johniam

quote: Rather than speaking in broad generalities, give us specifics of you claim. You can start by telling us what good Saint Vic did. PFAL, Receiving the holy spirit today, Christians should be prosperous, the bible tells me so, the new dynamic church, the word's way, God's magnified word, Order my steps in thy word, Jesus Christ is not God, are the dead alive now, Jesus Christ our passover, Jesus Christ our promised seed, and all things he did in support of all that.

Just a bit off topic. Typical, I guess. I haven't even read more than half of the posts in that trinity thread I did awhile back. Speculation, in and of itself, is OK. Every post contains a mix of facts, opinions, and speculation. That's how humans communicate. I am not a 'spiritual heavyweight'....I merely have the spirit of God, incorruptible seed, and peace in my heart. In 1994 I chose my marriage over the ministry that taught me the word. Sometimes people have to choose their marriage over their job. When those in your life get too bullying and controlling, you have to stand up to them. Not easy to do. VP himself wrote in 'Lifestyle of a believer' that at times you have 2 clear and plain duties which conflict and you have to decide which one to perform and which one to neglect. In 1994 those a$$holes told me that I and my then 5 year old daughter were welcome, but my wife and then 4 year old autistic son were not. Game over. I wrote a scathing letter and sent copies to limb/region coordinator (who later admitted he'd been following a lunatic for 6 years), trunk cordo, and LCM. Not many days hence I received a letter telling me that I am no longer welcome at any TWI fellowship. Praise God!!! Twenty eight years later, still married, still have the spirit of God. If I had chosen the ministry that taught me the word in 1994, they would surely have pressured me to divorce and "free myself". I have plenty to show for leaving the ministry that taught me the word. I moved from Michigan to St. Louis under financially questionable circumstances. Got a solvent job, a 4 bedroom house (only had 2 paystubs at closing), and we're doing good. God truly is my sufficiency. TWI thinks I have "departed from the faith"....I think they have made shipwreck of their faith. You guys can throw all the self righteous vomit at me and Mike that you wish. THAT'S the real 'strawman'.

quote: included speculation that contradicted eyewitness accounts of what happened at the time, and skipped all the responsibility vpw had in the situation. Eyewitness accounts, huh? Impossible that any of that was 'speculation', right? Speculation is not 'one size fits all'! At least I spent 18 years in TWI. How long were you in? 5 minutes? I was a twig coordinator, wow vet, advanced class grad, and I was trusted by TWI leadership to play music at many fellowships. Modest as that may seem, my speculation is way better than yours. All you got is 5 minutes and a perpetual witch hunt. I totally agree with an unvarnished hate free history.

quote: Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ name to any organization that calls themselves Christian but preaches the damnable prosperity gospel. You can go make all the money you want in life and you can even do that as a Christian, but that's not the essence of Christianity. Christians are people. David was called a man after God's own heart and he wasn't Christian. He also did something that displeased the Lord in 2 Samuel 11:27. We're all like that too. To say they're not even Christian is just playing God.

quote: Clearly, what he was pitching was the promise of material gain. No God needed, just follow the formula. Everybody wants more money. We still use money. Some parts of life you have to navigate your way through and money is no help, but much of life you have to purchase your way through. You don't have to be a "religious cult" to encourage people to make more money.

quote: - In 1978 LCM taught the SNS. The teaching was called 'Steven: both guns blazing. It impressed a lot of people. Donnie Fugit wrote a song with that title. Joyful Noise, on the 'God's team' recording had a song Both Barrels Blazing. Could it be that THAT teaching is what elevated him from being a rising TWI leader to a serious candidate to succeed VP as TWI president??? The part of that teaching I remember most is his use of an even then archaic phrase..."AW CRUD!!!" This was a 3rd generation euphemism. First was aw yes aitch eye tee. Then aw crap, then aw crud. Some people have weird ideas about what constitutes quality of life.

quote: I disagree that Walter being President would have significantly altered the course of the Way history. That's not what I meant. I meant that IF Walter had become TWI prezz that it would have altered Walter's credibility as a research guy. As far as what Walter could have done as TWI prezz...part of me would love to have found out.

