Tom

Hebrews 12:2 says that Jesus endured the cross for the joy that was set before him, despising the shame. I think he was thinking of the joy that was set before him. I'm reminded of the movie of the Passion where his mother comes to him and he says something like, "Look mom; I'm making everything new!" In this context we are told to consider him as the author and finisher of our faith lest we become wearied and faint in our minds. I think we are to think as he thought of the joy that was set before him.

:)-->, wise choice, cm. Love does make everything cohere.

I understand what you're saying, CM - really I do, personally. However, since you've taken it into your hands to put these things out in public, it might hold you in good stead to consider that not only are Vince and company not our Lords, but as you say you've been told, in similar fashion, you should not let things that eat at you govern either. I don't know it that helps you let it go, but, at least, realize that the Lord Jesus who said that his burden is light also said in Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Perhaps it wasn't said in what we would consider a loving fashion to one for whom he gave his life, but it came; nevertheless, out from the heart of one firmly entrenched in the heart of God's love in the midst of temptation in the wilderness. Consider the nature of the temptation: Luke 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. Is that not a very similar temptation to the one you indicate has been presented to us by TWI? If you're a son of God, ________. You fill in the blank - what judment is TWI beating us over the head with today? If you're a son of God, why are you sick? Why don't you have this need met or that? Why, if you're a faithful follower of the Way, aren't you prospering? Why don't you believe God to put more bread on your table? Pretty mush the same temptation that Jesus took out with "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." No? Consider another group of people, also in the wilderness, to whom God delivered the same word - the children of Israel. God supplied them with bread so that they would learn that man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word of God. And he patiently did so for 40 years, so that they could learn the lesson. Is that not love? If the children of Israel gathered more than they needed for the day, the manna stank and had worms in it. If they shared it with each other, everyone had their needs met. And they had their need met in every way. God didn't do that for the children of Israel BACAUSE they lived by every word that came out of the mouth of God; they didn't live that way. He did that for them so that they would learn that't the way man lives - from the words of the mouth of a God who loves them and feeds them even when they are too stupid and selfish to handle the blessings properly in love and screw it up. Wouldn't you say those who disregarded the words that proceeded from the mouth of God were slapping the hand that fed them? Now consider one more group of people, many of whom, in a manner similar to Jesus and the children of Israel, are in a wilderness of sorts - the many ExTWI. Sure, many of us have learned that God is loving - not the God presented to many by TWI - or to Jesus by the Devil. We've learned that God will love us and care for us in spite of our screw ups. I, for one, have srewed up royally, on purpose, since I left TWI, just because I needed to know that our God was that loving. And he has never failed me. THAT is my loving God and yours, CM. And I'm very glad of it. And you're exactly right - all we need to do is walk in love. I just want to say that to walk in love doesn't preclude putting life together. Indeed, walking in love means putting life together in a loving manner with respect to those around us - sharing of the blessing and not being selfish with it. Every word of God shows us how to live that way - despite the bad rap & spin that has been put on the Word by the Devil in the wilderness or the selfishness of any of the other two groups that met with the same temptation in the wilderness of their lives. I don't want to do dishonor to the God who loves me and provides for me even when I'm a jerk by saying that his words proceed out of his mouth for any other purpose than to show me how not to be a jerk any more; but instead, how to live. It's really the only way I know how to deal with the temptation that comes to me from those who would judge me with "The Word." Tom

