sky4it

Invisible Dan: I enjoyed your post and very much agree. Wordwolf: Thanks for the info. Guys: I'm not sure it serves any meaniful purpose to discuss the adventures of John Lynn, except to perhaps seek some input as to what the current practices are and provide a forum for opinion on that topic. 2 nights ago on a late show the host and star concurred that, "All publicity in show business is good show business." I am not applying this directly to Lynn's organization but answers not forthcoming about current doctrine mirroring that of "The Ways" old stuff, it certainly is the question that pops up in my mind.

The other thing about the trinity is this, its just a diagram giving honor, whats so horrible about that? In addition it looks Biblically correct to me. It was like they just couldnt live unless they ruined everyone else's party, and made them feel like snot. Then they'd have to join the organization to get it all right.

The other thing about the trinity is this. Its a diagram for crying out loud. Its harmless and looks biblically correct.

MJ412: That stuff about your friend, I am so sorry. I really am. I never understood the point about decimating the trinity. Sure they came up with it during the Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed. ( Danny any thoughts, your terrific with history.) Regardless it wasnt anything that impacted a believers life, wether he believed it or not. It was also the main doctrine, (with a few others that would have) that catapulted The Way into Cult status. It's just it wasnt even necessary to bring it up at all. If it aint broken why fix it.

If there is one blessing it is the fact that not using your head for spiritual things is a blessing. I mean the brain. Walk in the spirit not in the brain. The God the Word stuff has gotta go. The tough thing is, I did it on my own with the help of Jesus. Who says no man is able to pluck me out of his hand. Got no regrets. Got no thanks to give to men either.

Raf: I really have difficulty with this research papar on adultry. I really am wondering how far this nonchalant doctrine about adultry permeated not the brass but the other members throughout. Certainly members who remained sexually pure throughout could be somewhat grateful for someone taking a stand. That's fine. Still, wouldnt those same members have objected to the mere thought of it if it were introduced to them and run? Wasn'nt this issue kinda known and passified throughout? It sure as hell made me get out of there when i suspected it might be going on? Where's my accolades Raf? I dont see these same people standing around saying there sorry for permitting it all these years and how it affected me. From that standpoint this "researcher" didnt' doanything more than I already suffered there Raf. It's like saying , "Gee lets go do some reasearch to see if I have a nose on my face." Certainly someone had to stand up to them, but it wasnt like people werent bailing for this and other reasons anyway. Therefore in my mind to give some crony kudos for stating the insanely obvious, is like back slapping Nazi's who bailed when they thought they were going to lose the war or was it rather bailed because they couldnt take the pain they were inflicting on others? I aint judging them either Raf, because only God knows what there participation was, or the reason they tried to "make the stand." The point simply is wheres the apologies in proper for teaching doctrines of such a nature from the time they really did know about it? From this standpoint, i really have to agree with MJ412. If what they did helped you and others, thats great. It's just it never made the food they served me proper, cause I got the hell out of there long before I had to hear these bone heads say it wasnt right. And heres the major point RAF, there in there years and years and it takes em that long to figure out adultry is wrong? Thats not just retarded RAF, thats demented. It's like , I bumped into a "Christian Group" who dehabilitated me. If there healthy now good for them. Personally i just couldnt ever trust some one like that.

Mj412 I couldnt agree more with the relevance of an honest and pure heart analogy part of your topic. :)--> As I said on another thread, it really never was what TWI had that really frightened me, but what I thought they never wanted. With relation to Ministries and such, I certainly think that term is often used inapprobrately. Noah ministered with a hammer and a nail in the sight of everyone. There is something about our Lord that often gets missed. He is so low, in fact made a little lower than the angels. I think he is that way because he accessible to all of us. This trait so makes me love him. I agree with your assertations that ministers who are inaccessible are really just tyrants for themselves. The ministry can and does become the focal point, instead of the individual. I think that means MJ, that the work you and I and other unrecognized peons are doing for others , is what the Lord really wants.

mj412: After reading all your posts, I am speechless. Really? So your saying all the diodes are hooked up and Frankenstien liveth?

Uncle Harry: Most of my recollection on EW Bullinger is that he really didnt "teach" anything. He had a couple books, but the companion bible is just a reference thing, that specializes in outlines and appendixes, pretty stale stuff. He really wasnt a whole lot different than reading a youngs or strongs concordance. In that regard, it really isnt bad stuff. The difficulty is, a lot of folks one would think, could never enjoy any of that on there own again. It made stuff from him and others seem evil, including the Bible.

Thank you Raf and Lifted up: Wordwolf: Still wondering about my question in the previous post. I do concur with your thinking on the MOGFOT thing, that certainly would be "Diode # 4" in which seemed to make Frankenstien thrive best. Frankenstien still can wobble around a lot and do some serious damage just with those three diodes hooked up tho. I dont remember much about mogfot in my days there.

