Does anyone who was involved in TWI's clandestine military outreach recall these events?
Seems to me it would have been occurring when St*ve Axt**l USN was coordinating military outreach and singing about the 'Band of Gold.'
Also, perhaps Ltcdr. Don**d L** H*r*t*g, USN, could enlighten us?
He is in the Program Executive Office Cruise Missiles and Joint Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, abbreviated acronym PEOCU. In this position Lcdr. H*r*t*g has an office in the White House, and is apparently spends a significant amount of time there each weekday that he is not traveling.
Interesting. Spooky.
If you try to pull up the strikenet sites below, the sites open but close within ~ 1 second apparently due to being restricted military sites.
I don't know how much covert military outreach there was. At least during the time I was in, it was pretty much out in the open. Maybe it was hidden during the 70s, before my time. The bit about the nice, friendly, pretty WOW girls was pretty much true. The fact that they wanted to recruit military folks was true. The fact that the traditional religious folk were not happy, because TWI was a cult, was true. But covert? Naw. In fact, I didn't hesitate too much from mentioning it even during security investigations (you have to list your memberships and affiliations on the background investigation form) -- and it never prevented me from having a clearance (e.g., TS), indoctrinations (e.g., SCI, COMSEC, etc.), or access to any programs (e.g., if I told you I'd have to shoot you).
Just to keep things in perspective. Having said that, it may have been different during the '70s.
Predator Medium Altitude Endurance Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (PM-PS)
Commander
Naval Air Systems Command (Code 2.4.2.2.3) Bldg. 2272, Suite 256
47123 Buse Road Unit IPT, Patuxent River MD 20670-1547
(301) 757-5898 Fax: (301) 757-5955
E-mail address: LCDR_Donald_H**tig@peocu.navy.mil
What is the name of your program?
Predator Medium Altitude Endurance (MAE) Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV)
Give a description of this idea and how it fits in the program:
SOO Contracting is an extension of Alpha Contracting which involves the Government and the contractor
jointly developing the Statement of Work (SOW). SOO contracting entails issuing the RFP with a Statement of
Objectives (vice a SOW) which describes the objectives of the prospective contract. With the guidance of the
Statement of Objectives the contractor is requested to develop a SOW. Similar to Alpha Contracting, in which the
contractor and Government jointly develop the proposal, the contractor-prepared SOW is evaluated jointly by both
contractor and Government for revision/refinement and inclusion in the contract.
How is it innovative and creative?
Typically, the Government provides a SOW to the contractor as direction for developing the proposal.
Usually, several contentious issues emerge during the proposal preparation and negotiation contracting phases.
These issues arise as a result of differing interpretations of SOW language. Consequently, several iterations of
Government-contractor discussions are required to clarify each other’s position. With SOO Contracting, in contrast,
contentious issues are minimized (if not eliminated) because the SOW is jointly developed. As a result, there are
improved lines of communications and an improved proposal process.
How has this new improvement been applied?
SOO contracting is currently in process for two prospective contracts.
What were the results and lessons learned in developing this improvement?
Yet to be determined.
What other information would help another program evaluate its applicability towards their program?
The SOO contracting method is appropriate for both cost and fixed type contracts, however, it is best suited
for R&D efforts where specific definition of effort is uncertain. Having the contractor and Government jointly
develop the SOW is a communication tool that is beneficial for all proposed contracting efforts.
Obviously, the guy works in the program office for the Predator, or he did 7 years ago. He was a Lt Cmdr, the equivalent to an Army, AF, USMC Major. That would place him at somewhere between 7 and 14 years time in service (probably over 10). In an officer's career path, they generally get stuck in a desk job pushing papers around that level of experience. If he did good, chances are that he would go to a small unit (batallion level) command stint on his next assignment.
This document is the read-ahead for an acquisition reform conference, the type they have many times a year down in the Pentagon City/ Crystal City area. The tone of this document leads me to believe it was sort of a self-congratulatory conference where they were telling themselves how smart they were and how much money they've saved the Navy while, at the same time, making the Navy much more effective (yawn). There were a lot of conferences like that when they were self-affirming how smart they were in implementing Al Gore's re-inventing government measures. Your tax dollars at work.
There's no news here. Just that he was stationed at Pax River 7 years ago and shuffled paper. Sorry.
I guess what concers me is that here is a TWI innie, who as recently as a few months ago had an office in the White House, whether shuffling papers or tweaking his drone's gps, I don't know. The PEOCU is involved with unmanned global hawks and predator drones, such as the type that killed Sadam Hussein's two sons.
But how in the world does a cultic TWI innie get clearance to be in the White House several days per week? What kind of pro-TWI trash is he scattering about the White House? To the Home Land Security? To the Office of Faith-Based Communty Initiatives, so that his favorite cult can get our tax dollars? Scarry to me.
What connection, if any, does this person have to the late 70's nuclear concerns?
I guess what concers me is that here is a TWI innie, who as recently as a few months ago had an office in the White House, whether shuffling papers or tweaking his drone's gps, I don't know. The PEOCU is involved with unmanned global hawks and predator drones, such as the type that killed Sadam Hussein's two sons.
But how in the world does a cultic TWI innie get clearance to be in the White House several days per week? What kind of pro-TWI trash is he scattering about the White House? To the Home Land Security? To the Office of Faith-Based Communty Initiatives, so that his favorite cult can get our tax dollars? Scarry to me.
What connection, if any, does this person have to the late 70's nuclear concerns?
Well, I appreciate what you're saying here.
Keep in mind that, as an innie, I had a security clearance above Top Secret and dealt with all sorts of good stuff that I can't even come close to telling you about. Shoot, as a fairly fresh outie, I was doing counterterrorism...and part of counterterrorism was providing support to other agencies in dealing with domestic incidents (like white supremicist groups).
Galen, another poster here, was on a nuclear submarine -- as an innie.
Now, I can't speak for anybody else here, but when I was an innie and dealt with civilian TWI folks, I would simply not tell them the specifics of what I was dealing with in my job. And they respected that (equating it to the lockbox principle).
What you're saying is the equivalent to stating that a deeply committed Catholic should not be allowed to possess a clearance, because he might spill his guts during confession, or that he might have questions of whether to be loyal to the US or to the Vatican.
Like it or not, there is freedom of religion in this country. And that includes the freedom to belong to a group like TWI, the moonies, hare krishna, or to David Koresh's group. For the most part, the government respects that -- and, all in all, that is probably a good thing. In fact, the government is not even permitted to ask you about your religious preference when filling out a security clearance background investigation form anymore (my last update was in 2003, so that is the timeliness of my information).
Just because some (or even a plurality) of the leaders in an organization are corrupt and abusive, that gives nobody the right to tar everybody with that same brush. And, even in TWI, there were good people. I have not heard anybody say a bad word about Walter Cummins. Likewise with Joe Guarini. and quite a few others. That, in no way, excuses those who were bad. But it points out that people should be judged as people and not, automatically assumed to be wrong, just because they were in the same religion with somebody else who was wrong.
