sky4it

rascal: speaking of refunds, I only took the class once, but I think I am entitled to a refund with interest. What was it 80 bucks at 10 percent interest over 24 years that should be worth at least 300 bucks shouldnt it?

ex70's: I think you hit the nail on the head. If communication with God doesn't bring me closer to his heart, its all pretty senseless. It really beats the "Thus saith the Lord thing" or "The Lord told me this" stuff also doesn't it? Personally, I find it aggravating when people quote what God said to them in order to exert there authority.

Abby: Perhaps you had an advantage there in that I knew almost nothing of Christianity outside of TWI and what I did know if it made little sense to me. I can't say my Lutheran Catechism was of any benefit. Some people I knew in the Assemblies however were, who warned me about TWI. But even way back then, there were publications calling TWI a cult, which I think ought to have raised everyones eyebrow. I agree with you Abby, that our backgrounds may have made us all a little different in respect to how we viewed TWI. I am not sure, however, that we dont all have a barometer inside us that senses when something isn't quite right. My experience with the Independent Assemblies tho, was much the same, in that that particular group also thought they were the one stop, do it all, know better than everyone else theology. Interestingly to you, was that we had 2 Jewish gals who were converts there, one of whom in midstream went back to New York, re-converted to Judiasm and we never heard from her again.

Abby: And of course for me, it was the one topic (but not only there were others) that told me that something was wrong in TWI from the get go. Others who were there a lenghty time, have assured me that this same attitude did not prevail in their particular fellowship. But even the absence of discussion about (sin in the flesh) and no discussion of the cross was quite a signal. To what degree individuals in TWI suffered in this area, I know not. Neither is it an issue that most would discuss openly. Sufficient to say that there are some, if not many, that crossed the line and that in itself was a pollution of the Word of God. I am not going to digress from the point either Abby, because doing so would indicate to them that a better way from God himself in their own vernacular was "not available." Clearly it was.

simon: your comment: Skyfer,I'm more than happy to see a small market,low payroll team like the Twinkies in the playoffs...I just wish they wouldn't beat up on the Chisox so much... but you gotta admit, the rhubarb between the mighty whities and the twinkes is where the fun is at. Every year I look at the White Sox and say, "Yep they are more talented than my Twins, (except on defense). I think the Twins have stuck together a amazing string of developing solid young players. That can't go on forever. Except now they have three young guys, (Mauer & there new 1 baseman and an outfielder that look better than Hunter, Koskie and Jones) The White Sox to me remain baseball's biggest mystery. They kinda remind me of the Vikings. Individually talented, collectively not very good. My theory on the Vikings is that the players play 8-10 games a year, get there stats up to justify next years contract or a new contract, and then they go into a holding pattern and play awful as tho they are trying to protect themsleves from injuries. Perhaps the whities are doing the same thing. I saw where Ordenez turned down a big contract only to get injured. There is no loyalty amongst the White Sox. Most of the Twins players actually want to play in Minnesota. They dont want to leave.

Abby: I guess we would just have to agree to disagree on that one. Without consequence, without indicating the seriousness of the matter, I simply see it as an issue that can creep into and infect others as well. How it is people come to real genuine repentance for such things is easier attained when the crossbar is high. You cannot create an environment which facilitates such actions and expect people to succeed. But I think thats just a difference you and I have Abby, on what constitutes mercy. With respect to Jesus views, Israel had the law. They knew it was serious. We have grace, we have certain men who have turned this into this type of lasciviousness. One could argue that Jesus view was even more severe than the law, for the law permitted divorce for many matters, Jesus permitted it only for the cause of fornication. Of course this brings in a entirely different topic matter, for at times the law seems more permissive than Christ was. I think rightfully so, for the new covenant is a living body given for us, which the law could never provide. The other thing it this Abby. If fornicators and adulters do not inherit the Kingdom of God and we his people are his temple what wrong with showing these people their inheritance which is in a different house than God's? They wont be in his house anyway if they continune in this, so why make them think that they can? In my view that is simply deluding people.

mstar: I am from Minnesota so I am very familiar with the Twins. Menciewitz, yea great glove very little bat. The Twins couldnt score runs the last 2 years in the playoffs or enough in the season, so they had to dump him. I am a little zipped that we let David Ortiz go, he's been terrific for the Sox. I do agree with you, as long as the Yankees get beat, thats good for baseball. So if my Twinkies go down, I will be pulling for the Sox and A's. later man.

