johniam

quote: Soldiers kill, a POW died, . . . but VP fell asleep. Quite a change in tone there. My mom's foster brother didn't die as a pow. I was born in 1954. His group of pows were freed by Russian soldiers in 1945. He later fought as a pilot in Korea. That didn't kill him, either. Ironically, he died when a cargo plane he was flying went down in the Atlantic. quote: "In the world" ... athletes cheat ... as opposed to a place where this does not happen? My point exactly. AOS implied that athletes are better spiritually than soldiers.

When AOS was current, we were all taught that a soldier kills an opponent, but an athlete tries to outdistance an opponent, therefore, calling believers athletes is better than calling them soldiers. Well, after further review...I disagree. Killing is not the only thing a soldier does. My mother was put in foster care when she was 12. After 2 years of 3 foster homes that didn't work out, she was placed in one that did. This family had a 5 year old boy. My mother certainly helped raise him. He grew up, became a pilot, was shot down over Germany in 1944, and spent 14 months in a prison camp. I never met the guy; he died a year before I was born, but I've seen letters he wrote to my mom. He said that with the exception of a month or so in which food was in very short supply, he was not treated that badly in the prison camp. The German soldiers didn't kill him, they held him captive. Whatever he did to oppose Germany, he could not do while he was in the camp. This reminds me of 2 scriptures: the one that says Christ led captivity captive, and the one that says he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way. Just as those German soldiers held my mom's foster brother captive so that he was limited in what he could do to oppose Germany, we believers, who are the lights of the world, limit what the adversary can do to oppose, not only God's people, but the whole world. This strikes me much more like military than athletic. About athletic... In the world, athletes get a lot of praise. Not just Tom Brady praise, but even kids who plays T ball will get all kinds of love from whomever is supervising them. Also, in the world, athletes who play team sports have to compete with their own teammates for playing time. Some of those athletes are willing to do ethically questionable things to 'outdistance' their own teammates. It seems to me that even before VP fell asleep, the tone of the ministry morphed from walking in love and being kind one to another, into judging each others' flesh thinking it was walking by the spirit. AOS exacerbated this. I'm leaning toward concluding that this was the game changer. I even suspect that LCM really believed that by enforcing the strict legalistic dogma which included the debt purge, homo purge, and unproductive evil purge in 1995, that God would give the increase and the numbers would come back to the ministry just like in the 70s. Didn't happen.

I met him once. He came to St. Louis. I think he was there to promote the way corps. I got to play a couple of songs during the fellowship. I was tuning my guitar in the bathroom (best acoustics) and he walked in. He was nice. Some leadership seemed to believe that musicians were 2nd class believers...ego trips waiting to happen. John Lynn was NOT like that. I was never really aware much of his post TWI ministry and any doctrinal differences, but it says a lot that so many disgruntled ex way people would rally around him. They say the cream rises to the top. John Lynn must've had some.

Just for the record, Walter Cummins taught DWA, not VP. quote: "I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? " Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? Interesting how it's only "trinitarian churches" that are a risk for getting possessed, here. Other cults, no. Groups demanding blind loyalty, no. Actual occult practices, no. Actual devil/demon worship, no. No worries about practicing Satanists, but that Franciscan Order RCC that's feeding the hungry and helping people get jobs and housing are hazardous to your spiritual health! Where did I say "only"? Also...quote: Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? - That's not what I posted. All you ever do is misrepresent anything you don't like. I don't have to give you a straight answer. (Prov. 26:4 - answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him) Hey, Waysider? I guess you succeeded in luring me into an argument after all.

John 8:12 - the pharisees therefore said unto him, thou bearest record of thyself, thy record is not true. In other words, hey, Jesus, that's just your opinion. Same self righteous tone as in WWs and Waysider's last posts. I recall one encounter with a person who was adamant about the trinity. I tried to point out 1 Tim 1:5, one God...one mediator between God and men...the man Christ Jesus. Not the God/man, the man. The idiot came back with...a mediator has to be fully partaker of both. Not correct. A mediator, by definition, is a third party, agreed on by the other 2 parties to resolve a dispute. For example, in major league baseball at times, a player will demand X amount of money, but the team says no, we'll give you less than X. So a mediator is hired to resolve the dispute. The mediator in this case is called an arbitrator. This arbitrator is not a player or an owner. He/she cannot be full or any percent partaker of either. If he/she was, it would be a conflict of interests. Jesus is not any percent partaker of God. He is a man, but all other humans are sinners. Jesus was tempted in all points, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). (Pssst...God cannot be tempted Jas 1:13) This is the ONLY thing which qualifies Jesus to be a mediator between God and man. Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree. You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? Again, you think you are smarter than God. 'No other Gods' is perfectly understandable. BTW God sees me as holy. No one approaches God without holiness. Check out Lev 10:1-3 if you want to see what happens to people who try to approach God without holiness. Christ accomplished holiness for us (Eph 1:4). But, of course, you still think you are smarter than God, so that can't be right.