Just because some (or even a decent percentage) of the followers in an organization gave up their will to think for themselves and subjegated their thoughts and their souls to a theology that demanded blind obedience doesn't mean that everybody did. I know of NO military person in my time in TWI who would have ever considered compromising his military commitment because of TWI. Not to say that this didn't happen, but I sure didn't witness any of that. (At the time, I was rather envious of those people who were able to go WOW or able to go in the Way Corps , but I couldn't -- because I had made a commitment that prevented me from doing so. That commitment probably kept me from going off the deep end -- because part of that commitment kept me as a professional and prevented me from totally selling out to, what I believed at that time, God). There were onsie-twosie departures all the time through the late 70s and 80s. And I seem to recall a rather large departure of Way Corps, along with rank-and-file believers in 1989, after the "loyalty letter" came out. Truly brainwashed zombies wouldn't have been able to make themselves depart like that. [Note: that is not to say that everybody who stuck around after the loyalty letter was a brainwashed zombie...please don't take it that way, all I'm saying is that if the membership was totally brainwashed, they would have 100% completely done whatever they were told, no matter how outrageous it was]
I can't personally speak for anyody else who was military and TWI at the same time here, but I will tell you that I NEVER gave any classified information out nor was I asked. Had I been asked, I would have said no. Had the person asking pushed, it would have set up a conflict in me that would have resulted in my departure earlier than, in fact, happened. As I said, I can't personally speak for anybody else, but if I was to wager, I would wager that this would be the reaction of most.
All I'm saying is that when you're making a broad-brush statement like: <i>But how in the world does a cultic TWI innie get clearance to be in the White House several days per week? </i>, you are not only accusing somebody who you really don't know, you are also accusing a bunch of us who were <i>cultic TWI innies</i>, had high security clearances, and did not compromise our commitment to our country as a result of our religious affiliation at the time. Maybe you ought to re-think the words you used to make that statement.
"Just because some (or even a plurality) of the leaders in an organization are corrupt and abusive, that gives nobody the right to tar everybody with that same brush. And, even in TWI, there were good people."
(research from Southern Law Poverty Center Intelligence Report)
The Rise and Decline of the Patriots
With the planned execution of Timothy McVeigh, a movement that roiled the 1990s comes symbolically to a close
John Trochmann, a Militia of Montana leader who once claimed a following in the thousands, today leads a tiny organization that is derisively referred to as the "Mail Order Militia." Donald Beauregard, a Florida militiaman who asserted in 1995 that a map on a Trix cereal box revealed secret government plans, is now serving a five-year sentence for trying to blow up power stations. Jeff Randall, co-founder of an Alabama militia group and the man who embarrassed federal agents by exposing a racist event they’d attended, has left the "Patriot" movement and apologized.
More than seven years after it began, the so-called Patriot movement, characterized by gun-toting militiamen angry at the federal government, is a shadow of its former self. The scheduled May 16 execution of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh may well serve as a bookend to the militia phenomenon, marking the dying gasps of a movement that has dwindled away in favor of other groups.
In its latest annual count, the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Intelligence Project identified 194 antigovernment Patriot groups that were active in 2000 — a drop of almost 9 percent from the year before, and the fourth consecutive decline since the Patriot movement peaked with 858 groups in 1996. The count marked the lowest ebb of a movement that throughout much of the 1990s captured the attention of the nation — and which was shoved into the international limelight with the 1995 attack that left 168 people dead in Oklahoma City.
People have left the militia movement for a variety of reasons. They have gone home, disillusioned and tired of waiting for the revolution that never seems to come. They have been scared off, frightened by the arrests of thousands of comrades for engaging in illegal "common-law" court tactics, weapons violations and even terrorist plots. And they have, in great numbers, left the relatively non-racist Patriot world for the harder-line groups that now make up most of the radical right.
"Although militia activity continues at a low level, the antigovernment Patriot movement is running out of steam," said Joe Roy, director of the Intelligence Project. "But at the same time, racist and anti-Semitic hate groups have been growing, thanks to former militiamen and others who have joined up."
Less Outreach from a Harder Core
Patriot outreach has shrunk, too. Although there have been recent efforts to expand Patriot short-wave radio programming, the number of Patriot sites on the Internet — the principal propaganda venue for most Patriot groups — has plummeted. The Intelligence Project identified just 155 Patriot sites on the World Wide Web in early 2001, a drop of 41 percent from the 263 Web sites counted a year earlier.
What remains of the Patriot scene today is generally harder core, with an increasing number of groups influenced by the racist and anti-Semitic Christian Identity theology favored by some American neo-Nazi groups. Many others have embraced another radical theology, Christian Reconstructionism. Typical of declining movements, the Patriot world is also increasingly dominated by profiteers — men and women who play on the conspiracy theories that characterize Patriot thinking to rip off their supposed brethren in the movement.
The life stories of many well-known Patriots help illustrate the changing shape of the radical right (see "False Patriots," also in this issue). Linda Thompson, a Patriot who once called for an armed march on Washington, D.C., and created a key propaganda film about Waco, has disappeared into obscurity in North Carolina. J.J. Johnson, at one time the militias’ favorite African-American, now says he doesn’t want to be black any more; he’d rather be a rebel, and so has taken up with "pro-South" groups.
Behind the Fears
It would be easy to dismiss the Patriot movement, with its outlandish conspiracy theories and childish fascination with guns, as a collection of nuts, people lacking basic reasoning skills whose arguments were naïve at best. But that would be too easy. In fact, America’s militiamen embodied real grievances and fears.
In many ways, the movement represented an alienated and distrustful response to a rapidly changing world — a rejection of the vision of the post-Communist world that was summarized in then-President Bush’s "New World Order" speech in 1990. In the heartland, Americans were not so quick as their country’s elites to endorse the drawing together of economies, races and cultures that globalism represents. Instead, they saw globalism as robbing America of its independence and culture, and threatening farmers, industrial workers and others economically.
Their anger, aimed at the government and all international bodies, was seen both in the "Republican Revolution" of 1994 — when a large number of candidates were elected on explicitly antigovernment platforms — and in polls which showed that more than half of Americans saw the federal government as an imminent threat to their civil liberties. Governmental power in general was under attack.
In particular, many in the West and Midwest mightily resented attempts to impose gun control — few actions helped spur the militia movement more than the 1993 Brady Bill — and to regulate the environment. They were also deeply angered by international trade agreements that seemed to be facilitating the transfer of jobs from America to cheap Third World labor markets. And they were infuriated by two events that seemed to show how the federal government treated dissenters.
Government as Villain
The first was the 1992 federal siege of white supremacist Randy Weaver, whose wife and son were killed at their Ruby Ridge, Idaho, home. It was in response to this that extremists convened at a key meeting — the "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous," held in Estes Park, Colo. —and laid out the contours of the militia movement. But what really ignited the militia movement was the federal siege of the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas, which ended in a conflagration that left some 80 Davidians dead.