def: see my comment to you on the altar thread. (and to abby)

Abby and Def: Abby your comment: I must ask though, why you have such a thing about adulterers. Don't get me wrong, I understand it is sin. So are many things and in a sense gossip could be an equal sin to adultery becuase it doesn't just hurt the sinner, but the ones being gossiped about as well. It is my view ( and I believe OT and NT one as well), that adultery and covetousness are core issues when in existence make it impossible to grow in the knowledge of God and understand true holiness. One can reasonably argue, that alcholism and drug addict are parasites of the same. They can however exist exclusive of the other two. Certainly these folks need mercy as well. People however, understand the gravity of the matter, when distinctions are brought to there attention. By disallowing participation with the people of God, my arguement is this is more merciful and would draw there full attention to the matter. It is also my belief that other issues are more easily resolved by experience and therefore I think that is why N.T. doctrine wasnt forceful about the other matters. your comment: Should we not have mercy on the adulterer as well as the alcoholic or drug addict? Is there not a sckness there as well? Certainly it is a sickness Abby. It is also a sickness that I think can only be purged with gravity. Love must be tough, no? def: your comment: What's with adultery stuff? You get burned or something? Just in the sense I have seen people preach while commiting adultery and I think that is the ultimate hypocracy. In answer to your other comment on the other thread, I believe it to be more merciful to show them the door than the otherway around and thus show them the gravity of the situation. Adultery and fornication are not easily resolved issues def, the consequences of which with guilt can last a life time. your comment: But diddn't God tell David to build him a temple? I think your right, forbiding buildings would be a bridge too far. The reference was to "altars" which are the place of sacrafice, enough said that it illustrated one should be careful on how the altar is handled.

Abby and Dmiller: "An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt..........." (v25) "And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone, for if thou lift up thy tool upon it , thou hast polluted it." (v26) Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon." Exodus 20: 24-26 These words were spoken directly after the 10 commandments. One might even argue they were part of the 10 commandments. Wether in the church or the synagogues what do we find? Altars of hewn stone and steps. Proof positive that the altar the Lord searches for is the "one of the earth" or the humans heart. And what is the problem with these man made altars? They make the organzation or the altar more important than the individual. The growth of the "organization" becomes to them the work of God itself. They gossip like snakes about the alcholic and the drug addict and placate the adulters. Why? To pay for the altar of course. If "sin" is a loathsome disease, shouldnt those that are afflicted by it recieve mercy? Certainly carrying the burden of alcholics and drug addicts is too much for anyman. But they ought to at least not tore them apart with there mouths and left the door open thru mercy. These folks can't handle hate from gossip, it destroys the hope they have left. And why do they talk about them? It makes them feel more righteous themselves. Proving once again that they are jealous of the alcholics and drug addicts deeds; for they themselves wish they could do such things with impunity. They don't view sin as a sickness, but rather as a reward if they could do it themselves, and thus fall into the same temptation. Their ministers write books with long doctrines of excesses and confuse and baffle the young thru their multitude of information. Cheifly the books are written, to honor and extol themselves, as though that in itself is acceptable to God. If a persons life is worthy of bieng written about shouldn't they let another say it? Shouldn't deeds be more relevant than excess's of words? Why then do they honor themselves with books and call this the "end of all knowledge?" Ok, so we are not under the law but grace. Thats fine, but it certainly speaks volumes to "taking heed how you build upon your own foundation." If you gotta have a building to meet in at least make sure you got the right one in your heart also. And I suppose that makes me radical Abby and D, but it don't matter today much anyhow. I think most folks in the churches are copping ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ's.

mstar: Yea he is unbeaten. His fastball is about 93-94. The thing is his changeup is about 75-78, a 15 to 19 MPH difference. 8-10 MPH is considered exceptional. Thats what makes him so tough.

Thanks Abby, Thats a lot of information. Too much for me to digest.

dmiller: I just don't like what I feel like the next day when I drink a little. So I dont do it a lot. I saw Jerry Falwell on TV the other day. He said he doesnt have a rule in his church that people can't watch movies. He said that "He , however doesnt watch them because there was nothing much good to see." I think thats very manipulative. To tell people its not wrong, but by "example" its not right. Thats what I hate about religion. They take away ordinary living, but refuse to kick the adulters out. Don't you think thats a little hypocritical Dee?

