Tom

Take it to the Just Plain Silly Forum & start topics on "I can't Remember Any Documentation, But I Post Anyway, " "It," "You're Fools (or something to that effect)," "I Don't Care to Give You Much TIme or Energy," "I'm Better Than You," "Other Various Unchristian Thoughts I Do in the Name of Jesus," "I Miss Clay & Todd & Where Has Everyone Else in GS Gone?"

How could he not be bored when you're talking about dead horses? Oh, and, as usual

Are you posting without regard to the topic of the thread you're in again? Or do you think courageously holding fast to the faithful Word is an inward path? Oh, I see - back a few posts; you're just arguing with Clay again. I should have known. That statement/principle you just stated - is that the Word? I don't remember seeing that in the Word anywhere. The Word says to give thanks for God's goodness. I hold that fast; it doesn't take any courage at all. On the other hand, courage is to keep heart in the face of danger - even "unbelievers" do that. Where in the faithful Word does it say that true courage is to hold fast the faithful Word? And if that's not in the faithful Word, then what Word are you holding fast to by saying that? Argue with Clay & Todd every chance you get? Even if you have to make up statements & make believe they are the Word to do so? And act like you're holding fast to the faithful Word when you do so? Way to keep heart in the face of danger.

Thanks for the welcome & the kind words, Abigail. Good to see you also.

Roy, does that mean we won't have to go to work on our birthdays? Sorry, Roy - I couldn't resist - no offense intended. That was a good post - thanks. Tom

Allan, when I say that "Jesus never showed disregard for what was going on in the hearts of people," that doesn't mean he agreed with everything that was in everyone's heart. He worked in the heart. You have to know the heart to work in the heart. To know the heart, you have to take time to learn it. Jesus amazed people because he spoke as one who had authority in the hearts of men, not authoritarian bullying. Matters of the heart - that's "the spot" Jesus worked in compassionately to heal people. It didn't shake him. A lesser man it might have. I tried to communicate how it is that, contrary to being shaken, he handled it with courage knowing that some - like you - would find occasion to misinterpret his steadines of mind, his meekness, for weakness. Suffice it to say that posting what I did on that thread was off topic. I say that what Clay said is what I say.

I don't know if this qualifies, Danny, but I - umm, I don't remember if it was interpretation of tongues or prophecy, but it was - well, it was positive (aren't these messages supposed to be uplifting? perhaps that's why you didn't see rebuke as such - unless it was not inspiration, but revelation as in that which a prophet might give), but it had to do with the doubt the carnal perspective that people had, and it ended with something like "How is it that you don't know that Jesus Christ is in you unless you are reprobates?" It was at a Corps meeting - not the big weekly Corps Meeting, but some meeting of the Way Corps at HQ (1st year of the 5th WC). I thought someone was going to tell me that I was out of line even as I said it, but I was inspired & that's where the message went, so I went with it. No one got on my case about it. Actually, a lot of people, including those "in charge" said things to the effect that THAT was the way it was supposed to be. You might say the others were "judging" as the Word says they should, & they said Amen. Sorry, I didn't ask. "Prayer or praise?" Are they my only choices? What about speaking to men for their edification, exhortation, and consolation?

Last week I had dinner with a believer who spoke in tongues & interpreted at a recent fellowship. After the fellowship, someone who had come for the first time came over to him and asked him where he had learned the language - one he knew and spoke. He had understood every word. My dinner companion said it took a few times trying to explain to the newcomer that he hadn't learned the language. "No, I didn't learn the language in a school; it was spiritually inspired." "No, no, no, I didn't grow up with someone who spoke the language." And so forth.

