Tom

Are we having a debate? I thought we were just having fun - sort of like interactive looney tunes.

I'm sorry - I just showed up here & posted without reading all the posts. Has anyone actually fessed up to being willing to give Mike's ideas a shot? That doesn't require a long range firearm; perhaps they haven't been considering Mike's ideas for long. Tom

Hi everyone, It's been months since I've been here. The menu and the clientele seem to be about the same - I'm not sure if that is comforting or scary :)--> As I remember, shortly after the beginning of the interminable Mike threads, people were asking if anyone around agreed with Mike. Even back then there was someone around who agreed with him - of course, people then wondered if it was Mike posting under another persona. Maybe Mike doesn't completely agree with himself, but he is willing to give his ideas a fair chance. And maybe that other person is still around - or again, maybe it is Mike's alter ego. Or maybe the silent agreeing community is still silent. Nah, scratch all those maybies. Tom

I was never really sold on Tom Cruise. I liked him in Top Gun, but I thought he was too pretty to be taken seriously portraying a character with any depth. I changed my mind watching The Last Samarai. I have a lot more respect for his acting ability now. BTW, my Karate instructor teaches Kendo, the the Japanese martial art of fencing, and he is crazy about the movie. He thinks it is the most accurate martial arts movie ever done. I have the DVD, and I think the movie is great. It comes with a second DVD that has a description of what is accurate about the movie - and some of what is not. The techniques are superb - the master Kendo teacher in the movie really is a teacher and a champion. It even has a description of the accuracy of the movie historically that was produced by and aired on the history channel.

What do I feel deep inside about what? Oh, high everybody. Pass me a beer someone?

BTW, I purchased my dvdxcopy on ebay, & I just checked. Apparently, they are still selling them there. Tom

Andy, I downloaded dvdshrink a couple of days ago. The tech where I work says that he thinks it is easier to use than dvdxcopy, works more smoothly, gives you more options, & produces a better product than dvdxcopy. I haven't tried it yet. Tom

Thanks ExC & Krys, a lot - 2 lots worth. Hey, I'm on the East Coast. Well, down in South Florida East Coast. Tom

If you want to find out how to get over "Doctor" nausea, just write "The Teacher," Box 328, New Knoxville, Ohio, 45871.

When I first got involved in TWI, my lifestyle was rather extremely sinful - I have to admit. I couldn't figure our whether the wonderful sounding promises that my fellowship coordinator put in front of me were true or not, so I put myself in his hands; I decided that I would do whatever he told me to do for a month and, at the end of the month, if he was telling me the truth, I would be his faithful friend for life, but if he was lying to me, I would kill him because no one should be able to say the kinds of things, demanding the kind of loyalty of your total being that he was, be lying to you, and live. Admittedly, that was extreme, but I had never made that kind of decision about the life of another person before. That should show you a little of what I feel about the extremity of Wierwille's sin. And my fellowship coordinator never even raped me or anyone that I loved. You guys who are acting like Wierwille's treachery was just a sin like anybody else's amaze me. Even Wierwille said that the higher you go spiritually, the more accountable you are to God. If he were here, his words would post against himself.

Were everybody's sins acknowledged publickly, most people's would not be considered criminal to the extreme extent that their names and addresses would be published to warn the rest of humankind about their presence in the area. That ought to say something about the extreme nature of Wierwille's sin.

2027, "Now I ready to tell others about either one but I will kept it one on one if possible...I guess that all I can say about that." I don't think that is all that you can say about that other than one on one if possible. Martindale, one of the ones in question, taught that sins against the church would be best handled privately, but that there were some circumstances that demanded that they be handled publickly. One of the things that required public address was if the offense was so wide spread that it affected a large enough percentage of the body of the Way household that it needed to be addressed publickly so that the believers hurt could know how they got hurt and be healed. No one's sins have affected the people of the ministry as widely as Martindale'sand Wierwille's. Because of the public awareness and consequences of his offenses, they need to be addressed publickly. Tom

