sky4it

Raf: What is that a picture of actually. At first i thought it was a salamander only to look at little closer and it has two green eyes coming out of its head? Is that my mother in law?

Geo: Your comment: And re:"With respect to the Bible, the prophecies in Isaiah and elsewhere about Christ certainly give authenticity to the writings." Uh, How? A Virgin shall concieve and be found with child to The voice of Rachaels children weeping (Jeremiah) His name shall be called the wonderful, the prince of peace etc Isiah 53:2-12 A literal description of the life of Christ. I could list 25 other references but is that what your really want? Nawwwwwwwwwww. your comment: I'm sorry buddy, but for a non-theist, there's just not enough to go on. If you enjoy it, well I guess that's your business, and I'm not trying to be derisive or confrontational, but for the life of me, I can't see the difference between your chosen "faith" and simple self-delusion. No problem. I'm not one who is upset if they dont see things as I do. I certainly wont try forcing anything upon you becuase your take on matters is significatly different than mine. Niether will I be scurrying around wondering if what your saying is valid. To me there's nothing subjective about it. Niether does your beleif system make me feel threatened either Geo, so feel free to punch holes in my "chosen faith" anytime. I just will never see where the concept of finding faith is all that difficult when the author said it was not. The fact that many make it so, doesn't validate the ops of those who use that as an excuse to invalidate what it really is. Why? Because the Almighty said it was not.

Oak: I dunno know oak. If I really beleived what you said, that would make God unfair. I dont believe he is. I beleive God is righteous. I also think atheists and agnostics tend to homogenize there "objectivity" in a way that suits there own lifestyle, more than Christians believe what they do in order not to upset there own little world of beliefs. True, you can find multitudes of religions to support your arguement, but that doesn't change the fact that the paradigm for the gospel is very very simple so that all can beleive. It was always my view as a Christian that TWI made a simplistic plan overly complex to be self serving. The gospel warns us that there will be those who do so.

Geo: Re:"I dont think I am preaching a set of beliefs either. All I need is Christ, and I know that he was crucified." But... isn't THAT a belief? That's the disconnect I was talking about. HOW do you know that there even WAS a Jesus Christ or that he was crucified? What possible proof could there be? Isn't this simply an idea you accept or reject? Why should anyone give an credence to the Bible? Why? I was fortunate Geo, in that I was saved and filled with the Holy S. before I bumped into TWI, so I didnt need to homogenize my expereince with them. Interestinly, I never did anymore than simply take PFAL, and is set off a meter in me that something wasnt right. With respect to the Bible, the prophecies in Isaiah and elsewhere about Christ certainly give authenticity to the writings. I am deeply sadened that you can't take any experience to legitimize God in a daily way for yourself (if this is what has happened) My prayer for you is that God will make it individually real for you, because I really don't know what else to say. I knew a man once in a Pentacostal church who proclaimed that the Lord had shown himself to this man in a very supernatural way. ( His story was very profound) He served the Lord for about 5 years. Sometime later he was back into a very terrible life style and had denied the Lord. I asked him why. He told me that he had done more than most people, and if there wasnt more in it for him, he wanted his life style. So he was dictating the terms to God.

Oakspear: I dont know if you read my comments to you above. Your comment: "I see convincing evidence, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christianity is true" I have that evidence with one exception, I had to have faith first.

Dart: your comment: I think you’re only looking at a few aspects of Jesus’ pre-Calvary ministry. On the cross he “hung out” with 3 antagonistic criminals I have 15 credits of Biblical greek, i disagree with the 4 thieves thing. Neither was this topic ever ever relavant to anything to mankind. Would we be anymore saved if he had been crucified with 8 thieves or 10? Then why bring it up. If you want to start debating theology I suppose I could. but there is no point in adressing issues that have not relavance toward salvation or Godliness. Dont you think?

dmiller: thanks, appreciate that. :)-->

Dart: Your comment: (there comes a time and point I beleive when complaints are excessive if there is no corresponding motion to move forward sky4it). But you dont know that she is not moving forward do you. Some people are profoundly hurt. I dont know what Rascal's experience was. I certainly read a lot of MJ comments and I was very saddened by what he said. Is Rascal hurting JAL? He has books and an audience, what does she have?, let her go in peace with the Lord. She will do this.

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Rascal: dart has numerous posts but he did not respond to mine. Please read my comments to you above his last post.... thanks and keep your chin up.

