Tom

By WANDA WALKER for the Beauregard Daily News Copy Editor [Ms. Walker wrote about War of the Worlds in which Martians decide to invade Earth at the point when the planet is closest to Earth, then she wrote...] In real life, the Red Planet is going to be the closest to earth in recorded history. Earth is catching up with Mars in a close encounter. Due to the way Jupiter's gravity tugs on Mars and perturbs its orbit, astronomers can only be certain that Mars has not come this close to Earth in the last 5,000 years, but it may be as long at 60,000 years before it happens again. The encounter will culminate on Aug. 27, when Mars comes to within 34,649,589 miles of the Earth and will be (next to the moon) the brightest object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of -2.9 and will appear 25.11 arch seconds wide, at a modest 75-power magnification. Mars will look as bright as the full moon to the naked eye and will be easy to spot. At the beginning of August it will rise in the east at 10 p.m. and reach it's azimuth at about 3 a.m. By the end of August when the two planets are closest, Mars will rise at nightfall and reach its highest point in the sky at 12:30 a.m. Children of all ages will enjoy watching at the beginning of August to see Mars grow progressively brighter and brighter throughout the month. No one alive today will ever see this again.

Thanks a lot, ckeer; I just purchased the latest version of RedShift off Ebay for $18.99, including shipping - thanks for the tip; I'm looking forward to it. Hafta take a look - I'll let you know what, if anything, I find - Tom

I, also, was hoping Zix would show up, but I wanted to leave it open to whomever.

There is a conjunction of Mercury, Venus, and Saturn going on that can been seen in the North, Northwestern sky about 45 minutes after dusk these days. I can't see it because of lights & houses - maybe I'll find a place where I can view it - but I figured out how to use a program I had downloaded a while ago call Celestia. I think this is a rather remarkable program, especially since it is free. With this program, among other wonderful things, one may position oneself anywhere pretty much in the known Universe and view anything else from that perspective - and one can change the time. So, I positioned myself about 3 miles above where I live, in synchronised orbit, and took a look at Saturn, and; sure enough, there were Venus and Mercury nearby. Sooo, I thought to myself, how about going back to the years that are listed in Jesus Christ, Our Promised Seed for the heavenly events surrounding the birth of Jesus Christ, positioning myself in the places VPW talked about, and seeing if the heavenly events he wrote about show up. Unfortunately, the program only goes back to September of 1752 - drats! But remarkable as this program is to me, it is still ony a free program usable by any layperson - with some fuguring out, and I'm thinking, "Surely, there must be other, more powerful programs out there for true followers of Astronomy." How about it? Any of you with a real interest in Astronomy ever take a virtual tour back to the times VPW talked about to see whether the heavenly events he talked showed up or not? Or perhaps you've not done the virtual tour, but researched his research for yourself? Do tell. Thanks, Tom

Great story! Stupid animals? Hardly. We might know things that they don't know, but they definitely know things that we don't know - things that take intelligence that we don't have. I recently adopted a couple of dogs. Badger, the male, is always on the job, protecting. Wherever I am, he is between me and the door. If there are two doors, he is positioned equidistant from both. I've been off from work this summer, and I've been home a lot. It has really given me the opportunity to see how smart these dogs are. One thing I've noticed is that if they are not playing, many times they may LOOK like they're sleeping, but they are LISTENING to EVERYTHING. The other day, I was in the master bedroom bathroom cleaning it. I noticed Badger was in the bedroom where he could see me and and see the bedroom door at the same time. After a while, he put his head down & closed his eyes. I came out of the bathroom & sort of kidded Badger & said, "Fine watch dog you are, sleeping away here; there is no way you could possibly know if someone was breaking in somewhere else in the house." You can tell if someone is sleeping or if they just have their eyes closed when they open them up. When I said that, Badger opened his eyes, and at the same time, Daisy, the other dog, opened hers. Neither was asleep. Daisy was in the living room where she could see both the front and the back entrances to the house. Badger was where he could see me and the entrance to where I was AND Daisy. Between the two of them, they had the whole place covered. How about an octopus? Coordinates eight totally flexible arms (no joints) at the same time, using them for balance, movement, AND communication with other octopi. Could you do that? I couldn't do that. You can't be stupid and do that. You have to be WAY intelligent to do that. And when they are communicating, they change colors to signify the emotional component of the communication. They experimented with them where they fed them and when they fed them, they turned on lights in the form of an "X." Then they stopped feeding them. The octopi came up to the glass where the experimentors were watching them and opened up their tentacles exposing their underparts upon which was showing the form of an "X." It wasn't as clear as the form of the "X" you're looking at on your computer screen, but it was undeniably an "X." There is a brilliance there that we can't approach. But if we are wise, we'll respect animals and the smart ones will work with us to build a working relationship that's, well, just really priceless. Well, it's late. My dogs have been patient. I'm going to take them out for a walk. How much you want to bet they realize more of what's going on in the neighborhood on this walk than I do? But that's not the best part. It's not about them. And it's not about me. But consider the three of us. I could just be the alpha male and get them to do whatever, but instead I'll piggy back on their awareness of what's going on - they'll realize I'm doing that and be even more disposed to let me guide them.

