Thanks to you, I am now familiar with his article entitled, "Christian reflections in a time of war". I thought it was honest and thought provoking. His arguments are a refeshing departure from the politics of the "Christian right".
I've only read through an article of his and perused his site a little, but I think I get the general drift.
My main question would be:
Why cleave to Christianity at all?
He doesn't seem to spend an awful lot of time trying to make biblical proofs from scripture or draw lessons from the Bible as to how to act today. He strikes me as a rather typical Unitarian.
Given that there is scant evidence that there ever even was a man named "Jesus of Nazareth" that performed wonderful miracles and made a couple of feel-good sermons, doesn't some attempt to "follow" after him and try to imitate his actions ring just a little bit hollow?(WWJD?) Why the pretense of "Christianity" at all? Why not just formulate a workable philosophy from the voluminous amount of treatises (sp?) that are available? Or, better yet, figure out a workable system of ethics for yourself?
The idea that a cobbled together volume of disparate stories and laws, put together by a bunch of superstitious geeks of the 4th century (an age noted for it's enlightenment?) should somehow command our unquestioned obeisance, strikes me as way more than absurd.
Just what is it about THE BIBLE that commands respect and veneration anyway? Is it really that compelling a work? Viewed from a little more substantial of a distance than I had in WayWorld, I would say "no"...
Knuckles: I'm working my way through his dialogue with Chuck Colson about the evils of postmodernism, but I haven't finished it yet. I haven't made it to the article you mentioned. What was honest, thought-provoking, and refreshing about it?
Well, George, speaking of treatises, you should know better than to ask me any hypothetical questions, because you're going to get a treatise in return. And since I don't really know the answers, that means I'm going to take up that much more space with an attempt to answer by asking you a few hypotheticals in return. Feel free to answer. I'm interested in hearing your perspective, if you care to offer it.
Your questions (though not in the order that you posed them):
Given that there is scant evidence that there ever even was a man named "Jesus of Nazareth" that performed wonderful miracles and made a couple of feel-good sermons, doesn't some attempt to "follow" after him and try to imitate his actions ring just a little bit hollow?(WWJD?)
Hollow? Only when the answer to the question (WWJD?) is imposed. Otherwise, I think it's good and healthy to have role models. Sometimes we get to the point in life when old coping methods don't work, when whatever shelter we've built for ourselves no longer protects us from the elements. It's not that we're necessarily trying to find our path in the midst of a raging thunderstorm, so cold and wet and stunned that we can't see far enough in front of us to have any sense of which direction might lead us out (which would probably be the conditions that bring on the crisis conversion so many religious writers seem to experience). More often, life is just misty and gray, and during those times, a role model comes in handy. Maybe not Jesus, if he offends you. But when you're faced with a frustrating job, or an angry spouse, or demanding children, or any myriad of life's annoyances, I think it helps to ask: What would Confucius say? Or, What would a caring father or a loving mother do now? Or, What would Buddha think? Most of those people are ideals rather than reality, but they help to anchor us, don’t you think?
Why not just formulate a workable philosophy from the voluminous amount of treatises (sp?) that are available? Or, better yet, figure out a workable system of ethics for yourself?
Not a bad idea. But most of those philosophers are way over my head, losing me in their tautological truisms and logical syllogisms. I don’t much care about categorical prepositions, or if A is not A, fascinating though it all is. And the study of ethics (which, thankfully, is pragmatic enough for my feeble brain to comprehend) doesn't generally concern itself with hope and joy and forgiveness. As helpful as it is to have a yardstick to go by to measure the rightness or wrongness of an action, it doesn't measure the heart.
(an age noted for it's enlightenment?)
I don't know if you read, followed, or posted on that thread by RG and catcup on forgiveness, but as I read along, I thought it was a case study in miscommunication, GreaseSpot dynamics, and revenge. From the Vedas to Moses to the Tao to Martin Luther King, Jr. -- any religious leader or religious writing with any credibility, any longevity, extols the virtue of forgiveness. They even require it. Why? Is it because they're all so ignorant and superstitious that they don't know the value of vindictiveness and sorrow? Or did those ancient people have a map to the soul long before there was such a thing as science? Are they really so wrong when it comes to human motivations and longings?