I'm not talking, Clay - just inviting Todd to talk - & I'm listening. No trap or argument here. Open, Tom

Yes, I got my answer on what Todd believes about the physical return of Christ, "basically" that he does NOT believe in a physical return. BUT I want to know what he DOES believe about the return, as he said, "about death and life and the transitions in-between as they pertain to Christ," and about what Todd does believe "wholeheartedly" about Jesus...[being] literally alive right now in some sort of "rainbow [and what this poetic imagery really means - literally - to Todd] body." AND I understand his concern that many people on this forum have preconceived ideas about the return that would make it impossible for them to gain the intended significance of any expression Todd might offer on the subject- resulting in unprofitable argument & strife. Even if Wierwille's expositions on the subject were entirely accurate (which arrogant claim even Wierwille never made - though he brooked no argument), much of the depth which he shared has been watered down - simplified to the point of being simplistic - simplistic to the point of innaccuracy. So, if "basically," Todd does not believe in a physical return, what is it about a "physical" return that would not seem basically physical to us that Todd DOES believe? Simply, I'm not now interested in what Todd does NOT believe, but in what he DOES believe. What is Jesus Christ's "rainbow" body? Can his hands cook fish? Allan, I'm not apologizing for putting Todd on the spot. I'm apologizing for bringing up the return, as Todd put it "at this point, on this [should Bullies win? about troll situations] thread," instead of on this (The Return of Christ Within) thread where it belongs. You seem to have complete disregard for being considerate about posts. You pirate posts regularly. That's inconsiderate, and it hinders conversations that people are having, not to mention any communication of the Word that people may be gaining. It is just flat unloving. Jesus never showed disregard for what was going on in the hearts of people. That piracy is part of what makes you a Bully. It is unfortunately ironic that my post, "putting Todd on the spot" as you described it, would give you opportunity to further Bully Todd on a thread about Bullying. Todd was sensitive to that potential cannonball shot to his thread on Bullying. It is much to his credit that he opened himself to that attack and answered my question honestly there on that thread. It was a sacrifice move on Todd's part. IMO, it was an amazingly Christlike thing to do Jesus was not about putting people on the spot, Allan; he was, and is, about making them whole - about showing them compassion (empathetic understanding) to the point that they willingly open their hearts from within, so they will express their concerns, questions, beliefs, & needs, and he can heal them. Putting people on the spot does just the opposite; it makes people defensive, it closes their hearts, it prevents healing. I'm highly in favor of that, Allan. I'm just trying to give Todd a loving invitation and opportunity to do the same. I have not set at nought the "hope" that is in his heart. I respect the "meekness and fear" with which he is trying to express it. And I expect to learn a lot about my hope (and yours) should Todd grace me with a PM response. Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Anyway, the post belonged here; that's what I was apologizing for.

Yes, that was a mistake, Todd - sorry about that - thanks for jumping in anyway. Well, so here I've moved it over here where it belongs. Perhaps I should repost your whole reply here before I reply to your reply: For purposes of my reply, I'm going to chop up your post, so that I can address aspects in an order that seems to work. I'm sort of starting at the end with some things that fly in the face of some of what you said about linguistics and working backwards, but give me a listen, & I think I will soon mitigate some of your linguistic concerns. Communicate as simply and directly as you can. When you can, give up talking about what you believe; state your belief. In any case, don't talk about anything other than what you believe; for example, "about language itself." I love your poetic sense, and I find your open-handed inquiry extremely engaging and effective, BUT there is a place for everything. And for the purpose of communicating what you believe about the return, these staples of your linguistic arsenal leave you feeling "still quite lost." You understand "integral semiotics." Don't talk about integral semiotics; utilize what you know about it. You know more about what terms mean to the readers on this forum (signifieds, many of them shared) than almost any other human being alive, and you have extremely high verbal acquity. I believe you can positively state (sans what it is not - sans poetic imagery) what you believe about the nature of the return of Christ in as manner that will communicate. Sure we've only begun to scratch the surface. Sure people will misinterpret what you say. The truths of the Word are refined within a whole lot of text, & people still misinterpret them. Even if we understood the whole Word texturally, heartwise, via the spirit - we'd still only know a very small portion of the nature of the return of Christ but we can still communicate simply. I don't mean to negate your concerns that the various signifieds in the minds of readers on this forum might preclude what your trying to get across and engender confusion and strife. That's a real concern. Hey, PM me. I'd enjoy an open discussion with you about Christ's "rainbow" body. You ARE going to have to communicate it you know - at least to yourself. What do you say? Love ya, brother

Danny, this sounds like a wonderful thing, but I'm wondering - okay, I'll bite (why do I feel like I'm going to regret this question?), what does this have to do with the doctrine of speaking in tongues?

