Tom

Figures are truer to truth than the literal, but all the words are alive. Literal words are still spiritual if God breathes them and the truth of them still means more than the words convey - but we digress.

Oops, the action is going too fast - this post was meant to come after my post above - But I still think you may need to, umm, grow in your appreciation of language in particular with regard to your understanding of when it is figurative and when it is literal. Language really is, or ought to be, self-interpreting. Mature language is more deliberate and precise in the manner in which it twists words into unusual figures than I suspect you give it credit for. And, again, God's words are purified. God's revelation of His Word to your spirit won't nullify that quality of His written Word; indeed, His revelation and His Word dance together to the delight of God and His order in all the Universe.

Agreed - absolutely.

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever. If it is written, it is revealed so that we can know what God is trying to say to us. Paul writes, "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." If it is revealed, it is no longer waiting in the hand of the Lord. If it is revealed, it is a shame not to know it. Death = no life. We're not talking a "seven-eyed blood-covered lamb who reads books" here that it should be taken figuratively. C'mon, we're talking "death," and "air." I'm not saying that everything in the bible is literal - why do you - sirguessalot, make it out like I am? Rank tactic. Sounds like you just want to be free to think whatever you want as the "spirit" moves you. Sorry, words mean things, & you can't just go around calling it literal when you want & figurative when you don't like it & think you're not going to lose a grip on true meaning. Language is more orderly than that, & the words of the Lord are purified. I'm sorry; I don't want to be rude, but it seems like you're being silly to me. Hopefully, that's just my perception, & it's wrong. I'd better call it a night, & go to sleep - REAL sleep. God bless & good will. Tom

I don't see that you have any reason not to believe that these scriptures mean what they say literally. Death is real. "meeting the Lord in the air how close is the air?" Is there a reason for this question? In the air is about as simple as it gets. Because it doesn't say exactly 100' in the air doesn't make it figurative nor subject to whatever your mind wants to make it. Your mind is not the arbiter of truth. We'll meet him in the air, &, if you are dead when it happens, you'll really be dead, and you'll really be raised up. "how is it seen where is it seen when is it seen" But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

And do you hear trumpets when you die before you die too? And are they all the last trumpet also? And are those trumpets just some more of those perceptions regarding the last ememy, death - experiential trumpets, but not really trumpets, trumpeting in the last enemy, death, which is really not an enemy, but is only perceived to be an enemy and is really not death either?

The question was "and why does this being raised have to be a group thing?" The answer seems simple - it happens "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump." No? One moment, THE twinking - there is only one last trump.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump?

Any validity in reading the NT in the light of death before dying notwithstanding, the light which the lamp unto our feet shines forth concerning death in the section on the last enemy to be destroyed seems to clearly be an exposition concerning simple old physical death.

Death is the last enemy to be destroyed. It hasn't been defeated - yet. ...when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then [not now] shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Indeed! ...To know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

I'm glad you like it. The original quote is "What lies ahead of us and what lies behind us are insignificant compared to what lies within us" …Oliver Wendell Holmes. I suppose I should change it back to the original quote & give credit to Oliver Wendell Holmes.

VP explained the mountain thing in the Advanced Class differently than he did in the foundational. In the Advanced Class, he explained the "have the believing of God" as God giving revelation concerning the removal of the mountain - if God gives you revelation that you can remove the mountain, you can say so & believe it & it will happen. Foundational class students supposedly weren't ready for that "deeper" interpretation. They needed to be founded in believing in the principle of believing before they could move on. I agree with the Advanced Class interpretation, but I disagree that it was deeper; it was different. The foundational interpretation was believing in believing; the advanced was believing in God's direction to individuals who believe in Him. I also disagree with his logic about withholding the "deeper" interpretation from foundational students. He just lied to them. I'm not sure why.

Dan, it's an Italian manuscript meant only for Irish eyes; although, beneficial to all Venician blind people. To them, the verses are "clearly" added by scribes.