Couple weeks ago I googled L Craig Martindale. I wondered if he was still alive. I saw a link called 'one bad decision away from homelessness'. I don't know who the guy is, but his essay was very long. Took me over an hour to read it. It even made Wordwolf's posts seem brief by comparison. This guy claimed he was in TWI and posted on GSC. He had some scathing things to say about both of them. His pet peeve about GSC was what he called lack of forgiveness. He said he was banned from here for life. Just because you won't forgive someone for something doesn't mean your whole life and walk with God are totally flawed. There are things from my past I still hate when I think about them. I don't let myself get too distracted, but this is just human pathos. As long as you don't go on a killing spree, you're probably OK. Once upon a time in TWI, we were taught that there are 5 basics...5 basic ways to practice Christianity. 1) read the bible 2) pray 3) assemble yourselves together (fellowship) 4) abundantly share and 5) witness to people. btw abundant sharing is not limited to money. Time is more perishable than money. I even consider what Mother Teresa did as abs. Speaking of abs....2Cor. 9:7 - every man according as he purposes in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loveth a cheerful giver. That particular phrasing is only used in the context of abs, however, I see no reason why this cannot be applied to the other 4 basics. I read the bible because I'm blessed to do so, not because" God might get mad at me if I don't"...and on down the list. I attended my first twig fellowship in October of 1976. During the rest of the 1970s I went to twigs in Michigan, Missouri, Ohio, and California, and the overall tone of those fellowships was very consistently cheerful. Oh, every so often somebody would get on their soapbox for a little too long about something, but that was the exception, not the rule. I believe the reason so many people came to TWI in the 70s was because of the cheerful atmosphere. Especially people who went to a church where they were constantly threatened with hellfire over every little thing. Unfortunately, over the next several years, the rule and the exception reversed. I blame Martindale more than anyone else. The more his influence increased, the more the cheerfulness decreased. By the time VP fell asleep the damage had been done. Everything that followed was natural fallout. I have 2 examples of how LCM chipped away at the cheerfulness. The basic covered by this is assemble together. At Living Victoriously class sessions were morning and evening; afternoons were free time. One afternoon Branded was rehearsing at the big top and naturally drew a crowd. LCM opportunistically started 'sharing'. His tone was heavy. One thing he said is that the dropout rate in TWI was highest the year after the wow year. He was outraged. He basically made a vain repetition out of "you owe your life and commitment to the ministry that taught you the word". God is not limited to the ministry that taught me the word. That kind of logic will lead people away from cheerfulness and to embracing grudgingly and of necessity. Compared to the cheerfulness of the 70s, it seems like believers in general started becoming more openly judgmental at fellowships, all in the name of being a "believing believer". The atmosphere drastically changed. Another time, LCM said that God called it robbery when people didn't tithe in the OT, so it must be grand larceny in the age of grace. Grace!!!!???? We are absolutely not bound by the OT law, but if you can cheerfully give 10% or more, God is OK with that, but if 5% or less is all you can give cheerfully, God will still honor that. In CSBP VP said 90% with God's blessing on it will go farther than 100% without. I believe that 99% will have the same result. In 1994 with those purges and mass excommunications LCM really did show ALL his true colors, but prior to that it was gradual. Many of his teachings were heavy. VP and Walter Cummins spoke more easy to be entreated; their words just sounded more measured and palatable. LCM started out slow at times, but you knew eventually he was going to rev it up and spend minutes at a time talking in a loud higher pitched monotone. After hearing enough of that, I could screen him out fairly easily. It was kind of like stopping at a traffic light and couple cars away somebody has music cranked up really loud. LCM also routinely alternated between heavy and humorous. His overall tone was heavy, then he'd punctuate it with humor so it was hard to gauge where all this was headed. I think it's possible that the high profile leadership who left TWI in 1987 (Walter, Earl Burton, and John Townsend; people like that) knew exactly what was coming and finally made their exit. Then in 1989 the loyalty letter, then in 1994 the purges and 'deportations'. LCM wanted to "clean up the ministry". All the people who bought into that were desensitized. Anybody who thought for themselves even a little were now expendable. LCM was "cleaning up" a culture he himself created. Couple more things. I never heard anybody say this, but I would not be surprised to learn that Walter Cummins was offered the presidency and turned it down. To this day he is a research guy. He still writes books and has an internet fellowship. If he had been made president of TWI that would have been altered. In 1978 LCM taught the SNS. The teaching was called 'Steven: both guns blazing. It impressed a lot of people. Donnie Fugit wrote a song with that title. Joyful Noise, on the 'God's team' recording had a song Both Barrels Blazing. Could it be that THAT teaching is what elevated him from being a rising TWI leader to a serious candidate to succeed VP as TWI president???