Wordwolf: and others: Thats a noteworthy point with one execption, somebody posted it here with someones presumed authority? :)--> Did it therefore bring us up to speed on current matters? With respect to the stuff that occured in the 1980's: I can't believe someone did a "research paper" on wether Adultry was wrong or not. That really sounds retarded. Most of us that went to Sunday School heard it was wrong before we even new what sex was. Then the cue ball "not taught like since the first century thing shows up", and it dwarfs the writings of "Martin Luther". It just sounds so idiotic. I also have a question. Was that "not taught since the first century thing" a quote in a book, in the Pfal class, or just simply a line floating around? I really dont remember. Raf- Any thoughts?

Pirate I love the Holy Grail I dont need no stinkin holy grail, thing, it made me laugh a lot.

Raf: Here's somthing you might find interesting too. Watchmen Nee, who died in 1972 wrote about the body, soul and spirit in his book The Spriritual Man (A three part series). Nee, a chinese citizen, books were translated into English. I dont know the time that Werewille's book was published on the subject, I presume that Nee's were prior, but you might want to check it out.

Keith: Your comment: If they say they have a corner on the truth, or that TWI used to – run I think that says a lot. It also says you have faith. Read John Lynn's letter and the comment about "the first century thing." Can you say run to that? In my mind, the former leadership in TWI, would be better served and serve others for apologizing for preaching that "1st century church bunk.", then starting new groups and re-inventing Frankenstien. I literally got nauseated reading that John Lynn letter, literally.

Three excerpts from John Lynn letter: 1) I think that we all did hear much of the Word "as it has not been taught since the first century." 2) I thank God that I was taught the inherent keys to the Word's interpretation. They are still true, 3) In closing, let me say that I honestly believe that Dr. Wierwille would be very proud of what we are doing. We have taken the keys to the Word's interpretation that he taught us and we have used them to evaluate his own teachings, correcting those that did not agree with Scripture. Jeff: It looks to me like diode 1,2,3, above are being hooked up to see if he can get Frankenstien to walk again. Are you kidding me? Mr. John Lynn: Why is it that you need Dr Wierwille's presumed acknowledgement to validate what you are doing? Still rambling on about hearing the word "as it's not been taught since the first century?"How exactly, do you trust a God that would leave His word in such disarray until the appearance of the writings of Werewille? If you seriously believe that you cannot have trust in God at all. What exactly was God doing in those 1900 years, sleeping? Still correcting scripture with scripture? It's the same old giggle juice isn't it? Repackaged with a different vendor with what 25 corrections? Is the doctrine perfect now? Should I shuffle the Biblical deck some more? Is it possible that God didnt want his word limited by any man and thats the meaning of not "using it for private interpetation?" But then it kinda ruins the "not since the first century church thing" doesnt it? Tell me this Johnie, was it the baker or the butler that ruined the Pharoh's store? It certainly looks to me like someones in the bath tub playing with the same rubber ducky that was there 22 years ago. Gang: Here's what I can't stand gang. Love doesnt vaunt itself right? And yet we find the same old high wire vaunting act that went on 22 years ago with this , " not taught since the first century church thing." It certainly looks like the underlings have exceeded the masters in pusuit of the meaning of scriptures. Maybe I should mention King Agag of the Old Testament, so then some "Biblical Researcher", could show up and tell us all how the King Agag name came down through the English language in order to form the understanding of the term A gag, or was it a gig? Either way, then they'd have to whitewash the "out of the mouth of babes and sucklings" biblical phrase as a figure of speech, in order to prove it takes research not sincerity and desire to understand the scriptures. I just wish King Agag would pull the gag out of his mouth. This looks really lame.

Jeff: After reading the JAL letter, it really gave me the hebe jeebies. I got some serious problems with it and all post that on the "open letter from John lynn thread" later. For starters it dont look very "open", if the guy has you posting letters and hes not around to answer the people in this rooms comments.

Jeff USAF: I have a couple questions for you and 2 opinions. I wasnt around in the years you speak of so I dont know what happened. Since this guy had to write a paper on adultery saying it was a sin and others took offense to it,was adultry an accepted practice in The Way prior to this letter and after is this correct? Or was it just tolerated? Either way, just that issue is a problem. How can people that are so "profoundly" indebted to the teaching of the word miss that one anyway, when you can find it on every street and corner in the reading that exist in the scripture? I don't get that one at all. I also had a serious issue to how the book of Job was handled, at least from what someone told me. Again, it never bothered me half as much, what Way people had , as what I didn't think they wanted. If ex or splinter groups dont address such issues, I dont see how running the same format could be very beneficial, it would simply be re-thinking "Frankenstien". In addition, the "wrong doctrine" or missing stuff, make whats good kinda rotten to those who went thru it and how do you deal with that? The adultry is wrong concept is so basic, that if you cant pick that up in a few weeks, it really makes you wonder, whats with that? Awaiting your reply.....................