Consider the Oklahoma bombers. McVeigh, as he told the authors of the just-released book American Terrorist, was animated by Waco, and in fact blew up the federal building on the second anniversary of the fiery end of that standoff. McVeigh also had a foot in the neo-Nazi world, using the racist novel The Turner Diaries as the blueprint for his attack. Co-conspirator Terry Nichols, too, had deep roots in the radical right, renouncing his U.S. citizenship in 1992 and endorsing an array of Patriot theories first popularized by the racist Posse Comitatus in the 1980s.
Today, the state of the Patriot movement can be discerned in many ways. Patriot periodicals have almost all lost circulation. Former colleagues are finding themselves on opposite sides as some militias adopt Identity theology and others try to maintain a "moderate" image. Virtually every week, more people involved in the movement are sent to prison for crimes ranging from illegal gun possession to such common-law tactics as filing false property liens and passing fake checks. Official crackdowns have militiamen and other Patriots in constant fear of informers.
The Movement ‘Abandoned’
For years, Patriot heavyweights gathered twice a year in Shepherdsville, Ky., for the nearby Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot. Members of militia coalitions like the Third Continental Congress and the Southeastern States Alliance set up tents there and filled meeting halls. But divisions persisted and worsened. In the end, even the best-laid plans for pulling together a national or even regional coalition of Patriot groups could not survive the pettiness and power plays of the would-be rebels.
Thousands still attend the Kentucky gun events. But at the most recent "shoot," there was virtually no antigovernment sentiment on display other than a sticker on a backpack that proclaimed its owner a "Militia Sniper" — a sticker that may well have been meant as a rhetorical jab rather than a boast. In a similar way, what were once billed as Preparedness Expos — events where survivalist goods were sold to Patriots fearful of "Y2K" disasters — are seeing far fewer Patriots. Reflecting the change in audience, the fairs were recently renamed Lifeline Expos.
To some, it all amounts to a sad state of affairs.
Norm Olson, a Michigan gun shop owner who began one of the earliest and largest militias, was spurned recently when he offered to bring armed Patriots to help defend Indianapolis Baptist Temple (IBT), which was about to be seized by officials for refusing to pay withholding taxes (see p. 49). "All day long I’ve heard reports that the IBT was seized," Olson wrote bitterly after federal agents finally moved in last February. "This is not true. The IBT was not seized or taken, it was given away… .
t was abandoned by people who once swore that they would stand."
Clearly, the Patriot movement is not what it once was; in fact, this particular expression of the American radical right is almost certainly fizzling. But that does not mean that radical antigovernment sentiment is going away. Antigovernment ideology has been with the United States since its founding, and it is certain to remain a permanent fixture in our culture. The only question is precisely what form the antigovernment extremist right will take in the decades to come.
(remainder snipped)
The takeaway on this is that most of these people who were so deeply involved with all the conspiracy stuff were, for the most part, wannabes. When it came down to it, they abandoned ship when the going got too tough for them. But what characterized them in general was a feeling of powerlessness that they are able to overcome through believing in a conspiracy to explain their personal lack. You still haven't shown me that TWI, in the field of conspiracies, that is any more serious than that.
Did Wierwille spread conspiracy stuff? Of course. Did Wierwille teach it to people? Yup. Did people buy into it? Absolutely! Conspiracy theories are very compelling when you can't understand why things are the way they are. Did he stockpile weapons? Don't know, but in all likelihood yes...hunting weapons (show me some proof of .50 cal, RPG's, Claymores, and all the rest). Did he have people take survivalist training and have that kind of mentality? Sure. Absolutely. Again, it fits with his apocryphal vision [brought on, in large part, due to his Aryan theology, imho]. But did he stockpile heavy weapons? Prove it. Did he stockpile explosives? Prove it. Did he have terrorist plans for offensive operations? Prove it.
I used to fly in black helicopters (you know, the ones the conspiracy nuts are talking about all the time). A conspiracy nut is one who believes the helicopter is being driven by a pilot with a mind-control chip embedded in his brain and whose hands are being tracked by the Bilderbergers. He believes the helicopter is swooping down to get an unarmed patriot out of his home and take him to a re-education center. Well, I used to fly in them...
You want to tell me that Wierwille was a conspiracy nut? I will agree with you. You want to tell me that he tried to breed other conspiracy nuts through his teaching and practices? No problem.
A conspiracy-driven terrorist is one who will believe the same thing as the conspiracy nut, but will try to shoot down the helicopter to save his neighbor.
A plain-old terrorist is one who will use the conspiracy theory as his excuse to do damage and will try to encite the conspiracy nut into becoming a conspiracy-driven terrorist.
99.5% of conspiracy nuts are just that. .49% may be able to be turned into conspiracy-driven terrorists. .01% are just plain old terrorists.
I have not read anything credible here or anyplace else that would place Wierwille and TWI in any other category than that of the simple conspiracy nut.
My advice: if there's something there, great. But don't turn into a conspiracy nut through unraveling other conspiracy nuts. Said with all due respect, of course.
But how in the world does a cultic TWI innie get clearance to be in the White House several days per week? What kind of pro-TWI trash is he scattering about the White House? To the Home Land Security? To the Office of Faith-Based Communty Initiatives, so that his favorite cult can get our tax dollars? Scarry to me.
And Markomalley said...
Keep in mind that, as an innie, I had a security clearance above Top Secret and dealt with all sorts of good stuff that I can't even come close to telling you about. Shoot, as a fairly fresh outie, I was doing counterterrorism...and part of counterterrorism was providing support to other agencies in dealing with domestic incidents (like white supremicist groups).
Galen, another poster here, was on a nuclear submarine -- as an innie.
To throw in my 2 bits... I worked with tactical nuclear weapons in the Army, held an AEC "Q" clearance, and did engineering work on the security systems of 3 weapons labs and other sensitive facilities.
I never heard a word connecting TWI and nuclear weapons, and the issue never came up during my vetting for the various security clearances I've held.
I think it is *extremely* unlikely that anyone seriously considered getting their hands on a nuclear device. What the hell would they use it for? Holding a city hostage? Making a political statement? VPW had plenty of flaws, but I don't think he ever could have been a mass-murderer-terrorist. This is pure speculation, but all I can imagine is that someone read "Curve of Binding Energy" and made some remark about how easy it would be to get nuclear material. More likely is that someone just dropped a dime to make live a little more uncomfortable for VPW/TWI.
JK, Christian fundimentalists have their hands near the plutonium and have been inside weapons programs all over the country since the beginning. Given the vast array of Christian groups, it's unlikely that TWI would have been considered any particular risk. Pre-911, I don't think that religious involvement had any significance in whether a person could get a security clearance or not. I don't know how it works now.
I can't personally speak for anyody else who was military and TWI at the same time here, but I will tell you that I NEVER gave any classified information out nor was I asked. Had I been asked, I would have said no. Had the person asking pushed, it would have set up a conflict in me that would have resulted in my departure earlier than, in fact, happened. As I said, I can't personally speak for anybody else, but if I was to wager, I would wager that this would be the reaction of most.
______________
Mark, I appreciate your perspective as former military. This is helpful. The more ex-military that post, the better, so we can see the spectrum of opinions on these matters.