Internet Pizza Server Ordering Area Please select the toppings you would like to chow down on...don't hold back! We need your money! A piping hot pizza will be delivered to your terminal before you can count to 300 billion! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Select the size pizza you would like: SmallMediumLargeFamily What would you like on your pizza? Meats! Bacon Bits Beef Beetles Canadian Bacon Eyeballs Goblins Kittens Pepperoni Pork Salami Sausage Fingers Curly Veggies! Garlick Green Olives Green Pepper Mushrooms Olives Onions Pineapple Red Pepper Breakfast! Bacon Eggs Toast Sporting Goods! Baseballs Basketballs Footballs Golfballs Tennisballs Junk Food! Quik Altoids Pizzas Poptarts Hardware! Bolts Hammers Nails Nuts Aphrodisiacs! Green M&Ms Misc! Disks Legos Roadsigns Sinks Smiles 8 Balls Firecrackers Candles Click or to clear your order and start over. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Raf goes to China as an investigative reporter to see if there is real pizza in China, so he asks the concierge at his hotel if there's any place around where he can get truly authentic pizza. The concierge tells him he's in luck, there's a pizza place that just opened, and they deliver. He gets the phone number and goes back to his room and orders a pepperoni pizza. Thirty minutes later, the delivery guy shows up to the door with the pizza. Raf takes the pizza and starts sneezing uncontrollably. He asks the delivery man, "What did you put on this pizza?" The pizza delivery man all confused says, "Pizza have what you order.....pepper only."

Here's one for you, Raf. Hawaiian pizzas are a North American invention, usually consisting of a cheese and tomato base with ham (sometimes Canadian bacon) and pineapple toppings. Hawaiian pizza is mocked by some as a variation which has strayed too far from its Italian roots, and loathed by others for the effect the addition of sweet fruit has on the overall flavor.

Pizza has become an international food since the toppings can be extensively varied to meet local variations in taste. These pizzas consist of the same basic design but include an exceptionally diverse choice of ingredients, such as anchovies, egg, pineapple, eggplant, lamb, couscous, chicken, fish and shellfish, meats done in ethnic styles such as Moroccan lamb, kebab or even chicken tikka masala, and non-traditional spices such as curry and Thai sweet chili. A "white pizza" (pizza bianca) uses no tomato sauce, often substituting pesto or dairy products such as sour cream. Pizzas with "non-traditional ingredients" are known in the United States as "gourmet pizza" or California-style. It is also simple to make pizzas without meat for vegetarians.

In its basic form, a pizza (occasionally, pizza pie) is an oven-baked, flat, usually circular bread covered with tomato sauce and cheese with optional garnishes. The cheese is usually mozzarella or "pizza cheese". Various other foodstuffs can be added to this design as garnishes, most typically ground meats and sausages, such as salami and pepperoni, ham, bacon, fruits such as pineapple and olives, vegetable-like fruits such as chili peppers and sweet bell peppers, and vegetables such as onions and mushrooms. The crust is traditionally plain but can be flavoured with butter, garlic, herbs, or sesame. Because of the variety of ingredients typically used, pizza has been praised by nutritionists as an excellent fast food. Pizza is normally eaten hot (typically at lunch or dinner), but leftovers are often eaten cold, typically at breakfast or on a picnic.

Raf will kiss you if its sausage or pepperoni.

Wow, please tell me, Raf - you're not really going to put forth the proposition that it's not okay to kiss someone after eating pinapple, but it's fine to do so after eating sausage & pepperoni. Are you? Talk about so sad, so bad!

There's got to be some kind of logical fallacy in operation here by Raf. Picking a couple of items so far out of line that everyone will admit that their inclusion could not possibly qualify the result as pizza does not negate the item in question that IS simply open to question by virtue of the fact that many consider it pizza. As a matter of fact, there are purists to whom the addition of even sausage and pepperoni were considered anathema to the garden of pizza. Just when did the Devil get into Eden, and what was his disguise? Did the Devil say, "Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Hmmm, where is a good cigar when it is needed? Huh?

Def59, "Live in the freedom/liberty that Christ has given you. Enjoy the release from the burden of sin." This statement and its context in the rest of your post presents an extremely beautiful truth. If so much of the sickness that we see around us and in us is due to stress, then an acceptance of what you shared has got to effectually produce the most healing of all. Even if it wasn't about the cross - where, of course, Jesus took all our sin and sickness upon himself. Which, of course, he did. And that's why it works that way. But thank you for your fresh perspective born of your own intimate knowing. Ain't it cool!

