johniam

The first time I heard that verse was in pfal. It was presented as the foundational verse for a 34 hour class. It sounded positive. I was interested. Back in elementary school I was taught that some words are compound words. Bookkeeper. Helpmeet. Even the obscene word m#####f##### is a compound word. Let's go further. Some thoughts are compound thoughts, eh? John 10:10 is a compound thought. Thief/I (Jesus). Steal kill and destroy/have life and have it more abundantly. This is not the only verse which compares what God wants and what the devil wants, is it? I can think of one... Eph.4:31,32 - Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamour and evil speaking be put away from you with all malice... and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted (another compound word), forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Clearly, the devil wants bitterness etc. for us, and God wants kindness etc. for us. quote:... So, John 10:10 - what sticks out for me is a whole lot of $#!TTY memories from the tine I was in TWI. The verse has lost all positive meaning for me. Hey Jane, if God's so big that He can't be contained in a book, then how come He's so small that He can't heal your heart?

quote: Sounds like a typical in-rez Corps Coord trick. Get y'all together and then say you're not good enough and you will all be thrown out. Look sad or hurt by the pitiful bunch of [slaves] in front of you. Get them all ansty. Then "forgive" them and let them back, if they work harder/are more committed/drink more KoolAid. I heard that the 6th way corps once had this happen. Several of them were threatened and some were actually kicked out, then the ones who weren't kicked out were told they could come back. It seems to me there was a constant struggle in which, the top leaders wanted the standards and expectations of the way corps to be true out on the field as much as possible. But it never worked. Every so often a limb coordinator would give a serious as death teaching, or make you go to a limb meeting on New Years day or superbowl Sunday just to see who was really committed, but it didn't really change the morale or atmosphere on the field. At least, not where I ever was. Over time, especially after the so called fog years, the top leaders figured out that if they were EVER going to achieve the result of meshing WC standards with life on the field, they would have to thin the herd severely. Enter the loyalty letter, the debt purge, the homo purge, the unproductive evil purge, (seems comical now), and, voila, life on the field was WORSE than the WC was when VP was alive. They had to go to twig three plus times per week, they had to account on paper for every 15 minute segment of their day, stuff like that. Reminds me of that bit in the book of Revelation where somebody is begging for death and it won't come; something like that. But it STILL didn't work. All those people who bought that and tried to be obedient, thinking that eventually those of us who rejected it wound be on our knees in sackcloth and ashes begging for forgiveness, they themselves left twi and felt really stupid, especially when they would run into people like us. We were right after all, despite all the emphasis on loyalty to the ministry that taught you the word. As for butt chewings? They are a natural biproduct of a strategy like that. (trying to force people on the field to act like people in leadership training)

quote: These "Butt chewings" were everyday, almost constant, in some form or another, at varying degrees (these weren't in the form of loud words alone). This is something I never had to put up with. Every so often, yes, but all the time? Man. I'm going to go ahead and name this guy because I wonder if anyone else got in his crosshairs. He was the WOW czar for awhile. I already kind of had an attitude about him because of a videotaped teaching he did. He said that one thing that has hurt the wow program was war stories. "Why do you talk about having to eat macaroni and cheese on the wow field? WHY DIDN'T YOU EAT STEAK??? WHERE WAS YOUR BELIEVING???" I saw that and I thought, 'damn, glad I'm not a wow'. Later that same year LCM was trying to pitch the wow program and said, "Hey, do you need some more war stories? Why not go wow?" But after I saw the videotape of this guy (Bob Matheson) there was a twig coordinator's weekend somewhere in Lake of the Ozarks and Bob was the special guest. During one meeting some of us (7-10 people) were sitting around a table and I made a comment about something and he points right at me and says, "There you go again! Talking about the word but not on the same page as me!" Again??? I had never met the guy before. Can't remember what I said or what I wasn't on the same page about, whatever that meant. I don't have a positive opinion of him. But I'm sure twi didn't make just anybody the wow czar. Anybody here ever have a run in with this guy?

What if I'm a peninsula?

I'm going to be a senior in a few years, I guess. I'm going to deal with me. I don't expect help from anybody and I don't plan to ever retire. BTW Ermal died in 1981.

quote: As to investing, neither one of them had a clue about prudent investing. Then how does twi have more than 50 million dollars? Is this all RFR, or did they just sell a lot of bumper stickers lately?

It was called 'sharing' because we were supposed to give of our abundance, not of our livelihood. Nobody in twi said give till it hurts. Even VP made fun of that phrasing. I have some other thoughts on ABS. In 'lifestyle of a believer' VP had scathing words about gambling, citing it as the opposite of giving. This led some people to call investing in the stock market 'gambling'. Not true. Part of VPs criticism of gambling was that "there is no increase of wealth". What is increase of wealth? Best example is agriculture. One kernel of corn can yield 3 whole ears. THAT is increase. You plant, you reap. This can be done with money also. Any company listed in the NY stock exchange has established a track record of increase of wealth. It's not like a slot machine, where you put money in and IMMEDIATELY expect an increase. LCM once said that he thought some people ABSed with a gambler's mentality. Perhaps he was right on that one. As I said earlier, and some have concurred, there is no biblical or spiritual pressure to give till it hurts. We're supposed to give cheerfully. Even LCM said whatever you do, don't give out of guilt. Whoops, look at the time. Later.