Go Twins, Johann Santana is almost unhittable.

One time and one time only... I disagreed with some stuff so I guess I wasnt spiritual. Oak: Now I feel like an "outsider"

Danny: I would certainly like to see your historical perspective on Job. Once again, don't overheat your library activities on my account, its not that important. Abby: Thanks, you said a lot. The name appears in Genesis 46:13 as a descendant of Issachar. Most scholars agree this was not the same person. Youngs concordance lists him as a descendant of Shem, although I can find no justification for this. I do however have a wierd theory about Job, too wierd to state cause I dont want you to think I am wierd. And as I said, its just a theory. If your in the synagogue, I was wondering if you could have a Rabbi that is good in Hebrew give me the literal translation of Job 42:17 (the last verse) I am most interested in knowing if the term death appears in the literal Hebrew. (While I am good at Greek, I am awful in Hebrew. I have these Hebrew lexicons, but to me its like reading a language that gets translated in reverse and I have no training in it.) I have found considerable consolation in the words of Elihu (the fourth person not being one of Job's "friends".) The term "Eli" meaning God I believe and therefore making him a type of Christ. In "babes and suckling" speech, Eli Who? , that being that Christ had not been revealed. God Bless :)-->

Abby: Thanks. I am very interested in the book of Job and his roots. Two years ago, I contacted a Rabbi, who reads in Hebrew. They were to busy to answer my questions. The topic or parellel that has me very puzzled, is who this guy actually was. Typologically speaking, it was almost like God losing his family when the 3rd part of the angels left him. That is why my ears are always pinned back on the subject. When it comes to genologies I am also interested. My father was a full blood Norweigion who has a family tree extending back to the 17 th century. I am always fascinated by the migration of the Jews, because certain tribes we dont know where they ended up. Anyways ive enjoyed our discussions Abby.

Abigail: I understand that you are Jewish. I have two questions for you. 1) Are Jewish people actually able to trace there ancestory to the tribe of Judah? Is there in existence family trees that go back that far? If not, how would the Messiah ever be traced to that tree? 2) I was curious what authenticity Jewish scholors attach to the book of Job. Do they think Job was a ancestor to Abraham or otherwise?

OK so this will be off the topic a little but........ I can loathe adultry and covetousness, which is the nut shell of the gospel anyway....... but I don't see any good reason not to have a 1/2 pint of whiskey every three weeks and some good music also. (Falwell beware) YYYYYYYYYYYYeeeeeeeeehawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.. "On the way down, can you save me from myself.................................."

Abby: your comment: I don't know much about organized religion beyond TWI - it was the first and only time I have been a member of one. However, it may very well be that what you say is correct, at least to some degree or another. However, I suspect that most mainstream organized churches don't suck the life out of you to the same degree as TWI and some other less mainstream groups do. Your right Abby they don't. They just suck the life out of your with gossip, extremist ones with excesses of meetings, and they really don't kick the asses out of the church of the people that are committing adultry. Moreover, if coveteousness is the sneaky sin, they never discuss it, the more you make, the better it is for the offering plate. The adulterers, same thing, we don't wanna lose our income stream. Take it from me Abby, they might be more well rounded and you might feel free to come and go, but other patterns exist there that perpetuate the organization over the individual. Certainly there are people in these organizations that are really wonderful Christians, but yah know what, I can say there was some really wonderful folks in TWI also. And if you tell them that you don't like something you know what there response is? Same dang thing as what TWI people said. You must be bitter, or you dont understand the word, or whats wrong with your life that your wife is sick. Trust me Abby, I have seen it there also and it might be more difficult to spot but one thing many of them didnt have that TWI'ers did was zeal. That's why I like coming here. If you and I and some others thought we were investing in God, dang nabbit Abby, I know he will reward us.

Mister P: But the fact remains that God is good enough to signal sickness thru noticealbe symptoms and If he told one person what the stock market was going to do he would have to tell them all in order to be fair (because he is righteous) and to tell you when to witness and when not is like wanting to know from God what shoes do I wear today. Moreover if he does tell us the future like he did Joseph, it still requires profound faith, for the major way that God has limited himself is in righteousness. I know I can impact the future by faith and prayer. Personally, when he speaks, I like the personal side of it more, it makes him more personal. And maybe it doesnt have to be "devine revelation" in the sense that that is just a little to unnerving for any of us.

