johniam

quote: Please produce specific examples of how and where The Way Int. had a major impact on the course of world history. I did. You just don't get it. You still refuse to admit that you no longer believe in God or the devil.

quote: Please produce specific examples of how and where The Way Int. had a major impact on the course of world history. I did. You just don't get it. You still refuse to admit that you no longer believe in God or the devil.

quote: I wouldn't be surprised if someone comments on how The Way helped them wean themself from the drug culture. I've posted that before. And it's true. But my first twig did drugs. Less than 1 minute after the last amen somebody was rolling joints on a monopoly board. But the other way people in our town were not down with that. Every time I used drugs while in twi I had to hide it from leadership.

quote: The Way had virtually no impact on the overall course of the world. Prove it!

As I observe just how crazy this world has become and is becoming, I conclude that if not for twi, this world would have become that crazy during the 70s. Remember Jesus said if ye have faith as a mustard seed....a mustard seed is the least of all seeds but when it is planted it grows greater than all herbs. TWI was like that. We didn't have the numbers or the educational degrees, but we had the impact. The people in the 70s and 80s who felt that twi threatened their way of life were more venomous toward us than the people who didn't like hippies. WAY more venomous. This world is just plain crazy now. And what a coincidence that everything being emphasized in the world is EXACTLY what twi stood against.

The word 'cult' used to label twi was a bigoted slur, fitting definitions 6 and 7 of the link Rocky posted. I once read a newspaper article calling some presumably educated person a "cult expert". Isn't that nice? I'm sure KKK members consider themselves to be "N word experts". Nazis are "Jew experts". What a joke! I agree that calling women who breast feed a cult is lame.

quote: 1979-Reverend Whatever takes twi seriously and talks about them all week. That's in his job description-to warn his congregation about alleged exploitative religious groups in the area. Yeah, but all week long? Really? Like nobody "warned" anyone about twi before that? Wonder how many people sat through rev whatevrrrrrrrr's class.

quote: Twi spends money. It helps the local economy. Business leaders have a way of overlooking the imperfections of any institution that provides any degree of economic stimulus. This took awhile. 1979 - During the ride to the ROA we passed a church in New Knoxville. On the marquis it said, "Rev Whatever 'unveils the way'". Not only that but it was going on all week. This rev whatevrrrr wanted his flock to come to church all week long and hear him slander us. They'd rather go on picnics or something. That darned urgency of the times. 1982 - During Living Victoriously Howard Allen was awakened at 3AM by NKs finest. They wanted him to start his car. It seems some townies got their butts kicked by some of us wayfers. Provoked, of course. Townies called the cops and gave them HAs license plate. HA said he hadn't started his car in 2 days. It didn't immediately turn over so the cops apologized and left. I guess those townies weren't business leaders. 1983 - One service not available at the ROA was laundry. We went into St. Marys and one laundromat had a sign in its window which said...ROA people welcome. Finally!

I was high on acid when I heard these, but, the preacher on Firesign theatre's 'Don't crush the dwarf; hand me the pliers' had charisma. Especially the part when the guy listening on the radio said, "too much" and IMMEDIATELY the preacher said 'Is it too much, friends?" VP reminded me of that guy. It was awesome.

Newcomer's class? We used to call those public exes. If that's her, she is blonde. I usually remember stuff like that from where I was at the time. I moved from MI to MO in early 2000. Don't remember anything about her actually going to a meeting, but it could be as you say. I remember thinking OK they're on to us. Back in the 70s and early 80s, when I first was in twi, we seemed to get a lot of class signups on the spot. A witnesser would tell them, "Oh, this class will totally change your life, c'mon, whaddaya say...?" But after that people needed to come to a fellowship and start hanging out with us first. Makes more sense.

Back in the 90s I was watching the comedy channel one night and this girl was on stage and she said, "Somebody I work with told me she took a class that really changed her life and would I be interested. I said Sure, I'll join your cult." Definitely got some laughs.

quote: NEW KNOXVILLE — This year marks the 73rd anniversary of The Way International biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry. A celebration was held on Sunday, Oct. 4, at The Way International Headquarters, located in New Knoxville. Guests joined the Rev. Rosalie F. Rivenbark, chairman of the board and president of The Way International, and other members of the Board of Directors, senior officers, trustee household, staff, and in-residence Way Corps for the teaching service in the Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium. Over 1,500 celebrators gathered from 202 cities in the United States, Canada, Chile and Ecuador. Others listened in via teleconference from meeting locations around the world, including 26 international countries representing six continents, from as far away as Japan and New Zealand. The theme for the new ministry year, “Living God’s Love,” was noted, illustrated and emphasized throughout the celebration. A teaching keying from the new ministry theme was presented by the Rev. Jean-Yves De Lisle. Way Disciple Outreach Group XXII was highlighted in the service. The Way Disciple program is a ministry outreach program designed to enhance a biblically disciplined lifestyle in its participants, who in turn share the quality of life and truth they learn with others. The Way Disciples of Outreach Group XXII were commissioned from The Way International Headquarters to locations in the United States and Canada. Another team of Way Disciples was commissioned in New Zealand, where an anniversary celebration was also held. At the close of the teaching service, those in attendance were invited to an anniversary reception for fellowship and refreshments. Congratulations by family and friends were extended to the Way Disciples of Outreach Group XXII. The irony of this is hilarious. All those years twi was a fledgling "cult". Couldn't get anyone to take them seriously. Now they get all this respect. Terry Bradshaw's pick of the week. We at GSC have no use for them, but their community isn't scared of them anymore. No longer the big bad cult. lol ×