Just what is it about THE BIBLE that commands respect and veneration anyway? Is it really that compelling a work?
When you think about how much influence it's had in shaping the world, I'd have to say, Yes, although my interest in it has waned. I'm not up for any Bible studies. At least not yet.
If I say I always try to be very giving because I always ask myself "What would Santa Claus do?", does that make the concept anymore credible? I wouldn't think so.
Personally I think forgiveness is a good attribute to have simply for one's own well being. Vengence is corrosive to your mental health. And I'm sure I'm not the first one to have figured that out. And the fact that that idea was written down many thousands of years ago doesn't surprise me much. But it also doesn't lend any credibility to the supposed "wisdom" propounded elsewhere in the book, because the rest of the book may well have been written by someone else. So the idea that there are some sound "truths" propounded in the Bible don't necessarily mitigate all the B.S. that's in there as well.
It's not simply a matter of people (or "prophets") being "wrong". And I certainly don't have any animosity towards a "Jesus" or Mohammad, or Buddha, or any other supposed seer or holyman. I simply don't hold to an a-priori assumption of their validity. If there's some sort of evidence of their supernatural insights, I'd be happy to look at that.
But in the case of Jesus and The Bible, I don't find any such evidence. In fact there's ample evidence to the contrary. And so, I've abandoned the search. I'm not going to spend a lot of time at Ron Popeil's house looking for the cure for cancer, and I'm not going to spend it trying to figure out "What Jesus Would Do" with my life. Why would I?
And as far as Christianity shaping history, don't you think it's as likely due to the fact that the country with the biggest army adopted it as anything else? Sposin' Constantine had become a Scientologist? Creepy, huh?
quote: I wonder what it is about Christianity, and maybe religion in general, that appeals to the best in people.
Religion can also appeal to the worst in people too. Look at the countless wars, persecutions and suffering it has created. This does need to be balanced against the good.
Is that because my keen insight has undermined your fragile theology and you're laid low and utterly distraught? Or is it because my reasoning is so banal and insipid that it didn't warrant replying?
I intended to answer, but then I got distracted, and the moment seemed to pass. I apologize.
Here goes.
The Santa analogy is fine, if that's who you aspire to be. But you don't. You just trivialize Christ by comparing him to Santa. I think it's apples and oranges and a horse of a different color.
As far as the wisdom found in the Bible, you seem to have adopted Wierwille's maxim that it's either all God's Word or none of it is, and if it's wrong in one place, the whole thing falls apart. I'm not ready to reject the entire thing simply because Wierwille happened to offer a nutty interpretation, but, having said that, I also don't have any more patience than you do in ferreting out the little morsels of wisdom that might be found amid all the hyperbole. However, I am grateful for those little pieces of miracles, and moments of faith that occasionally come my way.
Nothing banal or insipid about your post. I appreciate your input. Thanks.
So what do you have planned for tomorrow? Who's cooking the feast?
obviously you two(George Aar & laleo) know each other.
Happy ThanksGiving
One 6ix lb BUTTERBALL Whole Breast of Young Turkey (with ribs) and butter beans and brown gravey and butter & bisquits cornbread melt in your mouth & stove top all the stuffing
Nah, I don't think my reasonings have got much of anything to do with Wierwille anymore. I've kinda returned to my pre-TWI mindset, which was pretty rabidly agnostic (is there such a thing?).
My default premise with regards to any holy writ, is "why should I?" If there's no real evidence that it's anything but what it's critics have always said it was, i.e. a bunch a fairy tales and myths sprinkled with a few worthwhile old sayings - why bother?
In contrast, if there was some real, conclusive proof that there really were all sorts of divine prophecies, incredible encryptions, and irrefutable godly wisdom contained in The Bible, well that would be a starting point. A reason for looking further.
But, sadly, such does not seem to be the case.
