johniam

In order to have an exodus, don't you have to have enough people to constitute an exodus?

Of course I've heard of it. Even David Craley in his book 'In search of the light;the hope of glory' said he kind of got witnessed to that way. Eew. Even the 5th WC principle, make your physical body as dynamic as possible, whatever, could be inferred as that, couldn't it? But it is certainly relevant that everybody believes that sex sells. I was a fast food asst mgr for 6 years and we most definitely put the hottest girls on front counter during busy periods. Yeah, we were sexist pigs. So what? Bottom line is, people actually got delivered, but now decades later somebody who changed their mind and thinks it was all bogus says "hair raising stories" etc. Deliverance is in the eye of the beholder, eh?

Not once in the 18 years I was in twi did I ever hear any leader promote this "whoring for Jesus" strategy. And of course, NOBODY other than twi believes that sex sells, right?

I think you have to have HAIR in order to have a hairstyle.

quote: They order the boring dresses out of mother-of-the-bride catalogs. I know. I saw them when I worked wardrobe. They were the same catalogs mailed to me because I had been planning my own wedding. I asked why the dresses were so unattractive and was told that it was so the ladies didn't "distract" from the word. This makes me think of a few things. Last Saturday I watched SNL, which was a rerun since it's summer, and the musical guest was Charli XCX, a girl group. The lead singer looked very sexy. If she had been singing 'I've been born again' or 'It's gotta be God' nobody would've remembered that. Even Sarah Palin wrestled with this. If you want to communicate a serious message, political, religious, or whatever, I guess you can't look too sexy. Javajane, it sounds like somebody should've put much more thought into the wardrobe. Perhaps the outfits could've been more attractive without being too distracting. Claudettee, Stevie Kay, and Vicki Allen always looked pretty, yet discreet.

quote: Those who've touted the "greatness of pfal" have never connected all the dots....to understand why twi has miserably failed. How many years have these followers sat in home fellowships and heard those "inspirational manifestations?" Thousands of times, for many. Yet, what about the other six manifestations? You know....earthquakes shaking the prison doors open, the blind man from birth able to see, angels in our midst, etc. Why has twi become so dead? Hint: [pfal] why was the dead sea so dead? So who IS doing the other 6 manifestations? The catholic church? Fifty percent of them voted for a president who compels them to blaspheme (pay for abortions and other birth control). You got all this criticism, but no solutions. You say you never believed in the snow on the gas pumps, but you, like everybody else, didn't come forward with this "enlightenment" until after VP was dead. But hindsight is 20/200, right?

No, it doesn't matter nor is it any of my business what my neighbors believe. I've lived here for 15 years. So has my one next door neighbor. We've talked to him about spiritual things. We even told him we were in a "cult". Not a problem, with him or us. The other next door neighbor has lived here only 2 years. Nice folks, but we've not yet talked to them about God or anything. Do I still feel uncomfortably different than others? Yes. I mean...the devil is God's creation isn't he? We are not of this world. I felt more uncomfortably different than others before I got into twi than since. At least now I have friends who are also different. One thing that keeps coming back to me is...that people have lives, want to have lives. Most people I know who are still into twi type fellowships want to also have lives...college, jobs, careers, bowling leagues, whatever! Back in the day in twi we had to put that stuff on hold to move the word the urgency of the times. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Spiritually, we definitely made a huge dent. Some here just don't believe that, but we all knew what was going on. Nobody stuck a gun to our heads to make us do that. We believed in what we were doing and we participated, each person according to their desire and ability. But it's nice to be able to have a life in the world, though being not of this world.

quote: Does it BOTHER you that your neighbor beilieves in a Trinity? I don't know what my neighbors believe. It sure seemed to bother a lot of people that us wayfers did NOT believe in a trinity. Never met anybody more glassy eyed than those people who hated on us back then.

He's a common tater! (Walter Cummins pfal77)

Seriously, that sign is current? Somebody actually opened for business and put that sign in their window? Even the laundromat in St. Marys let us use their facilities during ROAs. Adolphs too. Someone once told me, in a different context, that in Louisiana if you go south of interstate 10 it's like going back in time to the 40s or 50s. Did this happen there? Bizarre.

Wonder how well that logic would work if they didn't serve gays ...closely held belief...gays are...whatever.