Nevertheless, one item you mentioned that concerns me is this. What if someone had become so internally conflicted in a given situation that he or she did release classified information or materials? Even if most military folks wouldn't have given in, it only takes ONE individual to cause a major situation.
I'm sure you have read the posts over the past several years where various individuals have said that they would have done ANYTHING that vpw or lcm requested, including homocide.
Now when this is put in the context of national security, personally, I find it disturbing that a 'heavily indoctrinated' TWI member apparently has top security clearance, is in the White House several days per week, and appears to have some management or command authority re PEOCU predator drones and global hawks. Maybe his next assignment will be nukes?
I am not personally familiar with many national or international level conspiracies. In fact the only one that comes to mind right now, at least, is TWI. TWI gladly co-opted medical, counseling, & legal professionals. To what degree was TWI involved in co-opting military professionals with a high security clearance?
Mark, I appreciate your perspective as former military. This is helpful. The more ex-military that post, the better, so we can see the spectrum of opinions on these matters.
Nevertheless, one item you mentioned that concerns me is this. What if someone had become so internally conflicted in a given situation that he or she did release classified information or materials? Even if most military folks wouldn't have given in, it only takes ONE individual to cause a major situation.
I'm sure you have read the posts over the past several years where various individuals have said that they would have done ANYTHING that vpw or lcm requested, including homocide.
Now when this is put in the context of national security, personally, I find it disturbing that a 'heavily indoctrinated' TWI member apparently has top security clearance, is in the White House several days per week, and appears to have some management or command authority re PEOCU predator drones and global hawks. Maybe his next assignment will be nukes?
I am not personally familiar with many national or international level conspiracies. In fact the only one that comes to mind right now, at least, is TWI. TWI gladly co-opted medical, counseling, & legal professionals. To what degree was TWI involved in co-opting military professionals with a high security clearance?
We need to have definitive answers.
Obviously, I cannot speak to literally everybody who was in the military and involved with TWI, nor can I speak to literally everybody who was in the military and was Jewish, or Catholic, or Baptist, or Wiccan, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or Atheist, or whatever. And it is entirely possible that a person who was from any of the above religions could commit espionage. I can think of people who were Jewish, and Catholic, and Baptist, and Muslim, and Atheist who have, in fact, committed espionage. Was their religious preference a factor in the espionage? Very possibly. I know in the case of Jonathan Pollard, he sold his information to an Israeli spy. I know in the case of Chaplain Yu (Muslim), he acted as a courier path between Al Qaeda detainees at Guantanamo and Al Qaeda contacts on the outside. The other cases that I am familiar with were done for other reasons, such as political and financial. Having said that, should Muslims be prohibted, because they are Muslim, from holding a clearance? How about Jews?
I don't know of a TWI person who has committed espionage. I also don't know of a buddhist who has. So are those groups beyond suspicion? Who knows...
I know of people affiliated with a certain denomination who will go into debt to pay offerings to the leadership of this denomination. Some of these people treat relics touched by the hand of the leaders as if they were talismans. They latch onto every word spoken by a leader within the denomination as if it came out of the mouth of God himself. Certain members of this denomination have made allegations of abuse. And so on. The denomination is not TWI. It is not Catholic. It is a fairly mainstream evangelical Protestant denomination. I don't want to offend, so I will leave the exact denomination name out of the discussion, because it is irrelevant. Because some within that denomination are that fanatic and that brainwashed should everybody who goes to church in that denomination be suspect? Because a few of the leaders of that denomination promulgate those beliefs among the faithful, should all the leaders be suspect?
One thing you need to realize is that the military has its own form of indoctrination and that this indoctrination is a lot more effective than TWI indoctrination ever was. The majority of people I have known in the military, particularly the majority who have made a career of it, have a degree of mental discipline and toughness that is not really the norm in the civilian community. Not that military people are at all superior or anything, but the day-to-day training that happens through years helps inculcate that in people. Face it, if a civilian screws up on the job, maybe a balance sheet is not right or a window is dirty or something else. If a person in the military (particularly those in certain specialities) screws up, somebody will die, a nuke will go off, a war will start, a $100 million plane will crash, etc. The norm for training the mind must be a lot tougher. Again, that's not to say that there aren't civilian occupations with this type of responsibility, but the amount of responsibility taken on by the military people is, on average, a lot more and, on average, comes a lot faster than with civilian counterparts.
You are going to have bad people everywhere. You are going to have vulnerable people everywhere. Put the two groups together and you are going to have problems everywhere. But that doesn't mean with everybody from that particular demographic.
What I'm saying is keep reviewing your telexes. Give me some proof of your allegations. My learned opinion of Wierwille was that he was a conspiracy nut. (See earlier definition) And that he spread that conspiracy nuttiness to his followers. And conspiracy nuts talk big...often without anything to back up the talk. But I'm willing to listen and learn.
I am absolutely happy to help analyze which of those telexes you choose to post or otherwise publish. And if I see something that is of note, I'm happy to show the connections that make it of note. If you can tell me about a TWI person who committed espionage with the recipient of that information being TWI, I might change my mind. IF you can show me some evidence that TWI was actively attempting to get national security information (about nukes or not) from its members, I'll be happy to evaluate it.
But the facts you've shown are as follows:
1. A WOW stated that he believed TWI was trying to build a bomb. This was refuted by another WOW.
2. Female WOWs were trying to recruit military folk for TWI.
3. A commissioned officer who was, at one point, running military outreach for TWI, was working in the program office at NAS Patuxent River MD that dealt with UAVs. (And, btw, that is a long way from the WH and is absolutely no guarantee that he ever possessed a Yankee White -- the level of access required for unescorted access to the WH)
Those FACTS don't tell me anything that even comes close to substantiating any allegation that I see you trying to build. Please, give some more FACTS.
JK, can you tell us how you became aware of these government files regarding a nuclear device? I'm wondering if you found out from someone inside TWI because they routinely submitted FOIA requests concerning themselves, or if maybe someone in the meda stumbled onto it.
Regarding the fact that TWI routinely requested their own FOIPA, I did not know this, but neither am I surprised.
In this stack of repetitious records that I have, there are 3 copies of a letter from LCM, on TWI letterhead, dated 30 May 1984, to the Dept. of Justice. The essence of the letter is that LCM was requesting that the FBI totally expunge its records regarding TWI in 4 categories: (i) use of weapons; (ii) misuse of funds; (iii) anti-Semitism; &, (iv) mind control.
The FBI responds by letter dated 13 June 1984, stating, "...There are no statuatory provision enabling an organization such as yours to make that kind of request. Consequently, we have no authority to expunge or amend FBI records pertaining to your organization..." JKH, Chief FOIPA Section, Records Management Division.
In this stack of repetitious records that I have, there are 3 copies of a letter from LCM, on TWI letterhead, dated 30 May 1984, to the Dept. of Justice. The essence of the letter is that LCM was requesting that the FBI totally expunge its records regarding TWI in 4 categories: (i) use of weapons; (ii) misuse of funds; (iii) anti-Semitism; &, (iv) mind control.
