Bramble didn't say anything - not that I have anything against Bramble, or what Bramble says - just that it wasn't Bramble.
Oops, sorry, a little embarassed too.
I see that Bramble posted #9 on this thread but you; Tzaia; posted #11 which was the one which I had quoted.
It was another means of control. PERIOD. My belief is that if God has something God really wants me to know, then God is able to get my attention. While God may need to use other people, I tend to believe that's a last ditch effort. It was not looked at that way. It was more along the lines of a better or more mature understanding of spiritual matters, which based upon past experiences, SHOULD have thrown up a huge red flag.
I literally would not let anyone speak prophecy over me. I think it's something along the lines of "I know something you don't know," which, IMO, is arrogant BS.
This was done at JAL & EL's (first) wedding ceremony and look how that whole thing turned out. The very same person spoke all this great stuff concerning EL at her wedding and a few months later she's claiming God has revealed spiders coming out of EL's nose? Really!? They ALL freakin' jumped on it. Every last one of them - supposedly without ANY instigation on anyone's part. REALLY!?
Dear Tzaia,
I can sympathize and relate to how you feel about prophecy. While hypothetically speaking I think that a prophecy may be genuine I find that in practise the prospect has me feeling more than a little feisty. I feel that for me the prospect alone seems to have virtually every one of my defenses at the ready. And I would really, really hope that for me that God would be the very first to appreciate my willingness to duke it out with the purported prophet/prophetess for the sake of proving things to be true and good verses just another jerkwater prophet who can not see past his/her own personal agenda and sells it in God's name.
And thank you for giving me the context of the vision that lead to this thread as far as me being able to understand a bit of where all the creepy imagery was coming from.
I do not know EL. Nor do I know JAL's marraige history, heck I don't even know how many times he's been married if at all more than the one wife I remember hearing about in the old days.
But my supposed personal prophecy (that my very own Grandpa's warning to me started me questioning the validity of) was given by a prophet that was very close to JAL in the days when he was moving that completely bogus momentus class. And if the vision that EL heard of was given by anyone that was associated with the prophet that JAL was working with in those days then I am just sorry for the pain that considering these things must have caused her to feel. I'll just call this supposed prophet "Greg Ferret" for now, I honestly don't remember if his first name is "Craig or Greg", but the "Ferret" part simply amuses me. It does roughly rhyme with the guy's real last name.
You have nice personal prophesies much better than spiders and noses.
DEAR BOWTWI, THANK YOU, THAT'S HOW IT IS LOOKING TO ME TOO IN A REAL BIG WAY!
Awe, thank you Dot. Yes, those things do bless me. But if they had been posted with any implication of "Thus saith the Lord" involved that even though I really, REALLY like the sentiment I would be on guard in a big, big way. I guess I've seen to many prophecies end up falling to the ground. And if they were said as prophecies I would then have to deal with a whole other level of tension.
I've been looking through this now. Thank you, thank you very much Shellon for telling me where I could find some specific info.
I'm kind of amazed at how this stuff went down.
but in my owm little splinter group the prophets were on a very short leash and had to kiss V.B.'s a$$ in a very big way to be heard. It seems in this case these prophets tied themselves in with the ones who ran the show just as much as V.B.'s little toads were forced to do with him.
It's easy to say now looking back, but it is a lot more difficult or perhaps even impossible to put a stop to this sort of thing when the false prophets tie themselves in with the top leadership.
I think that in reality it is pretty stupid for everyone who reads a bible record to assume that they would recognize the truth and avoid the false prophets.
I think human capacity for self-delusion is fairly evident if we can be honest, but when it is tied into a ministry that is supposedly teaching and speaking for God delusion seems nearly innevitable to me now.
I think that whenever I read scriptures in years past it was common for me to assume that I would automatically get it. but that happened when I still thought that TWI stood for God. What a schmuck I was.
I would agree that it's easy to be self-delusioned and yeah, that is honest, but I'd also add that because we're human, we can understand now that our human-ness is ok.
And the shi+ that happened in our lives won't happen again, that's for damn sure. So there is something to that, isn't there? Some comfort of experience, even if painful in the getting.
TWI and others, including the group in which you found yourself, played on that human-ness, that vulnerability, they used us, Jeff, abused our intelligence, our human capacity for logic, took advantage of our very lives, spouses, our children.
I don't see that as schmuck properties, I see that as realizing now that you're pi$$ed off ! and that's what has to happen and be maintained in order that no one is allowed to do so again in our lives, to our children, to those we love.