Faith is a funny thing. I can't prove that what I believe is true, but nobody else can prove that it isn't. Oakspear once pointed out that most peoples' faith started with a feeling. Mine did, originally. I was in 4th grade. My mom took me to Fountain street church, a liberal church. She would drop me off in this room where they showed cartoons like Goofy, Bugs Bunny, Popeye, etc. Then she would join the adults and after the last cartoon us kids had to go to our Sunday school class. One Sunday I waited a few minutes after the last cartoon for whatever reason and I was alone in the room. Then a movie about Jesus came on. Lasted an hour or so. That was the beginning. This feeling came over me that I would eventually become familiar with. It felt like the presence of God. It felt good. After the movie I went to my Sunday school class. They asked me where were you. I was still pretty buzzed from that feeling. I told them I'd seen a movie about JESUS!!! They smirked at me. The next time that feeling came was during 10th grade. Two friends, both of whom are atheists, said they were going to a prayer meeting at a Presbyterian church. I went. That feeling was powerful this time. Then in the summer of 1975 I was a college student and I had a job as a state park ranger assistant. I was away from all my friends and 2 coworkers asked me to go to their respective churches. One was weird. This guy kept saying PRAISE Jesus while the minister was giving his sermon. That feeling wasn't there. The other one was better. The feeling came back while he was preaching. He got with me after the sermon and told me he'd read the bible cover to cover 22 times and the more he read it, the more he believed it. I went there one or two more times. One of those times I smoked a joint before going. They didn't act like they knew but they probably did. The pot didn't delete the feeling. I went to my first twig in Oct. of 1976. That feeling has never gone away. Even during times of no fellowship. It doesn't feel as new and exciting as it did at first, but it's still there and it still feels good.

In Tom Petty's song Freefalling he says I'm gonna leave this world for awhile. Twi gave us all a chance to leave our worlds for awhile. Not necessarily such a bad thing.

What drew me there was the love of God in the believers. Not just my first fellowship, but for years afterward. Sure, the leadership wanted you to agree with them, but they did NOT just kick people out if you didn't unquestioningly agree. Well, that dramatically changed in 1994. First they kicked you out of stuff if you didn't get out of debt. Then they kicked you out if, by way of "reasonable spiritual suspicion", they thought you were gay, then they kicked people out if they were guilty of "unproductive evil". Anybody who was left after that was either lucky or totally intimidated. If you sell out to anything it has to be your idea. You can't be coerced into godly service. 1 Cor. 16:15 says those people had addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints. Nobody made them get committed. When I was a child the other kids in my neighborhood would sometimes try to get me to believe in their God. But all they seemed to know was that you'd go to hell if you didn't do what their minister said. I bailed as soon as twi told me I was welcome but my wife wasn't. Although I second guessed my decision at times, it was definitely the right decision. In 1996 I talked briefly to someone who stayed with twi, convinced that LCM didn't invent the standards of seeing devil spirits everywhere. We didn't talk long. Staying in twi cost him his marriage. He left years ago and has remarried. I sense he's still hurt. I can't imagine what it's like to follow a religion only to escape hell, or wrath, or whatever.

quote: Why would God get you into something and then get you out of it? He wouldn't. We do that stuff ourselves. It says in the so called parable of the sower that the wicked one catches away that which was sown in the heart of someone who doesn't understand the word of the Kingdom. If the adversary can do that, couldn't God do something to help someone who hears and understands? He could do that for anyone regardless of where they heard the word.

I'm just saying that the word 'cult' is a political social label, not a factual label.

A cult is a religion whose founder is still alive. A cult is where money which should go into mainstream Christian collection plates doesn't. The word cult is a bigoted slur used by some people to attack other people. Back in the day I wasn't afraid to read what was said about twi in books like Mindbenders, Youth, brainwashing and the extremist cults, etc. They all made a point of saying that the number one reason we were a cult is because we believed Jesus isn't God. Jews and Muslims also don't believe that Jesus is God. But these self appointed cult experts wouldn't DARE admit that they believe Jews and Muslims are in cults. They would immediately be compared to Hitler. But we KNOW that's what they think. All the mind control and brainwashing BS could be said of many things: military, college, mainstream religion, feminism, anything with a belief system associated with it. The adversary is patient. I knew back in the 70s that attacking small religions was only going to lead to attacking ALL religions, especially Christianity. That's what's happening now.