I still got a ton of it. My son listens to it more than me. I got to play 'It's gotta be God' at fellowship yesterday. Still sounds good; still rings true. Bev and Steve Strick did 'Miles of smiles' in 1973. Joni Mitchell released a live album in 1975 called....'Miles of aisles'. What a "coincidence".

Does the roto rooter treatment refer to a colonoscopy? If so, had my first one couple years back. The procedure was OK; the prep??? Reminded me of what some corps said about the colon cleanse.

Puberty and menopause. Those are the only 2 I can think of. Periods of time when one has to make an adjustment that have names. What about the ones that don't have names??? Throughout life not much time goes by before we have to make adjustments: either a physical medical adjustment or mental processing adjustment. We are all constantly doing this. I see aging as yet another period of adjustment. Perhaps the frequency of making those adjustments is accelerated in aging, but it's awkward when things like simple balance and hand eye coordination that we've taken for granted for decades are starting to wear down. Ultimately, we're all going to die, but I want to stay as proactive as possible until that happens. There are some benefits to aging. I went to my 50th year high school reunion few months back. There were 450 in our class, about 10% of which are dead, and over 100 came to the reunion. The overall tone of the event was positive and upbeat. When you get to this age, you're probably as comfortable in your own skin as you're ever going to get. That can have a positive impact on such an event. People are different. Not everybody ages the same. I have never had to wear glasses. When I was young my mom fed me rabbit's food, and I actually liked it. Raw carrots, celery, cucumbers, tomatoes, broccoli, cauliflower, even radishes and scallions were in her rotation. I need reading glasses to read some stuff, but I won't get driver tested again until 2027. I do, however have knee problems. No surgery yet, but I've weighed 200 plus for 30 years. That must put pressure on knees. When I walk downstairs I can at times do so one step at a time without holding a handrail. Other times I not only hold the rail, I also put both feet on each step all the way down. Err on the side of caution. It occurred to me that many of us are getting up there. I thought perhaps other might want to share things that have helped them age more gracefully.

I want to add something to the first post on this thread. It could be inserted right after the sentence in which I use the phrase 'there are many antichrists'. Beginning in 1976, 4 movies were made entitled 'The Omen'. These movies are about the antichrist. The 4th one was made late 80s/ early 90s and in that one, the antichrist is a girl. There are scenes in that movie that, to me, are downright comical. In at least one of these movies, the idea is put forth that the antichrist will be some kind of genetic wonder, who has the right combination of genes to the most evil person...EVER!!! This is horse crap. The devil doesn't know exactly when Christ is coming back. The 2nd coming of Christ begins with the gathering together. The entire body of Christ, dead and living will be gathered together and taken from the earth. When that happens, all spiritual light will be gone, and only then can darkness make itself manifest to the degree that there will be an antichrist. The devil doesn't know when that's going to happen, so he has to have somebody ready to step in and assume that position at ALL TIMES. It will be a position of opportunity. That's why there have to be many antichrists, not just one with a genetic pedigree.

quote: For those interested in the source of your hissy fit they can see my post you quoted from - here ...have a nice day I find it intriguing that when I come here so many people obsessively make a point of attacking my credibility. Makes me think I must have something right. If ANYBODY here is having a "hissy fit"......??????

quote: The Bible is treated as a closed book. A dead document. As I have said, new information is not being added. I find that a problem. In the grace administration, God's people have the same ability to walk by the spirit of God. No need to add anything. Churches don't teach people to walk by the spirit of God. They teach people to judge after the flesh and CALL it spiritual. I know we put up with a lot of that in twi. Not everything Martin Luther taught was rightly divided, but I think of him as one of the good guys. God will certainly sort out who was the real deal and who wasn't.

