I was thinking about one of those stages that TGN spoke of.
I have found that many times the first thing I have to do is forgive myself - not that I'm necessarily WRONG but because looking back in hindsight I see the million and one things I could have done to avoid being abused - in any fashion.
I guess I'm thinking about that guy that cornered me and how I reacted. Looking back, even tho I wasn't compromised I hated that I wasn't louder, or told someone sooner. When I found out that he was boinking others i had to forgive myself for not blowing the whistle and not giving him the opportunity to do that again.
I hadn't done anything wrong. But I wanted to do more. I had to stop that cycle of reliving the moment and rethinking every frikkin' thing.
In a way I have to "forgive in waves." First I had to forgive myself, then I had to forgive others- It all comes slowly.
Perhaps this slow process helps us to better appreciate the forgiveness we receive from the Father. helps us to better realoze just what it was that Jesus Christ did for us - and Lord knows that wasn't a slow and easy process for him.
Anyway, thank all of you for being so honest and open and kind to each other.
I really like the imagery of combing out the knots. Beautiful.
"i think that points to what i meant by 'cascades of crimes'
and how injury can go from bad to worse to catastrophic real fast
the more layered and stacked and tangled things become
navigating this knotted mess is a big part of our life's work
...all of our wisdom and peace and salvation is hiding in there
and its the only knotted mess we have to work with
and everyone has one"
That second paragraph is so dead on!! Our lives are what WE have. WE do not have something else to barter, offer, or perfect.
Ya know, (not to sound repetitive) since I last posted:
But I found out that there were 4 other dogs in the connected barn that burned. And the only one they found was the one who was "His" (the owner's personal dog) sitting on the steps.
The idea is clear to me ... SirGuess's second paragraph.
Paraphrased: "Our salvation is in our experiences which have been reconciled." Reconcilitation is a big deal. A forgiveness, a love, a hurt, ...a tangled mess of personal reality... But my mind keeps going back to that dog... right now. These realities are more than "personal" they are universal...
Everyone has different "experiences" and "grammar" - but the truths that we experience are universal. That dog... and his unflagging, unrequested love... is a universal. The experience that triggered this response in me is not.
Too much is made out of the differences in our experiences... IMHO... our experiences count for very little... the question is... "Did you see it (not the experience) - but the "truth" which you saw with your own eyes?"
If not... other experiences will come - in a knotted mess, of course - and we get to deal with the same universals again.
Sorry I was posting when you already had finished.
Forgiveness is in waves! Realizations and truth realities come in that fashion - I think.
For instance:
The Other guy - - wave. (Where the other guy is partly/mostly... responsible and you decide to forgive him)
The Meaner person - - wave. (When the other person was down, right, nasty - and you had no ill in your heart... yet the whole thing melted down... and got ugly - fast...)
The YOU - - wave. (Where you have a "come to Jesus meeting" and see new light in the whole matter)
Too Gray - Thanks for the cudos. I keep on thinking that these waves come then recede then come back. Mybe that's why Romans 8 had to be written - so that God could tell us to get off our own cases and let Him do the judging.
I have learned that when you judge another you do judge youself - because at the very least you set up a standard that you must now uphold. For some people those standards are so high that even they themselves cannot cut the mustard. (Sounds like some Pharisees we know - huh?)
I had a friend that kept on changing the prople he ran with because he had done just that - set up standards for "friends" then when the fell short of the mark he reproved them - then when they returned the favor, he had to leave them for other friends. ( It was wrong as long as YOU did it but if HE did it he was OK because he had some justification.) Needless to say, I became one of his castoffs.
There is a paragraph in the book that I started this with that says something to this effect - has to do with legalism and how it keeps one far from grace.
Quite frankly, if it takes swallowing my pride to live in grace - I'll do it.
Doesn't the Word say something abvout how easy it is to love the loveable (but anyone can do that) the real trick is loving the unloveable (now THAT:S hard!!!) Put simply - the most unloveable people in my book are those that I need to forgive - because they hurt ME! And sometimes I can say:
"I have seen the enemy and he is us." (Or She is me.)
