...Not only that, but Wierwille PROMISED US that we would always be welcome at twi hdqrts! This is the reason that many gave their money. It may not be in writing, but there were literally thousands who heard him say it.
If twi has changed their minds about this, we should be entitled to a REFUND of our cash.
I am one of the many who heard VPW him say this as well. Legally it may be private property but we all know that it is not right for them to have such restrictions. I would never have contributed as much money and labor if I knew that it was all lies. I also agree with what HCW wrote in the other thread concerning this issue. Some of us did not leave TWI but were unjustly kicked out and never invited back.
I have a friend, Donnie F who is buried in the Way Woods. He was an employee for years and we fellowshipped almost daily during the last few years of his life. We shared a lot and talked a lot and laughed a lot.
I would like to stop by and say hi to Donnie some afternoon when I am in the area and maybe even bring some of the soil from the Way Woods back home to Becky and the boys or snap a few photos for them. I will do so...one way or another. Donnie would definitely get a kick out of it.
Apparently nothing vee pee said was worth a damn. I wonder why the TWIts continue to trust those who have followed him since they aren't even trying or pretending to keep any of his promises..... :huh:
Mat 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
The fact that all this is REALLY about is a daughter visiting her father's gravesite is precisely why that is all it really SHOULD be about. TWI administration knows that.
The administration of TWI is well aware of the fact that it was VPW's heart that The Way Woods NEVER close and that the campfire area and the House of His Healing presence (the small cabin in "the middle") be available and accessible to ANY believer 24/7 - 365.
TWI administration is well aware of the fact that this was not only VPW's "heart" but it was his specific decree that it be so.
TWI administration is well aware that VPW echoed this sentiment every year the night before ROA opened in a ceremony that to him was the highlight of every ministry year. Every year VP would lead a prayer time in the woods around the campfire area where he personally prayed for each and every one of you. He never failed to mention the remains of those buried there and how it was those sacred remains that made that such a sacred place. The most sacred and hallowed place on the grounds of The Way International. It was his personal desire that EVERY believer, although it was a logistical impossibility to, visit and spend time in The House of His Healing Presence. He wanted it open so that at any time during the year people could just drive by and stop in and have personal and PRIVATE time with God there.
He ordered that it be so.
LCM knows that. Doug MacMullen knows that too.
I am well aware, thank you, of all of the reasons TWI has to protect their property. In fact, I personally helped Doug M. to teach and train TWI's security folk in some martial arts hand to hand techiques to subdue people. I was even part of Doug's personal security team during opening ceremony at ROA and other major events at HQ when we'd have the huge crouds there. I'm also personally responsible for convicting people of vandalism to TWI property as I shot evidence photos that we provided to police. I even found a knife that had "dissapeared" when a suspect was apprehended after bending flagpoles down Wierwille Rd. Believers had said the guy brandished a knife when they confronted him to stop, but when bless patrol snagged the guy no knife was in his possession.
I found it, shot photos of it. It had his prints on it, he was arressted, etc.
I'm also aware of MAJOR security issues that have occurred at TWI. Like the time we got a report that there was a bomb on a timer somewhere in the ROA campground. It was supposedly large enough to put a huge crater there and we had a short time before the bomb went off.....
Like I said, I'm well aware of the threats to TWI.
Do I live there? Yes I did. Not now, of course. I do, however, live in Ohio where, according to State Law, I can be jailed for marrying, my now X-wife. Consumating my marriage is illegal in Ohio. The lawmakers pick and choose which laws they will and will not enforce, prosecute, change or let lie dormant. I actually came into compliance with Ohio law the moment my divorce came final.
I can't name a single person denied access to the burial ground, just one who was arrested and hauled off to jail in handcuffs for visiting his loved one buried there... because he didn't ask.
TWI administration. Specifcally Rosalie Rivenbark has specific actual knowledge of the fact that VPW specifically encouraged people to visit the campfire area there... often. VP made a huge deal out of it. Doug was there, Rosalie, LCM, Harve, Lohn Linder, John Reynolds, basically ALL of them, except some of these "new guys" more recently installed into the major director level positions who weren't there on staff with us while VP was alive. I was there too. It was my job to be there, taking pictures for the TWI historical files.
Yes, of course, were it MY personal property, I could handle it as I saw fit. I see this as a which came first the cart or the horse kinda thing. Doug M. wasn't trying to provoke a confrontation with them, THEY, laid down a gauntlet, so to speak, by saying, "No. YOU are not "welcome at the way." They were more than happy to have their attorneys scour Ohio law to find anything they can use to support their position.
It is a dispicable manipulation on their part. As it says in another thread here at the Cafe. When it comes to TWI, its all about control.