Simon, The considerations that you've brought up here are extremely hard to articulate - for me also. Usually, my feeling about miracles is pretty simple - similar to Socks. You just expect that God can take care of things. There is nothing to articulate. Of course that doesn't help anyone else. I believe you were correct that Corps who died that you were talking about was in the year 74/75. I was living at HQ that year. I remember that year - before that happened - a good friend of mine had put some things together in his thinking about God supplying all our need, yet bad things happening to believers. He sort of cornered Wierwille on the ramifications of that and asked him point blank if that means that God will warn us before something bad happens all the time - that being a need & God supplying needs. Wierwille didn't want to answer him at first, but finally he answered him and said yes, that God would always warn you. At first I wasn't sure why Wierwille would hesitate to answer that question, but later I figured that he saw the potential for condemnation that knowledge could bring to believers who did have bad things happen to them - you know, if the believer listened, great; if he/she didn't listen, why rub it in? Who knows? I remember wrestling with some of the questions posited. Was God big enough to take care of us? If not, then our "courage" depended on us, on our own strength of will to walk or for God knowing that we were going to get our a$$e$ kicked in the process - that didn't seem to glorify God any, but us. If God could take care of us, well then we still had to believe as much and walk out on it, but our courage to do so depended upon God's ability to take care of us if we did. I was willing to go that way - hell yeah, to the max. Bring it on. I think Jesus was confronted with something that touches on this when he heard that Lazarus was sick and said to his disciples, "Let us go into Judaea again." His disciples said, "Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?" Read, "We are going to get our a$$e$ kicked." Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world." I'm aware of the diservice it seems to do to extwi to remind some of them of this because of the way TWI twisted this attitude inside out, but I think it does a diservice to God and those seeking the power that energizes miracles to hide the truth that God cares for you when you walk like he will protect you - he backs you up. It wasn't long after VP's explanation of this principle that the Way Corps boy died. TWI intimately tied this result to a generally applicable, causal relationship with your faithfulness to your committment to the household. TWI twisted this principle from confidence in God's sufficiency to provide to a miserable comforter type attack that asks when was it ever heard that God forsook the righteous? What is your secret sin that you have committed that this misfortune has occurred in your life? One approach is motivated by love & glorifies God's grace while the other is motivated by guilt and glorifies man's ability to be faithful. Proverbs 26:9 As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouth of fools. The lesson contains truth either way it is told (therein lies its strength), but in the mouth of fools its power is effective to stop the godly work of the hands of the believer. But we believed it because we were conditioned to respect the truth. I remember being amazed that it seemed to me that all I had to do was be out of fellowship for a brief period and something disasterous was bound to happen. What was the deal? There was something wrong, extremely wrong about it. I believe now that it was similar to the fear that Dot was talking about. Not only that but I feel that it was the action of the spirits of fear, bondage, and deceipt that LOY - and; therefore, everybody else - was continually yelling about. As he cursed the people of the ministry and we believed him, I think it was the action of the spirits at work in him that energized a lot of that uncanny action of the adversary in our lives. The adversary was not particularly kicking or a$$e$ because that is the way of life for people who walk godly who make mistakes. It is not the usual way of life for unbelievers, believers, or anybody other than people who are cursed because of their involvement with leadership who are infested and doing the will of those spirits. It was a set-up, and we walked right into it. Leadership - who were always blaming us underlings for all the problems - had sold out. We were the unhappy recipients of the spiritual influence they allowed into the ministry. We labor not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual wickedness in high places (in the upper echelons of the hierarchy of the ministry was how George Jess, the very first coordinator of the Way Corps, explained it to me. "That's where the fight is right now, & the ministry is up for grabs right now," is how he explained to me in 1973). We lost. When I finally got ousted from the ministry, I started to learn that God would love me whatever I did wrong. I have to admit that I pushed it to the limits just to be assured that there was no limit to God's love. I needed to do that to walk (God was still supposed to be a God that supplied needs - all needs); I wouldn't want to walk with a God who would do any less. We can be pretty unskillful, but basically believe that God will take care of us - and he will. Then it is not our skill at believing that is the big deal. We can be very skillful at the how of the spiritual walk, but screw up and get hurt. It is not our skill that determines the results - niether is it our mistakes. $hit happens because of a lot of reasons. Your failure to listen to God may be only a small part of the reason and very insignificantly causal - other wise known as the small stuff. It is my experience that those who let $hit affect them the least experience success the most. They don't take it personally; they're just learning how to walk. I think fear of embarrassment stops people from walking on the water more than any other factor. Addendum to the miracle I wrote about: About 10 years after the accident, I met a woman at the Rock whom I had led into an understanding of the working of revelation and power because she just kept walking into amazing situations demanding gifts of healing and pulled them off remarkably with very little training. She told me that I looked like I had healed a lot, but that there was a lot of healing that could still occur. I told her that it had been 10 years since the accident, and the doctors had told me that after seven years, I would be as healed as I was going to get. Her response was well if that's as far as you allow your believing to think that God can take you... Having taught her about the relationship between believing in God's power and healing, I sort of chuckled with embarrassment, said good night, and left. The next morning, I woke up with a severe sore throat. As I walked out onto the grounds of the Rock, there whe was, walking toward me. Knowing her simple believing where healing was concerned, I asked her to minister to me. She said okay, laid her hands on my head and thanked God that the bones in my head woud move more into a position of naturally designed alignment. I FELT and heard - you know with that hearing that happens inside your skull and not through your eardrums - the bones of my skull move. I'm sorry, but I don't remember if she said anything at all about my sore throat. She looked at me and smiled and said, "There, now you have another seven years of natural healing." Jesus taught that if you walk in the light, you will not stumble, yet the Word teaches that the righteous will fall seven times and rise up again. Hey, we all fall down. The most successful people in walking in miraculous power that I know, know not only that we can absolutely rely upon God to teach us whatever we need in the spiritual walk and protect us from evil as we walk, but also that they'll fall. The most successful people get ....ed when they fall, but other than that, they don't really spend a lot of time trying to figure it out - they just learn what they can & keep on walking. If I were Jesus, I could probably explain what I'm trying to say here a lot better, but on this earth, Jesus is still in the making, and I hope that will help some. I'm not going to edit this post, so grant me space please. Tom [This message was edited by Thomas Heller on December 28, 2003 at 23:04.]