quote: . Can you be more specific on what the “much deliverance” was? 2. Who are the “much people”? 3. How do YOU KNOW the NUMBER “church people” who – to this day lie in fear of losing their salvation? How did YOU quantify all that? Please elaborate what metrics you used, what surveys you conducted, and what churches these “church people” go to. It explains itself! Your "infallible doctrine" is that VP was a con artist and nothing else. I do not share that with you. So you call me an idol worshipper. That is your self righteous opinion. You have a lot of those.

quote: The Bible is Not God. So a definitive answer wouldn't likely be there. This post is not Bolshevik, but it originates from Bolshevik. What's the difference?

quote : So, it’s gone from About the Way forum to doctrinal forum…now we need a Kool-Aid testimonial forum…whatever. it’s hilarious how much diehard-wierwille-fans keep pushing that idle idol. There’s no use in logical debate of doctrine and Scripture interpretation with them cuz if wierwille said it – they believe it – that settles it. I did not make even ONE reference to VP in the first post on this thread nor the 2nd. You're just going to see what you want to see. Typical.

quote: If any still believe VPW is a man of God, enjoy it while you can. VPW is DEAD! 37 yrs and counting. I believe he had a one of a kind ministry. Back in 1980 or so, the coordinator of the music group I was in said that VP was the 7th "THE man of God" and that this was very significant. I never heard that same message from anybody else and I'm not sure what it even means, but I do believe that VPs combination of gift ministries was unique, not cookie cutter. Nobody has duplicated the respect and impact he got from his people. LCM acted like he had automatically earned that respect, but he did not. Chris Geer doesn't try to be the MOGFODAT; he just brokers classes and lets local leadership work without interference. He openly disagrees with more than 15 points of VPs doctrine. The fellowship I attend is very non invasive compared to twi even back in the "good old days". As for VP, I think his teaching of incorruptible seed brought much deliverance to much people. Many church people to this day live in fear that their salvation could be 'foreclosed upon' at any time. Nice to know that isn't true. King David is the only person in the bible who is actually called a man after God's own heart, yet when he did what he did to Uriah the Hittite, the bible says the thing David did had displeased the Lord. So it's possible to be a man after God's own heart and still have the capacity to displease the Lord. Same for us. (I assume most of you believe some of the things VP did displeased God) We can be sons of God and still displease the Lord. We're still born of incorruptible seed, we'll still be rewarded at the gathering together, same for VP. VPs ministry changed my life. From my first twig to the present day. I will definitely enjoy that while I can.

quote: This is a logical fallacy. How do you know what his motives were and how do you know what he wanted people to believe? Chapter and verse please. 2 Cor. 2:11 - Lest satan should get an advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. Luke 22:31 - And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. John 14:12 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. We are not ignorant of satan's devices, Jesus knew what satan wanted, and he said we could too. The reason you don't believe that us "lowly Christians" can do the works Jesus did is because you think He's God!

quote: Maybe reread your paragraph. You say people have a choice . . . But it sounds like an ultimatum. You start off with love and end with a threat. The middle sentence feels like a lie in that context. Enjoy it while you can is not a threat, it means while you are still alive. God always gives you a choice. He will generally let you sink or swim based on the choices you make in life. One constant choice is to ask Him for his help (wink, wink).