Hindsight is 20/20, eh?

quote: Is there any current evidence that VPW had any charisma? Yeah. Us!

quote: Apparently you're suffering from selective memory. I'm not suffering. You want to see selective memory? Look in the mirror.

quote: But listen, johniam......I understand how truly upsetting this might be for someone who has wrapped their whole life, theology and being into believing that twi was/is "THE true household of God"......of which, anyone who has left the fold, is NOT. Maybe that's why you struggle....attempting to prove, to yourself, that you've NEVER LEFT TWI. In your mind, you are a "true believer." But according to twi.....a "true believer" never leaves. You claim....you are right. Twi claims...they are right. Your struggle is not with greasespotters. Your constant struggle is with twi. Are you with them.....or against them? That is the question. This is a misrepresentation. You know this. True household of God? Israel was the true household of God at times in the OT. When they were, they had the Red sea parted, manna from heaven, hornets assist them in battles, Jericho deleted, etc. When they weren't they went into captivity. I don't remember VP calling twi the "true household of God". Part of the body of Christ? Yes! Eligible for God to bare his mighty arm for us? Yes! He never said we were the only Christians. Twi became the "denomination" they ridiculed. More and more rules God doesn't require. And what a 'coincidence' that the purges of 1994 left them with only people who made money. Maybe not rich, but consistent. They became too spiritually cool to bother with taking care of people who were in desperate need anymore. They practically admit this. Not an open door ministry anymore. Personally, I'd rather laugh with the "sinners" than cry with those "saints" any day. I believe God was involved in twi. Still can be. The question for me is that: is God involved? Can he be? Not which man made group to point the finger at. We're all vanity, remember?

quote: "Let me get this straight. If I attend any church ONE TIME, then they own my soul for eternity?" What? Who said that? Who? How about any church whose main motivation is the love of money. Notice how quickly twi dropped off the cult radar AFTER VP died and twi subsequently lost all their people...their MONEY??? Nobody considers them a "dangerous cult" anymore except here.

quote: "Why didn't E&R church get rid of him sooner if what he was doing was so unethical?" Who really knows? Just because they didn't get rid of him doesn't prove or disprove anything. It sure begs a question or two. The first post makes it sound like VP spent the whole time joyriding on their dime and they didn't have a clue. How did he do that? Lots of unfilled in blanks here.

quote: And further......wierwille ADMITS that, oftentimes, he would take church congregants to these conferences, classes, retreats, and events. Let me get this straight. If I attend any church ONE TIME, then they own my soul for eternity? Why didn't E&R church get rid of him sooner if what he was doing was so unethical? People who join cults aren't "brainwashed". Their previous churches weren't cutting it. VPs sure wasn't.

Yeah, the love of God in the fellowship is noticeable. And after awhile the absence of it is even more noticeable. VP had nothing directly to do with that. I had brief encounters with him maybe 3 times total. I didn't see any of the meanness described here, however I'm not saying it didn't happen. Literal rock stars fill a void in world culture. In my first post, I compared Irish writers and twi people with one characteristic of rock stars. That would be the enablement to disrespect things held dear in world culture. AC/DC's Highway to hell and Jethro Tull's Wind up are similar in poking fun at religion. I know Angus and Malcomb Young of AC/DC were raised catholic and I'm not sure about Tull's Ian Anderson, but in a fairly recent interview, he described himself as a cross between a deist (who believe in a creator God, but don't believe He has direct dealings with humans) and a pantheist (one who believes nature is God). But both those songs and many others really connected with their listeners. The music in twi really helped me transfer from being world minded to God minded. Especially in my attitude about myself. During my wow year we were always listening to Joyful Noise, Pressed down, Good seed, Glad tidings, the Jordan river ramblers, anybody they had, and it seemed to resist the world's message and buffer the word's. It was just what I needed at the time. As for the hippies. When I got into the dope culture in 1970, the people did seem more loving, cool, and positive than anybody else, but by 1975, the year before I got into twi, the drug culture seemed to evolve into just another way to conform. I can't help but believe that the Doops and Heefners people like that found twi favorable compared to the worldly hippies of the late 60s. Hey, Steve, one thing you said I totally agree with is that the trustees were primarily responsible for losing the unity we had, NOT the leaves on the tree. They were behind the wheel, so to speak.

Yeah, I was referring to myself.

Loon.

In the grace administration, we have incorruptible seed the OT believers never had. David prayed that God wouldn't take holy spirit from him. (Ps51:11) In Acts 15 Peter called the OT law a yoke neither we nor our fathers were able to bear. (v.10) There was no guaranteed eternal life in the OT. Yes, I agree twi lost its community and VPs actions had something to do with it, but that doesn't mean VP wasn't born again. Doesn't mean pfal wasn't teaching the word of God.

I thought VP made his case very well. There are scriptures that blatantly contradict each other if they're addressed to the same people under the same rules. By denying this, you "absolve" yourself of having to rightly divide the word. Or even believe there IS a word of God. VP thought all that through. He was right about that one.

So you don't want to be in the body of Christ anymore because you'd have to share space with VP...and millions of others? You'll get over it.