quote: The whole purpose of that booklet is to convince the readers they must give their hard earned money to The Way in order to receive the blessings of God. I've still got VPs books somewhere, but I'm not going to do an archaeological dig to find them. Somewhere in CSBP VP says that tithing without recognition of God's goodness is sheer folly. How does that convince me to give to twi?

quote: Narcissists are everywhere, and they can be incredibly draining and challenging to deal with. Here are 7 things you need to know about narcissists, written from my perspective as a social psychologist and also inspired by my personal experiences with narcissists in my daily life. 1. A Significant Portion of the US Population are Narcissists An estimated 6.2% of the US population suffers from narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), meaning they meet five or more of the following criteria according to the DSM-V: (as you read these, think about people you may know who might fit with the diagnosis) -Has a grandiose sense of self-importance, exaggerating their abilities and achievements -Has persistent fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love -Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and should only associate with people of the same status -Has a constant need for attention, affirmation and praise -Has a strong sense of entitlement and an expectation of special treatment -Is exploitative of others, taking advantage of them for personal gain -Lacks empathy for others -Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of them -Regularly shows arrogant or haughty behaviors and attitudes (This could be ANYBODY/EVERYBODY.) Many more people do not meet all of the criteria for NPD, but may still exhibit narcissistic personality traits from time to time. For this reason it is difficult to know for sure how many narcissists might be out there! 2. Psychologists are Unsure About the Causes of Narcissism Is narcissism an inherited genetic trait? Or is it something conditioned by parents and teachers during childhood? Is it associated with other mental illnesses? While the causes of narcissism are unknown, psychologists tend to favor a biopsychosocial model of causation that integrates biology and genetics with social environment and psychological adjustment. In other words, environment and society does play an important role in the development of narcissistic personality traits. 3. Narcissism is on the Rise, According to New Research (the cults are on the rampage, they're after you and me) Recent research in psychology shows that narcissism has been on the rise during the last 30 years, especially among young people. One study even showed that 9.4% of 20- to 29-year-olds exhibit extreme narcissism, compared with only 3.2% of those older than 65. Perhaps this is not a surprise in light of how our culture has shifted to emphasize social media as central to our identities, sense of self and self-esteem. Indeed, there is a direct positive correlation between social media usage and narcissism, meaning that the more narcissistic you are, the heavier your social media usage. Even the word ‘selfie’ and what it stands for has a rather narcissistic implication, don’t you think? Sadly, as narcissism has risen with the advent of Facebook, Twitter, and MySpace, too has there been a steep decline in altruism and empathy. 4. Narcissists Can Easily Slip By Undetected Unlike people with other personality disorders or behavioral problems, narcissists can easily slip by undetected because they don’t appear to be ‘sick’ or ‘mentally ill’- They just seem to have an over-inflated sense of self-importance, a relentless need for attention and a lack of empathy. When you first meet them or get to know them, they might seem fun, energetic, outgoing and just a little egotistical, but this may or may not raise red flags. After all, it’s good to have high self-esteem right? Often they can lure you into their inflated self-importance and grandiose schemes and before you realize it, you’ve become involved with someone whose presence may be toxic to your well-being. (this is actually called "mental illness") lol 5. Narcissism is Difficult to Treat: (yeah, I guess it would be if EVERYBODY is one. Plagues are hard to treat, too) Perhaps one of the most troubling things about narcissistic personality disorder is that it can be very difficult to treat with therapy because the clients are often in denial or completely unwilling to accept that they have a disorder. If someone truly believes that he or she is special, more talented and superior, imagine how challenging it might be for a therapist to convince him or her otherwise. It is for this reason that people with narcissistic personality disorder rarely seek treatment, and usually only agree to therapy at the urging or friends or family members, or to treat other issues (such as anxiety or depression) that result from the disorder. And sadly many therapists also have to release their narcissistic patients when they reach an impasse and the patient believes they are fine and refuses to see the problem. 6. There are Ways to Tell if Someone is a Narcissist If you suspect that someone in your life might be a narcissist, there are things that you can do in addition to comparing their behaviors to the diagnostic criteria listed above. I recommend the following: •Ask Them Questions (Narcissists Like to Talk but not to Listen) I learned from my partner intuitive sound healer Jimmy Ohm that the single best way to a spot narcissist is to ASK THEM QUESTIONS! Due to their inflated ego, they can’t help but share with you their exaggerated sense of achievement and accomplishments, their beliefs of how special and wonderful they are, and how everyone is so jealous of them. Even more so, narcissists like to talk, but they are usually not very good listeners. Often they glaze over when others are talking, only waiting for their turn to speak. •Examine Their Social Media Presence (nice thing about GSC is, you can't interrupt a post; all you can do is 'wait for your turn' and then do 1,000 word posts every time, but