Ham

then.. what are you? just a question.. maybe the first response off of the top of your head.. *I am*... what? who? the answer I've seen is at the worst described as a "gift".. It starts with an "m".. Heh.. there are ten kazillion others waiting to answer the same question.. I hope they get their turn..

as to the original question.. is forgiveness even possible.. I'd have to vote yes. despite the double dealings from those supposedly in charge.. no, I really don't think they can fool themselves.. they will eventually have to forgive themselves.. what's the alternative? Ha! Frog breath is like Squirrel Breath.. I mean.. it's ok and all. But there are those who want to know if the Squirrel has had its shots.. some of us were sent to participate.. some of us were sent to observe.. often it didn't make any difference through which seed we were sent..

If you figure in Christian terms, you have to figure in Jewish(?) mysticism.. The Almighty sacrificed part of Himself for creation.. and in the end in Christian terms, part of Himself for redemption.. maybe part plus part equals whole.. if everything was perfect, it would be so boring.. If all you go by is the first half.. that is.. we are God's blood.. it would be enough, wouldn't it?

Just curious.. and.. where do you think us "gentiles" came from? I know my origins.. it wasn't frog breath or anything.. I'd say more, but people think (or rightfully KNOW) I'm nuts to begin with. or am I..

I guess that's left up to us.. Hmm. Figure I must still be here for a reason or something..

Maybe they just don't have a clue. Mr(?) linder (or replacement) please put these in the suggestion box.. 1. Incorporating "union busting" corporate tactics exhibited in the nineties. Setting employee against employee, follower against follower. And giving *employees* cut rate wages, little health care or retirement packages, while wallowing in utter opulence for your own greedy selves.. 2. Turning a blind eye to loy's, and many other bigwigs bad behavior, covering and enabling ungodliness, while MY abs continued rolling into the cesspool, thinking it was somehow a godly cause.. 3. Not allowing *your* people to enjoy a *somewhat* normal life. That is, buying a home, participating in community activities with their children, integrating themselves into an at least partially godly society (that is, far more godly than a group with pimps and thugs in the top tier) 4... while sending your kids to the best educational ventures that suit them, and their talents.. at the *believer's* expense.. Yeah.. one of HA's kids went to Devries. On who's dime? I know academically he wasn't suited to a big university.. glad someone figured that out.. but still.. 5. Families you divided.. trying to figure out who the weaker(?) party was.. that is, the one who would eventually bolt from the pressure your organization was impressing.. I call that "destructive testing" by the way.. pun intended and not.. I'd say more, but these are just a few starters to put in the suggestion box.. if there still is one.. I'm at peace. The real question is, are you? but no, I'm not waiting for any response. Or refund.

fair question..

Ha! The spurits have far too much to do, to be disturbed with the likes of all that.. like they are going to abandon their plan for world domination.. or whatever.. take time out of a busy work schedule to bother a few fanatical adherents..

Heh.. the bear doesn't care. He's off looking for fresh meat. Doesn't make any difference who, or what, or when, or where.. but we don't care, do we..

Unbelievable.. or amazing. how a con artist can label a *wayward* christian as a hater of the words of Jesus.. don't you think? I dunno.. some of the kids chose to flee from "zion".. seems those who choose to hang around the fort.. inherit the curse..

and I think that's *almost* the whole point here. *they* know you for some reason or another abide by some doctrine that is convenient at *ahem* their beck and call.. very very interesting.. yeah.. you HAVE to forgive the con artist.. or do you?

heh.. yep. reminds me a lot of cramming down one's throat "forgive or be a defiler of the words of Jesus".. nasty tasting medicine.. in the end though, one HAS to let go. One way or another..

a lot of good thoughts. though.. even at the end of a life.. forgiveness from another is not a thing that I personally could mandate. Yeah, it will all burn in the end.. but still.. perhaps it is a common cold. But try some of Granny's miracle cure, an odd mixture of sulfur, molasses and herbs, and within six weeks or so you will feel like a spring chicken.. let's see who remembers that reference.. I think I like that statement the best. some individuals, the only thing one can do is to grieve with them..

and the character assassination of someone who didn't agree with da way's interpretation of adultery.. forced abortions.. drugging, and or seduction of women.. etc. etc. I can't forgive them in behalf of this.. Maybe the best resolution I can have in this situation is "I never did or would never do this s*it.. they are NOT, nor ever have been my brethren.."