Oh, I don't know about "no" clue, SF, but is it really a bad thing to have a lot to learn? I mean even while they were with the living Jesus daily, his own disciples had a hard time figuring out who he was. The "only begotten of the Father" - well it would be redundant to say he was unique. Now that same Jesus has been raised from the dead and made to be the head over all things to his body - us. Wow, what IS that all about? I don't doubt it, SF. I believe that TWI had a lot of the pieces or at least "talked" about them, but the pieces were all over the water - at least they certainly didn't fit together properly to float the boat. VPW made the statement that when Jesus was talking about the spirit that was to come, the comforter, that it would testify of Jesus - that it would reveal the glorified Christ to us and if we received the revelation that we would be transformed to be more and more like the glorified Christ. Now THAT would have been something worth spending God's precious time pursuing - our identification with Christ - his ID, our ID, their relationship, what's it all about - instead of spending all that time defending what we should and shouldn't do with our pants down & who should submit themselves to whom in the process. But the spirit is still here & it still works just fine & one of its functions is still to reveal the glorified Christ & what the body of Christ is all about to us - same way it did to Paul & with the help of its revelation to Paul to compliment its revelation to us. After all "The Teacher" isn't someone you write to in New Knoxville, OH if you have questions because Jesus said in Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi [master or teacher]: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. The true teacher is still teaching. John 16 Nevertheless I [Jesus] tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ... He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. "All things," might take a while :)--> You confessed him as Lord. He knows everything that he needs to concerning every part of his body of which you are a part. Let him teach you who you are in him. He is really good at it & he has these really cool learning tools. I mean the analogy of holy sprit being a battery in a car waiting for you to step on the gas peddle goes only so far - really. Time to let The Spirit itself bear witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. Okay, I feel myself getting preachy here. It's a good thing. We love him enough to tap the living water; we get transformed to the image of the glorified Jesus Christ. Sooner or later, Tom

I wouldn't take that remark so personally, krys. I'm guessing by the rest of your post that your Jesus is the same as my Jesus. If so, then mj's remark wasn't really made about your Jesus or my Jesus. I know mj keeps confusing my Jesus with the Jesus of TWI. Then, of course, there is mj's Jesus. It can get pretty confusing. I can understand her confusion. VPW kicked Jesus out of his position as head of the body and took his place - well, not really, but within the confines (yes, "confines" is a good word) of his "revelation" of the hierarchal Way Tree structure of TWI when he tried to incorporate the body of Christ. And he took the place of Christ - as did all his leadership by proxy (proxy: the authorization to act for another - the other no longer being the Lord Jesus Christ, but now Wierwille). The organic body of Christ was thus replaced - again only within the confines of TWI - with a mechanical model, The Way Tree. It had a form of godliness, but, more and more, it denied the power thereof. This was not the Jesus of the bible. To her credit, mj rejected this counterfeit Jesus, turning back to the best thing she knew no doubt. Thereby, she fulfilled the prophecy in Galatians 1:6-8, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." "...let him be accursed." That's exactly what mj did, and I applaud her for that. This "other Jesus" that was preached in TWI is the spirit of antichrist in action. Its purpose is to primarily keep people from the true Jesus Christ. This it accomplished very effectively within the pressure cooker of TWI. I don't know about anyone else here, but most of what I learned about the accomplishments of the true Jesus Christ, I learned in the days before the "way" was incorporated back in '72. Jesus Christ was very much in our minds, hearts, speech, songs, and actions. This got snuffed out little by little as the leaven of legalism moved throughout TWI. An actual relationship with a living Jesus Christ was forbidden more and more and holy spirit, rather than a seed opening to a living, spiritually alive brotherhood, became a freaky battery pack to be operated at will - as mj indicated. I dont know about others, but it wasn't until years after I left TWI that all that cover of the spirit of antichrist fell away as I listened to the words of a song by a brother in Christ with a vital relationship with the things of Jesus Christ going on in his life. The realization came flooding in - this is the Jesus that I knew, the one I've been ripped off from by TWI for years. Its been growing ever since. Everybody's experience is different. Were it not for some of what the believers taught me in the early days of TWI before its incorporation, the only thing I would have to revert back to would be my Catholic upbringing - something similar to mj. So, I dont care that she can't hear me or won't. Maybe she will. If not, so what? Sure, I'd appreciate it if she would stop confusing my Jesus with the oppressive monster that used TWI as a springboard to hurt God's people, but meanwhile I enjoy the opportunity to jack that monster around on a multitude of points he has used to misdirect a lot of people for a lot of years on a thread that at this point has been viewed 1,224 times. More than that, I enjoy glorifying the true Jesus Christ. Peter used the accusation that the apostles, speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost, were drunk, as a springboard to launch one of the most inspired teachings about what the gift of holy spirit is about. Nice! Something to learn from! Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Tom