Thank you. I appreciate this. I'm responding to his deliberate provocation. He sees that as a personal attack. [Remainder of post deleted]. Moderator's Note: If you believe you are being provoked, report it. That WordWolf saw your "response" as a personal attack is reasonable. That anyone would think it wasn't a personal attack is not reasonable.

So..if I post an opinion you consider to be wrong...this constitutes an "attack"??? [deleted content] Hello, Maddywolf. 148 posts and I saw none of them before today. I stand corrected. Moderator's Note: disagreeing with a poster is not an attack. The post that was deleted WAS an attack. Deleted portions of THIS post constitute an attack.

Good point! Money isn't the only thing we can share or give.

The 9/10 will go farther isn't a doctrine, it's HORSE SENSE! If God is really involved, then 1/10 will go farther. Faith as a grain of mustard seed, remember? If God is really involved, everything is better. This doesn't compute for you because you no longer believe in God.

*I don't have a problem with this. Sounds like you still try to acknowledge God in all your ways, including stewardship of money, and that God still honors this. ABS is between individuals and God. I never heard VP blur this. LCM didn't just threaten people with catastrophe about ABS, he once ranted about people not renewing their way mag subscriptions after the free one year subscription after taking pfal. He says you have money for HBO and Cinemax, but not for the way mag. He was mad, too. It's almost comical to think about now. The only bad consequences I, personally, have ever heard about coming to people regarding ABS are leaders spending ABS money on personal stuff. Makes me wonder about the current state of twi. In the fellowship I now attend, we got some financial help in 2006, when much of St. Louis was without power for 8 days, to cover the cost of staying in motels. I'm sure we weren't the only ones, too. Also, in twi, I'm told that 85% of ABS went to HQ and 15% stayed in the limb. Other way around in the current fellowship. Nothing wrong with using ABS money to help people who have a need. I like that you say, "Maybe I'm blessed for that, and maybe I'm not." In other words you trust God and you trust the people and organizations you give to and that's all you need to know and that's all anyone else needs to know.

I'm going to do these in order; may take awhile. *Agreed! VP said in 'Lifestyle of a believer' that there are 3 things which justify one person giving money to another person. 1) for merchandise, 2) for service, and 3) out of love, which can only be opened from the inside, as I said in my first post, not out of coercion. *I'll dispute you a bit on this one. Jesus told his disciples that a poor woman who gave 2 mites gave more than the pharissees, because she gave all her living while they only gave of their abundance. Maybe he wasn't "criticizing" their giving, but he definitely made a distinction.

Related flashback Unspecified hypothetical person: Michael Jackson is pist at you. Eddie Murphy: So? This is bizzare. I'll address this when I have time, just not now.

*If my God was as big of a jerk as yours, I'd think of getting me a new one.

quote: You're asking the wrong questions because you're looking at the wrong thing. One question. Wordwold, where have you been all my life? Finally, someone can tell me what questions to ask and what thing(s) to look at. Even twi was not THAT controlling. Romans 7:12 - Wherefore the law is holy and the commandment holy, and just, and good. The tithe is part of that law. Why wouldn't someone want to do something God says is holy and just and good? If anybody's looking at the wrong thing, it's those who say ABS is only about twi's money.

Y'all act like God won't spit in my direction if I am loyal to anything at all associated with twi. I'll be back later, but I have to go to work.

This is a response to part of a discussion in the seniors thread. This would be off topic there, but I wanted to specifically talk about abundant sharing. In the aforementioned thread... Waysider said... I know when I left, I had apprehensions about what would happen because I no longer abundantly shared. then outandabout countered with... I know what happened when you no long abundantly shared - you had MORE money!!! I'm not trying to diss what anyone said. I have been a believer in ABS since it was first taught to me by my first pfal class instructor. Jesus said I stand at the door and knock. Some believe the door is symbolic of the door to a person's heart, which can only be opened from the inside. It doesn't help anything when self appointed bill collectors for Jesus tell you God won't spit in your direction etc. There is scriptural evidence that God feels we owe him the "coin of our hearts", but that coin must still be opened from the inside. In 1977 I had a job at a grocery store. I came in late afternoons and cleaned the butcher's equipment and the back area in general. Then I made up my mind to go wow. At that time it was $150. They wanted us to send it in advance to let them know you really were going. The job wasn't sufficient to get that, but I kept ABSing. Then, I was informed at work that they wanted me to stay there all night (the nights I worked) and clean the carpeted floor with a steam cleaner. It didn't dent the wine spills in that aisle, but it got me my wow money. When my wife and I were courting I told her there were 2 things I demanded of her if we were to get married. 1) I wanted to have 3 kids and 2) I really really thought ABS was important and I needed her to be on board with that. We've never had an argument about it. Getting back to outandabout's comment: I know what happened when you no long abundantly shared - you had MORE money!!! OK, that's one way of looking at it, but my question is... Why even believe in God at all if He can't even give the increase on your ABS? What CAN God do if He can't do that? VP said it best. He said 9/10 with God's blessings on it will go farther than 10/10ths without. He also said tithing without recognition of God's goodness and love is sheer folly. What, exactly, is 'recognition of God's goodness and love'? How about just taking time to be thankful for stuff. I can be as grumpy and whiny as anybody, but there's much to be thankful for. Every single day is a gift from God. If God doesn't directly do anything to bless your life, then religion is vain. All you get from going to church is the same false moral superiority that the guy gets from going to the bar. No difference.