Not revelation, or word of knowledge or word of wisdom or a sign or a miracle. Definitely a wonder, though. "I wonder - was it "revelation" in the case of Allan protecting his daughter - or a heightened state of parental instinct?" WonderS!

I read it. I remember it. I've been involved in some of the stuff that was in it. I know others who have also.

I was just thinking & came to greasespot looking for you Todd - my thoughts would be good to chat with you about. Well, you're not here, but lo & behold, this thread is. Which is more real? Our lives as we know them or God's thoughts on us? God is the fountain of living waters. We are living water poured out. Before we flowed out, we were with God in his thoughts. We were the thinking of God. Though our life in this flesh ends, yet we will be in God's thoughts. How is it that we will awaken, called forth from the grave, again to know life - not only again to know life, but to have a sense that it is really ourselves even though the soul life we have now will not be the life we have then. How can this be? Only because God will remember us, and, again, our lives will flow forth from Him, the fountain of living waters. So I say that our sense of ourselves, no matter how deep, is not as real as God's thoughts. To have a sense of the living water that we are is to, or rather may be to, sense the years of desire and the surety of eternity that resides in the heart of God concerning us and everything else that he thinks about. We were made flesh, but begotten (not made) of the Father. We came out from what God is. Before we came out, we were still of Him in Him. We just hadn't come out yet. Remember?

I'm copying this from another thread here in the doctrinal area, but I think it addresses the usefulness of speaking in tongues. If you Romans 8:26&27 deal with speaking in tongues, as I do, then this post that I'm pasting may be right in ascribing a significance to speaking in tongues that connects with everything spiritual that we've received and will receive. Think about it. It only makes sense that a spiritual infusion would do that, no? Here's the post: Romans 8:24 For we are saved by [by, to, or in] hope... It is the hope that will make us whole - inside & out. Romans 8:26 ¶In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses... The Spirit in the same way - in what same way? In the same way as the hope. The Spirit does what like the hope? also helps our weaknesses: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Just like the hope will make us whole, so the Spirit doing is the hope making us whole now because Christ in you IS the hope. And He who searches the hearts knows what is on the Spirit's mind, because he makes intercession for the saints according to God. The intercession of the Spirit is a heart (inside) thing. It is the hope of glory straight from the mind of God to our hearts - now. I believe the rest of Romans chapter 8 swings on the truth that intercession brings our hope of wholeness, the glorified Jesus Christ, into our heart lives now... Because whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers, and whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified. All the way through to being more than conquerors. It is the hope coming into our lives now through spiritual intercession. Chapters 9 - 11 are a parenthesis, so that we may read chapter 12 as continuing on from the end of 8. Romans 12:1 Therefore... What's the "therefore" there for? It refers to energizing of the spiritual intercession of chapter 8 which brings Christ in you, the hope of glory into your lives now. ...I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God... It is the mercies of God that intercession brings the hope into our lives now helping the weakness of our flesh that doesn't even know what to pray for in the things which beset us. ... to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God. The renewing of the mind is acknowledging that spiritual intercession enables the hope of glory to live in our hearts now, that God via the spirit can do for us and in us what we cannot do for ourselves. It transforms us. It is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God happening. It is the measure of faith. The rest of chapter 12 goes from that basis into the functioning of the members of the one body overcoming evil with good, and from Romans, we go into the rest of the church epistles - ALL swinging on the hope coming into the inner life of our hearts through the spiritual intercession of Christ there. Overcome evil with the good that God works in your heart through Christ's life there, for we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. So, carry on, Tom

