sky4it

Abigail: My comment: "Perhaps this is why, Abby, we need to be seperated from each other and "our beliefs", so that we can all take a good personal inventory. " Simply that, if it always "they" that are the problem and not "we" or "me", I have built my little totem pole of the I am right they are wrong philosophy of the first church of we got everything we need. So that being removed from all religion at times might be good religion in itself. At some point, I must look at God through the microscope of my own soul versus the microscope of religion which says God must act just like this. Yah know, I have to believe that God cares about all details of my life, because if he doesnt, I am screwed anyway. If Christ is the footprint of which we must all partake, I dont wanna say my foot is bigger than his. This is the extrodinary problem I think we all have Abby, making Christ so complex. Since he was made " lower than the angels", for me its about understanding how someone so great can be so simple and small. It is the lesson that is hard to learn; for we want to grab on to the reigns of power but not the meekness of his life. In the end he will rule from a throne that is upside down ( in our view) disdained by the wicked, honored by many, perhaps loved by few. Why? Because the masses want popularity where God wants cleanliness. I think if we miss this we might just miss him.

Abby: I think as young people, we took an natural aversion to "suffering for Christ" and whatever that means. We wanted to have fun. It didn't help that traditional orthodox "Christianity", in itself looked like suffering. It made "stuff" like TWI seem more appealing. Still, I never saw how the gospel preaches "suffering" as a centerpiece. If sin is truly harmful, perhaps we ought to have better evaluated what was harmful about it. Then we could have experienced life, without feeling the Bible was hamstringing us. I don't think any suffering is deliberate from God to make us worse for the wear. Why is it that the things that I suffer liberate me from the very things that I fear and dread? The opinions of men without love and kindness have always felt like thorns in my underwear when I sit down and thorns in my feet when I walk. We can't live in this life without someone evaluating every crook and craw wether they are Christian or not. This I find dispicable. Perhaps this is why, Abby, we need to be seperated from each other and "our beliefs", so that we can all take a good personal inventory. The other thing I have been rethinking is about what sin itself really is. For example, if someone asks you what you are doing today (because they are making plans for you to do something for them) and you tell them a "white lie", like say you have to do something that you really don't is this a lie? I think not. The Word of God was more detailed and said "bear false witness". It would be my view that a "false witness" would only be sin if it was a damaging lie to someone else. Ie( like lying in court or gossip which afflicts someone). I think this is important becasue if the Word of God doesnt function to assist us in love, it just trips us up in little things that are irrelevant. Well, I rambled on, but its been fun.

abby: This blend: This: "I accept what comes my way as from his higher purpose. " is the Chassidic view as well. Never heard the term Chassidic before. I just wanted to add, I think it may be dangerous to think like this all the time and just be passive. Certainly there are things we can change by our responses to life itself. I didnt meant this in a way that I can sit idle. Unargueably, there are things that happen in our lives that we cannot change. To me its acceptance by default. I just wanted to clarify that. Your comment: I have become very protective and at times quite defensive if I feel like someone is trying to pegeonhole me. A wounded spirit who can bear? You know my spirit has been wounded also after which it becomes hard to trust others. It's my view Abby, that real love from others never tries to control someone. I think you are quite right tho to be protective over your own spirit. By the way thanks, I enjoyed your posts. :)-->

Abby: Ok i will roll up my sleves and give it my best. By the way Abby, I am not critizing you for being sceptical and objective and searching for your own best view. I think that is healthy. Your comment: I would be interested in your thoughts on how one goes about "chasing after the goal", I'm going on the understanding that the goal is being perfected. Let me tell you my experience. My daughter had Luekiemia at age 5. My wife for the last 10 years has been on excesses of prescription drugs. I lost my business at one time. My college degree I have rarely used. I haven't been to church for 2 years because they gossip about my wife. I am not telling you this to complain Abby. My point is simply what ever it takes in God's eye, to perfect me I accept. The amazing thing to me is this. I really dont have to do anything to impress God. I accept what comes my way as from his higher purpose. Then, I don't have to strive to gain God's acceptance. If pleasing God is doing meaningless things that no one else appreciates, I accept it. I think God is that simple. Somehow in all of this I have stopped caring about what those around me think. Sure it hurts when no one appreciates you or gossips about you. I think this is all part of the process of bieng perfected. Simply letting God build a better character in me. Your comment: I would also be interested in understanding what it is you view as being "the Word of God." I think the Bible is the basis of the Word of God. Naturally, wether by TWI or otherwise it is convoluted in mans hands. I guess i just simply plod along in life Abby, and at times those scriptures take on new meaning to me. Personally, I have seemed to have more success understanding more of it, on a forward basis. With religion and theologies, everything is so pigeonholed by different organizations. I think its dangerous to think something means this and only this. If God is of infinite understanding and we are not, doesn't it make better sense to not try and figure out everything? I am these days so amused by those who pigeonhole the book of Revelation. In one place it says the book is sealed. Why then try to understand the dynamics of the stuff thats sealed. I guess my belief on the word of God could be summed up in this, " I think I know a little, I think I know enough." Thats good enough for me. Sorry if you thought I was disrespectful, I admit I was trying to stir your drink a little, just to see the way you thought tho. :)--> PD

