Great monologue by Harvey Fierstein

[johniam]

Garth:

quote: When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not care to support it, so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.

Oh, so if those "heretics" during the middle ages wanted a different religion than the Catholic church, and if "God" didn't protect them from the inquisition, they should expect no help from government? They are a bad religion if they want to be protected from attacks by a larger more corrupt religion? I really don't think that's what Franklin meant.

If they wanted favor from the government that they should be expecting from their God, that's something different, but even today there are situations where the government favors religions who are big and powerful enough to afford endless legal services. Bill Clinton wasn't afraid to go after microsoft, but he wouldn't dare go after the catholic church. The ACLU wouldn't dare go after them either. Don't tell me about separation of church and state while the catholic church is allowed to get away with what they do just because they have money.

[GarthP2000]

Johniam,

See, the situation you describe is just what happens when you have the factor of power corrupting the church, and you mix what the orgtanization (the church) with the power that is plentious in government.

THIS is the *classic* example of why we have (or should have) separation of church and state!

And the help that the 'heretical group' should get from the government is of a legal nature to protect them from the bigger, more 'orthodox' one. That is different than the government stepping in to propagate/support religion/religious views themselves.

And what Franklin meant by what he said was here we supposedly have a religion that portrays God's gospel to all. God is supposed to back it up and strengthen and provide for it, right? Right? I mean, we're talking about the church/religion/organization that is working for no less than The Almighty Soveriegn GOD here.

So-o-o, ... why do they need the backing/support/'bully pulpit' of the state? Ie., what amounts to religious socialism (think about that for a minute. See if it doesn't come to you). That is basically what Franklin was trying to point out. Ie., if it is a religion that can't get its help from God, so that it has to turn to the state for support, it must not be a very good one. For one thing, what does that say about the church's otherwise claim that God provides for all our needs, hmmmm? Like they really believed it, ehh?

Yah! :-

And, if I'm not mistaken, the ACLU have gone after/challenged the Catholic Church in various cases where the Catholic Church has tried to cross the church/state line. And if not in all of them, it needs to do more then.

[dabobbada]

Just so you know........

I had spent several hours making a long reply to Garths stuff and when I went to log onto the net, something crashed and it went the way of lost sox and car keys.

Damn this crap sometimes!

I'm feeling poorly at the moment, my health sux and I never know when I will have a good day or not, so I can't at this moment say when I can reply. It may be a day, a week, even a month unfortunately, I never know. (I'm still pretty tired from the pre-election political fights. ) I always have to watch my energy levels, and consider carefully how I spend them. :(-->

I am very tired and my eyes can't focus now, I hope to reply more soon.

quote:

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Garth bragged:

:D--> If being a pain in the a$$ is an art form, then I'm Michelangelo. ;)-->

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:D--> :D--> :D-->

Sorry Garth, we could have had fun with it. :D-->

[GarthP2000]

Dabodabba,

OUCH!! I know how ya feel dude. There are times when I think that Bill Gate$ needs to have his sorry a$$ dragged out into the street and whopped a good one for all the 'innovations' (read insecure fixes) that his company plagued Windows with.

I'll keep your health in my thoughts, and hope you get better, ... so we can duke it out in Part Duex of our 'discussion'. :D-->

And as to my Michelangelo statement, have all the fun ya want with it.

[johniam]

Garth:

quote: And the help that the 'heretical group' should get from the government is of a legal nature to protect them from the bigger, more 'orthodox' one. That is different than the government stepping in to propagate/support religion/religious views themselves.

I agree with that.

quote: So-o-o, ... why do they need the backing/support/'bully pulpit' of the state? Ie., what amounts to religious socialism

Yeh, but the help that liberals get from the state amounts to liberal socialism (that creation is not taught in schools but evolution is and things like that).