Hi Ex, Thanks for the welcome. I love you too, sweetheart. Always , Tom

Yes, I got your question. In the area I'm talking about - Long Island, the sex & drugs didn't come in - okay, let me back up here. I was absolutely a heroin junkie when I got involved with TWI. My street senses were honed to the max, & I was in the middle of what was going on with TWI (in LI). If there were any drugs happening, I would have known. Not saying there weren't any anywhere, but it just wasn't happening - if you know what I mean. What was happening was that people like me, & lighter users, were going straight & turning on to the power of God. Perez on LI told me that anything that could ever happen that had anything genuine about it with Acid or any other drug, God could & would trump. Any drug user could relate to that sell. I could. And God backed it up. I was like the ultimate questioner when I got involved. Maybe I was a real pain, I don't know. I remember the 1st time I saw Steve Heefner. He taught at a fellowship down someone's basement in LI. After his teaching, we touched base on the stairway there. I asked question after question for about 20 minutes, & all Steve did was answer them, answer them, answer them. He had to know how hungry I was. He filled me up for 20 minutes, & said he had to go, & he would see me in Rye on Sunday. Damn straight he would. I thought I had done a fairly good job of kickin H after I got involved with fellowship - course people kick the physical habit time & time again, & the experience SUCKS, but they havent' taken care of what they need, so they go back. Yeah, & that's really stupid, & every time is worse than the last. Anyway, at this point, I was pretty convinced that these people had real power (I had been involved in some fairly amazing ESP, & some basic, but real magic - I knew there was spiritual power around), but I was still pretty confused about the difference between the genuine & the counterfeit. I was really uptight about witnessing. I ran into someone at that time who had some good H, & I copped a nice fat hit from him from which I got a "righteous" high (excuse the slang). Next thing I know, I'm witnessing all over town without any fear, having an awesome day. Call it counterfeit if you will, I don't care; it's not my point. That night, I'm finally at home; it's been a great day, & I'm reading the Word before I go to sleep - still nodding out from the H as I do so. Right then, I'm visited by a spirit, complete with classic banshee laugh/scream, chains rattling, vocal deal from the devil - if you do this, I'll do that - the whole freakin bit. Well, I've never had anything like this happen, I'm freaked out. I rebuke him in the name of Jesus Christ (which is always supposed to work). He laughs at me - LAUGHS at me. Now I'm really freaked out. I ask God to show me a way out. That's when the spirit offered "if you do this, I'll do that ." Well, I'm a junkie - I know that if there was ever a set up, that was it, & I tell the spirit that he is a liar. Blam, he leaves. Next day is Sunday fellowship in Rye, NY. BE THERE ON TIME (You Rye people have to be able to relate to Steve's efforts to get us there on time.) I'm still messed up from the day before, & I show up late. As I come up to the double doors there, & open them as quietly as I can ( I know how to open doors quietly), I hear Steve finishing up his opening prayer. His next words are "...and I thank you God for rebuking the effects of the drug heroin," and, immediately I feel like as if I never had gotten high. As Steve said that, & as I moved quietly up the isle, Steve Perez, the guy who was moving it oni LI, turned around & looked at me. Perez knew, Heefner knew, the Holy Spirit knew, & I knew. Watching Steve work with God was the way a lot of us learned how to walk. He was just so open about it, & if you had your eyes open, you learned how to do stuff. So, I'm all healed from the heroin, the teaching is amazing, but I'm still worried about the spirit and the banshee laugh. I'm POSSESSED!!! Yeah, funny, right. After the fellowship, I make my way to the back where Steve is. Wow, we're alone. I start telling him about the night before, & when I get to the laugh, he cuts me off. He doesn't want to hear it; he's heard it before himself. Its a spirit of witchcraft, & he doesn't want to hear my version of the scream. And he starts to walk away. Holy cow, how can he leave me like this? I start to stutter, & finally I get it out, "Don't you think maybe that I still need deliverance from this spirit?" As soon as I get the courage to say that, I feel totally delivered. I dont say anything to that effect to Steve, but right after I got the deliverance, Steve says to me that he thinks that I just got it - which, of course, I just did. Well, there I am, jumping & leaping & praising God on my way out. But the point is that you don't fool Holy Spirit. The move of the Word at that point wasn't happening because people were turned on by drugs & sex. Drugs & sex were being moved out by Holy Spirit. It was after the back to back classes stopped that drugs and sex came into the LI fellowship. Really - I remember the back to back classes, I remember the drugs coming back in, & I remember the sex coming into the fellowship. And it was after the back to back classes, and as the rift between HQ & Heefner & Perez started to happen. That was a good question & a damn good answer.