ACT2: If you had read some of my posts you would see I am a critic of TWI. My experience was years ago and limited.(The only thing I did was attend the Pfal class and I think 1 twig fellowship) I never apologized for TWI and thought something was wrong even after I took the PFAL class. The biggest plus for me was it made me search more. So glad to hear that you are doing well tho.

It was at a time when various religions were holding fast to there doctrinal positions that they asserted were "more correct" than the competition. Personally and I think for all of us, we were disconcerted that finding the simple truth should have so many variations. We wanted to do what was right, but in order to do that had to know what was right. Neither were the "elders" or older people of any help in the matter; for they couldn't satisfy the need to resolve doctrinal disputations. In all of this "mess" listed above, TWI came to conclusions; even as convoluted as they were. The Bemefit? To me it challenged me. It challenged my faith to grow and learn more about God. Looking back, I think that was good.

Abby: your comment: Moderation. Biblical principle, no? I am a huge believer in practicing moderation in all areas of life. I agree. From your questions however you seem to indicate that what I was indicating was the need for some phycho neurotic need for extremistist form of religion. I really dont think I did Abby. I do however realize, that that was precisely the form of religion prescibed by some ex wayers and the Jesus movement, and I understand your antipathy for it; because I share your feelings about it. Still, Abby, I fail to see the need to relate "being perfected" with such blight. Perfection after all, stems from grace, which is in deference to these things I mentioned. Therefore Abigail, cut me some slack, your drownding me in cultist moronic excesses.

Geo: Yah know Geo, I can live with what you say about not believing God exists, can you live with it tho? When the Lord shows up some day, I just hope your not disappointed. Your comment: Gee, why doesn't God speak to us? I bet I can think of a reason... yeah well guess what Geo, so can I think of reasons. Will we then have to have a reason why he spoke after we heard his voice also? My point is that to not believe God exixts, is willful ignorance, and that is written in Peter also. And if you take my point hard or think I am bieng difficult on you, no I am not Geo. Isn't it better to be in your face about something that is wrong than coddling something you know is not true? Therefore I think its considerate for me to take a swipe at you.

Abigail: I agree with everything you said with one exception. It seems to me the point of the gospel is to be "perfected" or be found without spot and blame in Christ. Therefore if that goal isnt chased after, the "hearing" will never come out right. Don't you think? your comment: Do you think anyone of us always hears God perfectly and never mixes up what God is telling us with what we are telling ourselves? Thats one of the reasons I like to listen to my dreams. Your right, it is difficult to sort out what you think the spirit is saying versus the reasoning of your own mind. Interestingly, the Point of the Word of God is to seperate "the thoughts and intents of our hearts" I think if we let it do that, which voice is which can be more clear.

Uncle Harry: your comment: The question implies that God DOES speak to you. And I know thats a scary thought. Because if anyone says that they presume authority from God. This always bothered me also about those who said the Lord told me this and the Lord told me that. In my experience, 99.9 percent of things are handled by wisdom , growth and experience. The words of God are always easy to be intreated and gentle. Mens spirits are not. So the word becomes convoluted or twisted. Topically I bring it up to distance myself from the Thus saith the Lord thing. I think communication with him can be more intimate than that and not like hearing words that are like cement roads.