A counterfeit, to be successful, MUST have elements of "truth" inherent in it. Otherwise it could NEVER fool anyone.
LG. The innies "in the know" must be ROFL'ing at the fact that they have someone like YOU supporting their "rights."
Of course Sami took the high road when she bottomlined it and was simply willing to "pay the price" for what was really important. Again my hat is off to her. The fact that she "uchered" them still doesn't mean they are "right" in creating the situation. My comments on this are in regard to my opinion of what THEY did.
I would like to stop by and say hi to Donnie some afternoon when I am in the area and maybe even bring some of the soil from the Way Woods back home to Becky and the boys or snap a few photos for them. I will do so...one way or another. Donnie would definitely get a kick out of it.
He sure would! He's probably tell you that the best way to get away with it would be to head north on highway 29 and hang a left onto Botkins Road when you're approaching TWI's billboard. Go one mile west on Botkins Rd to Shelby County Rd and go right onto Shelby Co. Rd. About a mile up Shelby Co. Rd. you will see the Auditorium on your right. Go right onto Wierwille Rd and hang a right on the first road that leads into the Woods. follow it around to where youre near the campfire area. Hop out, scoot over the the area, respectfully grab a spade full of soil. You can say a nice prayer and be back to your car before security can get down there.
Unless they happen to be in the OSC parking lotor sitting on one of the ROA access roads. In that case you can just drive by them, heading east on Wierwille Rd, cause you'll see them as you approach or turn onto Wierwille.
I'm just saying that Donnie would probably think it is so rediculous that they want to keep you out that he'd go in anyway.
If I could spell that giggle thing he used to do, I'd insert one here.
I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I heard it too directly from the man whom they revere as their "father in the word". And Donnie knew it as well. They dishonor him and others.
TWI has the property given and maintained from people whom assumed it would always be for public use.
TWI could not have built that place without the wierwille family giving their home and farm....us giving our money to buy the materials for the buildings and us providing the physical labor to erect them.
HQ was given, built and maintained with funds of people who were told that it was to be used for the body of believers.
100`s of thousands of people for decades ......we built it believing that we were always going to be welcome....You have a handfull of people who siezed control of the assets.....people who then threw out any and all who remembered the promises and the heart behind it....
Now they have convinced people that it is TWI`s RIGHT to allow or deny access to that which we have spent our lives building.....bah....that is the bitterest pill of all..
We are so gratefull to twi for this stippend...this crumb....that we convince ourselves that it really isn`t so bad ...it is quite reasonable....and after all it IS twi`s right...
Bahhhh....it is NOT all right, it is groveling to get what we want from those who stole it....and in doing so, WE validate twi`s power and control yet again.....
The church up the hill and cemetary is private property....they would never deny anybody access to the facilities when they had services...and they would NEVER deny anybody... members or not acess to the cemetary...GEEEEZE it is common decency and courtesy...and yet we somehow seem that twi can draw a pass on tthe decency, courtesy and respect due people....and even manage to convince ourselves that twi`s love of power and control is some how understandible and acceptible....auuugh
I would love to take my children to walk the grounds that their mother and father built...show with pride what we accomplished in our youth....have them experience the fun of a lunch with a whole room full of people who loved God and each other...
The whole place radiated what could be accomplished by God and people who loved him....I was so proud to bring my parents to roa and show them what WE had accoplished...what was *ours*
Instead it is now deemed *private property* owned and controlled by a few people .....and we are expected to kiss their rosey red arses in order to have access to that which we gave.
As I understand it, we are not even allowed to go to a sns..... imagine if vp and the founders had an inkling that the auditorium that we built was only to be utilized by a preselected few people each sunday?
Imagine if the founders saw a day that armed security would be keeping the run of the mill believers away from hq, the way woods, the fountain of living waters.....tc`s ordered to keep folks away from fellowships.. denying people access to teaching materials ...classes, fellowships and family members away from each other???
SUUUUUUUUUUURE we might have access to these things *IF* we jump through the right hoops, *IF* we contribute enough tithe..*IF* we write enough letters grovel and kiss the apropriate a$$e$...even then...you might not be thin enough or have enough teeth, or have health issues that might contaminate the rest of the believers....
Imagine if they knew that their children and grandchildren would have to ask permission to have access to the mother or the graves of their parents???
There are folks who spent their own money and built home(s?) on the property that have had those taken.....the chalet we built for our use was taken....
Apparently nothing vee pee said was worth a damn. I wonder why the TWIts continue to trust those who have followed him since they aren't even trying or pretending to keep any of his promises.....
It's not like what he said was worth a damn when he was alive. He'd say stuff and then not stick to it. Believe me he only said stuff like that because he felt it at the time. If he'd changed his mind he'd have changed the rule - regardless of what he'd said previously.