I just did a little study on all the verses in King James that include both the word "judgment" & the "mercy." I think when people are talking about love, they are refering to the quality of mercy. I just want to point out that mercy & judgment are not at odds; they are in harmonious relationship. These are all the verses: Psalms 89:14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. Psalms 101:1 ¶<<A Psalm of David.>> I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O LORD, will I sing. Isaiah 16:5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness. Isaiah 30:18 ¶And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him [the reason God has mercy is BECAUSE he is a God of judgment]. Hosea 12:6 Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually. Zechariah 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy [showing mercy & compassion is true judgment]and compassions every man to his brother: Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 1 Corinthians 7:25 ¶Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. Many of those same verses can be used to show either that salvation is permanent or that it is not. I think that one of the misconceptions that reconciles many of the apparent contradictions is the business about the unrighteous not inheriting the kingdom of God. We equate inheriting the kingdom of God with salvation. I think that is unwarranted. Our eternal life starts - from our perpsective - when we are saved. Like the children of Israel, we each have a piece of the promised land already given to us. But also like the children of Israel - Joshua 1:3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses - we have to walk to appropriate the inheritance. Walk, not according to our own works to be saved, but according to works that God prepared for those who have the spirit to walk in to appropriate for themselves their inheritance within the body of Christ. Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. BTW, JB, your statement that God had all those people in the book of Job killed just to prove a point about Job is without biblical foundation. The Word doesn't say so; neither should you. Romans says we are saved by or to hope. There is something essentially salvation-like about the hope of the resurrections and the gathering together. Even when Jesus Christ gets raised, God says "This day have I begotten thee," right? Yes, here it is, Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Sure rings of being born again to me. But that is not to discount being born again in this life. 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Romans that says that we are saved to hope, also says Romans 8:26 ¶Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities... "Likewise" like what? Like the hope - check this out - the whole walk in the spirit described in Romans 8 is like the hope - NOW. If we know we are save by or to hope, we don't fret - we have patience because it is a certainty, not a maybe thing. Likewise, the spirit brings to bear in this life the reality of the glorified Christ sitting at the right hand of God as we are changed to be like him - now, all things working for good as we love him. BTW, speaking of love: Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Commend means to favorably introduce. What was favorable about God's introduction to us of his love? That even though we were sinners, Christ died for us. Now I ask you - would God introduce his love for us as such that Christ died for us when we were sinners - and then say that now his love has changed - his introduction of what his love was no longer applies - now you better watch out that you don't get cut off because something can separate you from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord? God forbid. Tom

