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Everything posted by johniam

  1. I want to add something to the first post on this thread. It could be inserted right after the sentence in which I use the phrase 'there are many antichrists'. Beginning in 1976, 4 movies were made entitled 'The Omen'. These movies are about the antichrist. The 4th one was made late 80s/ early 90s and in that one, the antichrist is a girl. There are scenes in that movie that, to me, are downright comical. In at least one of these movies, the idea is put forth that the antichrist will be some kind of genetic wonder, who has the right combination of genes to the most evil person...EVER!!! This is horse crap. The devil doesn't know exactly when Christ is coming back. The 2nd coming of Christ begins with the gathering together. The entire body of Christ, dead and living will be gathered together and taken from the earth. When that happens, all spiritual light will be gone, and only then can darkness make itself manifest to the degree that there will be an antichrist. The devil doesn't know when that's going to happen, so he has to have somebody ready to step in and assume that position at ALL TIMES. It will be a position of opportunity. That's why there have to be many antichrists, not just one with a genetic pedigree.
  2. quote: For those interested in the source of your hissy fit they can see my post you quoted from - here ...have a nice day I find it intriguing that when I come here so many people obsessively make a point of attacking my credibility. Makes me think I must have something right. If ANYBODY here is having a "hissy fit"......??????
  3. quote: The Bible is treated as a closed book. A dead document. As I have said, new information is not being added. I find that a problem. In the grace administration, God's people have the same ability to walk by the spirit of God. No need to add anything. Churches don't teach people to walk by the spirit of God. They teach people to judge after the flesh and CALL it spiritual. I know we put up with a lot of that in twi. Not everything Martin Luther taught was rightly divided, but I think of him as one of the good guys. God will certainly sort out who was the real deal and who wasn't.
  4. quote: . Can you be more specific on what the “much deliverance” was? 2. Who are the “much people”? 3. How do YOU KNOW the NUMBER “church people” who – to this day lie in fear of losing their salvation? How did YOU quantify all that? Please elaborate what metrics you used, what surveys you conducted, and what churches these “church people” go to. It explains itself! Your "infallible doctrine" is that VP was a con artist and nothing else. I do not share that with you. So you call me an idol worshipper. That is your self righteous opinion. You have a lot of those.
  5. quote: The Bible is Not God. So a definitive answer wouldn't likely be there. This post is not Bolshevik, but it originates from Bolshevik. What's the difference?
  6. quote : So, it’s gone from About the Way forum to doctrinal forum…now we need a Kool-Aid testimonial forum…whatever. it’s hilarious how much diehard-wierwille-fans keep pushing that idle idol. There’s no use in logical debate of doctrine and Scripture interpretation with them cuz if wierwille said it – they believe it – that settles it. I did not make even ONE reference to VP in the first post on this thread nor the 2nd. You're just going to see what you want to see. Typical.
  7. quote: If any still believe VPW is a man of God, enjoy it while you can. VPW is DEAD! 37 yrs and counting. I believe he had a one of a kind ministry. Back in 1980 or so, the coordinator of the music group I was in said that VP was the 7th "THE man of God" and that this was very significant. I never heard that same message from anybody else and I'm not sure what it even means, but I do believe that VPs combination of gift ministries was unique, not cookie cutter. Nobody has duplicated the respect and impact he got from his people. LCM acted like he had automatically earned that respect, but he did not. Chris Geer doesn't try to be the MOGFODAT; he just brokers classes and lets local leadership work without interference. He openly disagrees with more than 15 points of VPs doctrine. The fellowship I attend is very non invasive compared to twi even back in the "good old days". As for VP, I think his teaching of incorruptible seed brought much deliverance to much people. Many church people to this day live in fear that their salvation could be 'foreclosed upon' at any time. Nice to know that isn't true. King David is the only person in the bible who is actually called a man after God's own heart, yet when he did what he did to Uriah the Hittite, the bible says the thing David did had displeased the Lord. So it's possible to be a man after God's own heart and still have the capacity to displease the Lord. Same for us. (I assume most of you believe some of the things VP did displeased God) We can be sons of God and still displease the Lord. We're still born of incorruptible seed, we'll still be rewarded at the gathering together, same for VP. VPs ministry changed my life. From my first twig to the present day. I will definitely enjoy that while I can.