Right, diazbro, Exorcism was taught as the Adversary's counterfeit casting out of spirits. In foundational PFAL, the account in Acts 19:13 is used where the man in who had the spirit wasn't delivered of the spirit, but the spirit answered back. "Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you," and the scripture goes on to say "the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded." Josephus talks about this rite of exorcism. Bullinger says that according to this rite one needed to either know the name of the devil spirit or invoke the name of a superior power or spirit to get the devil spirit out. The name invoked could be someone like Solomon or Abraham or it could be Jesus. Solomon and Abraham are dead; there is no authority in their names. The idea according to Wierwille was that the whole thing about exorcism was counterfeit. If the spirit that was being invoked to cast out the spirit in the possessed man, a devil spirit, was more powerful than the one that was in the man, it would appear to work - the spirit would leave. God knows what happened to the poor man who was "delivered." He would, no doubt, be worse off than before - although his further degradation might take some time to show itself, the Adversary; thereby, making the rite of exorcism look legitimate. However, if the spirit in the exorcist was NOT more powerful than the spirit in the possessed, then the spirit wouldn't leave. In the case in Acts and in PFAL "the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded." Not a good outcome in anybody's book! But "this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified," showing that all the Jews and Greeks dwelling at Ephesus were not fooled by the Adversary's counterfeit of casting out of devils known as exorcism. Well, at least THEY knew what was going on!! As a result, the whole thing about people coming & burning all their hookiepook bulldinkie doodle happened and the bottom line was "so mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." Dang, might be worth putting forth the effort to understand what went down there. Or not, you know, I'm just putting it down the way I understand it to have happened - just like you are. I do have to say that the way I just laid it out is the way I think it really is. WHATEVER!!! Hey, a guy and a girl are sitting on a couch and one of them says, "You know what the trouble is between you and me? You're an approximist and I'm a perfectionist." The other responds, "Whatever!" And the other, "Exactly!"

mj, I'm not sure why you have brought up that term here - has anyone used the word on this thread? I missed it, if so. A minister in the context of this thread is a person who attends to the wants and needs of others serving as an agent for Jesus Christ. First he receives from Jesus Christ things that Jesus has for people, then he gives those things to people as an agent for Jesus Christ. He ministers the things of Jesus Christ to people. More specifically, in the case of healing, he ministers (serves to people) the healing that Jesus Christ gives to him for them. I know it can seem egotistical to say that, but it is really the most humbling thing I know of. An example is where Peter said, "Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." Peter had it to give to the lame man. Where did he get it to give - from Jesus Christ. And in his name - acting for Jesus Christ with the things of Jesus Christ in hand, ie. healing - he gave it. Freely you have received; freely give. It's big, I know - but there are no specially favoured people here. It is for us all - we've just underestimated what Jesus accomplished.