Rascal: These days you have this rather large gem stone in your hand and I'm wondering if you really see how valuable this really is? You can now be in any situation any type of people, ( freinds, family, church or job) and quickly tell if people are maniupulating you. This is a huge benefit. God never motivates us by guilt but by love. While it is true our conscience feels quilt when we have done wrong, I see nothing in our Lord that motivates us nor does he compell us by making us feel quilty. This gives us a huge advantage in life, for we can quickly sort out truth from error. This is this one scripture I never understood until I also experienced the ravages of man. "For God is not unrighteous to forget our labor of love...." Hebrews something. Anyway, its a scripture of hope when we have done well and been dissed. I'm gonna hound you rascal towards our unmovable fixture of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Neither is your relationship with him need to be impoverished because of the abuses of men. Rather he can turn those abuses into your riches. Now that really isnt soo intimidating is it? :)--> :)-->

Geo: Your comment: These folks are all as convinced as you (it would seem) as to the veracity of their particular belief system. Yet, they cannot all be right if you are(and vice versa), can they? People believe all sorts of stuff. And there are absolute, sold-out zealots in just about every religion you can think of. Every bit as convinced of the rightness of their faith (and the wrongness of everyone elses) as you seem to be. How can you be so sure you're not just deluding yourself? Somebody someplace must be, no? First, Geo, I am not absolutely convinced of the veracity of my particular belief system. Niether does is bother me. Why? Because I am persuaded that God is more concerned about his relationship with me than he is particular sets of doctinal beliefs. It is God that works in me that I focus on. I am persuaded beyond doubt that this is the way God would have it. It is my faith the Lord focus's on. This is real. This is simple. Hell, Geo, I have a JW friend too. He tries to convert me everytime I have dinner at his place. Where does he lose me? When he starts throwing the Greek towel around like thats more important than my personal relationship with Christ thats where. I have been in and out of at least 9 different Christian groups all with varying sets of doctrines. I could give a hoot about most of it. Why? Because most doctrines dont have any basis in ordinary day to day living and how that plays out. Like the rapture and the Virgin Mary and creeds, they dont save me, so why be hamstrung by it. I dont think I am preaching a set of beliefs either. All I need is Christ, and I know that he was crucified. There is an interesting story that I want to tell you: Richard Wurmbrand a jailed Lutheran minister in communist Romania tells this story. There was a man who was jailed and beaten in the severe communist days. He had always been told that God did not exist according to communist ideology. After years of torture , he began to cry out to God to help him if he existed. The prison guards heard his crys. In order to torment him even more, some guards took a bible and ripped out a few small words of it and gave it to him. The words said, " And the Lord said to Jeremiah". Upon hearing that, that man said, if the Lord can speak to this man Jeremiah surely he can speak too me. Upon saying that he was filled with the Holy Ghost, having known nothing about the teachings of Christ. Doctrine? What doctrine did he have. My point is simply that we cannot limit the almighty and why should we? All I want is to know him and that is a good enough "doctrine" for me.

Dart: Your comment about Rascal: JAL addressed potential complainers and whiners but NEVER stated you were one nor did he dismiss all as such. YOU assumed that role for yourself. I think that is unfair of you Dart. Peoples experiences have widely varied from The Way and Ex Way types. Some folks are genuinely wounded. It does not good to dismiss such folks complaints as excessive, it only serves the purpose of poisioning there hurting faith in God. People need genuine love for healing, not bullets. I see it differently. These are not Rascals whining or complaints but hurts. She needs the ability to express them. Anything else IMO, is intimidation. These people here have no book to write, no audience that hears them. JAL has that. Why shouldnt they have simple expression without it being labeled as complaints or whining?