So I'm content filling my head with "worldly" wisdom - well, maybe not "filling", but adding some in every now and then.
Not much happening tomorrow. Suzie's out of town, my girl is going off to dinner at her boyfriend's folks (she's in love). So that leaves me here with the boy child. I guess we'll have dinner at my sister's place (not my favorite).
Too bad, Thanksgiving's about the only holiday I really like, and it's not shaping up too good. Ah well, we're still breathing.
Still much to be thankful for ( I wonder to who?)...
Well, George, if there is such a thing as a rabid agnostic, I think you're it.
In answer to, Why should I? and, Why bother? I tend to wonder what it is about the heavens that has caused man, from the time of creation, to fall to his knees in fear and amazement. I don't think it's so much an appeal to reason that propels people toward spirituality, but the longing for something more meaningful. A long time ago, my husband was watching a movie when I walked into the room to get something. I don't know what the movie was about, but I walked into a dialogue that was so filled with yearning, I had to stop and watch. A younger male character was beseeching an older male character, somewhere in the middle of a desert, it looked like. I don't know what the crisis was all about, but the actor managed to perfectly express a universal discontent that would likely never be satisfied. I didn't stick around long enough to know how the older (paternal?) character responded, but I saw enough to recognize the script. Most likely the older character answered with some combination of empathy, and his own resignation to a perpetual unknowing, while the younger character was left to navigate his own way through the usual assortment of cosmic betrayals, and tenacious hopes. Anyway, those are the type of stories that make up the Bible, from what I can tell.
My default premise with regards to any holy writ, is "why should I?" If there's no real evidence that it's anything but what it's critics have always said it was, i.e. a bunch a fairy tales and myths sprinkled with a few worthwhile old sayings - why bother?
Hey George, maybe you should question the critics' motives. It could be they have an agenda.
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Knuckles
Thanks to you, I am now familiar with his article entitled, "Christian reflections in a time of war". I thought it was honest and thought provoking. His arguments are a refeshing departure from the politics of the "Christian right".
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George Aar
I've only read through an article of his and perused his site a little, but I think I get the general drift.
My main question would be:
Why cleave to Christianity at all?
He doesn't seem to spend an awful lot of time trying to make biblical proofs from scripture or draw lessons from the Bible as to how to act today. He strikes me as a rather typical Unitarian.
Given that there is scant evidence that there ever even was a man named "Jesus of Nazareth" that performed wonderful miracles and made a couple of feel-good sermons, doesn't some attempt to "follow" after him and try to imitate his actions ring just a little bit hollow?(WWJD?) Why the pretense of "Christianity" at all? Why not just formulate a workable philosophy from the voluminous amount of treatises (sp?) that are available? Or, better yet, figure out a workable system of ethics for yourself?
The idea that a cobbled together volume of disparate stories and laws, put together by a bunch of superstitious geeks of the 4th century (an age noted for it's enlightenment?) should somehow command our unquestioned obeisance, strikes me as way more than absurd.
Just what is it about THE BIBLE that commands respect and veneration anyway? Is it really that compelling a work? Viewed from a little more substantial of a distance than I had in WayWorld, I would say "no"...
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laleo
Knuckles: I'm working my way through his dialogue with Chuck Colson about the evils of postmodernism, but I haven't finished it yet. I haven't made it to the article you mentioned. What was honest, thought-provoking, and refreshing about it?
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laleo
Well, George, speaking of treatises, you should know better than to ask me any hypothetical questions, because you're going to get a treatise in return. And since I don't really know the answers, that means I'm going to take up that much more space with an attempt to answer by asking you a few hypotheticals in return. Feel free to answer. I'm interested in hearing your perspective, if you care to offer it.
Your questions (though not in the order that you posed them):
Given that there is scant evidence that there ever even was a man named "Jesus of Nazareth" that performed wonderful miracles and made a couple of feel-good sermons, doesn't some attempt to "follow" after him and try to imitate his actions ring just a little bit hollow?(WWJD?)