quote: May I ask what led you to this conclusion? Couple scriptures come to mind...avoid foolish and unlearned questions...don't cast pearls before swine... I think you're being disingenuous with me. You don't care what led me to this or any conclusion. You're just trying to lure me into an argument. Not going there, but I will attempt to answer your question. IMO the MOST perpetual sign of God's love to mankind is...that he gave us, by creation, the capacity to make our own choices. Nobody is really a robot. We all process life in our own ways. Our minds, again by creation, all have the capacity to formulate thoughts. 95 plus percent of our thoughts are from our own minds, but that isn't the only possibility. God can directly put thoughts in our minds, especially those of us who are born again of His spirit. So can the devil. We learned in the 'dealing with the adversary' class that the devil has 4 fronts. 4 ways of disseminating info to us. 1) society 2) religion (source of the trinity, wink, wink) 3 other people and 4) ourselves. It works like this...not every word from those 4 are directly from the devil, but some are. If an individual believes and meditates on words directly from the devil from the first 3 of those, then ultimately, that's what will enable the devil to put thoughts directly into that individual's mind. That's basically how ANYBODY can get possessed. Comprende? Didn't think so. You could get possessed anywhere. Jack the Ripper was from the royal family. You don't think he was possessed? You could be raised in Barbie's dream house and still get possessed. The most strict laws in the OT were attempting to keep devil spirits out of Israel. Worshipping other gods was number 1 concern. The trinity is another god. VP did, in advanced class 79, make the distinction between being adamant about the trinity and not being adamant, saying that those who were adamant were possessed. I met people like that. Creeeeepeeeee! Process this post any way you wish, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

I don't speak for all spinoffs, but mine seems to regard pfal as an "old wineskin" There is a list of 16 points of doctrine pfal was wrong about. Richard Thomas had a guy in the area tell him he was running pfal classes. He called the guy a thief and a dinosaur. I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? I listened to Terry Riley's 'A rainbow in curved air' Yesterday. I don't FEEL possessed! (in the same spirit as David Lee Roth's "I don't FEEL tardy!" from 'Hot for teacher' BTW Back in the day, I would have felt perfectly safe doing TWO hits of acid while listening to that song. (Rainbow...not Hot)

Mike quote: Good to see you still kicking, johniam! :) Are you still swinging a squeegee? I am, but far less now. I'm 72. Yeah, one day at a time. After 20 years I just quit window cleaning. My wife is wheel chair bound now. This happened maybe 4 months ago. Since then I just couldn't keep up with my work, so I quit. I collect social security benefits, so at least that's still coming in, but I quit 6 weeks ago and I still feel like I work a lot every day. I am welcome to make my services available again for window cleaning, but I'll see how this plays out. Good to see YOU still kicking.

I don't ever remember any TWI leader discouraging us from reading the gospels. Yes, at times in TWI the gospels were used merely to augment the epistles, but that's better than what churches did...totally ignore the epistles. There is nothing that could happen in a 'so called' cult...that couldn't also happen in a 'so called' mainstream Christian church. Adolescents getting molested in a catholic church is as bad or worse than anything that could happen in a "cult". The argument that VPs sins negate the possibility that he was right about anything is absurd...just simply not true. Imagine the most heinous crimes possible. Murder, sexual assault, theft, etc. Imagine that I, Johniam, am guilty of those. Then imagine yourself...not guilty of any of those. Each of us (myself and yourself) say that 2 plus 2 equals 4. Am I less correct than you??? We're ALL sinners. We ALL deserve the death Jesus endured for us. That doesn't mean that any one of us cannot tell many truths. If you don't want to fellowship with someone whom you KNOW is guilty of such and such, then you don't have to. I got into the word in 1976. If I had found out in, say, 1980 that VP was doing what he did with women, then I may have had a real problem with continuing beyond the people I knew in twig. I really can't say conclusively how I would have responded. Yet, much of PFAL still rings true. The doctrine has nothing directly to do with VPs lifestyle (part of it). I repeat, there's a difference between blindly following man made traditions and focusing on "what does the word really say". I believe that was VPs #1 agenda.