I wonder about the relationship between the Way East & West & HQ. It was definitely before the way was incorporated. In those days - in my mind, at least - VP wasn't the big dog back then. Jesus was. I remember the Way Corps light bearers came to NY (in '72 or '73?) to "set us straight" because we werent following the way tree properly. One of them went witnessing with my fellowship & took me aside & asked me if I was loyal to Dr. W. That question had no place in my mind. I told him that God had placed me in a position to feed all these people that were showing up for fellowship & that I was like an animal that eats light & feeds light to these people & that was all I cared about. If VP gave me light to feed them - fine; if Heefner gave me light to feed them - fine. It was the light that mattered. I told him that I hadn't confessed VP as Lord, but Jesus. Personally, I believe Jesus had set up what I refered to as bands of ministering - the joints and bands refered to in Ephesians by which the whole body has nourishment ministered to it from the head, Jesus. It was an organic thing - a beauty to behold. I quickly had over 30 people in my fellowship & it was like I always knew where everyone was & how they were doing. I also knew whom I should go to for what - depending on my need. THe Way Corps light bearers came in & just chopped all that up - replaced it with the lines of authority of the way tree. That was in Long Island after Heefner left in Rye & Perez left in Long Island. My understanding was that God told Heefner that if he went to NY to move the Word, there would be a great following of the Lord Jesus Christ that would rise up there. Perez came to NY - Long Island - from California - for the same reason - God told him to go to NY & that the Word would move there if he did. All that very effective God telling people to go places to move the Word was, of course, replaced by the WOW program. As I remember it, VP said that he instituted the WOW program because people weren't rising up to go where God was telling them to go. It was to help them get over their fear, & it was just supposed to be for 2 or 3 years until people matured in their believing to follow God's lead on their own. How the fambobula are people supposed to rise up to follow God's direct direction when VP just instituted that all such guidance was to flow down from HQ? Duh!! Obviously THAT never happened. My memory of the centralization of the ABS is similar. VP complained that immature believers were abusing the ABS - & poor little VP had no way of knowing where the ABS was going. That summer, Perez & his assistant, Eddie Goebel, a couple of sharp fellas, put together a system whereby VP could track the ABS. At summer school - I guess in '73 - they presented the plan to VP. I remember them coming back after meeting with VP - they were bummed. VP had made up his mind that all the money was going to go directly to HQ. I don't know about him saying that it was OTHERS who moved him to do that against his wishes - I find THAT very hard to believe. He might have said that, but phffft - in those days VP was all about becoming the top dog. That was the direct effect of the WOW program, the "takeover" in Kansas, California, & NY, the centralization of the ABS, the incorporation of the way, the insitition of the way tree. All those moves replaced Jesus with VP, & changed the character of the Way West & East into something that looked similar, but was, in nature and character, very different. I do remember Perez & Goebel said that VP had said that the centralization of the ABS was only going to be for a brief period until people rose up to be maturely responsible enough to hadn't the money themselves. Again, like the WOW program, THAT never happened. How the heck were all these people doing such a great job with the souls of people when they couldn't handle the unrighteous mammon? Isn't that supposed to be impossible according to the bible? VP left them in charge of souls, but took the money. Just not right, biblically! Again, I wonder about the legal relationship of the Ways East & West to HQ. It seemed to me that Doop, Heefner, & Perez just sort of handed the thing over to VP when we all should have told him just to kiss off, but maybe there was something other than VP being THE MAN working, something legal. Still, wouldn't it have been royal if everyone said, "Fine, VP, you keep it," and all left & kept doing what we were doing anyway? Why didn't we? BTW, I wish I knew who all you 5th Corps people were. I was in that 1st year in the 1st Special Corps. Tom

How about "Jesus, the Morning After?" Hey, true story I read in umm, I think Reader's Digest. This brave old soul with a sense of humor, upon hearing that he had Altzeimer's, told his family to look on the bright side of it - now he could hide his own Easter eggs.