SIRG and too gray..I caught myself in snares of "issues", I kept thinking my issues would never get resloved, they were so deep. I still get hit with stuff occassionaly because my family was involved and may dear friends. But when it comes to your own children I had to work hard not to let my harden and keep the love I understand to flow....You both so eloquently have given me much to think about..but I have learned to keep a good healthy balance. thanks again
I have learned that when you judge another you do judge youself -
Yes. For sure. In a very real sense. I used to think that statements like you just made were full of crapola - some sort of self-guilt-ridden person was trying to pull me down.
Now. I think that many people believe that when they judge someone to condemnation and themselves to justification - based upon each one’s works - … they think that they are now in the “clear” and none of the condemning judgment “sticks” to them. This is a false lesson which comes from the pattern of blaming and forgiving handed down to us all who are living on this planet - which has gone on for thousands of years. – Like what Sirguess said:
“like how people can and do pass on specific ways of blaming and forgiving
in ways that continue for hundreds or thousands of years"
Maybe I should stop now for a moment and let this sort of marinate. For eons we have been practicing this sort of “justifiable” justice. (Not saying it is "bad" - you know - you fry the guy who killed your wife... seems logical to me -right?) – but what if we practiced a more “pardon” based kind of justice? Just asking… what do you think would happen? What if imparting "light" was preferable to "putting out their lights"?
As a side note: when 9/11 hit and I said to some friends… “We need to pray for these Muslims.” - You would have thought that I had killed George Washington!! Their looks and comments were like - “Kill them all! Turn their sand into GLASS with a REAL bomb….”
But, I was simply realizing that a prayer for one’s “enemy” – really meant that truly good things SHOULD happen – to them..
Such as peace, love, care, forgiveness, etc....
We really do judge ourselves when we judge another.
Are you OK? Maybe I am not reading between the lines of your post, well. I accept the appreciation... But if there are some deep-breaking issues that these words have stirred... – then I just did not want to cheapen your post by saying… “thanks”.
"i wonder though if it took you over 20 years to forgive yourself for something you never did wrong"
and thought i'd take it a few steps back
because it reminded me of a few things
like how people can and do pass on specific ways of blaming and forgiving
in ways that continue for hundreds or thousands of years
Isn't this all too real today"
Thousands of years ago God gives Abraham a promise of children. But his wife gets anxious and he gives in and gets a substutute. Enter Hagar and her son Esau. God then keeps His promisd HIS way and Sarah has a child - Isaac. Exit Hagar and Esau.
Bitterness. Resentment. Fighting, fighting and more fighting. The wars still continue today. Hagar and Esau were totally screwed by Abraham. God took care of them. Imagine what would have been a major change in history if Hagar and Esau could somehow have forgiven Abe and Sarah and found true joy and thankfulness in God's provision. ( Now I know they didn't deserve to be cast out. God didnt' tell Abe to cast them out - Sarah did out of jealousy.)
I bet both sides don't even realize that this is a centuries-old family dispute. One side hates and the other responds with hate. Both sides feel totally justified in their actions. Both sides have valid points. Now it's gotten to the point that there is financial profit in continuing this family feud. ( War really is a great money maker even if it destroys lives.)
Sometimes I have to face myself and ask myself "What is the Payoff for holding on to the past?" Sometimes I have to anwer,"nothing." other times the answer is that the resentment feels so familiar that I am more at home with it than I imagine I would be with the alternative. Then I realize the rediculousness of this and I ask God for help. I get out of His way and go through the difficult process of forgiveness. Its tough and it never seems fair. It goes against all sense of justice. But it is the only thing that works.
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doojable
You ALL are so wonderful!
I was thinking about one of those stages that TGN spoke of.
I have found that many times the first thing I have to do is forgive myself - not that I'm necessarily WRONG but because looking back in hindsight I see the million and one things I could have done to avoid being abused - in any fashion.
I guess I'm thinking about that guy that cornered me and how I reacted. Looking back, even tho I wasn't compromised I hated that I wasn't louder, or told someone sooner. When I found out that he was boinking others i had to forgive myself for not blowing the whistle and not giving him the opportunity to do that again.