The thing that is weird about all this - & I agree with everything that's been said basically ("basically," one of Wierwille's favorite words. If you say "basically," you can follow it with anything you want, & your have CYA :) ); heck, I posted some of it - is that I have to say that I still think that I saw VPW do some snappy (what was snappy to me, & I don't think I was fooled by a dog & pony show - not that there wasn't a dog & pony show going on) things spiritually. Another thing: When I was on the rez, we were studying Ephesians (hi all you 5th Corps, 1st Recognized Corps, 1st Special Corps, 1st Family Corps - they had a real hard time categorizing a lot of us didn't they?), & I have to say that I gained a fairly comprehensive (if somewhat surface; hmm, somewhat surface - is there such a thing as a surface comprehensive understanding?) understanding of Ephesians. Now, a lot of that understanding, no doubt, came about because I was reading the whole book three times a day for a whole year as part of the program (well, pretty much once a day, twice quite a bit, three times sometimes - were we really reading the thing three times a day?) Anyway, VP said later that if we did that, we would gain an understanding of what the revelation was trying to convey, AND THAT would enable us to understand all the other church epistles much more readily - that a deep understanding of any one church epistle would bring that benefit. I think that happened. That really seems to be a bad move for the adversary - if indeed, Wierwille was the adversary's man from the gate to screw up the move of the Word as has been posited on this thread. Not that I don't believe that insight - as I said I basically go along with everything that has been posted here so far. Isn't that a conundrum? I'm thinking that we're all God's men & women (God says so, doesn't he), & we're all the adversary's people (he'll take whatever we still give him, & leverage it as far as he can). Betcha Solomon has something to say about this, but I know that he says that there is nothing better than that a man should eat & drink... It is the gift of God. And dinners ready. Still putting it together, Tomo

I think that when people say it was over - at least this is what I think - that refers to the fact that the leaven was in, & it was only a matter of time till the whole was leavened. You're definitely right about the numbers going higher between about '75 & '80, but a lot of that movement was generated from the hearts of people that wanted to see what happened in the early '70's happen again. And you're also correct that as the leaven was posited first in the center, HQ, it moved further and farther out from there (that is both in the expansion and the degree of the iron legalism - the leaven). But the increase that was happening in the early '70's was never duplicated. We were all over bars & parties - I mean sometimes we took them over. I remember a young lady at fellowship said that she believed we should all go to this apartment where she had visited the night before where people were all tripping on LSD - that she thought there would be fruit there. We went there a couple of times. The second night, I told everyone at the party what we were all into - a short nutshell version of the giving of holy spirit. The girl who said we should go there spoke in tongues & interpreted (it was cool - I knew in my spirit that she would - it was sweet working with people in a synched up relationship like that). A guy on the couch sitting next to her, tripping, went into convulsions, & she ministered to him. He stopped convulsing, & went to sleep as she was ministering. Then I spoke in tongues and interpreted. Then one of the tripping partiers spoke in tongues and interpreted - & I have to tell you, the messages were amazing - God was there working with us - no boring messages. In Long Island, we had PDSTRO playing in bars. They played at parks - impromptu. I mean we knew they were going to play, but no one else did. We had what we called guerilla theater that we also did impromptu whether in a park or a college student center. You needed 30 new students to have a film class. From the time there were like, I don't know, 20-30 people in fellowship, for over a year, we ran film classes back to back. Sometimes in the beginning, there were more new students than grads. By the time the years between '75 & '80 came around, it should have exploded in a manner - well, the increase in numbers that was seen then was - I'm sorry, I'm lost for words here. stupid analogy - it was like a rocket ship exploding off the launch pad on the way to Mars, having the navigation system malfunction, and screeching to a halt in the desert while the people in the desert looked on & said, "Wow, that was cool!" Compared to what would have happened had the ship went where it was supposed to - my God, who knows. Not to discredit the true experiences of those who walked with God in that desert or before or after. But that's what I think. Future hasn't happened yet, & the fat lady hasn't sung. Tom