  8. quote: This is a logical fallacy. How do you know what his motives were and how do you know what he wanted people to believe? Chapter and verse please. 2 Cor. 2:11 - Lest satan should get an advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. Luke 22:31 - And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. John 14:12 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. We are not ignorant of satan's devices, Jesus knew what satan wanted, and he said we could too. The reason you don't believe that us "lowly Christians" can do the works Jesus did is because you think He's God!
  9. quote: Maybe reread your paragraph. You say people have a choice . . . But it sounds like an ultimatum. You start off with love and end with a threat. The middle sentence feels like a lie in that context. Enjoy it while you can is not a threat, it means while you are still alive. God always gives you a choice. He will generally let you sink or swim based on the choices you make in life. One constant choice is to ask Him for his help (wink, wink).
  10. When the devil tempted Jesus, as recorded in both Matthew chapter 4 and in Luke chapter 4, he offered Jesus "all the kingdoms of this world and the glory of them". He further stated that those things belonged to him and that he could give them to whomever he wanted. If any of that had been false, Jesus would have called his bluff, but it was all true. If the devil never told the truth, then nobody would believe him about anything. He mixes just enough truth to feign plausibility, but, all the while, his intention is to deceive. He was however, free at this time, but that would change. Now, while Jesus was still finishing the work that his Father gave him to do, he encountered people who willingly, yet unwittingly, functioned as mouth pieces for the devil. These people called him a "sinner". They called him a "deceiver". They said of him, "he is mad (crazy) and hath a devil". They said of him, "he is as one that perverteth the people". In short, the devil, at this time, wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil and deserving of death by crucifixion. That changed as well. Now, after Jesus had finished the work that his Father gave him to do, he 1) was crucified 2) was raised from the dead 3)walked on the earth for 40 days after he was raised from the dead 4) on one occasion he was seen by 500 people after he was raised from the dead 5) he ascended into heaven and 6) he poured out God's gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost with the result that ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE received eternal life. This is ironic, because on the day that the law was given to Moses under the old covenant, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were put to death for worshipping a gold calf, an idol. On the day of Pentecost, at which time the new covenant became official, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were ordained unto eternal life. What about the devil? He is no longer free. Prior to the day of Pentecost, he wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil. Since the day of Pentecost, he NOW wants God's people to believe that Jesus is God. Why would he change like that? He did a 180. He looks fickle. What's going on??? As I said, he is no longer free. He now has what amounts to an unpardonable death sentence, and he KNOWS it. He also knows that one day in the future (still future) one of his people will rise up to great power and authority over all the earth. Most Christians call this person 'the antichrist'. Technically, the bible doesn't ever call him 'the' antichrist; the bible says there are many antichrists and this person will just be one of the many. However, the bible Does call him the "man of sin". He is also called the "son of perdition". It is said of him that he will "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God" and he will "sit in the temple of God showing himself that HE IS GOD". AHA! The antichrist is going to be a man who SAYS he's God. All those idiots and fools will believe him, in small part because of the 'lying signs and wonders' he will do, and in much larger part because of the trinity. Many of those people will figure that if God came as a man once, then He could do it again. The trinity promotes the belief that God came as a man once. The trinity is the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. The trinity is a perpetual reminder that..."Haleluia, the antichrist is coming". In the old testament (Numbers 21) serpents were biting people in Israel and many people died. God instructed Moses to make a brass serpent and lift it up on a pole, so that if any body was bitten by one of these serpents and they looked at the brass serpent on the pole, they would live and not die. Approximately 1000 years later, king Hezekiah broke in pieces the brass serpent that Moses made because some people in Israel were worshipping that brass serpent as an idol. God instructed Moses to make the brass serpent, and it saved lives, but God NEVER intended for that serpent to be worshipped as an idol. In John 3:14 Jesus is speaking. He says, "and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up". It is very significant that Jesus made a point of directly comparing Himself with that same brass serpent which Moses made. God sent Jesus to save us from our sins, and he has already save many lives for all eternity, but God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol. Once again, the trinity is both the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. It is a perpetual reminder that..."haleluia, the antichrist is coming". No Christian should want anything to do with supporting something like that. God's love is perpetual. God gave every one the same capacity to make our own choices. God will never force anyone to choose, believe, or do anything. If any still want to believe that a man is God, enjoy it while you can.