I remember back when I was in my 20s/30s there weren't many seniors in any twig I was in. We gave them some love during fellowship, but didn't really want to hang with them other than that. It occurs to me that in the late 70s the powers that were in twi were not seniors. Today, Rosalie is in her 70s and Howard Allen is in his 80s. Would that possibly affect the treatment of seniors in twi? They can't say it's their problem anymore because they are them.

Sweltering heat? It got down in the 30s at night during the 1979 ROA. The spirit of God is quite real. That trumps any human failure.

quote: Second, there seems to be a defense mechanism built into some Christians that requires them to slander those who once embrace and later leave the faith as never having truly been believers. I posted that you were no different than me. How could I "slander" you? Am I also slandering myself?

quote: Does it take faith to deny Zeus, Thor and Odin? No. Nor does it take faith to deny Satan. He doesn't exist. It takes faith to say he does. I reject that, and it does not take faith to do so. quote: Christians or any other religion that claims "to know" for certainty anything is only peddling BS. 2 plus 2 = 4. Raf doesn't say IMO he doesn't exist. Nor does he say I don't believe he exists. He's SURE! He says "He doesn't exist." So, by Oakspear's definition, Raf is "peddling BS". Call it WHATEVER you wish, if someone is sure that the devil doesn't exist, that's faith. We're speaking English here, correct?

This sounds like that line from the Kansas song 'carry on my wayward son', if I claim to be a wise man, then it's sure that I don't know. Hey, I like one liners.

Like I said, we all selectively reason. We're not robots.

Faith is believing in something you can't prove. You (or anybody else) can selectively reason all the way to Pluto and back. Then you can call it science or legitimate or anything else you want to call it. I don't make sense? So. You can't make sense out of God. Why should you make sense out of anything else? I gotta recall something here that sort of relates. In Sept. of 1976 I went to a friend's house. He was at the time a jazz musician. He did not smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, or do drugs, even though, being a jazz musician, he certainly hung with people who did all those things. He also did not believe in God. Neither did I at the time, so we got along. We were in his kitchen. He was going to drink tea and I was going to smoke a joint. Then the doorbell rang. It was a jesus freak. Now, even though my friend didn't believe in God, he wasn't afraid to talk to people about religion. So he lets this guy come in his house and sit on the sofa. Pause that! I've gone door to door witnessing a lot. NOBODY ever let me come in their house and sit on the couch. I got some people who would lean out the door and talk to me, but NOBODY actually let me into their house. So, in retrospect, I'm guessing this jesus freak, who I would later learn was a WOW Ambassador, was sure that God was opening a door of utterance for him. I was still in the kitchen thinking, "Why did he let this guy in his house?" I waited and waited and finally I lit up the joint and walked into the living room and sat down next to my friend. I did some theatre too, I looked at the guy like "What a weirdo!" The guy looked at me like he thought the devil himself had materialized in human form right in this guy's kitchen and walked into the room just to screw up his witness. He finally left. Two weeks later (totally separate from the wow) I went to my first twig fellowship. Four months later I was a new student in pfal and went somewhere for the orientation meeting and GUESS who was there helping out? Yep. The WOW ambassador. He looked at me and did an OMG! I don't think he ever expected ME to be a new student in pfal. Maybe God was trying to show the wow that, NO, it wasn't the guy who let you into his house...it was the guy smoking the joint...THAT was the guy who wanted the word. The jazz musician wasn't ever going to believe anything. Nice guy though. The last time I saw him was 20 years ago. He was doing OK. Still didn't believe in God. I guess I'm just curious. Raf, when you took pfal, did you just hear about twi and go in deceitfully on purpose, or did you go out of natural curiosity and take it one fellowship at a time? Cause you sound like you have held your true beliefs since childhood.I'm not totally surprised, but I wondered about that after you posted that thread about faking SIT. Like I said, my friend the jazz musician didn't believe in God but he would bait people into conversing about religion just to be able to express his views contradicting it and he wasn't mean spirited about it either that I ever saw. You're right about one thing. Discussion about specific beliefs is probably meaningless. We both have our minds made up.