oakspear see above George: The difficult part of this dialog is that there is a disconnect between the believer and the skeptic. There is a certain point in the believer's mind beyond which he will not go, for to tread in that territory would put at risk all he has come to hold dear for all the years of his "believing" stature. You know what tho George that has never been so with me. I not talking about the difference between skeptic and believer tho. I have found that over the course of time what I believe becomes modified the more I know the Lord. This is best served with an illustration. I used to think the Wrath of God was inconsistent with a loving God and I was uncertain how to reconcile the two. It made me somewhat fearful of taking a wrong turn, then thinking anything bad happening to me was the wrath thing. My view on this has deeply changed. I now see the wrath of God as simply God walking away and leaving man to his own self. Self destruction would ensue. When does God walk away? When (I think) he has tried every thing possible to set the road straight in a mans life. This is consistent with love also, for God could not be "righteous" if he enabled man to be "wicked." I find myself in much more freedom these days, knowing God is not standing with a chip on his shoulder for any vice I may have. It makes it more of a "partnership" than it does a I am scared chitless thing. I realize I strayed off the beaten path of your topic. But I think it necessary, for there have been times I was clueless as to what he was doing, only to find out later, that he had a very valid reason for doing what he did. My point is simply that I believe if there is something within us that is harmful, God will challenge our faith to enlarge it. If I didnt live this way on a daily basis, I would be frustrated and "skeptical" of what he is doing. I think some skeptism is healthy. I think God delights in the opportunity to change our skeptism into stronger faith. Noticeably in the gospels, faith is tested and becomes gold, silver or brass. Therefore the quality of it can be modified. It is also eternal, and one thing that we can take with us.

oakspear: Okay sky, I don't doubt your experience; but do you think that your subjective experience is superior to the experience of a non-Christian, and if so, why? Here is why that I understand that faith in Christ is the chosen plan. In order to have my experience validated you must have faith, (you have heard that), faith is simply an interest, a respect for his majesty in my eyes. Without a pure heart, you cannot enter into the presence of the Almighty. In my quest it has been validated in this method, so that it is objective (my experience) to me not subjective. I realize my experince does you little good other than to describe a path I know that works. If a person mingles adultry , fornication and wickedness with an attempt to know God, one will only come up confused. One cannot come to God on thier terms, they must come to him oh his terms. This is the meaning of the word believe. Believe encompasses encompasses a value that believes that what that person does for me, is better than what I can do myself for me. This is the essence (IMO) of the Christian faith. I do not become a lessor sinner because of myself. I am changed by beholding his face. The things is hes and his attributes become gradually a facet of my life. Throughout this process the concept of competing Gods to me is utter foolishness. Certainly I could give you personal illustrations as "proof", but I think "proof" of ones faith is individual, because you would be less prone to believe a personal illustration than you would the method I think faith is validated.

Oakspear: Without doubt, without equivocation, I know that Christ died and rose again. My experiences with him personally, leave me without doubt. Religions vary, but God in Christ is the truth. I am troubled, that, some who went through the way , dont have this experience. It is personal. It is real because it is personal. This is my displeasure with those who make Gods word not so.

ckeer: yes i remember something like that,,, and yet, life or reality is not so simple, there are many hard blows, I think God can use these sufferings, not cause we "feared", but because he loves us and can use them for good. thanks

Galen: It appears to me that you may have been blessed for bieng in the military for 20 years, maybe you missed some of the bad things and God preserved you for only the good , i think thats great. MJ, is a person, IMO , who really loves the Lord. I think he was very frustrated thats all. Everyones experience varies somewhat, you know?

Wordwolf: I wasnt trying to drivel about the past, sorry. Just looking for some new insights from you guys. I'm sure you have covered all the meaningful turf.

Hi its me the real sky4it. Lame joke. But really John if your reading you can come visit , talk, perhaps we should all lay aside doctinal and other things. Welcome to GS

ckeer: Your comment: BTW- Strongs says Elihu means "He is my God" and the Hebrew lexicon translates Elihu "whose God is He" Thanks, that kinda reinforced what I thought. Yeah I think he was that far off on that one. I remember hearing Job suffered cause he "feared", or had negative belief? Did anyone hear that one?

So were all done talking about Longsuffering? No stories that make it look sweet? Come on lets get it on, theres gotta be some?

I guess I never saw the conflict so I dont get it. Inactive faith = dead faith = no works, so???? I mean who wants to not know the Lord. The first century church forbide 2 things, fornication or adultry, and idolatry or things eat with the blood, sounds pretty simple to me? I dont see where James got off the beaten path?

oh, I think not.

The song remains: I think what makes suffering so inexorably difficult in a religous organization, is that it is unexpected. Of course, I thought the way kinda taught that suffering was religated to ones believing ( although that may have changed). Regardless, that view is kinda unrealistic. Anyways , in a religious organization you kind of expect better in terms of kindness and honesty. This is simply not the truth any any religious organization. You can find abusive people everywhere. Certainly in my life, I have suffered worse than the pratfals of men in cleric robes. Regardless the type of suffering, there ought to be some benefit to it, in terms of personal growth.