OK, now we're getting somewhere:
1) Use of weapons: TWI was widely reputed for having stockpiles of light weapons (small caliber rifles, shotguns, and the like). It would be reasonable to assume that the FBI would follow up on those suspicions to determine if there was any validity to them or not. Investigative records of that nature would be a reasonable thing to maintain. Once again, was there an illegal cache of weapons? Obviously the government was not able to locate one. Did they look? Maybe records to that fact would be in your stack of papers. If there aren't records, perhaps you could do another FOIA asking that specific question.
2) Misuse of funds. TWI lost, for a time, their tax exempt status. Records relating to that period would likewise be reasonable to maintain. There may have been fraud investigations conducted against TWI and appropriate people within TWI in connection with that loss of tax exempt status. To my knowledge, there was never any criminal prosecution against TWI or its board or its employees, so it would be reasonable to say that any issues that were connected to that were either determined to be a deficient accounting system that was non-compliant with IRS rules, negligence in accounting practices, or insufficient proof to assure conviction for any criminal fraud. Or a combination of the above. If you will recall, there were other religious organizations whose leadership were prosecuted as the result of fraud (e.g., Jim Bakker, etc.) -- this is not to say that I believe that TWI was not guilty of something, but rather that the government likely could not prove that acts were criminal. Perhaps information pertaining to that is in your stack of stuff. If not, you could FOIA the FBI and the IRS asking for records pertaining to TWI's loss of tax-exempt status. The Privacy Act doesn't include organizations, only individuals. So, with the exception of having the salaries of employees and board members, along with their social security numbers, redacted, you should be able to get plenty of information from a FOIA on that subject.
3) Anti-Semitism. We have enough witnesses on this board to demonstrate that anti-Semitic teaching went on during the 70s and 80s. Holocaust denial, etc. Unlike Germany, those beliefs are not illegal here. Thus, it is doubtful that the FBI would waste resources on an organization that simply taught those beliefs, because there would be no crime to prosecute. However, if there was indication of anti-Semitic activity (e.g., cross burnings, hate mail, threats, actual crimes) being committed by TWI or its followers, then it is possible that there could be some records existing on that subject. I have never heard of any of that type of activity from TWI, including on the Waydale board or this one. Not saying it didn't happen, but I just haven't seen it or heard about it (other than the teachings issue). A FOIA to the FBI and to other government agencies, including one to DOJ Hate Crimes unit and the US Attornies that cover the different locales (NK, Emporia, etc.), could provide a definitive answer one way or the other.
4) Mind Control. What statute does that cover?
Let me give you a little extract from the FBI's Law Enforcement Bulletin to show you their attitude about the subject:
Brainwashing
Brainwashing stands as the most common allegation leveled against NRMs. Even the existence of brainwashing, however, is debated fiercely among behavioral scientists.9 Clearly, in cases where movements physically coerce inductees (e.g., depriving members of food or preventing them from freely leaving), definite grounds exist for law enforcement concern. In the majority of instances, though, NRMs try to attract members through the same methods used by missionaries in mainstream churches or secular movements. NRM members may approach strangers or distribute pamphlets in the hope of enticing the uninitiated to attend a series of classes or lectures about the group's belief system. At these sessions, groups commonly hold extended meetings or prayer services during which they emphasize and repeat certain themes or messages.
Absent illegal activity, this process is entirely legitimate.
Critics should not apply the term
brainwashing
to the NRM missionary and conversion process simply because they do not approve of or understand the religion in question.
In light of this, it is highly unlikely that the FBI would maintain records on TWI discussing mind control, unless some other issue was involved, as well.
Let me quote myself with something I said a bit earlier:
The takeaway on this is that most of these people who were so deeply involved with all the conspiracy stuff were, for the most part, wannabes. When it came down to it, they abandoned ship when the going got too tough for them. But what characterized them in general was a feeling of powerlessness that they are able to overcome through believing in a conspiracy to explain their personal lack. You still haven't shown me that TWI, in the field of conspiracies, that is any more serious than that.
I really believe that this is the extent of the TWI inolvement with this type of stuff. Troubling? Sure. Illegal? You'd have to prove that to me.
On either the Snapping or Cults thread, someone mentioned that they thought the reason the IRS finally pulled their multi-year operation off of TWI HQ grounds was that TWI gave the IRS the names of some DFACs {dropped from active corps} so that the IRS would pursue them instead of corporate TWI.
It seems to me that there had to be more to this than that. As I recall, the main reason that the IRS was on TWI HQ grounds was due to TWI’s involvement with & financial contributions to the senatorial campaign of Hayes Gahagan of Maine. There are & were federal laws prohibiting this type of activity. There may have been other significant issues of misuse of funds relative to laws regulating section 503c supposedly non-profit religious corporations.
From a personal conversation before she died, Dr. Margaret Singer told me that she had been contacted by the IRS to serve as a witness in a federal lawsuit against TWI. Other national level experts were to be witnesses as well. Nevertheless, the case did not proceed to court. Did TWI buy, bribe, or plea bargain its way out of this litigation?
Does anyone here at gsc know any more details as to why this federal litigation was dropped?
Sorry, this is all way too far over my head (political stuff just confuses the dickens out of me), but wasn't Lt. Col. Sam Graham considered WC but allowed to be exempt from the full time staff mandate because he was on the Joint Chiefs of Staff?
I had forgotten about Graham. Nevertheless, in his military postion, he probably would not be privy to the details of the IRS investigation. What do you think, Mark?
More likely intel could come from some of our gsc posters in worked in TWI's finance department during this time period.
Maybe radar could shed some light?
Is Linder in or out of TWI? If out, I wonder if he posts or lurks here @ gsc?
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jkboehme
Does anyone who was involved in TWI's clandestine military outreach recall these events?
Seems to me it would have been occurring when St*ve Axt**l USN was coordinating military outreach and singing about the 'Band of Gold.'
Also, perhaps Ltcdr. Don**d L** H*r*t*g, USN, could enlighten us?
He is in the Program Executive Office Cruise Missiles and Joint Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, abbreviated acronym PEOCU. In this position Lcdr. H*r*t*g has an office in the White House, and is apparently spends a significant amount of time there each weekday that he is not traveling.
Interesting. Spooky.
If you try to pull up the strikenet sites below, the sites open but close within ~ 1 second apparently due to being restricted military sites.
Certification Practice Statement PEO(CU) TPOpeo_cps2.htm
Certification Practice Statement Program Executive Office. for Strike Weapons and Unmanned Aviation. Telecommunications Program Office. Formerly. ...
www.strikenet.js.mil/CPSDraft/CPS_Draft/peo_cps2.htm - 101k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
Certification Practice Statement PEO(CU) Telecommunications ...