Here is an interesting album: John Lee Hooker, Sheryl Crow, Sting, BB King, Eric Clapton, Miles Davis, Sting, Luciano Pavarotti - others I can't bring to mind - playing with this Italian sensation, Zucchero. If you like these artists, give the album a listen. It's a real multicultural mix. Some lyrics are in English, some in Italian, some in Spanish, some in all three. Blues, rock, and opera are in there. The first time I listened to it, I liked it. The more I listened to it, the more I liked it, but I can only take it in certain doses because the songs have a tendency to run through my mind for days. I'm afraid to get too deeply into them, afraid I won't be able to get them out of my mind for too long - but then, after I haven't heard them for a while, I want to hear them again. A sort of Supreme pizza of music - give it a taste. Tom

I appreciate your feedback, Belle - it's very inspirational. I'll keep going on it. Thanks, Tom

Regarding offenses, it must be recognized that we've been talking about two different things here. One is giving offense; the other is people being offended. Jesus said that anyone who wasn't offended in him was blessed. Paul said before Caesar's judgment seat, "Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all." Obviously, taking into account where Paul made that statement - Caesar's judgment seat - many to whom Paul offended nothing at all as he preached Jesus Christ, were nevertheless offended. It is inevitable that offenses will come. Some people will be offended at Jesus Christ no matter how inoffensively he is presented. That the one who was delivered for our offenses should be offensively preached, or that those, who being inoffensively told about the one who was delivered for their offenses, should take offense at the message - both are supremely ironic. "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift."

Actually, I suppose this isn't the place for that kind of post - I guess maybe that wasn't what you were asking for or what you expected.

Well, I don't know how well the formatting will copy, but here is the beginning: This is a work of truth. The details of the work will be argued by many of those involved, and, had every detail been open to them before the final copy, the record would, no doubt, have been more accurate. The names of many of the characters, places, and organizations in this novel have been changed to protect the guilty. THE PARTY PALS 1 LET THE PARTY BEGIN LEVITOWN SUNDAY, NOV. 6, 1949 2:00 P.M. Proverbs 25:16 ¶Hast thou found honey? eat so much as is sufficient for thee, lest thou be filled therewith, and vomit it. He sucked the liquid, sweet and warm but with a cool current running through it, into his belly where it felt good. There is no more basic human act – except perhaps crying. Sucking, he watched the people all around him smiling, laughing, and poking his stomach gently, wanting him to see them, pleased with him, amazed at his life.  Oh, what a beautiful boy you are!  Look at him smile.  Such a good boy!  He is a good boy, mother said, scratching him behind his ear as he drank and started to make little “mm” noises, his whole chest and head, his whole world, vibrating with pleasure.  He loves his milk. Gradually, sucking and watching, he realized that they were watching him suck and fill himself, knowing he was doing so. His personal act was now a public show, a joining engendering approval. The more he drank, the more energetic became their approval. When the bottle was empty, the approval waned and some left the joining. He could drink more; urgently he cried now for more.  I think that’s enough for now. Mother didn’t want to give him more; more urgently he cried for more, demanded more. Mother followed Dr. Spock religiously. Before Tom was born, his older brother, Mike, had everything done on schedule according to Dr. Spock. He was taken out in his stroller on schedule – even if there was a blizzard. Michael was fed on schedule – whether he was hungry of not. Three and a half years later, Dr. Spock had changed his mind. Little Tommy got his milk whenever he wanted and anything else he wanted, whenever he wanted. More milk came, and the joining continued once more. What small degree of openness and approval the joining may have lost because of his wailing it made up for by increased amazement. He felt his stomach fill to full and still he drank, felt it travel quickly up the inside of his chest and still he drank till it filled his mouth and overflowed onto everything only then feeling his stomach heave. My dad says my mom and I have addictive personalities. I don’t know; it’s the only personality I have. One of the nuns said in elementary school that she didn’t know what I was going to be when I grew up, but whatever I got involved in, I would pursue it with all my heart. My mom says she doesn’t remember anything like the milk incident ever happening; she thinks maybe I dreamed it. I don’t know that either, but it doesn’t seem to matter much to me. Either way, that’s the way I remember it. It’s my life and my story. And I’m sticking to it. But maybe I’ll change it. Well - that's the beginning. People seem to like the later criminal incidents type writing - my friend, Carmine seems especially popular, but that's all in note form or, if it is in story form, needs dialogue & fleshing out - I've a long way to go. Thanks for asking, Belle. Tom

Belle, I have a group of friends that started to form in the fourth grade. We went through grade school, high school, & college, "gang" fighting, freakdom, Woodstock, peace, hard drugs, cops & robbers, & God. After TWI & I came to the parting of the ways, I called them up & frankly apologized for being an ******* - in losing contact with them. Of course, they readily forgave me; they're my friends. Being an ******* is common territory. We discussed back somewhen whether we wanted to be an official gang with jackets & colors or not. We decided instead to all just buy black leathers, chip in money, & have a party whenever we had enough. We called ourselves the Party Pals. I don't think we ever got together without partying. Now we get together once a year in NY - and party. We are the classic NY group of friends. We've decided to get together every year even until there is only one of us left - at which time that one will lift a drink and toast the Party Pals once a year. I'm writing a book about us. It's called The Party Pals. Call your friends. Family is special. But friends - you choose your friends. I don't know how deep your friendship goes, but if you have friends who love you, call them, sweetheart.