I hadn't done anything wrong. But I wanted to do more. I had to stop that cycle of reliving the moment and rethinking every frikkin' thing.
In a way I have to "forgive in waves." First I had to forgive myself, then I had to forgive others- It all comes slowly.
Perhaps this slow process helps us to better appreciate the forgiveness we receive from the Father. helps us to better realoze just what it was that Jesus Christ did for us - and Lord knows that wasn't a slow and easy process for him.
Anyway, thank all of you for being so honest and open and kind to each other.
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Too Gray Now
Sirguess,
I really like the imagery of combing out the knots. Beautiful.
"i think that points to what i meant by 'cascades of crimes'
and how injury can go from bad to worse to catastrophic real fast
the more layered and stacked and tangled things become
navigating this knotted mess is a big part of our life's work
...all of our wisdom and peace and salvation is hiding in there
and its the only knotted mess we have to work with
and everyone has one"
That second paragraph is so dead on!! Our lives are what WE have. WE do not have something else to barter, offer, or perfect.
Ya know, (not to sound repetitive) since I last posted:
But I found out that there were 4 other dogs in the connected barn that burned. And the only one they found was the one who was "His" (the owner's personal dog) sitting on the steps.
The idea is clear to me ... SirGuess's second paragraph.
Paraphrased: "Our salvation is in our experiences which have been reconciled." Reconcilitation is a big deal. A forgiveness, a love, a hurt, ...a tangled mess of personal reality... But my mind keeps going back to that dog... right now. These realities are more than "personal" they are universal...
Everyone has different "experiences" and "grammar" - but the truths that we experience are universal. That dog... and his unflagging, unrequested love... is a universal. The experience that triggered this response in me is not.
Too much is made out of the differences in our experiences... IMHO... our experiences count for very little... the question is... "Did you see it (not the experience) - but the "truth" which you saw with your own eyes?"
If not... other experiences will come - in a knotted mess, of course - and we get to deal with the same universals again.
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Too Gray Now
Dooj...
Great post.
Sorry I was posting when you already had finished.
Forgiveness is in waves! Realizations and truth realities come in that fashion - I think.
For instance:
The Other guy - - wave. (Where the other guy is partly/mostly... responsible and you decide to forgive him)
The Meaner person - - wave. (When the other person was down, right, nasty - and you had no ill in your heart... yet the whole thing melted down... and got ugly - fast...)
The YOU - - wave. (Where you have a "come to Jesus meeting" and see new light in the whole matter)
Best to you - Dooj.
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sirguessalot
i was just thinking of that statement you made:
"i wonder though if it took you over 20 years to forgive yourself for something you never did wrong"
and thought i'd take it a few steps back
because it reminded me of a few things
like how people can and do pass on specific ways of blaming and forgiving
in ways that continue for hundreds or thousands of years
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CM
great posts
ya know it's funny that i kinda think
forgiveness is revenge
from the many ways of seeing it
and what happens during and after forgiveness
like an awakening to new things
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doojable
Too Gray - Thanks for the cudos. I keep on thinking that these waves come then recede then come back. Mybe that's why Romans 8 had to be written - so that God could tell us to get off our own cases and let Him do the judging.
I have learned that when you judge another you do judge youself - because at the very least you set up a standard that you must now uphold. For some people those standards are so high that even they themselves cannot cut the mustard. (Sounds like some Pharisees we know - huh?)
I had a friend that kept on changing the prople he ran with because he had done just that - set up standards for "friends" then when the fell short of the mark he reproved them - then when they returned the favor, he had to leave them for other friends. ( It was wrong as long as YOU did it but if HE did it he was OK because he had some justification.) Needless to say, I became one of his castoffs.
There is a paragraph in the book that I started this with that says something to this effect - has to do with legalism and how it keeps one far from grace.
Quite frankly, if it takes swallowing my pride to live in grace - I'll do it.