Abigail: I think the scripture that says take heed what you hear, means that we can hear things differently. There is a correct way to hear and an incorrect way to hear or else why take heed to hearing. Thats all I am saying. Your comment: To every man his own truth and his own God within. Uh ok abby, as long as its the one true God from within.

Abigail: your comment: Maybe he does, but we just aren't very good at hearing Him. Ahh, Abigail, at last we agree on something. Perhaps that is why it was said " to take heed to what we hear" Hearing is the difficult part, for how do we hear it? Do we hear it in a window of manipulation where we want to make it work in a manner that is to our understanding or benefit? Or do we hear it in a way which says I can understand what it means thru God's explanation. The other issue is more profound. Don't you think God who invented humor would like to participate in humor with his own actions and words. Everything with him in our review mirror is always so serious that we need a bit of salt to understand he ways of communication are not always obstinate and serious, don't your think? MJ: nice post. Interesting that the Lord himself many times used nature (seeds, lillies and trees) to explain himself, giving testimony once again that nature itself is a testimony to the glory of God. As with any relationship, but more importantly with the Lord, I think if we do what we know, we will get more to do in the form of words and his action. Leaving an impression on the Lord from the standpoint of being a doer, I think is pivotal.

Truth is always self evident, because it produces life and fruit. Wasn't this also the testimony of Jesus, "you shall know them by there fruits. Theology isnt truth is it? Theology is literally the study of God to bring us closer to the truth. Theology should be fun. "Growing in the knowlede of Him" Interesting that Pilate ( I think) asked Jesus "What is truth" Personally I think it was a good question. God has embodied "Truth" in a person whose character we can possess if we are willing to suffer with him. What more could we ask for?

I think its an interesting topic. Of course it says he is slow to speak, but that doesnt mean when he does he doesnt have a lot to say. Could it be that if he would speak to us more we would misunderstand it? Personally, I dont think the Lord wants to communicate with us in such a way that everything he says is" Thus saith the Lord" which is kinda of like every word he speaks has to have a be in permanant marker. Perhaps communion is the ticket also, a method of communication of our spirit with his. With respect to speaking to us, I think he wants to speak to us. We have this way of manipulating things not only in his written word but also in what he says. The key therefore I think is a clean heart. Sometimes if we think he has said something to us, perhaps it is better to let him explain his words down the road. This isnt any different than what we would do with anyone elses words, what some people say can easily be misunderstood. any thoughts?

Oakster: What ? only 5 choices. Millions of people millions of different views, but theres only one oakster who drives a WOW mobile.

Hey wait a minute.................. I found the Book of the Prophet Iddo. Thats right its in the Bible tooo. The book of the Prophet Iddo. It's the things yah didnt do, in the book of the prophet Iddo I did I did I did I didn't didn't do, they are all written down in the book of the prophet Iddo. Just wait till I find the Book of the Prophet Jashur.

oak: its just that its the thing that bothers me the most.

Two things: 1)Personally I some times wonder if it isnt helpful to look at the church as "one body" and the denominations as "different administrations". Notice they are not "differing" administations by different ones. Personally I dont see the denominations fighting doctrinally a lot between each other anymore I think that is good. 2) Since I had limited involvement with TWI, some of the people in this room are really in tune with God. But after further review, I think TWI was a very very very dangerous cult. I am glad my involvement was limited. The thing that reinforces my opinion is the people who were in it who are now atheists and agnostics. God must have never stirred them, I dont get it. The huge error in my opinion, is "the living word and living epistles" which we all must take part of and the "written word" which must attest to all of our lives.

Invisible Dan: Your comment: But in retrospect, now we can well imagine what went through the minds of some visitors who observed us speaking in tongues, even within the context of its orderly prescription. I bet they felt we were "pretty whacko" too (lol). But many movements share the practice of chantings and glossalalia. It's certainly more common than I knew years ago, in movements both ancient and modern. agreed, interesting to me Dan is that speaking in tongues has a prescription for speaking it in Corinthians, personally, I never really figured out how it fits, especially since i spent a lot of time in the Pentacostal church where everyone speaks it all the time. So i am cornfused on that one also. Your comment: I suppose truth might be regarded as either a telescope or a microscope - but one may experience better success toward tracing "centrist truths" when simply approaching various scriptures and writings of varying beliefs with one's own eyes and heart. You always got something good to say Danno, yes and amen its got to be individual. With respect to Budda, I dont know anything about it. With respect to the history of that stuff I do find your knowledge to be quite phenomenal. I think you should own a library Dan unbelievable. I am gonna post another thread below this one and look forward to your comments on the matter. I would really like your comment on the administration concept DAn.