Hollow? Only when the answer to the question (WWJD?) is imposed. Otherwise, I think it's good and healthy to have role models. Sometimes we get to the point in life when old coping methods don't work, when whatever shelter we've built for ourselves no longer protects us from the elements. It's not that we're necessarily trying to find our path in the midst of a raging thunderstorm, so cold and wet and stunned that we can't see far enough in front of us to have any sense of which direction might lead us out (which would probably be the conditions that bring on the crisis conversion so many religious writers seem to experience). More often, life is just misty and gray, and during those times, a role model comes in handy. Maybe not Jesus, if he offends you. But when you're faced with a frustrating job, or an angry spouse, or demanding children, or any myriad of life's annoyances, I think it helps to ask: What would Confucius say? Or, What would a caring father or a loving mother do now? Or, What would Buddha think? Most of those people are ideals rather than reality, but they help to anchor us, don’t you think?
Why not just formulate a workable philosophy from the voluminous amount of treatises (sp?) that are available? Or, better yet, figure out a workable system of ethics for yourself?
Not a bad idea. But most of those philosophers are way over my head, losing me in their tautological truisms and logical syllogisms. I don’t much care about categorical prepositions, or if A is not A, fascinating though it all is. And the study of ethics (which, thankfully, is pragmatic enough for my feeble brain to comprehend) doesn't generally concern itself with hope and joy and forgiveness. As helpful as it is to have a yardstick to go by to measure the rightness or wrongness of an action, it doesn't measure the heart.
(an age noted for it's enlightenment?)
I don't know if you read, followed, or posted on that thread by RG and catcup on forgiveness, but as I read along, I thought it was a case study in miscommunication, GreaseSpot dynamics, and revenge. From the Vedas to Moses to the Tao to Martin Luther King, Jr. -- any religious leader or religious writing with any credibility, any longevity, extols the virtue of forgiveness. They even require it. Why? Is it because they're all so ignorant and superstitious that they don't know the value of vindictiveness and sorrow? Or did those ancient people have a map to the soul long before there was such a thing as science? Are they really so wrong when it comes to human motivations and longings?
Just what is it about THE BIBLE that commands respect and veneration anyway? Is it really that compelling a work?
When you think about how much influence it's had in shaping the world, I'd have to say, Yes, although my interest in it has waned. I'm not up for any Bible studies. At least not yet.
Why cleave to Christianity at all?
I don't know.
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George Aar
Laleo,
But why do we need to personify sound ethics?
If I say I always try to be very giving because I always ask myself "What would Santa Claus do?", does that make the concept anymore credible? I wouldn't think so.
Personally I think forgiveness is a good attribute to have simply for one's own well being. Vengence is corrosive to your mental health. And I'm sure I'm not the first one to have figured that out. And the fact that that idea was written down many thousands of years ago doesn't surprise me much. But it also doesn't lend any credibility to the supposed "wisdom" propounded elsewhere in the book, because the rest of the book may well have been written by someone else. So the idea that there are some sound "truths" propounded in the Bible don't necessarily mitigate all the B.S. that's in there as well.
It's not simply a matter of people (or "prophets") being "wrong". And I certainly don't have any animosity towards a "Jesus" or Mohammad, or Buddha, or any other supposed seer or holyman. I simply don't hold to an a-priori assumption of their validity. If there's some sort of evidence of their supernatural insights, I'd be happy to look at that.
But in the case of Jesus and The Bible, I don't find any such evidence. In fact there's ample evidence to the contrary. And so, I've abandoned the search. I'm not going to spend a lot of time at Ron Popeil's house looking for the cure for cancer, and I'm not going to spend it trying to figure out "What Jesus Would Do" with my life. Why would I?
And as far as Christianity shaping history, don't you think it's as likely due to the fact that the country with the biggest army adopted it as anything else? Sposin' Constantine had become a Scientologist? Creepy, huh?
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Trefor Heywood
laleo:
Religion can also appeal to the worst in people too. Look at the countless wars, persecutions and suffering it has created. This does need to be balanced against the good.
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Kit Sober
Not just past wars:
Christians claim a most bloody war (blood up to the haunches of the horses on the battlefield, etc.) as part of their "hope."