Just because there is a spiritual fight going on doesn't mean the ministries always have to be losing. I'm sorry now that at the time I was too punk to ask George Jess for specifics. He didn't give me any, but I could tell by his language that he was seriously concerned that the outcome might not be good. Back in '72 VPW hadn't yet taken over some of the hottest areas via his "Way Tree Revelation." Areas still weren't centralized as far as the money and the "authority" went - depending on when and where in '72. There were some wonderful ministries in operation at the time. The spiritual action was intense. There was no losing. I was also impressed with how adeptly VPW walked by the spirit on a number of occasions back then & through the first half of the decade - you know, believe what you want. I think he just got greedy. A combination of that and not trusting people to carry on faithfully following the lead of the Lord Jesus Christ. Maybe he never did quite get his thinking out of the old wineskin mentality to see what the church could keep doing if someone didn't think they needed to assume the position of the Lord Jesus. Heck, I don't know. Maybe he realized that people might not be faithful at following HIS agenda. After all, with more and more people showing up - how long could he go around without any clothes on without too many people noticing, so he had to cya with doctrine that rationalized his behaviors. But I don't think he set out to consciously scam everybody. The human mind rationalizes our behavior. It's the nature of the thing. I think he really believed the doctrines he used to justify his behaviors. Anyway, that, & like I said, his greed - otherwise known as the love of power, you know - the root of all evil. I'm going to stop now - this is making me sick to my stomach. Oh, before I go, I have to agree with rascal about not blaming the people for idolizing VP & other leadership. VP took over the place of Christ and taught people to do that. Besides, they made a regular practice of blaming the "common" folk for things that were their own fault - like the ruin of a move of God that never really had a chance to explode into what it could have been. "Leadership" has already dumped way more blame on people than they deserve. Casting the dust off my feet - man, life is happening. How did we get onto this crud? Oh, that's right - I sent us there - Sheesh.

Yes, I do remember him. Way wack! I do remember that, and I don't doubt that both of those propositions were true, but I don't think that the Adversary infiltrated our ranks in the person of poor little A*. The infiltration was a lot more widespread than that - it was freakin' systemic throughout TWI as far as I can see. God bless, babe. If I can help you ferret through any of this, I'll be glad to, but it is pretty comprehensive, pretty much what this website is all about - only from a spiritual persective. I'm not pretending that I have it all together in my head. I remember riding with George Jess to the Advanced Class at HQ in '72, and he brought up Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. And he asked me what I thought the Word meant when it said "high places." Somewhere I had heard that it meant "from on high," but even as I said it, I thought my own answer was extremely unsatisfying. It doesn't mean a heck of a lot that God - or anybody - would take the time to insert those words. He said it meant the upper echelons in the ministry - that the spiritual fight was among the ruling gift ministries in the body. We're all in this fight, but his remarks resonate more the longer I live. How high do you want to go - there is a serious fight going on there. That's where TWI lost it. "PDSTRO had a line in one of their songs that went, "The nakedness is so real; keep your thoughts on love." Love, Tom

You may end the statement right there, but Jesus didn't. Mark 16:17,18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. I felt that your remarks were directed at Lorna and myself since we were both basically saying the same thing that Jesus said above - sorry if I was wrong. I'll speak for myself. People's believing doesn't have the power to bring to pass the kind of healing that we are speaking about - unless they're believing according to the working of God's mighty power which he put in Christ whom he gave to be the head over all things to his body all the fullness of Christ in every individual. That's power. My Jesus never prayed for anyone to be healed, and my Jesus never told his disciples to pray to heal people. My Jesus "...sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick - Luke 9:2." My Jesus told them to "...heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you - Luke 10:9." My Jesus said "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." And when my Jesus told people to heal people, they did, and it worked. Luke 9:6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where. Luke 10:17 ¶And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. Acts 28:8 ...Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him. If your Jesus says that people healing people is magic, sick thinking, and egotistical, but people praying for people is cool, then you'll have to ask your Jesus why it doesn't work.

So do I. I can see why you think we are full of ego if you think we think God loves us more than the rest. But that's not our thinking. What I don't see is why you think we think God loves us more than the rest. You're the one saying that God decides to heal some and not others. THAT seems whimsicle to me, yet I'm not all up in your computer screen calling your thinking sick. Please don't project your personal anger onto me. Jesus is a non-discriminatory sacrifice. He got his face bashed in beyond recognition so that everyone could be healed and heal in his name. You're free to argue with that. I'd rather accept it. Your rejection doesn't make my acceptance a matter of discrimination on God's part, does it?