Dang, Wordwolf, that was good! I'd go to a party with you, all get high, drive to MacDonald's, have everyone in the car scream out their orders in the drive through lane, and then when we get to the window, let you collate the whole order into how many burgers, fries, shakes of what flavors, etc. are included in the order. The only thing I'm afraid of is that I'll be driving and relaying the order as you say it, and then after you finish with the order, you'll say, "And tell her it is 'to go,' and I'll say it before I realize I'm already at the take out window. That HAVING BEEN SAID, I'd like to say that when this gets to the Doctrinal forum, people realize that things posted in the Doctrinal forum are no more to be lectures than things posted anywhere else in the cafe. DOCTRINES, posted in the DOCTRINAL forum, as all DOCTRINES are supposed to be, are supposed to be as much ideas posted for DISCUSSION, and not LECTURE, as any other thread posted in the cafe. PLEASE don't relegate the doctrinal forum to the ranks of the pharisaical. There have been some real discussion oriented threads there of late.

Galen, Fine example of you not listening or deliberately twisting words, "You are right that I have not argued against Mike's writings much." Vickles never said anything about you arguing against Mike's words, but about you not responding. Heck, you even quoted him in your post, "Galen, . . . I have noticed through mike's threads that you did not respond..." As usual, and like Mike, you disregard what others say.

Galen,"Okay, and your point being?" Mike's a Pharisee. "I don?t care..." Exactly.

Editors are good. I wasn't making fun; I was being sincerely appreciative. Tom

Galen? Is the the new Galen, "Everytime that someone posts from their personal experiences in TWI, I learn and perhaps there is something that everyone can learn from?" I don't know how many times you have flatly refused to believe the testimony of so many about their experiences because you werent' there. Oh, perhaps that was all in the categary you see fit to call "the gossiping and tattling that so many seemed to enjoy wihtin TWI," thereby insultingly dismissing the experiences of so many. But here comes Mike with his pharisaical doctrine and attitude, and this you put in the category of "everytime that someone posts from their personal experiences in TWI." that you learn from. That's quite a stretch, Galen - in both directions. There is no doubt that people gang up on individuals sometimes here because it is our nature, but Mike is not one of those times. The reasons people object to Mike's postings have probably been as least as clearly pointed out as any topic ever discussed in the cafe, maybe more. The only reason anyone would not see that is their disregard for what others are saying which is something that you and Mike share, another pharisaical characteristic, as is your like idolization for all things Wierwillian. One of the finer things about the essentially democratic nature of a public forum is that things like the above abuses get identified and, if this were truly a democratic politic, weeded out. One of the qualities of "leaders" of men in a democratic society is that they listen to the words of their children, nieces, nephews, the women in the society, and all other "lesser" segments of society - thereby making them all equal. And if they don't listen, in a democratic society they would, and ought to be, ousted from their position and disqualified from any future leadership. This is not a truly democratic forum; it is essentially not a political entity. It is Paw's cafe, where Paw, in gracious manner, allows the field of play to extend far beyond that of a true democracy. This allows Mike to play out is pretended leadership. And this alone. Ha, this is a fallacious joke, no? Go back to TWI, give them more money, allow them to con you some more - this will put more validity into your perspective. Well, maybe I'm being too harsh here. Many feel like they experienced good in TWI - that's fine. But your point of view is NOT valid because you've experienced something. The victim in an intrigue experiences something, but he/she is the one most in the dark about what is going on. The point of view of the perpetrators of the crime is more valid. And it was WIERWILLE who said that it is not true because you experience it. This question of validity was, as a matter of fact, discussed in detail on Mike's threads - but apparently you weren't listening - so here we go again? And I should welcome this? Def59, I must say that Roy has been using spell check on all his posts recently. That is a fare step in the write direction. And I applaud him for it and find his posts much more readable - thanks, Roy. The spell checking that would catch mistakes like confusing "fare" and "fair" would be to have open beside the computer the usually short section in many English books entitled something like Commonly Confused Words. Tom [This message was edited by Thomas Heller on December 26, 2003 at 12:28.]