... Section 2 - PEO(CU) Telecommunications Office Certification Infrastructure. ... 3.10 Availability of PEO(CU) Telecommunications Office Certificates. ...
www.strikenet.js.mil/CPSDraft/CPS_Draft/peo_cps3.htm - 101k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.strikenet.js.mil ]
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markomalley
I don't know how much covert military outreach there was. At least during the time I was in, it was pretty much out in the open. Maybe it was hidden during the 70s, before my time. The bit about the nice, friendly, pretty WOW girls was pretty much true. The fact that they wanted to recruit military folks was true. The fact that the traditional religious folk were not happy, because TWI was a cult, was true. But covert? Naw. In fact, I didn't hesitate too much from mentioning it even during security investigations (you have to list your memberships and affiliations on the background investigation form) -- and it never prevented me from having a clearance (e.g., TS), indoctrinations (e.g., SCI, COMSEC, etc.), or access to any programs (e.g., if I told you I'd have to shoot you).
Just to keep things in perspective. Having said that, it may have been different during the '70s.
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jkboehme
Hey Mark,
Do you have any intel re either of the two folks I mentioned in my previous post?
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markomalley
The first name rings a vague bell. But that's about it.
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jkboehme
interesting link, page 59.
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:N_9b4...+and+navy&hl=en
A wayfer that at one time worked for Microsoft, G*rl*nd Ed*** Th**nb**rg, had been in the USN on a nuclear submarine in the late 80's, early 90's.
Does anyone know if he's out of twi or is he still in?
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markomalley
Why is that interesting?
Obviously, the guy works in the program office for the Predator, or he did 7 years ago. He was a Lt Cmdr, the equivalent to an Army, AF, USMC Major. That would place him at somewhere between 7 and 14 years time in service (probably over 10). In an officer's career path, they generally get stuck in a desk job pushing papers around that level of experience. If he did good, chances are that he would go to a small unit (batallion level) command stint on his next assignment.
This document is the read-ahead for an acquisition reform conference, the type they have many times a year down in the Pentagon City/ Crystal City area. The tone of this document leads me to believe it was sort of a self-congratulatory conference where they were telling themselves how smart they were and how much money they've saved the Navy while, at the same time, making the Navy much more effective (yawn). There were a lot of conferences like that when they were self-affirming how smart they were in implementing Al Gore's re-inventing government measures. Your tax dollars at work.
There's no news here. Just that he was stationed at Pax River 7 years ago and shuffled paper. Sorry.
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jkboehme
I guess what concers me is that here is a TWI innie, who as recently as a few months ago had an office in the White House, whether shuffling papers or tweaking his drone's gps, I don't know. The PEOCU is involved with unmanned global hawks and predator drones, such as the type that killed Sadam Hussein's two sons.
But how in the world does a cultic TWI innie get clearance to be in the White House several days per week? What kind of pro-TWI trash is he scattering about the White House? To the Home Land Security? To the Office of Faith-Based Communty Initiatives, so that his favorite cult can get our tax dollars? Scarry to me.
What connection, if any, does this person have to the late 70's nuclear concerns?
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markomalley
Well, I appreciate what you're saying here.
Keep in mind that, as an innie, I had a security clearance above Top Secret and dealt with all sorts of good stuff that I can't even come close to telling you about. Shoot, as a fairly fresh outie, I was doing counterterrorism...and part of counterterrorism was providing support to other agencies in dealing with domestic incidents (like white supremicist groups).
Galen, another poster here, was on a nuclear submarine -- as an innie.
Now, I can't speak for anybody else here, but when I was an innie and dealt with civilian TWI folks, I would simply not tell them the specifics of what I was dealing with in my job. And they respected that (equating it to the lockbox principle).
What you're saying is the equivalent to stating that a deeply committed Catholic should not be allowed to possess a clearance, because he might spill his guts during confession, or that he might have questions of whether to be loyal to the US or to the Vatican.
Like it or not, there is freedom of religion in this country. And that includes the freedom to belong to a group like TWI, the moonies, hare krishna, or to David Koresh's group. For the most part, the government respects that -- and, all in all, that is probably a good thing. In fact, the government is not even permitted to ask you about your religious preference when filling out a security clearance background investigation form anymore (my last update was in 2003, so that is the timeliness of my information).
Just because some (or even a plurality) of the leaders in an organization are corrupt and abusive, that gives nobody the right to tar everybody with that same brush. And, even in TWI, there were good people. I have not heard anybody say a bad word about Walter Cummins. Likewise with Joe Guarini. and quite a few others. That, in no way, excuses those who were bad. But it points out that people should be judged as people and not, automatically assumed to be wrong, just because they were in the same religion with somebody else who was wrong.
Just because some (or even a decent percentage) of the followers in an organization gave up their will to think for themselves and subjegated their thoughts and their souls to a theology that demanded blind obedience doesn't mean that everybody did. I know of NO military person in my time in TWI who would have ever considered compromising his military commitment because of TWI. Not to say that this didn't happen, but I sure didn't witness any of that. (At the time, I was rather envious of those people who were able to go WOW or able to go in the Way Corps , but I couldn't -- because I had made a commitment that prevented me from doing so. That commitment probably kept me from going off the deep end -- because part of that commitment kept me as a professional and prevented me from totally selling out to, what I believed at that time, God). There were onsie-twosie departures all the time through the late 70s and 80s. And I seem to recall a rather large departure of Way Corps, along with rank-and-file believers in 1989, after the "loyalty letter" came out. Truly brainwashed zombies wouldn't have been able to make themselves depart like that. [Note: that is not to say that everybody who stuck around after the loyalty letter was a brainwashed zombie...please don't take it that way, all I'm saying is that if the membership was totally brainwashed, they would have 100% completely done whatever they were told, no matter how outrageous it was]
I can't personally speak for anyody else who was military and TWI at the same time here, but I will tell you that I NEVER gave any classified information out nor was I asked. Had I been asked, I would have said no. Had the person asking pushed, it would have set up a conflict in me that would have resulted in my departure earlier than, in fact, happened. As I said, I can't personally speak for anybody else, but if I was to wager, I would wager that this would be the reaction of most.
All I'm saying is that when you're making a broad-brush statement like: <i>But how in the world does a cultic TWI innie get clearance to be in the White House several days per week? </i>, you are not only accusing somebody who you really don't know, you are also accusing a bunch of us who were <i>cultic TWI innies</i>, had high security clearances, and did not compromise our commitment to our country as a result of our religious affiliation at the time. Maybe you ought to re-think the words you used to make that statement.
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topoftheworld
"Just because some (or even a plurality) of the leaders in an organization are corrupt and abusive, that gives nobody the right to tar everybody with that same brush. And, even in TWI, there were good people."
Well said, Mark.
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J0nny Ling0
Mr. O'Malley. Very well put. You too TOTW...
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markomalley
BTW, here is an article done up from SPLC research on the old militia movement that you might find a bit interesting:
The takeaway on this is that most of these people who were so deeply involved with all the conspiracy stuff were, for the most part, wannabes. When it came down to it, they abandoned ship when the going got too tough for them. But what characterized them in general was a feeling of powerlessness that they are able to overcome through believing in a conspiracy to explain their personal lack. You still haven't shown me that TWI, in the field of conspiracies, that is any more serious than that.