I speak often and openly about grief and understand it's not just the loss of a person in our lives to death that requires us to go through the process of grieving. It's also the loss of a job, a home, a marriage and yes, even a religious organization we believed in, supported, believed.
We have to go head first into the stages and I, personally, prefer the final anger and have ever intention of maintaining it where people like this are concerned.
Like the guy who gets conned so badly that it costs him everything is likely to be the most wary to get conned again.
One of the things about calling myself a schmuck was to deliberately point out that in my view I am better than nobody in this respect. We are all potential subjects of a con. And even if we can tend to assume reading the scriptural records that we would not be decieved, well in my case all the years I assumed I was serving God when in fact I was serving the self interest of not just one self-serving narcissistic turd like Wierwille and his TWI but then I was taken in by another self-serving nacrcissistic turd and his River Road Fellowship.
And now in more than one case these creepy prophecies and imagery have served to put people down like EL, well, anger may be an issue for me too, but I don't feel that my anger is missplaced. Why shouldn't we get angry at a$$ kissing false prophets who ingratiate themselves with false leadership to facilitate their control over people's lives?
I remember Greg Ferret back in the days when he was running with JAL say how they trained the prophets.(so called, that is.) And I see nothing sound in any of this now. I do feel for EL who because of her hubby's lack of spiritual perception had to endure such battering. At least as I was conned I did not put on airs as any great leader or give myself a nickname that also implied "the king". BOY, IF THAT WERE THE CASE I'D CONSIDER MYSELF TO HAVING EARNED A "DOUBLE SCHMUCK" AWARD.
Please refer to all 10 pages for even more details.
I've been reading and thinking about this work by Dr. Juedes since you put it here darlin.
I am really glad that you put it here for everyone to look at without needing to do any digging. It's simple to do and allows everybody to understand (especially me) why I've been looking at creepy bug imagery here from time to time.
It seems to me that Juedes' conclusions run very closely to the things that I've picked up from my own experiences. And he gave us many well laid out doctrinal points to consider.
But for me the thing that really gets me is that even though I generally resisted all these types of things as a part of "River Road Fellowship" is that I could not stop them from maintaining an abusive and controlling relationship with everyone else in the group and that I did not stop them from convincing my ex-wife that I was evil for resisting them.
One of the hugest things for me to see is that because I still felt that Wierwille was sound at the time of these events is that I was fighting crap that had already taken root in our heart and life that was a big stinky load of crapola, but I did not know it.
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waysider
Maybe they had subconscious memories of
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JeffSjo
Oops, sorry, a little embarassed too.
I see that Bramble posted #9 on this thread but you; Tzaia; posted #11 which was the one which I had quoted.
Dear Tzaia,
I can sympathize and relate to how you feel about prophecy. While hypothetically speaking I think that a prophecy may be genuine I find that in practise the prospect has me feeling more than a little feisty. I feel that for me the prospect alone seems to have virtually every one of my defenses at the ready. And I would really, really hope that for me that God would be the very first to appreciate my willingness to duke it out with the purported prophet/prophetess for the sake of proving things to be true and good verses just another jerkwater prophet who can not see past his/her own personal agenda and sells it in God's name.
And thank you for giving me the context of the vision that lead to this thread as far as me being able to understand a bit of where all the creepy imagery was coming from.
I do not know EL. Nor do I know JAL's marraige history, heck I don't even know how many times he's been married if at all more than the one wife I remember hearing about in the old days.
But my supposed personal prophecy (that my very own Grandpa's warning to me started me questioning the validity of) was given by a prophet that was very close to JAL in the days when he was moving that completely bogus momentus class. And if the vision that EL heard of was given by anyone that was associated with the prophet that JAL was working with in those days then I am just sorry for the pain that considering these things must have caused her to feel. I'll just call this supposed prophet "Greg Ferret" for now, I honestly don't remember if his first name is "Craig or Greg", but the "Ferret" part simply amuses me. It does roughly rhyme with the guy's real last name.
DEAR BOWTWI, THANK YOU, THAT'S HOW IT IS LOOKING TO ME TOO IN A REAL BIG WAY!
Awe, thank you Dot. Yes, those things do bless me. But if they had been posted with any implication of "Thus saith the Lord" involved that even though I really, REALLY like the sentiment I would be on guard in a big, big way. I guess I've seen to many prophecies end up falling to the ground. And if they were said as prophecies I would then have to deal with a whole other level of tension.
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JeffSjo
HEY, right now page one of this thread has a couple of exterminator adds on top.
Right now that is a little irony that I can get into.....
