of loyalty.

For the sake of my marraige and having been weened on Wayville's dogsoldier doctrine I left a long time after I knew my splinter was completely rotten, but my head was also jumbled up by some twisted Way versions of loyalty to leadership for God's sake too.

To make a long story short they kicked me out after moving my wife and son out of my house and also firing me from my job with one of the leadership folks. I kept my house for seven months with them all around me but ignoring me.

Edited by JeffSjo

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I washed my former splinter group leader's (Victor Barnard's) feet once.

He sat through it like some kind of Royalty with a stupid condecending smirk on his face.

My then wife said to me later, I can't believe you washed his feet, looking at me like I was some kind of cretinous fool. (This was long before anybody told me he had been habitually bedding the women.)

I looked at her and said, "I had to, his feet were dirty. :mellow: "

Edited by JeffSjo

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I had this conversation in Facebook messages recently with one of the younger men who came from River Road Fellowship. I'm removin the reference to his identity and editing some of his cussing.......And my words are in green.

DOES THIS SOUND LIKE ANYONE ELSE WE KNOW?

Craig Martindale vs. David Koresh: One was a crazy cult leader who slept with married women whose husbands were loyal followers and had numerous screwy, nutty, and stupid doctrines who isolated his followers as best he could in order to dominate them........... and the other was David Koresh!?

I don't know what the f___ you're talking about most of the time, old school... and honestly, I don't give a f___. I've moved on... and it's a shame that you haven't. So, with that said, find someone else to try to feed this pointless bull____ to. Thank you. and you have a great f___in day.

I am glad you answered J___, of all the messages I sent out you are the one to respond and Thank you for that.

But what I hear in your response is egyptian to me, you know, just denile. Ohhh, and snottiness too.

What's your point?

After some consideration and a little observation I think you act just like them, at least that's how some of you treat me.

Same cottemptive dismissiveness.

Same sarcasm.

Same behind the scenes effort at guiding others' opinions.

And unfortunately for you I don't expect anything different from you now.

There has been no response yet. But he has been close to "The father's son"(from post #72 on this thread) as far as I have heard.

Edited by JeffSjo

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Not an entirely easy subject for me yet either. Just last night I was considering, I'm a PFAL grad and have no other biblical teaching in my life since Lutheran Confirmation sessions as a teen.

I considered this in light of my virtually wholesale presentation of The Way International in my "Post Mortem of The Way International" thread as a diseased body both dead and on the verge of death, followed shortly by a burning up of the diseased remains, of course.

Last night I was considering that I am a PFAL grad, so what about me?

To the best of my understanding here it is in hopefully meaningful little blurbs:

I did learn Bible in The Way International.

I didn't get adequate Christain counseling for my own horny young man issues, but I never took a married woman, abused my position of authority(perhaps because I did not have one.), and never ceased to feel somewhat guilty of my youthful indescretions which for the record weren't numerous or had abusive intentions.

I didn't get, in hindsight, any worthwhile guidance concerning making my life either useful or productive in The Way, just encouraged to send my life down the deliberately servile and fruitless TWI path of service.

I did get involved in a splinter group in Minnesota after Martindale's call for loyalty letters because our limb leader left and most people left the Way.

I thought it was a good thing to get a second chance at trying to be a successful believer again (yes, there were guilt issues involved) but turned out to only have been supporting a sociopatic and insane man who took my unwillingness to give up this time as an opprtunity to slowly destroy both my life and my family behind my back while I was attempting to confront biblical mistakes that went from bad to really crazy under Victor Barnard's control.

Came to GSC a wrecked man and found out that it wasn't just Barnard that was crazy, but that The Way International was bad, bad, and worse from the begining. And virtually every single thing that I heard about The Way here fit virtually exactly the same disease that I saw up close and personal in River Road Fellowship.

As for myself, my conscience is clear but I also know I'm not the final judge of me, and The Way is obviously flawed and disease ridden to me. But funny enough (or maybe not) I'm still thankful for being taught some bible. And the doctrine was much more flawed than I ever knew, probably still don't.

It's just that IMO what Wierwille was and what us Wayfers thought he was was, was a lie. A convincing public lie carried out through unwitting and good hearted people unto this day.

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Even though I did think to say goodbye to The Greasespot Cafe once before I feel it necessary to do it again friends. This time it feels different for me though and I have some things to say in parting and I will follow through with my stated course this time.

It has been an amazing experience, finding my voice at GSC. And for me it was a simple matter of getting the real story as to what was going on in The Way International in order for me to more fully make sense of what the heck happened in River Road Fellowship.

I can't tell you folks enough how precious it is that there are a few people with the courage to make plain their ugly experiences while in The Way.

I have found precious little of that kind of honesty among folks I knew in River Road Fellowship. One person had the courage to say it "on the record" and that is our own Granddaughter and she did it here at the GSC.

When I first arrived here their were several folks who appeared to have worked their way into the good graces of folks here at GSC who were actively working to beat down and silence TWI victims. And among some of those who have been here much longer than me there were a few who told me that these folks were valuable long time members of GSC. In spite of that I thought these folks were playing TWI inspired games along the lines of "How to Win Friends and Influence People" in order to silence Way victims and I got angry.

Well, it seems my instincts were right. Now they are no where to be seen. At least one seems to have abandoned an old GSC identity to take a new one here. Others have been banned because after going at it with them for a while GSC admin seems to have woken up to the fact that these trolls were actually harming TWI victims and that was happening right here at GSC.