  11. I recall LCM teaching somewhere...he said that God called it robbery if people didn't tithe in the OT, therefore...it must be grand larceny if people don't at least tithe in the grace administration. I believe his logic was flawed. In the grace administration, we are absolutely NOT under law. If 5% or less is what someone can give cheerfully (as Wordwolf pointed out), then why wouldn't God honor that? I think He WOULD!
  12. quote: ????????? Tell us more! (Maybe on "My Story" so as not to distract from this (slow-moving) thread.) Slow moving? Functionally, the thread is complete. Someone requested a copy of AOS and got it. The rest is...deep thoughts by Jack Handy gravy.
  13. I said previously that my mother was placed in a foster home that worked out. That was in 1924, when she was 14. Over the next not quite 20 years, she got married and had 3 kids. Then in 1943 my dad got hired by Lear Inc. as an engineer. First they moved him to Piqua, OH. Then 2 years later they moved him to Grand Rapids, MI where I was born and raised. The foster brother I keep referring to was named Jack. In early August of 1953 Jack's mother died, so my mom's family came to St. Louis for the funeral. They were planning to stay there for one week, which became 3 weeks. Jack was at the funeral, but he was still military, so after his mom's funeral his first assignment was to fly that cargo plane, which crashed and killed him. It took about 2 weeks for them to fish his body out of the ocean and get him to St. Louis for HIS funeral. My mom, dad, and 3 children were staying with my dad's parents, who were empty nesters by then. They lived in a house the size of a small cottage. With 7 people staying there, I'm guessing privacy was pretty much non existent. One fateful day, privacy was available...but they had no prophylactics. (all this was told to me by my elder sister, who was 13 at the time) So my mom and dad just took a chance. THAT is how I got here. My parents were both 43 when I was born and my siblings were all more than 10 years older than me. From man's pov I was not planned. From God's...much stranger things have happened. That's pretty much it.
  14. I actually owe my existence to the fact that the guy's plane went down in the Atlantic.
  15. quote: Soldiers kill, a POW died, . . . but VP fell asleep. Quite a change in tone there. My mom's foster brother didn't die as a pow. I was born in 1954. His group of pows were freed by Russian soldiers in 1945. He later fought as a pilot in Korea. That didn't kill him, either. Ironically, he died when a cargo plane he was flying went down in the Atlantic. quote: "In the world" ... athletes cheat ... as opposed to a place where this does not happen? My point exactly. AOS implied that athletes are better spiritually than soldiers.
  16. When AOS was current, we were all taught that a soldier kills an opponent, but an athlete tries to outdistance an opponent, therefore, calling believers athletes is better than calling them soldiers. Well, after further review...I disagree. Killing is not the only thing a soldier does. My mother was put in foster care when she was 12. After 2 years of 3 foster homes that didn't work out, she was placed in one that did. This family had a 5 year old boy. My mother certainly helped raise him. He grew up, became a pilot, was shot down over Germany in 1944, and spent 14 months in a prison camp. I never met the guy; he died a year before I was born, but I've seen letters he wrote to my mom. He said that with the exception of a month or so in which food was in very short supply, he was not treated that badly in the prison camp. The German soldiers didn't kill him, they held him captive. Whatever he did to oppose Germany, he could not do while he was in the camp. This reminds me of 2 scriptures: the one that says Christ led captivity captive, and the one that says he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way. Just as those German soldiers held my mom's foster brother captive so that he was limited in what he could do to oppose Germany, we believers, who are the lights of the world, limit what the adversary can do to oppose, not only God's people, but the whole world. This strikes me much more like military than athletic. About athletic... In the world, athletes get a lot of praise. Not just Tom Brady praise, but even kids who plays T ball will get all kinds of love from whomever is supervising them. Also, in the world, athletes who play team sports have to compete with their own teammates for playing time. Some of those athletes are willing to do ethically questionable things to 'outdistance' their own teammates. It seems to me that even before VP fell asleep, the tone of the ministry morphed from walking in love and being kind one to another, into judging each others' flesh thinking it was walking by the spirit. AOS exacerbated this. I'm leaning toward concluding that this was the game changer. I even suspect that LCM really believed that by enforcing the strict legalistic dogma which included the debt purge, homo purge, and unproductive evil purge in 1995, that God would give the increase and the numbers would come back to the ministry just like in the 70s. Didn't happen.