Well, if I'm going to comment, I need to sit through it. This video is nothing more than a guy thinking evil and going on a 12 minute rant about it. There's more. You can tell by listening to his vocal flow, that he's obsessed. He's run those thoughts through his mind rapid fire for decades. Martindale wasn't that bad when he talked about Jews and homos. Even VPs teaching 'the way of life and death' wasn't that out of control. The guy's a whack job. Victor Paul Wierwille's Power for abundant living class did indeed do one thing very well.....it drew a line in the sand which clearly separated mainstream Christianity, which is STILL based on man made traditions not found in scripture...from biblical research, which is based on the firm belief that the words in the bible as originally given by God, are truth, God breathed, whatever you want to call it. I've attended a few churches since leaving TWI. Those people are mostly Christians, not glassy eyed robots. They know a lot of the same stuff we do. But they still believe Jesus is God, that dead people aren't really dead, they don't understand incorruptible seed ( they think they can be saved one moment and unsaved the next), some of them think they might go to hell for playing outside on Sunday. THAT should be regarded as brainwashing! People don't join cults because they're "brainwashed"...they join because they want more substance than they're ever going to get from their church. Not everybody feels that way, but, obviously, enough people do so there will always be small religions that spring up which bigotted mainstream ministers will be likely to label as "cults". Take your best shot. PS Rev. Richard Thomas has fallen asleep. He had cancer for 2 years. He was 71.

That tape was probably VPs last ever teaching at the auditorium. It would have been dated April 21, 1985. I saw the video of it. He looked disorientated at times and he used verses of both Paul and Peter alluding to their imminent deaths. He knew he didn't have much time left. But I'm sure, to a lot of people, it would "prove" you were in a "cult".

You mean he's doing teachings and people actually want to listen to him??? Overall, I feel sorry for him more than I hate him, but I never got my face melted by him.

Happy 70th, LCM. Is he happy? Anybody heard any current info (gossip) about him?

I watched 50 minutes of the video. I wouldn't have recognized anybody. I'd seen the Moynihands and Michael Fort before, just too long ago. At about 9:10 on the left side of the screen a woman was walking behind everybody in another room. Then she sat down and you could see her feet bobbing up and down periodically. At 44 minutes she was visible again and not long after that she walked away. Was that Melody? It was interesting for me to see them and hear them talk, but I concur with several of the comments that followed. Back in 1994, when they did those 3 purges (debt, homo, and unproductive evil), twi changed from an open door, whosoever will may come, shucks, there ain't no strangers at the way...ministry to an elitist group. Before that, you could just be a joe believer without aspiring to be way corps and they treated you OK. Not anymore. I did a timeline and I'd like to add to it. 1975 - twi releases JCING, becoming an instant "cult" - 8K at ROA 1986 - After 11 years of persecution, Passing of Patriarch revealed, having great impact - 20 plus K at ROA 1989 - After 3 years of "fog" many exit twi...LCM responds w/loyalty letter, having some impact - 4Kat ROA 1994 = After 5 years of loyalty letter impact, LCM et al become puffed up with false confidence - 11K at ROA. So, the people in that R&R video were all totally on board with the elitism LCM and later, RFR were the faces for. And now 25 years later they want us to believe their hearts are pure??? Not buying that! They still think they're eliter than thou. They just want to get paid for it better.

IIRC, back in the 70s the IRS paid VP a visit. One point of contention was that VP claimed that his salary was something ridiculously small (can't remember what it was). They told him he had to have at least a much larger amount by law. Anybody remember this? So... If that was true, it's not too much of a stretch to suppose that, also by law, LCM would rate SOMETHING as severance pay for his 18 yrs as pres, and the 65K was what he and twis lawyers agreed upon. Just a thought.

I was never "love bombed". Just loved. First by God. Then by some of his people. btw You don't have to be in twi for someone to try to take advantage of you.

Hey, Mike. Good to see your, uh, (screen name) face.