Once upon a time, there was the NY pizza. And it was good. There was the Manhattan pizza that was so thin one couldn't hold the whole slice in a "V" because the tip would fall, and liquid (which there is a lot of on a Manhattan pizza) would just drain off the tip, so one had to fold the tip over. But it was sooo good. And there was the Bronz pizza, which, to me, is so much like the original pizza in the Garden of Eden, that it defies description. It is not LIKE anything; every other pizza is more or less LIKE it. I suppose one more worthy may desribe it, but I can't. However, although it is beyond desription, it can't be mistaken. Once I walked past a pizza joint in Las Vegas and followed the fragrance inside the door to immediately announce to everyone behind the counter what they already knew - that they were from the Bronx. Unmistakable! Then there is the Brooklyn pizza. 1/2 way between the Manhattan & the Bronx slice. Absolutely satisfies. The original Long Island pizza slices - 'Litalianos from the city did something amazing to them. Originally sold only through holes in the wall by the slice, umm,let me see if I can put this into words. It was very much like the Bronx slice or the Brooklyn, but heftier. And it had a tasty addition of the Manhattan - the juicy thing, but it didn't detract from the heftiness, & it wasn't overdone. The Lords of Pizza had achieved something remarkable, something that could only best be described as close to very good sex. Then someone added one or two ingredients - usually, but not always, sausage or pepperoni. It was questionable at first if this was genuine pizza, but it was then accepted without question. Soon, briefly questioned, and likewise accepted, came the supreme pizza and the Sicilian (which some will argue was originally in the Garden - but then the whole discussion devolves upon a black (according to Neapolitan (white Italians))white thing - that I'm not going to touch any more than I have. Apologies to Staten Island and other places with ligitimate claims to genuine pizza origins, I move on to the true evil - TWI. Having moved me to North Carolina, they put me in a position where, at last, Pizza Hut Pizza started to taste something like real pizza, started to taste good like it had something of real pizza in it. To my credit, I retained enough integrity to attribute that to my final complete adulterization of the authentic under the hand of oppressive TWI influences. Be that as it may, I spare you the details of further degradation and fast forward to my re-entry into society from the depths of the TWI beast. All the glories of the God of TWI & prosperity & my years of abundant sharing over & and above 15% notwithstanding, I'm now working in, of all places, a pizza joint - delivering pizzas - in South Florida. Believe it or not, I still loved pizza. Actually, all my prosperity notwithstanding, for the first 3 months I worked for this pizza place, I ate nothing but pizza - I would say, "my first 4 months," but sometime in my 4th month I ate a non-pizza sandwhich. I, and the other pizza joint workers, learned how to make every kind of pizza. Pizza bread had its beginning with the likes of us. Now you may question the right of bread to the accolade "pizza" and rightfully so if you taste the pizza bread from the local grocery store - but when we made pizza bread, it was PIZZA bread. And we made breakfast pizza. And it had pinnapple on it - and egg - and sausage - and maybe everything else you could think of to put in an omelette like olives, peppers, cheese, WHATEVER. And it was pizza or not depending on who made it and who ate it. So, I'm here to tell you that everyone's argument here has legitimacy. If I've offended any pizza purists, I'm sorry. You're right; I'm adulterated & not to be trusted. But pizza is not static. It is the glue that binds. May the moon in your eye like a big pizza pie be Amore. Tom

Anyone got anything against a straight answer around this joint? There's enough food on the menu; we don't have to eat each other for lunch. I hear that if you bite, you have to be careful not to consume each other. Makes sense to me. What's with the skating and dancing and jabbing anyway? Is this business of taking adversarial positions a means to an end? What possible end can justify such a mean means? What profit obfuscation? Apparently all sides figure the (each's) end justifies his/her means. Then there is no need for further discussion on this thread. Everyone agrees; isn't that nice? The end does justify the means. Or has the pursuit of knowledge been reduced to the quest for power because we've opted for plitical advocacy over the search for truth as per Alston Chase's warning? Isn't that what happened in TWI? Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. Tom

Good point, skyrider; I'm in complete agreement.

It depends on whether the mean is mean and whether someone's rear end is really getting justified by someone else's means or not. No, really. God doesn't use people. Any means that means using people is unjustified to begin with. It is a tree that can only turn out bad fruit. Good fruit will justify a good tree in the sense that it will prove the goodness that the tree had already. Only so can an end justify a means.