Remember it was he who instituted the armed security force. Like a church really needs it's own cops.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Not only that, but Wierwille PROMISED US that we would always be welcome at twi hdqrts! This is the reason that many gave their money. It may not be in writing, but there were literally thousands who heard him say it.
If twi has changed their minds about this, we should be entitled to a REFUND of our cash.
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igotout
I am one of the many who heard VPW him say this as well. Legally it may be private property but we all know that it is not right for them to have such restrictions. I would never have contributed as much money and labor if I knew that it was all lies. I also agree with what HCW wrote in the other thread concerning this issue. Some of us did not leave TWI but were unjustly kicked out and never invited back.
I have a friend, Donnie F who is buried in the Way Woods. He was an employee for years and we fellowshipped almost daily during the last few years of his life. We shared a lot and talked a lot and laughed a lot.
I would like to stop by and say hi to Donnie some afternoon when I am in the area and maybe even bring some of the soil from the Way Woods back home to Becky and the boys or snap a few photos for them. I will do so...one way or another. Donnie would definitely get a kick out of it.
Who knows, maybe I already have.
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Belle
Apparently nothing vee pee said was worth a damn. I wonder why the TWIts continue to trust those who have followed him since they aren't even trying or pretending to keep any of his promises..... :huh:
Mat 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
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HCW
The fact that all this is REALLY about is a daughter visiting her father's gravesite is precisely why that is all it really SHOULD be about. TWI administration knows that.
The administration of TWI is well aware of the fact that it was VPW's heart that The Way Woods NEVER close and that the campfire area and the House of His Healing presence (the small cabin in "the middle") be available and accessible to ANY believer 24/7 - 365.
TWI administration is well aware of the fact that this was not only VPW's "heart" but it was his specific decree that it be so.
TWI administration is well aware that VPW echoed this sentiment every year the night before ROA opened in a ceremony that to him was the highlight of every ministry year. Every year VP would lead a prayer time in the woods around the campfire area where he personally prayed for each and every one of you. He never failed to mention the remains of those buried there and how it was those sacred remains that made that such a sacred place. The most sacred and hallowed place on the grounds of The Way International. It was his personal desire that EVERY believer, although it was a logistical impossibility to, visit and spend time in The House of His Healing Presence. He wanted it open so that at any time during the year people could just drive by and stop in and have personal and PRIVATE time with God there.
He ordered that it be so.
LCM knows that. Doug MacMullen knows that too.
I am well aware, thank you, of all of the reasons TWI has to protect their property. In fact, I personally helped Doug M. to teach and train TWI's security folk in some martial arts hand to hand techiques to subdue people. I was even part of Doug's personal security team during opening ceremony at ROA and other major events at HQ when we'd have the huge crouds there. I'm also personally responsible for convicting people of vandalism to TWI property as I shot evidence photos that we provided to police. I even found a knife that had "dissapeared" when a suspect was apprehended after bending flagpoles down Wierwille Rd. Believers had said the guy brandished a knife when they confronted him to stop, but when bless patrol snagged the guy no knife was in his possession.
I found it, shot photos of it. It had his prints on it, he was arressted, etc.
I'm also aware of MAJOR security issues that have occurred at TWI. Like the time we got a report that there was a bomb on a timer somewhere in the ROA campground. It was supposedly large enough to put a huge crater there and we had a short time before the bomb went off.....
Like I said, I'm well aware of the threats to TWI.
Do I live there? Yes I did. Not now, of course. I do, however, live in Ohio where, according to State Law, I can be jailed for marrying, my now X-wife. Consumating my marriage is illegal in Ohio. The lawmakers pick and choose which laws they will and will not enforce, prosecute, change or let lie dormant. I actually came into compliance with Ohio law the moment my divorce came final.
I can't name a single person denied access to the burial ground, just one who was arrested and hauled off to jail in handcuffs for visiting his loved one buried there... because he didn't ask.
TWI administration. Specifcally Rosalie Rivenbark has specific actual knowledge of the fact that VPW specifically encouraged people to visit the campfire area there... often. VP made a huge deal out of it. Doug was there, Rosalie, LCM, Harve, Lohn Linder, John Reynolds, basically ALL of them, except some of these "new guys" more recently installed into the major director level positions who weren't there on staff with us while VP was alive. I was there too. It was my job to be there, taking pictures for the TWI historical files.
Yes, of course, were it MY personal property, I could handle it as I saw fit. I see this as a which came first the cart or the horse kinda thing. Doug M. wasn't trying to provoke a confrontation with them, THEY, laid down a gauntlet, so to speak, by saying, "No. YOU are not "welcome at the way." They were more than happy to have their attorneys scour Ohio law to find anything they can use to support their position.