I really don't know.. I tend to attribute attacks on people from da way, specifically from those who run the organization, not much unlike that of wild animals.. it's their nature, they do what they do. Can you forgive an attack from a wild animal? Maybe it depends on the individual.. the severity of the attack.. lots of factors. The brutal savaging the P*olings by the donster.. blaming them for Ron Br*wn's death.. and loy's savaging of many, many others.. can one even forgive that? And how dare one attempt to forgive on behalf of another? "sorry mr. bear.. my friend really isn't upset you made off with his arms, a leg and half his brain.." "friend, jesus demands that you forgive.." It's just an observation.. no bitterness or anything..

kinda like an animal that has acquired a taste for human blood.. I really don't see any difference between this, and those who run the organization.. I think there is a reference in the old testament.. how difficult is is to "handle" those of "their type".. and, in conclusion.. no, they have not asked for forgiveness. From me, or anyone I know.. for ANYTHING. Ever. Neither do I expect it..

would it just be fair to simply realize they are not "brethren" and leave it at that? I mean.. that's kind of given at this point. Maybe that's all the closure one can have.. am I looking for apologies, from THEM? not really. they do what they do.. they are what they are.. what they are will never allow them to apologize, for anything. They can't mourn.. or be repentant.. its not in their nature.. kinda like a bear.. you just happened to be between it and food, or it thought you were food.. Christian? I don't think so.. they are more to be compared to brute beasts.. now I don't hold a grudge against ALL bears. Most of them haven't maimed me or something.. forgive the bear? I've seen interviews of people who were attacked by bears.. the superior mind tries to figure out why they were attacked.. and the frequent reason was that they just happened to be there.. I think an equivalent question might be.. can you forgive the bear.. understand, perhaps. But forgive? I dunno.. I haven't seen any mandates from Jesus lately, demanding forgiveness to bears for bear attacks.. No, they aren't "christian". Please don't read bitterness here. There is none.. I don't anticipate at whatever eternal reward I'm supposed to recieve.. "and thou, slothful servant, whomst held a grudge against mindless attacks of wild beats and vermin.." j.l... I just don't see it.. just a side note. What does society do with an animal that trespasses in the land of humans and kills and maims? just a thought.. I haven't seen negotiations or forgiveness or anything..

but can you "forgive" on the behalf of others? seems only the almighty has that kind of authority.. the only reasonable or fair way of doing that would be to provide restitution for the wronged first. what if all they want isn't eternal pie in the sky, but a small, insignificant return of their time and money, and some their youth and innocence? seems the almighty should be able to perform this lesser task as well..

that's the whole point, isn't it? :) so apparently, we don't let the offender go entirely free, do we? And as per Waysider's suggestion, my answer here is "no. They have never asked me to forgive them for stealing my time and money, allowing my sisters in the church to be pillaged and raped and worse." In fact, I can't think of a single time they've even admitted to anything like this, while not being bound to tell da truth under oath..

maybe.. but then again, maybe it depends on how you define "we". Maybe the worst thing they did.. call themselves our (or my) brethren. Forgive them? I don't know if one even can- they've proven to my satisfaction that they are not my brethren.. more like they are proven deceivers. It would be like a community trying to forgive a serial killer or something.. why is it when one rubs a little veneer of the bible on a godless organization, things are supposed to so different? They, rosie, the donster, et. al.. are spiritual serial killers.. they simply perform a function of what they are. no, I'll never get the time back, nor the money. It's like the thought of collecting social security in about ten years or so..

Mr. Phoenix rising.. I'm sorry. For you. you would have been better off fighting off competition in a masters degree program somewhere.. and there is no guarantee of success.. anywhere.. your bachelors.. isn't worth a crap in the new environment.. maybe that is all I should say.. kids from other countries would have you for lunch.. Yeah.. they might have me as well. I hope the meal is nutritious..

*he* reads here.. don't ask me how I know.. I just know.. so.. how are you going to explain it.. when your followers.. start. 1. breaking bones. Yes, it's happened already. How do I know? Well.. I'm da Squirrel. See all, know all and all of that.. 2. arriving late. to da appointment.. i.e. the gweatest experience of da worodagawd.. no greatness here. It's happened before.. 3. Rapes, fondeling and pillages.. if not now, they are to come. How do you reconcile that with a *perfect* standing? we'll see..

I'd say government is worse.. but no. I couldn't believe it.. last year I got a letter from the IRS. No, it wasn't an audit.. THEY were chasing ME down trying to give me a refund.. no frigging joke.. cmon, way international.. aren't you every bit BETTER than some godless government entity?

and just why is it that I'd agree..

and like another Bridge to Nowhere.. they aren't giving any money back.