For what it's worth, here are some of my thoughts. I think they should have left the PFAL series as the one class it was originally designed to be. It was holy spirit for heaven's sake; it was SUPPOSED to be powerful. The idea that it had to be dumbed down because people couldn't handle the whole thing is bull. I think that idea is partially a result of another bulldinky idea that somehow Dr. Wierwille was the only one in the whole world able to teach the thing, so therefore it had to be put into a taped format to keep up with the growth. He couldn't accomplish on tape what he could in person - that's why it had to be spread out into three classes. Others could have and should have taught it powerfully as time went on. Not to do that was a quenching of the spirit and a centralization and a leavening. I think the 16 keys to walking by the spirit ARE common sense - for the most part; although, I dont think some of the keys are even backed up by the scripture references given for them. For example "Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite to revelation." is hard to accept for people who received revelation before they spoke in tongues or without speaking in tongues daily, and the reference IICor. 4:16 is pretty loose documentation for that key. I believe there is an amazingly close and positive correlation between speaking in tongues and a lively life int he spirit in all regards & Dr. Wierwille was trying to teach that, but "prerequisite?" Nah, limits God. I hesitate to call it leaven because speaking in tongues is so intrinsic to the life in the spirit, but I remember people speaking in tongues for days on end and wondering why they weren't getting all this revelation in large part as a result of this little bit of leavening. The same person who taught that key said that these 16 weren't all the keys - as someone else on this thread pointed out, that same VP also said that one of the keys was never to let yourself get put into a dogmatic box because then the spirit of God can't work, so... Be that as it may, the people I knew who were the most adept at walking by the spirit really had the advanced class down - the definitions, principles, keys. But a lot of that stuff we shared with each other in NY as we were learning that stuff before we ever took the advanced class. It was common sense to walking by the spirit, but not so common because walking by the spirit wasn't so common. If a friend told me I was going to get a ticket because I was going too fast and there was a cop around, I might slow down. But when God told me the same thing, I started yelling at him, asking him why he didn't warn me instead of telling me I was going to get a ticket - until I learned the "common sense" of the thing that he WAS warning me and all I had to do was slow down & I woudln't have gotten that ticket. See? The keys taught me how God talks to me. Invaluable. I love them. I think it is a lot like someone who takes martial arts. Bruce Lee said that before he started to learn the classic moves, a punch was a punch & a kick was a kick. But as he was trying to learn the classics, his sense of a punch and a kick was lost in the details. But after the moves became natural, again, a kick was a kick and a punch was a punch - only now he was doing it much more effectively. I don't think I ever screwed up on the "revelation given once can change" thing again quite so badly after that ticket. And the key about revelation given twice is established - God used that one in just an exquisite fashion to get me out of a ministry turned out of control machine known as TWI - without regret. Could intro to the walk in the spirit have been done better? Yes. Were the deficiencies part of the leavening? I think so - many of them at least. Hey, it was what it was. God still wants people to walk with him. And we still can. That's a very good thing.

Those who allowed that were the righteous people who didn't speak out against it when they could have. Evil people don't determine things. Righteous people do. Evil persists because righteous people punk out. They don't do the one thing that they are called to do - speak the truth in love. If enough people (many fewer than the evil - but enough)would speak the truth, evil would have to back up. If people had made a stand against Hitler earlier, the atrocities never would have happened - Hitler or no Hitler. The righteous hand it over. They lose by default. They don't open their mouths and speak the truth because... Ah, yes, we must protect the system.

Ex10, That's where it is, Ex. I think you nailed it; I think of the many times that it is written that Jesus had compassion on them and he healed them. First compassion, then healing. mdvaden, "The latter," The Way "is described as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the more abundant life...." by whom? By TWI? Or by the Word? Isn't that supposed to be the standard of faith and practice for TWI any more - the only standard? According to the Word, The Way IS the Lord Jesus Christ, not "followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the more abundant life...." "Followers of the Lord Jesus Christ" sounds nice, but you've just used the words of the Lord Jesus Christ that he used to define himself to render a definition of an organization in New Knoxville, OH - not a biblical definition. Quite a difference! TWI replaced the Lord Jesus Christ. Recognize it or not. 1 Corinthians 5:6 Â Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Obviously not. I'm not usually so nitpicky, but "That's the Words standard - at the mouth of two or three witnesses?" "That's?" What's "that's" refer to? Apparently, you think the Word's words, "at the mouth of two or three witnesses" are the same as your words, "if I don't experience it, and can't sit with the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses in person." The Word doesn't say that YOU have to experience it for it to be true. And the Word doesn't say that it has to be that you see it in person. You just added those requirements to the Word. Aww, heck, just a liiitle bit of leaven! Result of this little bit of leaven? You've got many more than the two or three witnesses that the Word requires, and you just said flat out that you won't believe it anyway; thereby calling not only all the witnesses liars, but doing the opposite of what the Word says you should do - and quoting the Word as your authority for doing so. I'm afraid that people here have had just a liiitle bit too much of that already. Somehow, I don't think that will fly here. That's okay; people here understand that there is a whole lot more to adjust to when it comes to considerations of "The Way" than first meets the eye of TWI associates or ex-associates. mdvaden, I think it is really cool that you had the experince that you did in Portland despite the fact that there are many super wonderful believers in Portland whose lives would be totally trashed today were it up to TWI and "The Way" [erroneously referred to as the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ - really meaning a "ministry" based in New Knoxville, Ohio box 45871]. Thankfully, their lives weren't up to "The Way" [erroneously referred to as the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ - really meaning a "ministry" based in New Knoxville, Ohio box 45871]; their lives were up to the Way, the Lord Jesus Christ. But still, I really do think it is cool that you had the experience that you did. Apparently, there are some really pure hearted people still around that can still do godly things in certain areas. But I seriously disagree that the money thing doesn't matter more than that you feel free to disagree with TWI policy. Likewise, I disagree with your feeling that as long as the things that people are saying about TWI don't affect your life, you should continue as you are. That's the same logic that allowed Hitler's doctrine and practice to effect the attrocities that it did. It's like a heroin addict saying that because he is a good hearted fellow, he really doesn't support the drug trade. A little leaven does leaven the whole lump. You can't put new wine into old wineskins. Before the wineskin bursts, you will be squeezed out. It's just umm, the truth, oh thou biblical student. Galatians 4:30 Â Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Thank you very much for the high compliment, Belle. Tom