It is a dispicable manipulation on their part. As it says in another thread here at the Cafe. When it comes to TWI, its all about control.
A counterfeit, to be successful, MUST have elements of "truth" inherent in it. Otherwise it could NEVER fool anyone.
LG. The innies "in the know" must be ROFL'ing at the fact that they have someone like YOU supporting their "rights."
Of course Sami took the high road when she bottomlined it and was simply willing to "pay the price" for what was really important. Again my hat is off to her. The fact that she "uchered" them still doesn't mean they are "right" in creating the situation. My comments on this are in regard to my opinion of what THEY did.
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HCW
He sure would! He's probably tell you that the best way to get away with it would be to head north on highway 29 and hang a left onto Botkins Road when you're approaching TWI's billboard. Go one mile west on Botkins Rd to Shelby County Rd and go right onto Shelby Co. Rd. About a mile up Shelby Co. Rd. you will see the Auditorium on your right. Go right onto Wierwille Rd and hang a right on the first road that leads into the Woods. follow it around to where youre near the campfire area. Hop out, scoot over the the area, respectfully grab a spade full of soil. You can say a nice prayer and be back to your car before security can get down there.
Unless they happen to be in the OSC parking lotor sitting on one of the ROA access roads. In that case you can just drive by them, heading east on Wierwille Rd, cause you'll see them as you approach or turn onto Wierwille.
I'm just saying that Donnie would probably think it is so rediculous that they want to keep you out that he'd go in anyway.
If I could spell that giggle thing he used to do, I'd insert one here.
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igotout
Shhhh!
I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I heard it too directly from the man whom they revere as their "father in the word". And Donnie knew it as well. They dishonor him and others.
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rascal
TWI has the property given and maintained from people whom assumed it would always be for public use.
TWI could not have built that place without the wierwille family giving their home and farm....us giving our money to buy the materials for the buildings and us providing the physical labor to erect them.
HQ was given, built and maintained with funds of people who were told that it was to be used for the body of believers.
100`s of thousands of people for decades ......we built it believing that we were always going to be welcome....You have a handfull of people who siezed control of the assets.....people who then threw out any and all who remembered the promises and the heart behind it....
Now they have convinced people that it is TWI`s RIGHT to allow or deny access to that which we have spent our lives building.....bah....that is the bitterest pill of all..
We are so gratefull to twi for this stippend...this crumb....that we convince ourselves that it really isn`t so bad ...it is quite reasonable....and after all it IS twi`s right...
Bahhhh....it is NOT all right, it is groveling to get what we want from those who stole it....and in doing so, WE validate twi`s power and control yet again.....
The church up the hill and cemetary is private property....they would never deny anybody access to the facilities when they had services...and they would NEVER deny anybody... members or not acess to the cemetary...GEEEEZE it is common decency and courtesy...and yet we somehow seem that twi can draw a pass on tthe decency, courtesy and respect due people....and even manage to convince ourselves that twi`s love of power and control is some how understandible and acceptible....auuugh
I would love to take my children to walk the grounds that their mother and father built...show with pride what we accomplished in our youth....have them experience the fun of a lunch with a whole room full of people who loved God and each other...
The whole place radiated what could be accomplished by God and people who loved him....I was so proud to bring my parents to roa and show them what WE had accoplished...what was *ours*
Instead it is now deemed *private property* owned and controlled by a few people .....and we are expected to kiss their rosey red arses in order to have access to that which we gave.
As I understand it, we are not even allowed to go to a sns..... imagine if vp and the founders had an inkling that the auditorium that we built was only to be utilized by a preselected few people each sunday?
Imagine if the founders saw a day that armed security would be keeping the run of the mill believers away from hq, the way woods, the fountain of living waters.....tc`s ordered to keep folks away from fellowships.. denying people access to teaching materials ...classes, fellowships and family members away from each other???
SUUUUUUUUUUURE we might have access to these things *IF* we jump through the right hoops, *IF* we contribute enough tithe..*IF* we write enough letters grovel and kiss the apropriate a$$e$...even then...you might not be thin enough or have enough teeth, or have health issues that might contaminate the rest of the believers....
Imagine if they knew that their children and grandchildren would have to ask permission to have access to the mother or the graves of their parents???
There are folks who spent their own money and built home(s?) on the property that have had those taken.....the chalet we built for our use was taken....
TWI`s conduct is inexcusable.
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My3Cents
It's not like what he said was worth a damn when he was alive. He'd say stuff and then not stick to it. Believe me he only said stuff like that because he felt it at the time. If he'd changed his mind he'd have changed the rule - regardless of what he'd said previously.
Remember it was he who instituted the armed security force. Like a church really needs it's own cops.
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