Previously on Johniam.... R This topic seems flexible. I didn't want to start a new thread, so, hopefully, this will fit in. Couple nights ago I watched Athletes of the Spirit for the first time in at least 20 years. A week ago was LCMs 69th bday. I wondered what it would be like to see it outside of the contexts of a)1985 and all the hype, and b) after leaving twi and hearing all the criticism/ridicule here and elsewhere. Just wanted to see it as a single event independent of controversy. I thought I might stop watching after 5-15 minutes; didn't know. I watched it in its entirety. Nothing life changing, but a few things came to mind. 1) Ken McCaw did the music. He's still got it. He currently helps other exwayfers record stuff and he did a CD in 2005 called 'Where righteousness prevails'. He must have had a lot to do with that twi recording called 'Bold and blessed' which I always liked. I thought his contribution to AOS was excellent. 2) Overall, I thought it was a good production. Some of those people were professional dancers. Even LCM did not look terribly out of place (imo). Recently, Kurt Warner was on 'Dancing with the stars'. He lasted only a few rounds, but he said that being a quarterback actually helped him with doing those dance steps. QBs have to practice footwork for when they go back in the pocket and have to decide very quickly whether to pass the ball or roll out to the left or right or even run with the ball. LCM wasn't a QB but his athletic background didn't appear to hinder him much. AOS was filmed in front of a live audience, and ONE TIME I noticed LCM dropped somebody he was moving side to side (he held this person's thigh with one hand and upper arm with the other and was trying to toss him/her a few feet over and he lost his grip on the thigh). Other than that he seemed to execute all moves successfully. There's more but I gotta leave for fellowship. Back later. OK I'm back. 3) LCM claimed that AOS was an 'allegory', which he said was an extended metaphor. We were also taught that a metaphor is a comparison by representation. Example: the communion ceremony...take, eat, this is (this (the bread) represents) my body which is broken for you. Suggesting that the Christian success alluded to in the narration of AOS was represented by the dancing/judo/karate moves. Sounds plausible, but... 4) Some of the doctrine behind AOS I don't have a problem with. OK, God, His angels, and His people are the good guys; the devil, his angels and his people are the bad guys. Check. The devil is still the god of this world and can still control a LOT of things that happen in the world. Check. It is possible for God's people, under good leadership, to make the world less evil and less dark than it could be. BUT... 5) There was no specific instruction in AOS on what was and was not good leadership and good training. It was all implied to a target audience familiar with the terminology used in AOS, AND...it ultimately didn't work. 6) IMO there is some value in the concept. Who else would make a production like that? The catholic church? Landover Baptist? It definitely gives the viewer something to think about. Who knows? A hundred years from now someone might watch it and get really inspired. Enough to start an effort that will bless a lot of people. That is, if Christ hasn't returned. I wonder if anyone from twi today finds any value in it.

This topic seems flexible. I didn't want to start a new thread, so, hopefully, this will fit in. Couple nights ago I watched Athletes of the Spirit for the first time in at least 20 years. A week ago was LCMs 69th bday. I wondered what it would be like to see it outside of the contexts of a)1985 and all the hype, and b) after leaving twi and hearing all the criticism/ridicule here and elsewhere. Just wanted to see it as a single event independent of controversy. I thought I might stop watching after 5-15 minutes; didn't know. I watched it in its entirety. Nothing life changing, but a few things came to mind. 1) Ken McCaw did the music. He's still got it. He currently helps other exwayfers record stuff and he did a CD in 2005 called 'Where righteousness prevails'. He must have had a lot to do with that twi recording called 'Bold and blessed' which I always liked. I thought his contribution to AOS was excellent. 2) Overall, I thought it was a good production. Some of those people were professional dancers. Even LCM did not look terribly out of place (imo). Recently, Kurt Warner was on 'Dancing with the stars'. He lasted only a few rounds, but he said that being a quarterback actually helped him with doing those dance steps. QBs have to practice footwork for when they go back in the pocket and have to decide very quickly whether to pass the ball or roll out to the left or right or even run with the ball. LCM wasn't a QB but his athletic background didn't appear to hinder him much. AOS was filmed in front of a live audience, and ONE TIME I noticed LCM dropped somebody he was moving side to side (he held this person's thigh with one hand and upper arm with the other and was trying to toss him/her a few feet over and he lost his grip on the thigh). Other than that he seemed to execute all moves successfully. There's more but I gotta leave for fellowship. Back later.

I asked the guys about this. Nobody heard of it. Not a big deal. I read some comments on their website and I wondered if there might be some ex wafers there. Someone used the phrase 'rightly dividing the word' and I don't hear that from many non twi believers, but nothing about manifestations of the spirit or anything else that would be a dead giveaway that it was twi related. But, really, CG does not try to be the MOGFODAT. He does classes, teachings, and print material, but he lets local leaders alone. We have access to people like Walter Cummins, but we all are allowed to have lives.

Wow. I never heard of the St. Louis Bible Fellowship from that link. Coincidence, I guess.

I don't know anything about the so called "depravity of his past". Never met the guy.

It's affiliated with Chris Geer. The whole scene is a lot less invasive than twi was (especially the last 5 yrs I was in twi (89-94))

I can. The fellowship I attend is part of the St. Louis Bible Fellowship. I've been told that back in the 80s 85% of abs went to hq and 15% stayed in the limb. We do the opposite. In 2006 there were a bad series of storms here and we were without electricity for 8 days. It happened in July when the temp was 100 degrees or so. Pretty much everybody on our block had to waste food. Some of us had freezers full of food. What do you suppose it smelled like with all those trash dumpsters at the curb. We spent 5 of the 8 nights in motels. We also received a check for several hundred dollars taken out of abs. I'm guessing we weren't the only believers who got that. Never got anything like that from twi. There are places in scripture where believers helped other believers in need. (Acts6:1-6, Acts11:27-30)

All that is irrelevant. I answered your question.