Well, of course! The bread thing is only gravity - butter is denser than bread. The cats always land on their feet thing is instinct - cats turn themselves around - and cats are denser than either bread or butter. I mean, c'mon, wouldn't you? Think about it. If you were dropped from a five story building head first, wouldn't YOU turn YOURSELF around? And if someone pasted buttered bread to the top of your head - buttered side up, of course, do you really think the butter or the bread or which was on top of which would keep you from turning around? Okay, having said all that, I think that this thread should be closely monitored by parents; children DO try this stuff out by dropping cats & kittens out of windows.

Good question, Cool. I should have been clearer. I was thinking of the spirit from God in children of God via the new birth. I'll answer that this "God" is "the God presented in the bible" with the understanding that He is a kindred spirit to the new birth spirit with the interpretation that I gave above. Again, I don't believe that spirit I have within has within its nature the misuse and abuse of people - the abuses of people involved notwithstanding. I don't think you've been anything but intelligent and gracious here, Cool. The question came up because I wasn't more detailed in my post. Tom

I think the bottom line was that we were being accessed and used. I don't believe the spirit that delivered me has that potential within the nature of its power; the misuses and abuses of men notwithstanding. Therein lies the defining diffence - or one of them - between what I would call good & evil. The closer I got to leaving the powers I was fooling with alone and turning to the true, the more they revealed their nasty nature as nice as they seemed and as beneficently as they fit into my philosophy beforehand. Tom

I still love the story.

"That isn't spell casting, though." Not all of it, but take two situations: 1) Someone follows something they were told would work - maybe they read about it, maybe someone told them, maybe there was an incantation, some words to say, some things to do something with. Something is supposed to happen - and nothing happens. 2) Take an individual or a group of people who think that basically what you see is what you get and that they are in control of what's going on. Take them to a place where are aware that there is a power that knows what they are thinking, what they are doing and will do, what they do in their bedroom, that maybe is there while they're doing it, maybe in some participatory way, that maybe this power is more in control of what's happening in their minds and lives than they are - and have that actually be the case. In which case would you be more disposed to think that there is a spell working? I know that I'm sharing more than I did in the previous post. Do I think it is evil? When people can call to others across the country and have them travel to the other side of the country drawn by a mental, spiritual, sexual pull - when others know what is going on in your bed because they are in the spirit that you're in with while doing the deed - yes, I think that is evil. Likewise, when people can communicate for hours without speech, but as a result, have a harder time talking to each other - because of the spiritual spin that can be put upon words - any words spoken, I think that is evil. More and more, I got the distinct feeling that we were pawns in someone else's parlor game - and our well-being - or our "fun" wasn't always the result. I still had no suspicion about witchcraft. Several weeks after getting involved with the Word, I was "visited" by out loud - really loud - voices, chains rattling, the banshee witch cry/laugh, and deals being offered to me or else. Shortly after that I was delivered by the limb leader who knew the cry from personal experience. I remember watching The Wizard of Oz one year in which the show was dedicated to all those who had watched it every year for the previous 20 years that it had been aired. If I wasnt one of them, I was close. I remember one of my friends making fun of the good witch; one of the little kids who was watching immediately and angrily jumped to defend her honor. Now, I don't remember whether I ever looked at the good witch as a role model, but how could I not have? One would have to be mean-hearted or past the age of a child's suspension of disbelief NOT to look at the good witch as a role model - although kids don't recognize the concept. Now I don't think the cry of the Wicked Witch of the West is any more just the simple product of the imagination of the author than I think the poppy field the trio fell asleep in was just a field of flowers. The phony wizard with his powerless certificates didn't invalidate the "spiritual realities" in the story any more than our MOG with his "certificates" of graduation. IMO, neither do the fantastic elements in The Wizard of Oz make the basic "realities" they are supposed to represent any less "real."