there's nobody here who does that, right?) Given the positive correlation between social media use and narcissism, if you suspect someone might be a narcissist, one of the easiest things you can do is examine their social media presence. Are they always posting status updates and commenting on everything? Do they frequently talk about themselves, their plans and their achievements online? While heavy social media use alone is not a definite indicator of narcissism, it, if this person is always on social media and also meets some of the narcissism criteria then they might be one of them. •Do They Involve You in Grandiose Schemes? Narcissists have this way of convincing us that they know better and that they are the most capable person for any task. If someone repeatedly involves you grandiose schemes that never pan out, or is always talking about plans but ever actually following through, he or she could well be a narcissist. •Are They Manipulative? Narcissists are skilled at the art of manipulation and getting what they want out of people. I think this ties back their lack of empathy and belief in their specialness and superiority. Often, this manipulation feels like ‘mind games’ where someone tells you what you want to hear but then does the opposite, or when someone leads you on to believe something about them or a situation that turns out to be false. 7. The Best Way to Deal with Narcissists is to Love them From Afar (for God so loved the world that he stayed the hell away, damn narcissists, who needs 'em?) Often, the people close to us like friends, bosses, work clients or even family members can be narcissists, and it can be challenging to coexist in this space with them. If you identify someone in your life as a narcissist, the single best thing you can do is to love them from afar. Loving them from afar does not mean that you completely shut them out of your life (although this is an effective strategy for some, especially those in extreme situations), but rather, that you withdraw some of your energy and instead of actively engaging, you hold space for them in hopes that someday, they will change. To me, loving them from afar means that you recognize you are powerless to change this person, and that spending time with them can be toxic to your well-being. Limiting your interactions and time spent, not playing into their grandiose schemes and not allowing yourself to be manipulated are all perfectly acceptable strategies. In the case of people you see regularly, like work colleagues, bosses, clients and close family, sometimes loving them from afar is a less viable option because you find yourself in constant contact with them. In this case, I recommend the following steps for co-existing: •Practice Forgiveness and Compassion It can be incredibly difficult to find compassion for someone who has no respect for other people and believes themselves to be superior to others. Even if they lack it, you can always find compassion because this person is clearly suffering terribly, whether he or she is consciously connected to the pain. Forgiving someone’s narcissism does not mean your are accepting or justifying their behavior, it just means that you no longer want to hold onto it or allow it to affect you. Remember, the way they act says nothing about you and everything about who they are. Do your best to forgive and not take their narcissism personally! •Let go of the Attachment to the Outcome Being a compassionate, nurturing person, I often see people suffering and I want to help them heal. I know I am not alone here. Unfortunately, when it comes to narcissists, we must learn to let go of the outcome. Narcissists usually do not think that they are in need of any help, believing instead in their own inflated perfection and superiority. Their behaviors, actions, words, and thoughts have nothing to do with you and therefore, being attached to the outcome or trying to change them in any way does not serve you and will only lead to more pain for you. •Accept that You Gave this Energy Permission to Enter Your Space, and Learn from it This is a difficult one, but it is true that our outside reality is a reflection of our inner space. So if you find yourself surrounded by narcissists, it is important to explore why you are in this situation and learn how to grow from it. Maybe you have underlying narcissistic traits that you are not aware of? Maybe you lack self-esteem and believe you are only worthy of narcissists in your life? Maybe you have been unwise in your decisions and the people you chose to make energetic agreements with? Maybe you didn’t realize how narcissistic these people were until it was too late? While their narcissism is definitely not your fault, allowing their energy into your space is your responsibility. By learning what brought you here and making changes, you can break out of this cycle. •You Deserve Better (allowing their energy into your space??? There's no such thing as spirits, right?) Remember, if you are not a narcissist, then you deserve better than to be surrounded by narcissists! It is OK to assert this feeling and cut energetic ties to people who do not match your frequency. In many cases, this is a necessary form of survival. Many of us have been in positions of low self-esteem or believed that we did not deserve truly loving, caring people in our lives. If you have done this, give yourself permission to remove this agreement on the grounds that you DO deserve to be around compassionate, connected, loving, good people. Trust that you will meet them when you clear the space for them to move into your life. I want to qualify something. Sure, some people are committed narcissists, while most people are sitting on the fence, not moving ahead with the greatness of narcissism. But this person is on a witch hunt for narcissists the same way Joseph McCarthy was on a witch hunt for communists. I'm supposed to ask people questions only to detect if they are narcissists? What questions? Hey, buddy! Have you had any fantasies today about ideal love? McCarthy's witch hunt. It didn't exactly stop communism, did it?