  17. I met him once. He came to St. Louis. I think he was there to promote the way corps. I got to play a couple of songs during the fellowship. I was tuning my guitar in the bathroom (best acoustics) and he walked in. He was nice. Some leadership seemed to believe that musicians were 2nd class believers...ego trips waiting to happen. John Lynn was NOT like that. I was never really aware much of his post TWI ministry and any doctrinal differences, but it says a lot that so many disgruntled ex way people would rally around him. They say the cream rises to the top. John Lynn must've had some.
  18. Just for the record, Walter Cummins taught DWA, not VP. quote: "I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? " Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? Interesting how it's only "trinitarian churches" that are a risk for getting possessed, here. Other cults, no. Groups demanding blind loyalty, no. Actual occult practices, no. Actual devil/demon worship, no. No worries about practicing Satanists, but that Franciscan Order RCC that's feeding the hungry and helping people get jobs and housing are hazardous to your spiritual health! Where did I say "only"? Also...quote: Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? - That's not what I posted. All you ever do is misrepresent anything you don't like. I don't have to give you a straight answer. (Prov. 26:4 - answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him) Hey, Waysider? I guess you succeeded in luring me into an argument after all.
  19. John 8:12 - the pharisees therefore said unto him, thou bearest record of thyself, thy record is not true. In other words, hey, Jesus, that's just your opinion. Same self righteous tone as in WWs and Waysider's last posts. I recall one encounter with a person who was adamant about the trinity. I tried to point out 1 Tim 1:5, one God...one mediator between God and men...the man Christ Jesus. Not the God/man, the man. The idiot came back with...a mediator has to be fully partaker of both. Not correct. A mediator, by definition, is a third party, agreed on by the other 2 parties to resolve a dispute. For example, in major league baseball at times, a player will demand X amount of money, but the team says no, we'll give you less than X. So a mediator is hired to resolve the dispute. The mediator in this case is called an arbitrator. This arbitrator is not a player or an owner. He/she cannot be full or any percent partaker of either. If he/she was, it would be a conflict of interests. Jesus is not any percent partaker of God. He is a man, but all other humans are sinners. Jesus was tempted in all points, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). (Pssst...God cannot be tempted Jas 1:13) This is the ONLY thing which qualifies Jesus to be a mediator between God and man. Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree. You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? Again, you think you are smarter than God. 'No other Gods' is perfectly understandable. BTW God sees me as holy. No one approaches God without holiness. Check out Lev 10:1-3 if you want to see what happens to people who try to approach God without holiness. Christ accomplished holiness for us (Eph 1:4). But, of course, you still think you are smarter than God, so that can't be right.
  20. quote: May I ask what led you to this conclusion? Couple scriptures come to mind...avoid foolish and unlearned questions...don't cast pearls before swine... I think you're being disingenuous with me. You don't care what led me to this or any conclusion. You're just trying to lure me into an argument. Not going there, but I will attempt to answer your question. IMO the MOST perpetual sign of God's love to mankind is...that he gave us, by creation, the capacity to make our own choices. Nobody is really a robot. We all process life in our own ways. Our minds, again by creation, all have the capacity to formulate thoughts. 95 plus percent of our thoughts are from our own minds, but that isn't the only possibility. God can directly put thoughts in our minds, especially those of us who are born again of His spirit. So can the devil. We learned in the 'dealing with the adversary' class that the devil has 4 fronts. 4 ways of disseminating info to us. 1) society 2) religion (source of the trinity, wink, wink) 3 other people and 4) ourselves. It works like this...not every word from those 4 are directly from the devil, but some are. If an individual believes and meditates on words directly from the devil from the first 3 of those, then ultimately, that's what will enable the devil to put thoughts directly into that individual's mind. That's basically how ANYBODY can get possessed. Comprende? Didn't think so. You could get possessed anywhere. Jack the Ripper was from the royal family. You don't think he was possessed? You could be raised in Barbie's dream house and still get possessed. The most strict laws in the OT were attempting to keep devil spirits out of Israel. Worshipping other gods was number 1 concern. The trinity is another god. VP did, in advanced class 79, make the distinction between being adamant about the trinity and not being adamant, saying that those who were adamant were possessed. I met people like that. Creeeeepeeeee! Process this post any way you wish, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
  21. I don't speak for all spinoffs, but mine seems to regard pfal as an "old wineskin" There is a list of 16 points of doctrine pfal was wrong about. Richard Thomas had a guy in the area tell him he was running pfal classes. He called the guy a thief and a dinosaur. I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? I listened to Terry Riley's 'A rainbow in curved air' Yesterday. I don't FEEL possessed! (in the same spirit as David Lee Roth's "I don't FEEL tardy!" from 'Hot for teacher' BTW Back in the day, I would have felt perfectly safe doing TWO hits of acid while listening to that song. (Rainbow...not Hot)
  22. Mike quote: Good to see you still kicking, johniam! :) Are you still swinging a squeegee? I am, but far less now. I'm 72. Yeah, one day at a time. After 20 years I just quit window cleaning. My wife is wheel chair bound now. This happened maybe 4 months ago. Since then I just couldn't keep up with my work, so I quit. I collect social security benefits, so at least that's still coming in, but I quit 6 weeks ago and I still feel like I work a lot every day. I am welcome to make my services available again for window cleaning, but I'll see how this plays out. Good to see YOU still kicking.