Lorna, Please let me clarify. I absolutely agree with what you're saying. I just felt that I had to clarify that we don't have the option to heal any ole time we feel like it because we still, like Jesus did, see the Father work and we work, and we still can do nothing without him. I just had to clarify who the prime mover is in all this - to keep the ego out. Which I did. As did you - admirably. When people marvel that God has given such power to people, God gets the glory - again, Matthew 9:8 above. When God has not empowered people - because HE IS ALL POWERFUL, then people are powerless. It seems to be humbly ascribing all power to God, but it also ascribes all sickness to God - or it just leaves us without answers. Hmm, okay, let me see - either God sucks or umm I don't know what else it could be. Aah, I'd rather see healing. Really, I promise that God will get the glory - like WAY more glory than if people don't get healed. Ah, um, well, yeah - you said a lot there and as I look at it, ah, um, well, yeah - you're absolutely right, Lorna. Thanks a lot for pointing those things out - you've put it together, thanks for speaking up. Wayward, Every time we are sick, it is NOT because we are not good or not "living according to his promises." But every time we are healed, it IS God's mercy acting in our lives. Mercy is free and cheerful whether it is your dang fault or not. WOW! Believing for beautiful things that God gives doesn't suck - even if people feel guilty that they can't appreciate the beauty of a flower, that doesn't make the flower ugly. it is not about ego; it is about... Ephesians 1:17 ...the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know... ...what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead... There is no face – born of ego – that can be maintained in the face of him who had his face torn beyond recognition so that we could go beyond our pretensions, and, finally, be healed. I think that is the Word, & if people believe it, they will be healed. It may take some thinking, but it is not overly intellectual in the least. Beloved, I wish above all things that... That from the ALMIGHTY, Peace, Tom

God doesn't decide to heal or not to heal. God gives the power to heal to people. God is not the variable in this question; people are. God's will is constant; he wishes more than anything else for people to be healed. Before Jesus' disciples were given the power to heal, Jesus told people to pray for the kingdom of God to come so that God's will may be done on earth as it is in heaven. The reason more people weren't being healed before that prayer was prayed is because the kingdom of God hadn't come - except, of course, in the person of Jesus Christ who was doing a lot of healing at the time. After Jesus gave the disciples the power to heal, he gave them directions on how to bring that power to bear. No more were they told to pray that the kingdom of God should come for now the disciples had the kingdom of God within. Now the will of God (to heal) could be done just as his will is done in heaven. They were to tell others that the kingdom of God was near to them (for it was in the disciples). The disciples were at peace with God and that was their message. They were to heal those who received the peace of their words. Those are the variables now. First, like the disciples, we have to believe that we, not God, have the power to heal because where we are, there is the kingdom of God for it is within us. Second, we need to tell people so - not that God can heal them, but that we can because the kingdom of God is within us. Third, people need to believe the word that we tell them about the presence of God within and the ability for people to heal - and believing, desire it enough to come & get it. In other words: 1. Freely we receive. 2. Freely we give. 3. Freely they receive. Those are the variables as far as I see it. Matthew 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men. Tom