Doesn't the Word say something abvout how easy it is to love the loveable (but anyone can do that) the real trick is loving the unloveable (now THAT:S hard!!!) Put simply - the most unloveable people in my book are those that I need to forgive - because they hurt ME! And sometimes I can say:
"I have seen the enemy and he is us." (Or She is me.)
Anyway - just some thoughts.
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likeaneagle
SIRG and too gray..I caught myself in snares of "issues", I kept thinking my issues would never get resloved, they were so deep. I still get hit with stuff occassionaly because my family was involved and may dear friends. But when it comes to your own children I had to work hard not to let my harden and keep the love I understand to flow....You both so eloquently have given me much to think about..but I have learned to keep a good healthy balance. thanks again
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Too Gray Now
Dooj...
Yes. For sure. In a very real sense. I used to think that statements like you just made were full of crapola - some sort of self-guilt-ridden person was trying to pull me down.
Now. I think that many people believe that when they judge someone to condemnation and themselves to justification - based upon each one’s works - … they think that they are now in the “clear” and none of the condemning judgment “sticks” to them. This is a false lesson which comes from the pattern of blaming and forgiving handed down to us all who are living on this planet - which has gone on for thousands of years. – Like what Sirguess said:
“like how people can and do pass on specific ways of blaming and forgiving
in ways that continue for hundreds or thousands of years"
Maybe I should stop now for a moment and let this sort of marinate. For eons we have been practicing this sort of “justifiable” justice. (Not saying it is "bad" - you know - you fry the guy who killed your wife... seems logical to me -right?) – but what if we practiced a more “pardon” based kind of justice? Just asking… what do you think would happen? What if imparting "light" was preferable to "putting out their lights"?
As a side note: when 9/11 hit and I said to some friends… “We need to pray for these Muslims.” - You would have thought that I had killed George Washington!! Their looks and comments were like - “Kill them all! Turn their sand into GLASS with a REAL bomb….”
But, I was simply realizing that a prayer for one’s “enemy” – really meant that truly good things SHOULD happen – to them..
Such as peace, love, care, forgiveness, etc....
We really do judge ourselves when we judge another.
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Too Gray Now
LikeEagle...
Are you OK? Maybe I am not reading between the lines of your post, well. I accept the appreciation... But if there are some deep-breaking issues that these words have stirred... – then I just did not want to cheapen your post by saying… “thanks”.
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excathedra
thanks t, i understand
**
when i was in the way, something that always gave me pause was
grace is divine unmerited favor
mercy is withholding of merited judgment
i did my "research" paper on mercy because i felt such need for it in my life
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likeaneagle
Im fine...Ive come to realize that im not the only deep thinker..lol..thank you for asking.
I did have some terrifying moments of lack of knowledge tho. :)
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doojable
Isn't this all too real today"
Thousands of years ago God gives Abraham a promise of children. But his wife gets anxious and he gives in and gets a substutute. Enter Hagar and her son Esau. God then keeps His promisd HIS way and Sarah has a child - Isaac. Exit Hagar and Esau.
Bitterness. Resentment. Fighting, fighting and more fighting. The wars still continue today. Hagar and Esau were totally screwed by Abraham. God took care of them. Imagine what would have been a major change in history if Hagar and Esau could somehow have forgiven Abe and Sarah and found true joy and thankfulness in God's provision. ( Now I know they didn't deserve to be cast out. God didnt' tell Abe to cast them out - Sarah did out of jealousy.)
I bet both sides don't even realize that this is a centuries-old family dispute. One side hates and the other responds with hate. Both sides feel totally justified in their actions. Both sides have valid points. Now it's gotten to the point that there is financial profit in continuing this family feud. ( War really is a great money maker even if it destroys lives.)
Sometimes I have to face myself and ask myself "What is the Payoff for holding on to the past?" Sometimes I have to anwer,"nothing." other times the answer is that the resentment feels so familiar that I am more at home with it than I imagine I would be with the alternative. Then I realize the rediculousness of this and I ask God for help. I get out of His way and go through the difficult process of forgiveness. Its tough and it never seems fair. It goes against all sense of justice. But it is the only thing that works.
Just speaking for myself here.....
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