Feedback: Mike, I think that an important subject for you to revisit that came up this past year in your posts is your unwillingness to address, to the satisfaction of the majority of your readers, the feeling among the majority of your readers that you present yourself as extraordinarily special (an extremely unChristian posture), that you expect everyone to admit to your extraordinary speciality, that your presentations maximally minimize anyone else's understanding of anything that you present, that you've assumed, in godlike manner, that you know that, not only has no one else turned over the stones that you have, but that we have to admit to such personal ignorance in the face of your godlike knowledge and presence, acquiesce to the demand that you say they have on our lives, that we all participate in their investigation, and would not prefer that the rain didn't fall in San Diego so that you could continue to engage in the honest employment of your time. Thanks for asking. And since you are inviting us to suggest topics for discussion, may I suggest that you discuss with your customers the fact that when it rains on dirty windows, they look REALLY dirty, but when it rains on clean windows, they still look clean, and that; therefore, it would behoove them to allow you to continue cleaning their windows during the rainy season.

ex, I was posting while you were posting. I didn't mean it to sound like you need healing, sweetheart. We all need healing in a lot of ways all the time. Tom

I can tell you and SimonZ that I was definitely wondering how I got into such a position to need such healing. God, who gives to all men liberally, and doesn't reproach was instant to start to answer my questions that very morning when the heads of the Marketing Dept. came in, but that's another story. However it was part of the healing - and still is. As far as the deal with God is going, my best doesn't seem to amount to much, but allowing God to heal my life daily proves profitable in all areas of living. Wherever God is, healing is going on. Allow God to heal you. Tom