invisible dan: I dunno about the new age thing tho DAn. My observations have been its a pretty dark telescope they look thru and one that doesnt even have a lense. Of course i am ignorant about it mostly, my only experience was watching some "new agers" chanting i dont know what off a dock on a lake. Pretty wacko stuff. I think we all look for a day when there is a centrist beleif in truth. With so many fluctations in demoninations what is the problem? I dont think it is with God or the Gospel but rather with our sin nature and our flesh, that we have not walked "in paths of righteousness" The best telecope for truth I think is to look in the mirror everyday and double check our own motives and ask God to show us the "error that is from within."

dmiller: Your comment: I agree. Completely, with the exception of the fact that as a human -- his thinking capacity had to be like ours. Adam had no sin nature either, yet he gave in to temptation, and did sin. Jesus was capable of sinning, yet He chose not to. Again, I very much agree with you. Especially, "his thinking capacity had to be like ours."

sirgues: Hate is also a relationship. So is rape. So is theft. Which is why clarity (further illumination) is useful. "It all comes down to this" can be said about things, it seems, but only ever so lightly. Ok i understand the word love is misused and interdependent on the definition of the person using it. Your comment: I actually asked, can a person NOT be an official Christian and manifest Christ via love? No I dont think they can. God's love is unconditional and holy. Man is unperfected. Interestingly the I John I beleive says we are "perfected in love" or with love i dont remember. With respect to your other things u said: I dont know if I can characterize the love of God based on viewing different indiviuals, for how can I be sure of the depth of there experience? I know of no love of God meter. I mean people can be depressed over something and have the love of God lift them up, but that doesnt make the pain of whats bothering them go away. Why? Because man is unperfect in God's love today that is. Conceptually as to what is love isnt it a growing experience? When I was young I thought to do what everyone told me was loving everyone. Now, I realize it takes more love to say no and tell people they are wrong about some things. Agreed? Peace also

sirgues: your comment: Besides, "just simply God and Christs relationship to you on a daily basis" is not even taught in the Bible as the basic thingy we are to do. So your saying the Bible isnt a book about God's and Christs relationship to man and ( ok i missed the part about our relationship to each other.) You lost me here. Isnt that the embodiment of the two commandments that you said, Love the Lord thy God and thy neighbor as thyself? What are you saying that love isnt a relationship with God? Thats exactly what that commandment is, if love isnt a relationship what is it? Your comment: Its not. And its why I don't use the word "right." I look at an animal's poop to tell what its been eating and how healthy it is ok i see where your going with this, your examining others to determine what? That some peoples Christianity smells like dog poop? I agree your comment: Depends on who is saying it, and what they mean. If to me, my relationship with God is expressed by torturing heretics, it will be different than one whose relationship with God is expressed by (fill in the blank). I agree and we dont always know a book by its cover. Yet there fruits are pretty obvious on the face of the cover if we check out there dog poop. Yep sounds good to me. Are they only interested in expanding there ministry via financial gain? Are they teaching uncleanliness to Christians like Baalim did? etc etc works for me. Your comment: ok. Tell me what this looks like. And how does it resemble Jesus the Christ? And, how would you recognize it if the person was not Christian and/or did not speak english? Can a person not be an "official" Christian and also engage in the two commandments, even to the point of manifesting Christ? ok language barrier is a problem. Tell you what what looks like? Yes I think a person can be an offical Christian and engage in the two commandments and would manifest Christs love. I am simply saying I think its noticeable.

sirgues: Your comment: So, which Christianity are we talking about? Why does Christianity for you have to be about what it is about for other people? You look at them and say which one is right. Is'nt true Christianity just simply God and Christs relationship to you on a daily basis? Why does it have to be something other than that? I find something easy to spot about those that love the Lord, they are always engaged with him.

Long Gone: I know the Lord said the 3 days and 3 nights thing. The cross however is the modern day emblem "or sign" of the 3 days and 3 nights for with out the cross and death there he never would have been there 3 days and 3 nights. Agreed?