I heard Dr. Carolyn Rawlins got special treatment because of ABS. God may not be a respecter of persons, but people sure are. I'm sure other religions do the same thing.

quote: Thank you for your reply. If you can articulate further, I'd like to hear what people you believe comprise TWI. How does your mind distinguish between "wayfer" and "non-wayfer" or "former wayfer", for lack of better terms, if you will? What people ARE TWI? There is, surprisingly, a lot of diversity among former wayfers. That is, surprisingly for a so called "cult". I really don't know much about current twi. Don't mix much with them. I can't help but believe that the people who comprised twi when VP was alive dramatically shifted by the time LCM did the purges (1994). The people who comprised twi when VP was alive were a) people who were already Christians who needed a break from religion, and b) people who wanted specific questions answered who liked what they heard (JCING, ADAN, RTHST). What a long interesting trip it was! I'm sure current twi has those same elements, but the do what I say or else stuff? I have no use for it.

quote: Johniam, If you're able to grasp the gist here, how do YOU define what TWI is? Is it people? Is it a corporation? Is it an idea? Is TWI the Ministry which the Word which is the Household of followers? Something else? What do YOU think? It's always people. People make things happen. People also have differing views. People make corporations. People have ideas. People set goals. People define things. People are fickle. In fact, Jim Morrison was right; people are strange. What I see in a lot of threads and posts is no acknowledgement of God. Only man's judgment like it's all there is. God will sort everything out. I sometimes feel like, directly or indirectly, I have to constantly remind people of that. I recall that those of us who were committed to twi had a strong sense of pride about it. Sure, we had to go to fellowships regularly to keep that going, but it was there. Even today, I have the same sense of pride about being in the body of Christ. This world just seems to get crazier and crazier. Some people here go as far out of their way as they can to keep saying that twi was insignificant, irrelevant, had no impact, etc. Then, out of the other side of their mouths, they keep harping on how evil and dangerous they think VP was. Can't have it both ways. I think twi had plenty of impact, spiritually and culturally. Look how the world attacks everything twi stood for. The way they are using the gay marriage issue to demonize all Christianity. If the only media you ever listen to is from the world, you're going to distance yourself from Christianity as much as you can. The world is always people too. They have their own standards. Their own ideas. Their own goals, just like twi. God wouldn't say to be not conformed to this world if it wasn't possible. You think that's all that's relevant? Twi emphasized some things not others. Nobody can emphasize everything that's virtuous. Wouldn't be bite sized enough to assimilate. They got OUR attention, didn't they? See, if all you do is complain, you tend to only see negatives. Not just about twi.

quote: I did horrible things while I was in, but I never wanted to be WC, because their level of commitment necessitated too much sacrifice of self. Not self sacrifice - I'm good with that - but destroying who I was as a person in order to be successful. I saw the things WC did - the marking and avoiding of entire families, the subservience, the boring clothes and hair and Stepford wives. I couldn't become THAT. And therefore I couldn't become upper level leadership. This sounds like the 90s. That was when I checked out after 18 years. TWI wasn't at all like that before, not at root locations or out on the field. I don't even think it's that extreme now. It may have been heading that way since '89 or so, but that had to be their low point. If they had tried to keep that going up to the present day, they'd have nobody. We're all going to be at the gathering together. God promises to wipe away all tears from our eyes. He couldn't promise that if we still had to deal with all that drama after the return. God will sort it out. Meanwhile, yeah, let's complain about everything.

Happy 98th.