With respect to that believing = recieving thing, what difference does it make wether you believe it or not? I mean it either works or it doesn't right? If it aint working by now maybe thats one yah wanna toss. The bigger issue with me was always not what they had, but what they apparently didn't want. I really dont have any recollection of anyone telling me about the cross of Christ and applying that to the old man. Particularily Paul said , at times thats the only thing he wanted to preach was this, For I determined to know nothing amoung you save Jesus Christ and him crucified." I Corinthians 2:2 I certainly thought they didn't wanna discuss it much either, because it might take away something that they wanted to do today. In retrospect, that might of been a good thing eh?

Personally, I think some of that stuff is like super glue, it a rascal to get the stuff off. The key word your all using is some, the problem is what is that some exactly? The other difficulty is that every group has a fearless leader and who knows where there head is at? but God Bless em if there getting there lives in working order. Personally, its nice to throw the lifelines around this web site and hope it helps.

One other Golden Nugget for the Heavy Heart: As your sifting through the debris, here is something to consider. Watchman Nee in his 3 part book titled "The Spiritual Man", similarly divides man into three parts, body , soul and spirit. It appears that Nee died in 1972. Presumably therefore his writings proceeded those of VPW. Any ways the comparisons of the two teaching are pretty similar, except that Nee seemed to take the analogy one step further and divide man's spirit into 3 more parts, intuition, conscience and communion. I'm not sure I ever found intellectually compartmentalizing spiritual activity like this beneficial though. Moreover, the biggest benefit I gleaned from this book was that our intellect or mind seems to function better as a servant of out spirit, rather than the other way around. Ie (Using intellectual knowledge more so than ones spirit.) Oddly, with excesses of words this was kind of the trap of the mind. In addition there is some other tidbits about the application of the cross to our flesh, that I thought were appropriate. Furthermore, I don't remember that ever being highly topical, at least not in my experience from the Way. Other Nee books, I personally wouldn't recommend. I found them unnecessarily repetitive about meandering things. Years ago I also heard that some of those books may have been written by his followers and rubber stamped with his name on. I do not however know if this was true. Oddly, when I looked on the Internet, there seemed to be some groups that had fallen prey to similar type problems of dysfuntionate behavior that focused on his writings. The skinny of the matter is , whether Nee taught it or VPW taught it, that one seems like a keeper. Another nugget that you guys already possess to keep yourself upbeat, is that you gotta get up pretty early in the morning to fool people thats been through this stuff. And that you guys perhaps might be the biggest benefit of all for all of yah. Later -----

Raf: Thanks Man, this is a refreshing place. On a somewhat humorous and pointed note, I do think this ministry would have been served better by addition rather than subtraction, at least in reference to redesigning the Trinity. By adding "God the Word", they could have created "God the Square." This however would have had 2 unfortunate side consequences: 1) "God the Square" would have had to hung a sign on the other three fellas saying , "Were mutes" or "Were on Vacation." 2) I can't imagine hippies, punksters and hip hoppers tossing out there meandering ways in favor of "God The Square." Pun intended. :)-->

Invisible Dan: Thanks for the welcome mat. It's nice to have a place where you can rub off theclods of mud that were stuck on my feet 20 years ago. It's not like you can discuss "Way Doctrine" with people who dont know what it is. They already have it categorized into a box but never understood Weirwille's theories. Your point about experience is well taken. You have to apply the Word Of God along the way. The opposite with the way was you let the Word of God apply you. Interestingly, the teachings of VPW flourished at a time when churches were still deeply divided over doctrines of babtism, the Virgin Mary, and other things. Many of us young people were looking for a way to sort all of this out. VPW more than seized the moment, he tried to steal the whole show. Since I have an analytical type mind, it really made me think. I always wondered why the way had to say everything both forwards and in reverse. Like " it means what it says and says what it means. At some point, (and I clawed my way out of this all by my lonesome), the shell game was kinda obvious. Yes 1 + 1 = 2, and 2 = 1 +1, however 1 does not equal 2 + 1. A person can find these inconsistecies if you really look. later

As a sidebar, this would make good foder for the next Johnnie Rambo First Blood Movie. Johnie joins a religious organization, the sheep run off, and Johnny Rambo runs around the country demanding they all come back.

You bring up a very valid point. If you get a Vines expositary dictionary of new testament words, it gets even murkier. For example, some words could be translated to any one of 4, 5,6,7, other words making everything more obscure. Suffice it to say, there is not need to be a word "genie".

Geo: Thank you and I agree. :)-->. I never really thought about that one either but its a great point. By the time I was outta there i was clicking my heals. later man