Abby: I understand the hurt and suffering that went on there. As I said when I came to greasespot, I was never a member of TWI. That didnt mean it didnt influence me tho. I took 15 credits of Biblical Greek just to get a handle on Weirwelles and orthodox wacky theories, and after a year came to the conclusion that this was futile also. I did however have a three year stop over with an Independent Assemblies of God place, where the doctines were different but the end result was just as disasterous and destructive. I guess Abby, with God there is consolation in our failure in "religious organizations." If I didnt believe that, I wouldnt be here. Interesting that the Lord said we would fail. "Make ye freinds with the mammon of unrighteousness that when you fail." Why did he think we would fail? I think the Lord was wise enough to understand that religion doesnt perpetuate itself. Someone always grabs and organizes "life" in a way it wasnt meant to be. But we must find life and truth from our failures, wether they are religious ones or not. If we don't everything we do in life is a disaster. And doesnt God teach us much the same? In Hebrews, "For God is not unrighteous to forget your labor of Love" We want God to perform in certain ways when we have worked for him, but he denies that. We must ask why? Personally I think its because what we want isnt enough, he wants to give us more than a pony ride in the "I am the best church around thing." And who among us would have been satisfied if the VP organization or some other one had become the next Jerry Falwell. I think we would have loathed that as well.

GEO AAR: I realize I was a bit chippy with yah Geo. Its just I don't get it. My questions are more how does one come to the conclusions of agnostism. ( I really dont know much about it, because of you and Oak I studied it somewhat on the internet) I guess considering the BS of TWI, I can see where someone might feel that all religions are threatening and posture that way to protect themself. A disconnect is reasonable. I have to tell you this story. It's true every word of it. It doesnt relate to agnostism but to someone I knew who left the Christian faith. I was attending this church for about 3 years. One guy there was from out of state. He prophesied and spoke in tongues and preached the word. He claimed this remarkable miracle story. He said that God had apparently caused a plant to grow like 12 inches or something in a matter of seconds in order to prove himself to him. He always claimed this had caused him to have faith. Later the church fell apart. After about 8 years he stopped by to see me. He was at a motel with a beautiful young woman and his hair was down to his waist. The woman confided in me that he had another problem. I was shocked. I asked him why he had left Christianity. His response? " I gave it more effort than other people, if that wasnt enough for God, I dont want it. Your right about one thing Geo, I do think the problem that creates a barrier between man and God is not related to God ( and i know you think thats my problem). Therefore I do have a tendecy to look at someone like you and say, man what went wrong?

Geo: Today I think I may walk to the store. Your like the guy who chips in and says, well, that depends on your definition of what is walking. I can't digress about it either Geo, because to me its just plain stupid. PS: I like to give you crap Geo, cause part of me believes you don't believe the athiest line anyway. your comments: You'll pardon me if I find it just a tad disingenuous when the (to me, anyway) MOST obvious answer to your question is never even considered by the true believer. Are you looking for answers or more soothing, religious, spin-doctoring to shore up some weak points in your theology? And the most obvious answer is ?????????????? Your view that God doesnt exist? Splendid, now I can rest with assurance that you just said the same thing beleivers say about God, only in reverse. And what point is there to tell people these things? Are you saving us from a fairy tale existence in your mind? What a dreary microscope it must be to look into and think that at death you are gone for ever? But what if the resurection of the just and unjust comes, will you then say ooops I was wrong? Lastly, I don't think I am religious and I dont think I am a spindoctor- but when you athiests claim that us Christians are intellectually challenged and non-objective; consider your own shortsidedness, when you lable Christian speech as "spindoctoring." Your right about one thing tho, I will take some soothing answers to shore up "my weak points" in theology.

Abigail: You learned a lot. The good part is you can pat yourself on the back not them. Oddly, Abby, my learning was much the same, all tho not from TWI because it was very shortterm for me. Flesh is flesh wether it was TWI or the Assemblies of God, there was flesh in both. But to come to somewhat the same conclusions from vastly different organizations makes experience more valuable from the standpoint we have all learned how terrible religion can be. Thank you for your comments, they encourage me. just thinking: your comment: To avoid giving TWI too much credit, I think it's useful to distinguish between the benefits one gained from people IN TWI versus the organization itself. Ditto, but I think you know me well enough that I wasnt signaling benefit in deference to anything TWI provided that was positive, at least not in the long term.