No problem, J****. As a matter of fact it's good, part of the healing - thanks. Yeah, I do know, and I have to say that I still look at it that way - not in the way that it came to be perverted into one person being more or less of a person because of his/her believing, but still what happened to each of us at the time & afterwards...it's hard not to see what happened in a causal relationship to our believing mindsets. J** & I spoke afterwards about specifically what happened to us individually. No doubt.Speaking of J**, I sent her the two pages of this thread & got this back: And this: Thanks Lorna, I'll take the trooper part as a high compliment - I suppose if I took the screw up appellation upon myself, it's only fair I take the trooper one. I have somewhat of a problem with the idea of bringing to pass the power of God in my life though. It may be literally quite true, but I'm just talking here, right? Trying to communicate. To my mind, the idea that I bring to pass the power of God in my life carries a somewhat godlike quality with it. No, that doesn't communicate...I have no problem with the idea of owning up to godlike qualities, but it seems to carry with it a quality that should be reserved only to God. I absolutely believe that we do the healing and that we have the awesome privilege to do so. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are not the first agents involved, God is. Like Jesus did, we see the Father work and we work, and we can do nothing without him. Also, despite (or perhaps in clarification of) what I said about ministering and prayer above, I know that the gifts of healings that occurred rode on a great wave of the believing prayers of thousands. I have had the opportunity lately at work to minister healing to two people with Cancer with great relults. Cancer is bad enough, but one had it spread throughout his system. Many were praying for these two people, and they were trying many types of "alternative" (what a stupid term - perhaps natural would be better) healing modalities, but I knew how to simply walk with the Father and minister healing. In the most serious case, I was very cognizant of the believing prayers of people being involved spiritually in what I was doing and thankful for it. But I knew the difference. And you're right, it is an awesome privilege to be able to serve in this way. Other believers at work had said that I needed to open my mouth and declare these truths concerning the power that God has given to men - and so lately I am. I feel like I'm coming out of the closet or something like that. And I'm diggin it. Oh, while I'm at it... I was thinking "no" when I first read your question, but then I remembered a young woman in my fellowship that had a teacher in community college who was practiced in the occult arts. On day after fellowship, she asked me to minister to her, and as I started to, I immediately sensed a spirit in her back and knew her teacher had placed it there. I asked her if she had allowed her college teacher to practice his "healing" arts on her. She said that she had a headache in class and he massaged her and the headache went away. I told her he got rid of the headache by putting a spirit in her back.I don't know it that qualifies as "seeing" bogus miracles or not. Living & Learning, Tom

Jesus told people to pray that the kingdom of God would come, and that God's will would be done on earth as it is in heaven. But after he gave "power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases" to the disciples, he didn't tell them to pray that God's kingdom would come; he told them to tell people "the kingdom of God is come near unto you." And he didn't tell them to pray for the sick; he told them to heal. Freely you have received; freely give. I don't remember Jesus Christ ever praying for sick people. The told them the kingdom was at hand and healed them. I think if we preach the immediacy of the kingdom of God, and people believe that, they can get healed. Don't get me wrong, I believe we are supposed to pray for one another, and I have nothing but thanksgiving for all those who prayed for us, but I think that basically we are praying that God enlighten the eyes of people's understanding as to the immediacy of the kingdom. Then God's will for our healing will be done on earth as God's will is done in heaven. Tom

Hi J****, I'll have to forward this thread to J**. It seems like I do remember in some basic part of my being that you visited me. That basic part of my being thanks you :)--> I was sort of like a baby in those days, sort of rewiring the whole neural network from scratch in a lot of ways. I'm sure it meant a lot that you visited me. I remember J**'s doctor called me up once and said that J** didn't really believe that I was alive, and that she wouldn't make it unless she saw me, and he asked me to come to see her. I pleaded with my doctor, but he wouldn't let me get out of bed for anything. I asked my nurse what would happen if I tried to get out of bed, and she said I would fall down. When she left the room, I sat up in bed for a while, then put my feet on the floor. It took me a long time before I could stand up without holding onto the bed. If I picked my feet up, it hurt too much to put them back down on the floor, so I sort of shuffled over to the bathroom. That was a shocker. I had a face by that time and I could see again, but Frankenstein was definitly handsome by comparison. I looked at my self for about two hours trying to imagine some way my head could heal into something that looked halfway normal, but there was no way. After we got out, somebody had some pictures of me from the beginning. Do you remember who that was? Anyway, when I got out to the hallway, the nurse came by in a wheelchair & took me to see J**. It meant a lot to know each other was okay. Thanks again for visiting me. I remember when I started suspecting something about D***. I forced an answer out of JJ & H***, and I just started crying. I'm glad they told me some of the other circumstances involved. I wouldn't have handled it otherwise. I don't think I've quite "handled it" as it is. I just think of God and know he wants me to live. Sometimes I think of the apostle Paul. I know it is not the same, but I think of how he went on to live for God, but it is like I don't quite understand it emotionally. I don't know if I said this last time we were communicating or not, but... Words seem to be of insufficient value. I'm sorry, J****, that I screwed up that day. Love you, honey. Tom

There you go, Oak; well said. And I agree basically with everything you just posted.

Listen, if I had broadened this thread beyond its original intent by speaking about people (more than VPW) hearing God's voice speak to them [be quiet, please], you've certainly broadened the discussion [look, will you shut up; I'm trying to type something] way beyond that by talking about any voices [it's really hard to carry on two conversations at once...and you, too - three conversations I can't handle]. I have to go now. I'm sorry...it's these voices.