Hmm, I've been thinking for a long time now that it worked the other way around - that when they institutionalized and ritualized the process, that's when they failed to deliver the goods. I figure that when VP didn't trust Jesus to be the head of the body, he used instruments of institution to centralize control in his own hands. The "joints and bands" through which the head, Jesus Christ, ministered [now that's true ministering] nourishment to the body were replaced by the "guidelines" of the Way Tree. These "guidelines," of course, were then presented as an aspect of doctrine, introducing legalistic requirements into the body. Jesus taught his disciples to take heed and to be beware of this "leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" which was "the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees," to beware of it. We have to beware of this doctrine because, like leaven, it starts little, and, like leaven, it leavens the whole lump. Likewise, legalistic requirements were introduced into the body as "guidelines," but "This persuasion doesn't come from him that called you [us]. A little leaven leavens the whole lump." Galatians 5:8&9 Over time, as the whole lump was leavened, these "guidelines" became more & more absolute control over our flesh. The other side of this legalistic control was the sexual immorality which some gloried in. 1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven (talking about fornication) leaveneth the whole lump? The legalism and the lack of sexual restraint – this is the hypocrisy involved in the leavening process. Luke 12:1 … first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. This process continued in TWI until the whole became like the "malice and wickedness" with which Egypt cruelly ruled over the children of Israel, slaves from which to extract every ounce of effort with less and less to work with. So, what was the solution? 1 Corinthians 5:7 ¶Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us: While they were purging us out, we were supposed to be purging them out. Sarah had the right idea when she said to get rid of the bondwoman for she wouldn't be heir with the freewoman, but would persecute her. And we are directed to be new in the Passover sacrifice - the cross that Wierwille hated and Martindale hated even more. Because in the sacrifice of Jesus with his blood on the doorway to our hearts, the evil one is made to pass over our families. The malice and wickedness of the oppressor has no access. There is no ego of man that can maintain face in the face of him who had to have his own face torn beyond recognition to make up for our inability to put on a face worth taking a picture of to put into a scrapbook. There is no class division beyond his suffering. On the contrary, THAT's where the healing takes place. It is as entirely appropriate that Jesus' sacrifice as our Passover should be mentioned in a thread about Ministering to people??? and TWI as it is that it should be mentioned in 1 Corinthians in the context of oppression and wickedness. There is another really cool thing about leaven. The kingdom of God is like leaven “which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.” The kingdom of God was hidden in us until our whole becomes leavened. Hypocrisy shall end “for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.” The lump that was TWI is known. The lump that is the body of Christ is still being leavened, becoming the bread of life.

Indeed, good point, ex. What a dark place TWI was! 2 Corinthians 3:4 Â And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Â Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God.