Did Wierwille spread conspiracy stuff? Of course. Did Wierwille teach it to people? Yup. Did people buy into it? Absolutely! Conspiracy theories are very compelling when you can't understand why things are the way they are. Did he stockpile weapons? Don't know, but in all likelihood yes...hunting weapons (show me some proof of .50 cal, RPG's, Claymores, and all the rest). Did he have people take survivalist training and have that kind of mentality? Sure. Absolutely. Again, it fits with his apocryphal vision [brought on, in large part, due to his Aryan theology, imho]. But did he stockpile heavy weapons? Prove it. Did he stockpile explosives? Prove it. Did he have terrorist plans for offensive operations? Prove it.
I used to fly in black helicopters (you know, the ones the conspiracy nuts are talking about all the time). A conspiracy nut is one who believes the helicopter is being driven by a pilot with a mind-control chip embedded in his brain and whose hands are being tracked by the Bilderbergers. He believes the helicopter is swooping down to get an unarmed patriot out of his home and take him to a re-education center. Well, I used to fly in them...
You want to tell me that Wierwille was a conspiracy nut? I will agree with you. You want to tell me that he tried to breed other conspiracy nuts through his teaching and practices? No problem.
A conspiracy-driven terrorist is one who will believe the same thing as the conspiracy nut, but will try to shoot down the helicopter to save his neighbor.
A plain-old terrorist is one who will use the conspiracy theory as his excuse to do damage and will try to encite the conspiracy nut into becoming a conspiracy-driven terrorist.
99.5% of conspiracy nuts are just that. .49% may be able to be turned into conspiracy-driven terrorists. .01% are just plain old terrorists.
I have not read anything credible here or anyplace else that would place Wierwille and TWI in any other category than that of the simple conspiracy nut.
My advice: if there's something there, great. But don't turn into a conspiracy nut through unraveling other conspiracy nuts. Said with all due respect, of course.
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Jim
JK said...
And Markomalley said...To throw in my 2 bits... I worked with tactical nuclear weapons in the Army, held an AEC "Q" clearance, and did engineering work on the security systems of 3 weapons labs and other sensitive facilities.
I never heard a word connecting TWI and nuclear weapons, and the issue never came up during my vetting for the various security clearances I've held.
I think it is *extremely* unlikely that anyone seriously considered getting their hands on a nuclear device. What the hell would they use it for? Holding a city hostage? Making a political statement? VPW had plenty of flaws, but I don't think he ever could have been a mass-murderer-terrorist. This is pure speculation, but all I can imagine is that someone read "Curve of Binding Energy" and made some remark about how easy it would be to get nuclear material. More likely is that someone just dropped a dime to make live a little more uncomfortable for VPW/TWI.
JK, Christian fundimentalists have their hands near the plutonium and have been inside weapons programs all over the country since the beginning. Given the vast array of Christian groups, it's unlikely that TWI would have been considered any particular risk. Pre-911, I don't think that religious involvement had any significance in whether a person could get a security clearance or not. I don't know how it works now.
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socks
I have it on good authority that VPW ordered a telescope at one point.
Space travel...???
WOMnauts....?
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jkboehme
Per Mark:
______________
Mark, I appreciate your perspective as former military. This is helpful. The more ex-military that post, the better, so we can see the spectrum of opinions on these matters.
Nevertheless, one item you mentioned that concerns me is this. What if someone had become so internally conflicted in a given situation that he or she did release classified information or materials? Even if most military folks wouldn't have given in, it only takes ONE individual to cause a major situation.
I'm sure you have read the posts over the past several years where various individuals have said that they would have done ANYTHING that vpw or lcm requested, including homocide.
Now when this is put in the context of national security, personally, I find it disturbing that a 'heavily indoctrinated' TWI member apparently has top security clearance, is in the White House several days per week, and appears to have some management or command authority re PEOCU predator drones and global hawks. Maybe his next assignment will be nukes?
I am not personally familiar with many national or international level conspiracies. In fact the only one that comes to mind right now, at least, is TWI. TWI gladly co-opted medical, counseling, & legal professionals. To what degree was TWI involved in co-opting military professionals with a high security clearance?
We need to have definitive answers.
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markomalley
Obviously, I cannot speak to literally everybody who was in the military and involved with TWI, nor can I speak to literally everybody who was in the military and was Jewish, or Catholic, or Baptist, or Wiccan, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or Atheist, or whatever. And it is entirely possible that a person who was from any of the above religions could commit espionage. I can think of people who were Jewish, and Catholic, and Baptist, and Muslim, and Atheist who have, in fact, committed espionage. Was their religious preference a factor in the espionage? Very possibly. I know in the case of Jonathan Pollard, he sold his information to an Israeli spy. I know in the case of Chaplain Yu (Muslim), he acted as a courier path between Al Qaeda detainees at Guantanamo and Al Qaeda contacts on the outside. The other cases that I am familiar with were done for other reasons, such as political and financial. Having said that, should Muslims be prohibted, because they are Muslim, from holding a clearance? How about Jews?
I don't know of a TWI person who has committed espionage. I also don't know of a buddhist who has. So are those groups beyond suspicion? Who knows...
I know of people affiliated with a certain denomination who will go into debt to pay offerings to the leadership of this denomination. Some of these people treat relics touched by the hand of the leaders as if they were talismans. They latch onto every word spoken by a leader within the denomination as if it came out of the mouth of God himself. Certain members of this denomination have made allegations of abuse. And so on. The denomination is not TWI. It is not Catholic. It is a fairly mainstream evangelical Protestant denomination. I don't want to offend, so I will leave the exact denomination name out of the discussion, because it is irrelevant. Because some within that denomination are that fanatic and that brainwashed should everybody who goes to church in that denomination be suspect? Because a few of the leaders of that denomination promulgate those beliefs among the faithful, should all the leaders be suspect?
One thing you need to realize is that the military has its own form of indoctrination and that this indoctrination is a lot more effective than TWI indoctrination ever was. The majority of people I have known in the military, particularly the majority who have made a career of it, have a degree of mental discipline and toughness that is not really the norm in the civilian community. Not that military people are at all superior or anything, but the day-to-day training that happens through years helps inculcate that in people. Face it, if a civilian screws up on the job, maybe a balance sheet is not right or a window is dirty or something else. If a person in the military (particularly those in certain specialities) screws up, somebody will die, a nuke will go off, a war will start, a $100 million plane will crash, etc. The norm for training the mind must be a lot tougher. Again, that's not to say that there aren't civilian occupations with this type of responsibility, but the amount of responsibility taken on by the military people is, on average, a lot more and, on average, comes a lot faster than with civilian counterparts.
You are going to have bad people everywhere. You are going to have vulnerable people everywhere. Put the two groups together and you are going to have problems everywhere. But that doesn't mean with everybody from that particular demographic.
What I'm saying is keep reviewing your telexes. Give me some proof of your allegations. My learned opinion of Wierwille was that he was a conspiracy nut. (See earlier definition) And that he spread that conspiracy nuttiness to his followers. And conspiracy nuts talk big...often without anything to back up the talk. But I'm willing to listen and learn.