When the devil tempted Jesus, as recorded in both Matthew chapter 4 and in Luke chapter 4, he offered Jesus "all the kingdoms of this world and the glory of them". He further stated that those things belonged to him and that he could give them to whomever he wanted. If any of that had been false, Jesus would have called his bluff, but it was all true. If the devil never told the truth, then nobody would believe him about anything. He mixes just enough truth to feign plausibility, but, all the while, his intention is to deceive. He was however, free at this time, but that would change. Now, while Jesus was still finishing the work that his Father gave him to do, he encountered people who willingly, yet unwittingly, functioned as mouth pieces for the devil. These people called him a "sinner". They called him a "deceiver". They said of him, "he is mad (crazy) and hath a devil". They said of him, "he is as one that perverteth the people". In short, the devil, at this time, wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil and deserving of death by crucifixion. That changed as well. Now, after Jesus had finished the work that his Father gave him to do, he 1) was crucified 2) was raised from the dead 3)walked on the earth for 40 days after he was raised from the dead 4) on one occasion he was seen by 500 people after he was raised from the dead 5) he ascended into heaven and 6) he poured out God's gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost with the result that ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE received eternal life. This is ironic, because on the day that the law was given to Moses under the old covenant, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were put to death for worshipping a gold calf, an idol. On the day of Pentecost, at which time the new covenant became official, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were ordained unto eternal life. What about the devil? He is no longer free. Prior to the day of Pentecost, he wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil. Since the day of Pentecost, he NOW wants God's people to believe that Jesus is God. Why would he change like that? He did a 180. He looks fickle. What's going on??? As I said, he is no longer free. He now has what amounts to an unpardonable death sentence, and he KNOWS it. He also knows that one day in the future (still future) one of his people will rise up to great power and authority over all the earth. Most Christians call this person 'the antichrist'. Technically, the bible doesn't ever call him 'the' antichrist; the bible says there are many antichrists and this person will just be one of the many. However, the bible Does call him the "man of sin". He is also called the "son of perdition". It is said of him that he will "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God" and he will "sit in the temple of God showing himself that HE IS GOD". AHA! The antichrist is going to be a man who SAYS he's God. All those idiots and fools will believe him, in small part because of the 'lying signs and wonders' he will do, and in much larger part because of the trinity. Many of those people will figure that if God came as a man once, then He could do it again. The trinity promotes the belief that God came as a man once. The trinity is the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. The trinity is a perpetual reminder that..."Haleluia, the antichrist is coming". In the old testament (Numbers 21) serpents were biting people in Israel and many people died. God instructed Moses to make a brass serpent and lift it up on a pole, so that if any body was bitten by one of these serpents and they looked at the brass serpent on the pole, they would live and not die. Approximately 1000 years later, king Hezekiah broke in pieces the brass serpent that Moses made because some people in Israel were worshipping that brass serpent as an idol. God instructed Moses to make the brass serpent, and it saved lives, but God NEVER intended for that serpent to be worshipped as an idol. In John 3:14 Jesus is speaking. He says, "and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up". It is very significant that Jesus made a point of directly comparing Himself with that same brass serpent which Moses made. God sent Jesus to save us from our sins, and he has already save many lives for all eternity, but God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol. Once again, the trinity is both the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. It is a perpetual reminder that..."haleluia, the antichrist is coming". No Christian should want anything to do with supporting something like that. God's love is perpetual. God gave every one the same capacity to make our own choices. God will never force anyone to choose, believe, or do anything. If any still want to believe that a man is God, enjoy it while you can.

I recall LCM teaching somewhere...he said that God called it robbery if people didn't tithe in the OT, therefore...it must be grand larceny if people don't at least tithe in the grace administration. I believe his logic was flawed. In the grace administration, we are absolutely NOT under law. If 5% or less is what someone can give cheerfully (as Wordwolf pointed out), then why wouldn't God honor that? I think He WOULD!

quote: ????????? Tell us more! (Maybe on "My Story" so as not to distract from this (slow-moving) thread.) Slow moving? Functionally, the thread is complete. Someone requested a copy of AOS and got it. The rest is...deep thoughts by Jack Handy gravy.

I said previously that my mother was placed in a foster home that worked out. That was in 1924, when she was 14. Over the next not quite 20 years, she got married and had 3 kids. Then in 1943 my dad got hired by Lear Inc. as an engineer. First they moved him to Piqua, OH. Then 2 years later they moved him to Grand Rapids, MI where I was born and raised. The foster brother I keep referring to was named Jack. In early August of 1953 Jack's mother died, so my mom's family came to St. Louis for the funeral. They were planning to stay there for one week, which became 3 weeks. Jack was at the funeral, but he was still military, so after his mom's funeral his first assignment was to fly that cargo plane, which crashed and killed him. It took about 2 weeks for them to fish his body out of the ocean and get him to St. Louis for HIS funeral. My mom, dad, and 3 children were staying with my dad's parents, who were empty nesters by then. They lived in a house the size of a small cottage. With 7 people staying there, I'm guessing privacy was pretty much non existent. One fateful day, privacy was available...but they had no prophylactics. (all this was told to me by my elder sister, who was 13 at the time) So my mom and dad just took a chance. THAT is how I got here. My parents were both 43 when I was born and my siblings were all more than 10 years older than me. From man's pov I was not planned. From God's...much stranger things have happened. That's pretty much it.

I actually owe my existence to the fact that the guy's plane went down in the Atlantic.