I'm sorry for repeating this to those who have heard it before. The year was 1976. I was in The Way Marketing Dept. I was in a car wreck. Later, after I was on outpatient care, I asked my doctor what damage I had. He showed me a book with all the possible head fractures, and told me I had all of them, that a patient from a motorcycle accident had just been admitted with 2/3 of the damage that I'd had, and they didn't expect him to make it. I was alive - a miracle? No, although I think there were miracles involved in the process. I don't remember this, but I was told later that I "died" many times in the first days while totally on life support, but they brought me back (I think the number is seven times, but I'm not sure if I'm confusing that with Howard Allen's healing - anybody?). Miracles? I don't know, but I was unconscious, so I'm not an eyewitness even though it happened to me. I don't care very much whether they were official miracles or not - go figure. One of the first things I remember after that initial time was people (doctors, parents) hounding me to give them permission to operate. They said that my life depended on it, that they had been waiting for three days for the internal bleeding to stop before they operated, decided that they had to operate anyway even though the bleeding hadn't stopped and I would probably die during the operation because I would die if they didn?t operate, but now the bleeding HAD stopped, and they needed to operate immediately if I had any reasonable chance to live. A miracle? Wait, I'm not done. I was a stupid Wayfer; I refused to give them permission, said I wouldn't let anyone operate on me except Dr. Wiengardner. My mother - get this, my MOTHER, I don't think I would have let anyone else in this far to my heart at the moment - asked me if there was any way I would give permission for someone to operate on me other than Dr. Wiengardner. I said - loyal Wayfer that I was - that the only way I would do that is if Dr. Wierwille said that I should, and I gave them the HQ phone number that I knew by heart. Quickly, my mom came back with a message from Dr. Wierwille that said that Dr. Wiengardner didn't perform the type of operation that I needed, that I was in the care of the most qualified doctors in the entire world to perform the surgery that I needed (which I found out later was the truth as they sent in specialists from Duke University), and that I should think of the grace of God holding me up more firmly than the bed I was lying on, let them operate, and soon I would awake from the operation - awake, get it? Alive! So I gave permission and awoke alive - a miracle? Dang, this is getting hard - I had a 1-3 % chance of making it, and if I did survive the operation, I was supposed to be a vegetable. You decide if I?m what the doctors referred to as a vegetable. A miracle? Ask a vegetable. Okay, so we're looking for miracles. Believers ministry?wide were praying 24/7. Locally, there was a young woman - we were all so young ? who hadn?t had the class yet, but had been led into tongues, who showed up at the prayer site. She asked the person she was relieving how this thing worked and what was she supposed to do. He told her to speak in tongues and get a picture of myself (and my then wife who was also in the wreck) in mind, and to picture us as whole. And if anything other than wholeness entered her mind to know that God was showing her something and to ask him to heal it. Okay, okay, the miracle. This young woman stayed there all night, and at one point, she saw my head falling apart, realized I was dying, and asked God to put me back together and save my life, and saw my head come back together. Meanwhile, I had taken, my percodans and another shot of morphine before supposedly sleeping, but when I realized that I wasn?t going to sleep, I decided that it would be better to speak in tongues and talk to God all night than just lie there in pain. God and I had an honest talk. I knew that my life was hanging in the balance. I didn?t know how everything got all messed up, and I didn?t want to survive just to have something like this happen again. I also didn?t think I had any chance of being anywhere near normal physically or mentally if I did survive, and I didn?t want to live out my days as a freak. But neither did I want to deny the power of God as my last conscious act on this earth only to then look Jesus in the face and be ashamed that my last act was to deny God?s power. Sooo, I told God that if he would make me whole physically and mentally and teach me how things had gotten so screwed up and how to keep that from happening again, that I would g back and give it my best shot to walk with him again. That?s the deal we made. Meanwhile, the heads of the marketing dept. showed at the prayer site where the young woman was still praying for us and told her they were going to the hospital to see me. She told them what she had seen, told them not to worry because God had saved my life and told them the words I would say to them when they saw me. When these two walked into the room, I told them what she said I was going to ? something about God?s love. The second in command said that it was the most profound truth he had ever heard me say. Then people were around me explaining that they had to operate right away, the bleeding had stopped? Years later, I found this woman at the Rock to find out if things happened that night as I remembered them and remembered being told that they had. Our stories matched perfectly. She said that after that night, she had never doubted that perfect prayer was the power of God being released. She remembered telling the two heads of the department what I would tell them, but neither of us remembered specifically what it was. I think that meets the criteria for a miracle. JT said that it had to be undeniable or have no other possible explanation. That doesn?t exist. There is ALWAYS some other possible explanation. And your mind ALWAYS can come up with it. But after a while, when you see enough, or like this woman, it is impressive enough, you just stop doubting it. Why didn?t God just heal me totally, immediately? I don?t know ? different reasons. How come when Jesus ministered to the blind man, he saw men as trees and wasn?t totally healed the first time? I remember the limb coordinator coming to visit. I told God I wanted him to just walk in and heal me. When he walked in , he told that he knew I wanted him to just heal me, but that wasn?t the way it was going to happen. He said that every different kind of healing would be involved in my total healing, and that afterward I would be able to minister healing to others in all these ways. Tom

Okay, George. Now, at last I finally know what turns you on. The proof is in the pudding. No need for proof or validation of belief here. You don't like the pudding, use prophylactics. No, seriously; I started studying Karate a few months ago. My instructor - sensei - has roots and philosophy going back to China. Okinawa, actually, but it all came from China originally. He said that TLS was the best martial arts movie ever made, both historically and (martial) artistically. Very accurate. There really was a white guy who... I haven't seen it yet, but I'm really looking forward to it. Tom

GJ,"Does anyone remember this? VPW added a word (isn't that a technique used by the serpent?) to make verse 2 " It was supposed to be that the word "to be" doesn't exist in - Hebrew, I think. So, the word "was" should have been translated "became" which does exist in the Hebrew. There is some reasoning behind the word being "became," but I forget it. It was supposed to be the absence of light that made the whole thing without form and void. I can't even imagine what all this stuff would be like without light. Without form and void is the supposed answer whatever that is. Tom

"got," past tense. Maybe it was all rumor to you, but it is a stretch to believe that it was all rumor to everyone, not knowing all that everyone knew.