Get thee behind me spidey-butt. (See post #12) Good one Waysider, and a well loaded statement too. hehehe
(yep, it was spelling that I had to correct....sigh)
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Shellon
Jeff and others who have perhaps not read this, following is the link around here to read all about this in more specific detail.
THE CHARACTER OF THE PROPHECIES
Please refer to all 10 pages for even more details.
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JeffSjo
I've been looking through this now. Thank you, thank you very much Shellon for telling me where I could find some specific info.
I'm kind of amazed at how this stuff went down.
but in my owm little splinter group the prophets were on a very short leash and had to kiss V.B.'s a$$ in a very big way to be heard. It seems in this case these prophets tied themselves in with the ones who ran the show just as much as V.B.'s little toads were forced to do with him.
It's easy to say now looking back, but it is a lot more difficult or perhaps even impossible to put a stop to this sort of thing when the false prophets tie themselves in with the top leadership.
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JeffSjo
I think that in reality it is pretty stupid for everyone who reads a bible record to assume that they would recognize the truth and avoid the false prophets.
I think human capacity for self-delusion is fairly evident if we can be honest, but when it is tied into a ministry that is supposedly teaching and speaking for God delusion seems nearly innevitable to me now.
I think that whenever I read scriptures in years past it was common for me to assume that I would automatically get it. but that happened when I still thought that TWI stood for God. What a schmuck I was.
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Shellon
I would agree that it's easy to be self-delusioned and yeah, that is honest, but I'd also add that because we're human, we can understand now that our human-ness is ok.
And the shi+ that happened in our lives won't happen again, that's for damn sure. So there is something to that, isn't there? Some comfort of experience, even if painful in the getting.
TWI and others, including the group in which you found yourself, played on that human-ness, that vulnerability, they used us, Jeff, abused our intelligence, our human capacity for logic, took advantage of our very lives, spouses, our children.
I don't see that as schmuck properties, I see that as realizing now that you're pi$$ed off ! and that's what has to happen and be maintained in order that no one is allowed to do so again in our lives, to our children, to those we love.
I speak often and openly about grief and understand it's not just the loss of a person in our lives to death that requires us to go through the process of grieving. It's also the loss of a job, a home, a marriage and yes, even a religious organization we believed in, supported, believed.
We have to go head first into the stages and I, personally, prefer the final anger and have ever intention of maintaining it where people like this are concerned.
Stay angry, stuff gets done.
:)
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JeffSjo
Yeah, anger certainly does have it's place.
Like the guy who gets conned so badly that it costs him everything is likely to be the most wary to get conned again.
One of the things about calling myself a schmuck was to deliberately point out that in my view I am better than nobody in this respect. We are all potential subjects of a con. And even if we can tend to assume reading the scriptural records that we would not be decieved, well in my case all the years I assumed I was serving God when in fact I was serving the self interest of not just one self-serving narcissistic turd like Wierwille and his TWI but then I was taken in by another self-serving nacrcissistic turd and his River Road Fellowship.
And now in more than one case these creepy prophecies and imagery have served to put people down like EL, well, anger may be an issue for me too, but I don't feel that my anger is missplaced. Why shouldn't we get angry at a$$ kissing false prophets who ingratiate themselves with false leadership to facilitate their control over people's lives?
I remember Greg Ferret back in the days when he was running with JAL say how they trained the prophets.(so called, that is.) And I see nothing sound in any of this now. I do feel for EL who because of her hubby's lack of spiritual perception had to endure such battering. At least as I was conned I did not put on airs as any great leader or give myself a nickname that also implied "the king". BOY, IF THAT WERE THE CASE I'D CONSIDER MYSELF TO HAVING EARNED A "DOUBLE SCHMUCK" AWARD.
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JeffSjo
I've been reading and thinking about this work by Dr. Juedes since you put it here darlin.
I am really glad that you put it here for everyone to look at without needing to do any digging. It's simple to do and allows everybody to understand (especially me) why I've been looking at creepy bug imagery here from time to time.
It seems to me that Juedes' conclusions run very closely to the things that I've picked up from my own experiences. And he gave us many well laid out doctrinal points to consider.
But for me the thing that really gets me is that even though I generally resisted all these types of things as a part of "River Road Fellowship" is that I could not stop them from maintaining an abusive and controlling relationship with everyone else in the group and that I did not stop them from convincing my ex-wife that I was evil for resisting them.
One of the hugest things for me to see is that because I still felt that Wierwille was sound at the time of these events is that I was fighting crap that had already taken root in our heart and life that was a big stinky load of crapola, but I did not know it.
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