I am absolutely happy to help analyze which of those telexes you choose to post or otherwise publish. And if I see something that is of note, I'm happy to show the connections that make it of note. If you can tell me about a TWI person who committed espionage with the recipient of that information being TWI, I might change my mind. IF you can show me some evidence that TWI was actively attempting to get national security information (about nukes or not) from its members, I'll be happy to evaluate it.
But the facts you've shown are as follows:
1. A WOW stated that he believed TWI was trying to build a bomb. This was refuted by another WOW.
2. Female WOWs were trying to recruit military folk for TWI.
3. A commissioned officer who was, at one point, running military outreach for TWI, was working in the program office at NAS Patuxent River MD that dealt with UAVs. (And, btw, that is a long way from the WH and is absolutely no guarantee that he ever possessed a Yankee White -- the level of access required for unescorted access to the WH)
Those FACTS don't tell me anything that even comes close to substantiating any allegation that I see you trying to build. Please, give some more FACTS.
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Jim
JK, can you tell us how you became aware of these government files regarding a nuclear device? I'm wondering if you found out from someone inside TWI because they routinely submitted FOIA requests concerning themselves, or if maybe someone in the meda stumbled onto it.
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jkboehme
Got the docs from a non-twi friend.
Regarding the fact that TWI routinely requested their own FOIPA, I did not know this, but neither am I surprised.
In this stack of repetitious records that I have, there are 3 copies of a letter from LCM, on TWI letterhead, dated 30 May 1984, to the Dept. of Justice. The essence of the letter is that LCM was requesting that the FBI totally expunge its records regarding TWI in 4 categories: (i) use of weapons; (ii) misuse of funds; (iii) anti-Semitism; &, (iv) mind control.
The FBI responds by letter dated 13 June 1984, stating, "...There are no statuatory provision enabling an organization such as yours to make that kind of request. Consequently, we have no authority to expunge or amend FBI records pertaining to your organization..." JKH, Chief FOIPA Section, Records Management Division.
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Jim
I wasn't confirming that they did, just speculating. Though it seems pretty likely given the LCM correspondence you have.
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markomalley
OK, now we're getting somewhere:
1) Use of weapons: TWI was widely reputed for having stockpiles of light weapons (small caliber rifles, shotguns, and the like). It would be reasonable to assume that the FBI would follow up on those suspicions to determine if there was any validity to them or not. Investigative records of that nature would be a reasonable thing to maintain. Once again, was there an illegal cache of weapons? Obviously the government was not able to locate one. Did they look? Maybe records to that fact would be in your stack of papers. If there aren't records, perhaps you could do another FOIA asking that specific question.
2) Misuse of funds. TWI lost, for a time, their tax exempt status. Records relating to that period would likewise be reasonable to maintain. There may have been fraud investigations conducted against TWI and appropriate people within TWI in connection with that loss of tax exempt status. To my knowledge, there was never any criminal prosecution against TWI or its board or its employees, so it would be reasonable to say that any issues that were connected to that were either determined to be a deficient accounting system that was non-compliant with IRS rules, negligence in accounting practices, or insufficient proof to assure conviction for any criminal fraud. Or a combination of the above. If you will recall, there were other religious organizations whose leadership were prosecuted as the result of fraud (e.g., Jim Bakker, etc.) -- this is not to say that I believe that TWI was not guilty of something, but rather that the government likely could not prove that acts were criminal. Perhaps information pertaining to that is in your stack of stuff. If not, you could FOIA the FBI and the IRS asking for records pertaining to TWI's loss of tax-exempt status. The Privacy Act doesn't include organizations, only individuals. So, with the exception of having the salaries of employees and board members, along with their social security numbers, redacted, you should be able to get plenty of information from a FOIA on that subject.
3) Anti-Semitism. We have enough witnesses on this board to demonstrate that anti-Semitic teaching went on during the 70s and 80s. Holocaust denial, etc. Unlike Germany, those beliefs are not illegal here. Thus, it is doubtful that the FBI would waste resources on an organization that simply taught those beliefs, because there would be no crime to prosecute. However, if there was indication of anti-Semitic activity (e.g., cross burnings, hate mail, threats, actual crimes) being committed by TWI or its followers, then it is possible that there could be some records existing on that subject. I have never heard of any of that type of activity from TWI, including on the Waydale board or this one. Not saying it didn't happen, but I just haven't seen it or heard about it (other than the teachings issue). A FOIA to the FBI and to other government agencies, including one to DOJ Hate Crimes unit and the US Attornies that cover the different locales (NK, Emporia, etc.), could provide a definitive answer one way or the other.
4) Mind Control. What statute does that cover?
Let me give you a little extract from the FBI's Law Enforcement Bulletin to show you their attitude about the subject:
(source: FBI. Interacting with "Cults." Law Enforcement Bulletin. 69:9. Sept 2000. p 16)
In light of this, it is highly unlikely that the FBI would maintain records on TWI discussing mind control, unless some other issue was involved, as well.
Let me quote myself with something I said a bit earlier:
I really believe that this is the extent of the TWI inolvement with this type of stuff. Troubling? Sure. Illegal? You'd have to prove that to me.
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jkboehme
On either the Snapping or Cults thread, someone mentioned that they thought the reason the IRS finally pulled their multi-year operation off of TWI HQ grounds was that TWI gave the IRS the names of some DFACs {dropped from active corps} so that the IRS would pursue them instead of corporate TWI.
It seems to me that there had to be more to this than that. As I recall, the main reason that the IRS was on TWI HQ grounds was due to TWI’s involvement with & financial contributions to the senatorial campaign of Hayes Gahagan of Maine. There are & were federal laws prohibiting this type of activity. There may have been other significant issues of misuse of funds relative to laws regulating section 503c supposedly non-profit religious corporations.
From a personal conversation before she died, Dr. Margaret Singer told me that she had been contacted by the IRS to serve as a witness in a federal lawsuit against TWI. Other national level experts were to be witnesses as well. Nevertheless, the case did not proceed to court. Did TWI buy, bribe, or plea bargain its way out of this litigation?
Does anyone here at gsc know any more details as to why this federal litigation was dropped?
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Belle
Sorry, this is all way too far over my head (political stuff just confuses the dickens out of me), but wasn't Lt. Col. Sam Graham considered WC but allowed to be exempt from the full time staff mandate because he was on the Joint Chiefs of Staff?
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jkboehme
I had forgotten about Graham. Nevertheless, in his military postion, he probably would not be privy to the details of the IRS investigation. What do you think, Mark?
More likely intel could come from some of our gsc posters in worked in TWI's finance department during this time period.
Maybe radar could shed some light?
Is Linder in or out of TWI? If out, I wonder if he posts or lurks here @ gsc?
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jkboehme
Belle,
Just in case Lt. Col SG does know something regarding TWI & either/or weapons or IRS investigations, do you know if he is currently still in TWI?
jkb
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jkboehme
Does anyone know if Steve Axtel, USN (?retired) is in or out of twi?
He's the one who wrote & used to sing @ WIBP etc., "The Band of Gold."
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