World Trade Center fall is pale in comparison to what some Christians are looking forward to.
(I'm included here.)
Kit
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George Aar
Laleo,
I'm concerned. You haven't responded.
Is that because my keen insight has undermined your fragile theology and you're laid low and utterly distraught? Or is it because my reasoning is so banal and insipid that it didn't warrant replying?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
conclusion to the New Kind of Christian trilogy. Its tentative title is
THE LAST WORD AND THE WORD AFTER THAT.
Many of you have been asking about it - it's come along
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laleo
George: That was really funny. I needed a laugh.
I intended to answer, but then I got distracted, and the moment seemed to pass. I apologize.
Here goes.
The Santa analogy is fine, if that's who you aspire to be. But you don't. You just trivialize Christ by comparing him to Santa. I think it's apples and oranges and a horse of a different color.
As far as the wisdom found in the Bible, you seem to have adopted Wierwille's maxim that it's either all God's Word or none of it is, and if it's wrong in one place, the whole thing falls apart. I'm not ready to reject the entire thing simply because Wierwille happened to offer a nutty interpretation, but, having said that, I also don't have any more patience than you do in ferreting out the little morsels of wisdom that might be found amid all the hyperbole. However, I am grateful for those little pieces of miracles, and moments of faith that occasionally come my way.
Nothing banal or insipid about your post. I appreciate your input. Thanks.
So what do you have planned for tomorrow? Who's cooking the feast?
Happy Thanksgiving.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
obviously you two(George Aar & laleo) know each other.
Happy ThanksGiving
One 6ix lb BUTTERBALL Whole Breast of Young Turkey (with ribs) and butter beans and brown gravey and butter & bisquits cornbread melt in your mouth & stove top all the stuffing
and so on
aspera
&ad astra per aspera
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George Aar
Nah, I don't think my reasonings have got much of anything to do with Wierwille anymore. I've kinda returned to my pre-TWI mindset, which was pretty rabidly agnostic (is there such a thing?).
My default premise with regards to any holy writ, is "why should I?" If there's no real evidence that it's anything but what it's critics have always said it was, i.e. a bunch a fairy tales and myths sprinkled with a few worthwhile old sayings - why bother?
In contrast, if there was some real, conclusive proof that there really were all sorts of divine prophecies, incredible encryptions, and irrefutable godly wisdom contained in The Bible, well that would be a starting point. A reason for looking further.
But, sadly, such does not seem to be the case.
So I'm content filling my head with "worldly" wisdom - well, maybe not "filling", but adding some in every now and then.
Not much happening tomorrow. Suzie's out of town, my girl is going off to dinner at her boyfriend's folks (she's in love). So that leaves me here with the boy child. I guess we'll have dinner at my sister's place (not my favorite).
Too bad, Thanksgiving's about the only holiday I really like, and it's not shaping up too good. Ah well, we're still breathing.
Still much to be thankful for ( I wonder to who?)...
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laleo
Well, George, if there is such a thing as a rabid agnostic, I think you're it.
In answer to, Why should I? and, Why bother? I tend to wonder what it is about the heavens that has caused man, from the time of creation, to fall to his knees in fear and amazement. I don't think it's so much an appeal to reason that propels people toward spirituality, but the longing for something more meaningful. A long time ago, my husband was watching a movie when I walked into the room to get something. I don't know what the movie was about, but I walked into a dialogue that was so filled with yearning, I had to stop and watch. A younger male character was beseeching an older male character, somewhere in the middle of a desert, it looked like. I don't know what the crisis was all about, but the actor managed to perfectly express a universal discontent that would likely never be satisfied. I didn't stick around long enough to know how the older (paternal?) character responded, but I saw enough to recognize the script. Most likely the older character answered with some combination of empathy, and his own resignation to a perpetual unknowing, while the younger character was left to navigate his own way through the usual assortment of cosmic betrayals, and tenacious hopes. Anyway, those are the type of stories that make up the Bible, from what I can tell.
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def59
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