Thank you, dancer. Then the day has started out well.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by [by, to, or in] hope... It is the hope that will make us whole - inside & out. Romans 8:26 ¶In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses... The Spirit in the same way - in what same way? In the same way as the hope. The Spirit does what like the hope? also helps our weaknesses: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Just like the hope will make us whole, so the Spirit doing is the hope making us whole now because Christ in you IS the hope. And He who searches the hearts knows what is on the Spirit's mind, because he makes intercession for the saints according to God. The intercession of the Spirit is a heart (inside) thing. It is the hope of glory straight from the mind of God to our hearts - now. I believe the rest of Romans chapter 8 swings on the truth that intercession brings our hope of wholeness, the glorified Jesus Christ, into our heart lives now... Because whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers, and whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified. All the way through to being more than conquerors. It is the hope coming into our lives now through spiritual intercession. Chapters 9 - 11 are a parenthesis, so that we may read chapter 12 as continuing on from the end of 8. Romans 12:1 Therefore... What's the "therefore" there for? It refers to energizing of the spiritual intercession of chapter 8 which brings Christ in you, the hope of glory into your lives now. ...I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God... It is the mercies of God that intercession brings the hope into our lives now helping the weakness of our flesh that doesn't even know what to pray for in the things which beset us. ... to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God. The renewing of the mind is acknowledging that spiritual intercession enables the hope of glory to live in our hearts now, that God via the spirit can do for us and in us what we cannot do for ourselves. It transforms us. It is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God happening. It is the measure of faith. The rest of chapter 12 goes from that basis into the functioning of the members of the one body overcoming evil with good, and from Romans, we go into the rest of the church epistles - ALL swinging on the hope coming into the inner life of our hearts through the spiritual intercession of Christ there. Overcome evil with the good that God works in your heart through Christ's life there, for we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. So, carry on, Tom

Oh, okay; I take it back. You're a real sweetheart, Allen - a real contributor to the quality of life around here. Pffft

To the many hospice workers, thank you for the fine and compassionate work you do. As family fortunate to have hopice workers care for my own, I can only say that you understand an area of life that is understood by very few and handle the hearts involved with amazing love and skill. I'm in awe of your hearts and your lives.

"Tom..if you don't have a problem with people using profane language then I guess that says a little about you as a person. What part don't you get ??" All those books you've read, Wow; but still can't read too well, huh? Too bad, so sad. It wasn't Todd who used profane language; it was dancer. Oh, where's a good profane word when you need one? No, I don't too much mind a little profane language. Some people merit profane language. It's profane people that I mind. They're the people who merit profane language. "Do you want me to just scan and post all the books for you and at the end I can say "this is what I believe" ??!! If you don't know what it is about pfal that I believe then maybe Mike is right...go back and master the stuff." For someone who has mastered the stuff, you think you'd be able to at least get some of it to come out of your mouth. The Word says concerning those who hear the words of the wise, and apply their hearts unto knowledge, that it is a pleasant thing if you keep them within you; that they shall, together with this, be fitted in your lips. Either you don't keep the words of PFAL within you, they're not the words of the wise, or you don't apply your heart to the knowledge they have, because they're sure not coming out of your mouth. Which makes you - what? "I shudder to think what you whisper in the ears of the terminally ill you work with before they take their last breath." No, you don't. Your mind lusts after the iniquity that you imagine. It is what drives you to continue in it even though you don't know what the hell you're talking about.