Surely you go on more than that. Have you brought nothing to the table?

Hmm, maybe I mistook him.

Oakspear, I see the one you responded to apparently decided to withdraw her post. Please go easy on her; apparently, she said she is still working things out from that time. It was horrendous. I'd like to thank her for speaking up and send her my love. Hi honey, I miss you. I was the driver of the car, Oak. There are details about what happened after the car wreck to which you are not privy, and I'm not going to go into them here. All I'm saying is you don't know what happened. It is easy to slam TWI for blaming it on people's believing, but that still leaves you not knowing what happened. I've been through this particular account of healing before on a thread about miracles - which might be more what we are asking about here rather than healing - or not. But anyway, I'm going to repost here what I did on that thread and then maybe add some things. There were many different healings involved in our recuperation. My wife was paralyzed. Her doctors had just finished testing her – you know, sticking needles into her to see if there was any reaction – when her mom & dad first arrived and came in to see her. Her mom went hysterical and said that was no way to live a life. I know that’s really a horrible thing to say, but you have to go easy on her mom – she was a real trip, Nazi concentration camp survivor. She got into a big fight with my folks when she said that we would both be better off dead. Anyway, my wife said right then that there was no way God was going to let her stay paralyzed her whole life and lifted up both her legs right there. Everybody started crying and the doctors tested her again right away – and she was fine. Coincidence? Happens? Sure it happens; it’s called healing. It’s all healing. I gather from the question at the start of this thread that we’re talking about God being in the healing. Well, I think God is in all healing, but I gather also that we’re talking more direct involvement than the body healing itself. She called it before it happened. What else can I say? The doctors told me that I could expect more healing as time went on, but that at about seven years that would be about it. Nine years later, I was at the Rock of Ages and met a friend from the 70s in the early NY ministry who always had a strong ministry in healing. She told me my face was looking good. I told her that I was glad she liked it because that was as good as it was going to get & told her about what the doctors had said about the seven years. She said okay if that’s what I wanted to limit God to. I laughed nervously knowing that she was right. The next morning I had a bad sore throat and happened to meet this woman on the pathway and asked her to minister to me. It was short and sweet – I don’t remember if she said anything about my throat, but she thanked God for the bones in my face moving further into proper alignment, and I clearly and loudly heard and felt the bones in my face move – some good loud snap crackle and pop action. She simply said, “There, now you have seven more years of healing,” and left. There were just many forms of healing involved in all this. I needed spiritual healing and got it. Also, at one point – I’ve shared this before in a lot more detail with a lot more passion, but it’s late – there were four people screwing screws into my head at the same time while I was wide awake screaming my heart out to heaven for help from the pain and feeling of helplessness and Jesus Christ appeared with the crown of thorns on and blood pouring down his face and told me that it was okay, that he had gone through everything of what I was going through and come out on the other side. I don’t know if the pain was still there, but the company was more impressive than the pain, and the despair, the loneliness, and the helplessness were replaced by thankfulness and peace. Healing or psychosis? For those who believe, God bless. For those who don’t, I don’t care to argue about it. For years I didn’t tell anyone, and for more years I told only a few. Maybe it was necessary for those years, but now I’ve been healed of that one too. Now I don’t’ care anymore; the Lord deserves the credit.

He said God communicates in the light of an individual's previous experience. Now that pertains to communication which is broader than speaking, but I would think that would pertain to speaking also, speaking being a form of communication. I realize that doesn't help much as far as specifically what God's voice sounds like, but maybe it shows that the question doesn't have a single, specific answer. God's voice might very well sound different to different people. "God's voice" would seem to be the good ole figure of speech condescensio, God being spirit and not having vocal chords. In other words, God communicates in whatever manner communicates best - to each individual in each circumstance. Tom

I think if we keep reading in Hebrews we see the joy that was set before him - the same joy that is set before us, life, the peaceable fruit of righteousness, the inheritance of our birthright, the true mount Sion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, an innumerable company of angels, the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Able, things which cannot be shaken, a kingdom which cannot be moved. Also when Jesus suffered outside the gate of the earthly city that he might go to the heavenly he did so with us in mind that he might sanctify us with his own blood. Therefore, let us also go outside the camp of the organizations of men which worship the golden calf to him, bearing his reproach; for, like him, we have no continuing city here, but seek one to come. By Him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. Fot the joy that is set before us. Tom