  23. I don't ever remember any TWI leader discouraging us from reading the gospels. Yes, at times in TWI the gospels were used merely to augment the epistles, but that's better than what churches did...totally ignore the epistles. There is nothing that could happen in a 'so called' cult...that couldn't also happen in a 'so called' mainstream Christian church. Adolescents getting molested in a catholic church is as bad or worse than anything that could happen in a "cult". The argument that VPs sins negate the possibility that he was right about anything is absurd...just simply not true. Imagine the most heinous crimes possible. Murder, sexual assault, theft, etc. Imagine that I, Johniam, am guilty of those. Then imagine yourself...not guilty of any of those. Each of us (myself and yourself) say that 2 plus 2 equals 4. Am I less correct than you??? We're ALL sinners. We ALL deserve the death Jesus endured for us. That doesn't mean that any one of us cannot tell many truths. If you don't want to fellowship with someone whom you KNOW is guilty of such and such, then you don't have to. I got into the word in 1976. If I had found out in, say, 1980 that VP was doing what he did with women, then I may have had a real problem with continuing beyond the people I knew in twig. I really can't say conclusively how I would have responded. Yet, much of PFAL still rings true. The doctrine has nothing directly to do with VPs lifestyle (part of it). I repeat, there's a difference between blindly following man made traditions and focusing on "what does the word really say". I believe that was VPs #1 agenda.
  24. Well, if I'm going to comment, I need to sit through it. This video is nothing more than a guy thinking evil and going on a 12 minute rant about it. There's more. You can tell by listening to his vocal flow, that he's obsessed. He's run those thoughts through his mind rapid fire for decades. Martindale wasn't that bad when he talked about Jews and homos. Even VPs teaching 'the way of life and death' wasn't that out of control. The guy's a whack job. Victor Paul Wierwille's Power for abundant living class did indeed do one thing very well.....it drew a line in the sand which clearly separated mainstream Christianity, which is STILL based on man made traditions not found in scripture...from biblical research, which is based on the firm belief that the words in the bible as originally given by God, are truth, God breathed, whatever you want to call it. I've attended a few churches since leaving TWI. Those people are mostly Christians, not glassy eyed robots. They know a lot of the same stuff we do. But they still believe Jesus is God, that dead people aren't really dead, they don't understand incorruptible seed ( they think they can be saved one moment and unsaved the next), some of them think they might go to hell for playing outside on Sunday. THAT should be regarded as brainwashing! People don't join cults because they're "brainwashed"...they join because they want more substance than they're ever going to get from their church. Not everybody feels that way, but, obviously, enough people do so there will always be small religions that spring up which bigotted mainstream ministers will be likely to label as "cults". Take your best shot. PS Rev. Richard Thomas has fallen asleep. He had cancer for 2 years. He was 71.
  25. That tape was probably VPs last ever teaching at the auditorium. It would have been dated April 21, 1985. I saw the video of it. He looked disorientated at times and he used verses of both Paul and Peter alluding to their imminent deaths. He knew he didn't have much time left. But I'm sure, to a lot of people, it would "prove" you were in a "cult".
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