No matter the truth of these events that is my take on them and I am glad their voices are no longer here at GSC! And that leads me to another observation.

For me, perhaps because of the limtation of this medium the Greasespot Cafe has come to resemble an empty pot of sorts. Or perhaps now that my voice has developed it is better stated as seeming to yell into a cave and the only response I get back is my empty echos.

I have spoken to support people to hold to their anonymity when certain trolls had been berating them for it while maintaining their own anonymity. It was pretty easy to shut them up when I offered them the chance to put their own action where their big mouths had taken them and say who they were the same as I had. :B) Where are these guys? Good riddance!

Also I have come to understand that the internet is a place where many people lie about who they are, some for sick and twisted reasons. This is why I will not beat people up for maintaining their anonymity, period.

But because of what for many people are good reasons to maintain anonymity it does have an overall effect on those of us who are honest about who we are and are looking for real, live, flesh and blood friendship as I have plainly stated before. To us it leaves the Greasespot Cafe as an empty experience of sorts, and I do believe that is ok too.

But these things have proven to be a factor necessitating a clean and open exit from The Greasespot. And perhaps I can share a little with you all before I go.

As I have said, my life is pretty much broken as a result of River Road Fellowship. Even though I am very thankful for the chance to develop my voice here at GSC it has become somewhat of and empty, echo filled experience to continually post with not much follow up conversation.

And I must now leave this in order to be able to face my mostly broken life. Hopefully, by the Grace of God I can eventually explore the possibilities that my voice might actually help people. But it can never be in a person free environment again, where all that I receive back at me is empty echos and necessary speculation as to my voice's effect for lack of feedback and friendship.

But as my prospects are not good in any secular sense I can only hope that my voice can actually help folks. Now I must face debt, a depressed part of the country with few prospects for a man with my lack of qualifications, a broken family including my seven year old boy who needs a father even more in the coming years, and a community whose views of folks who have been put through the ringer as I have normally goes along with wariness and misunderstanding.

But at least I have my voice. :B) Yeah, I really, really need to leave The Greasespot Cafe now.

I will pm some of you who I seem to have developed somewhat of a relationship with and I will be leaving my account open for a time in case anyone wants to E-mail me. But in a few weeks time I will close my GSC account, and my Facebook account, I really need to get offline and into real life. It's not pretty, but necessary IMO.

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Hi jeff, fairly new here and sorry i never got to 'meet ya ' It's a long way down here in the land of 'downunda' anyways :rolleyes: It breaks God's heart when families fall apart, what can I say...twi nearly suceeded with me & my family, bas*ar@s.I do wish you all the best & will s.i.t. for you & your boy as I think of it.I have a 7 y.o. son, you hang in there, do whatever it takes, & remain strong & loving for him. Honestly, after what I went through, I thought afterwards IF it had gone 'the other way' I would prob be behind prison bars for what I would have done to a cupla twi demons, but then our prison sentences are pretty lenient compared to the States eh ! All the best sir :knuddel:

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Hi jeff, fairly new here and sorry i never got to 'meet ya ' It's a long way down here in the land of 'downunda' anyways :rolleyes: It breaks God's heart when families fall apart, what can I say...twi nearly suceeded with me & my family, bas*ar@s.I do wish you all the best & will s.i.t. for you & your boy as I think of it.I have a 7 y.o. son, you hang in there, do whatever it takes, & remain strong & loving for him. Honestly, after what I went through, I thought afterwards IF it had gone 'the other way' I would prob be behind prison bars for what I would have done to a cupla twi demons, but then our prison sentences are pretty lenient compared to the States eh ! All the best sir :knuddel:

Thank you kind sir,

Yeah, I hear you. I would be lying if I said that such a response NEVER even crossed my mind.

But I think my boy is better off in that I didn't completely go off the deep end.

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Feeling nostalgic for some of my earlier threads, these are three of my favorites, and yes I believe in the resurrection. hehehe

"Grieved By The Way International"

"SPIN DOCTORS, BLECH!"

"This one's for Hona Lee" (On my part this thread was partly botched but directed at The Way as pertaining to the old "Johnny Lingo" video.)

Edited by JeffSjo

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Just a quick visit if anybody is paying attention.

This is part of "my story" as it applies to the internet now.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I recently wrote this:"I don't really know much about you, I don't know for sure when I'll be back. But I do know I've seen treasure in your heart and even though I don't have the right to ask anything of you I nevertheless hope that one thing, your precious treasure is true."

I can't speak for what the children of Wayfers believe, heck, I'm still working on what I believe. And as far as the internet goes, people can and probably should be careful about what they reveal.

But since I happen to still hold the scriptures dear I mostly don't want to be overbearing, paranoid, needlessly cruel and/or judgmental, or come down hard on people who I don't know that well and end up just hurting them worse like some kind of manipulative douche bag might.

And I wouldn't want them to be brought into any kind of pseudo-TWI culture where the top dogs hide their douchiness :jump: behind a few grateful supporters who aren't necessarily wrong in being grateful while they don't know what a douche bag their chosen leader really is.

And I wouldn't want to be quick to forget how The Way International suckered almost all of us into following them under the guise of the leaders being our protectors from imagined dangers that us poor saps couldn't possibly ever learn to deal with. While in truth these same leaders were more concerned with their own status with in the group that allowed them to nail one gal after another. :realmad:

I might be proven a fool in believing and hoping for the next-gen to be proven true and good, but I won't be shamed for hoping for it and giving a damn. :mooner:

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