sky4it

Never did like the group really. Some guy by the name of Allan Canter was preaching TWI stuff in 1976 that is how I ran into them. He had left TWI, and was out preaching the stuff on his own, I was in high school. He divorced his wife and it was all wrong. I moved to Minneapolis in late 76 went to college. The old pecker himself (Victor Paul Weirwille) showed up in Minneapolis at a big convention, I think he had a patch over his eye, had cancer. I met a Pastor at the college i attended his name was Pastor Lodigs he taught biblical Greek. Lodigs fought TWI with me, they were a cult. It was a confusing time buy I never joined. They had a real pretty young gal who married some TWI guy who was going Word over the World. I knew her before she met TWI and after. Cant believe she married him and went. Really nice girls a few years older then me, dont ever know what happened to her. He was in charge of campus ministry at the University of minnesota.

nice piece Rocky

My little TWI Story: Here is what happened: I took PFAL from splinter group of people who were in TWI and started there own fellowship. I had deep misgivings about TWI. I went to Golden Valley Lutheran College in Minnesota, they are no longer in existence. During my education there, one beautiful woman who was a store clerk married a guy from TWI Campus Ministry at the University of Minnesota. I didnt even know she knew him until she was gone. Another beautiful girl (she was georgeous) was heavily recruited by TWI. During that time I went to one Twig meeting and saw VPW at a Minneapolis way convention. and knew the Univeristy of Minnesota Campus way guys, at the U of M. There was a Pastor who taught Greek at Golden Valley Lutheran College, I took 15 credits of Biblical Greek. HIs name was Pastor Lodigs. So we fought TWI, me and Pastor Loddigs with doctrinal stuff. It wasnt tough, there many holes in TWI sermons. That is my little TWI story Paul D

interesting...... hey bramble where are you

Hi Rocky its been a while almost 10 years i think if you see bramble say hi to her from me, her account doesnt take messages.

Thank you really very much it would be nice to talk to Garth 2000 again also Really appreciated

hi I havent been around for 7 or 8 years and I know this is not the spot for it but I was looking for Bramble wondering if she ever stops buy I miss her. me

Thank you for the welcoming response Roy. Your always polite, that is a real nice attribute. Keep up the good work, I am sure someday God will kindly reward you.

Pardon my turkey Kimberly, I read you on that one. That was a nice swan dive. Mosquitoes are not here yet. Have you ever turned off the lights with one mosquito in your room who will not quit? It sounds like a little tiny wennie 747 going off in your ear. And then repeat. After you hit yourself 10 times then you can go to sleep. I think that is probably why I don't mind getting hit once in a while. Nobody beat me up , as much as I have myself. because of those squitoes. Again Kimberly very nice swan dive. That is kind of how those squitoes come in, like swan divers. Sometimes when your on a motorcycle in Minnesota, the Mosquito when your mouth is open, goes right in your mouth then down your stomach. Its weird feeling swallowing a mosquito. so no, I do not think mosquitoes should be protected by Peta. Trust me on this, they are not on the endangered species list. In Minnesota the mosquito is the state bird. I go up to big turtle lake sometimes in the summer. The mosquitoes are so bad on the lake at night, it is really hard to go fishing. And the loons in the spring have there little baby loons on the lake. But they cant fly. So you can get real close to them. But the mamma loon gets mad if you get to close. When the sun goes down, the loons start to sing, and you can hear them for a mile. Here is a quiz for you Kimberly. What animal walking on the ground that doesn't have wings does the mosquito most resemble. there is two answers maybe three. if you get one right I will give you a C+, if you get two I will give you an A.

You might find it interesting, that I ran into a preacher years ago who was very much like Dr. Weirdo. This particular guy, has never been involved in TWI at all. They are similar is this one respect: Neither VPW or this guy ever met a bible verse that was complete unless they inserted themselves into the bible verse. But that is where there similarities (as far as biblical interpetation end) VPW method was to infer nobody could “rightly divide” or understand the bible without his guiding hand and that of his “biblical research team.” This other guys methods are far different. One time he was giving a teaching on Hebrews 2:14. (Look it up if you want) Anyway he focused on two phrases in there, “partakers” and Jesus who “took part”. By focusing on these two phases he basically massacred the entire bible verse. Basically he just tells great big long stories about himself, to let you know what a take partaker and “took parter” in the gospel he is. (Just like Richard Dawkins he is a great story teller.) Then when he is finished he polishes you off, by letting you know that God doesnt like people who want to be the “big cheese.” Since I was sitting in small group of people who were listening to this screwball, I couldnt for the life of me understand who he was referring to as the “big cheese.” Then it donned on me that if you questioned his oratory in any way, that is what being the big cheese was. After I was fortunate enough to get away from this dude, I started thinking how comical it was. This guy actually has like these weird facial contortions when he is preaching, it was like he was having a seizure when he was delivering his message. After he got warmed up his head would start to gyrate; somewhat like a bobble head doll. It kind of reminded me of an old Elvis clip, they way Elvis used to shake his hips. Then if you asked him a question he would stop and appear in deep meditative thought or a trance like state. And it was weird because basically his whole message was about a bunch of stories. It’s actually really hard to describe unless you have heard one of his messages. You kind of feel like the message was delivered to thousands of people even tho there was only about 10 people listening. Its because he put so much drama and facial contortions into the message, that, that alone was the messages chief prevailing point. Whatever the case, after listening to an hours worth of his personal stories, I will never have the same view of Hebrews 2:14 again, not ever. The content of the bible verse is too establish as fact, that Jesus Christ took on a body of mortal flesh that was in all respect like us, with the only exception he had no sin and was blameless. When this guy was finished that fact was basically massacred because his entire tone of the message was to establish the HE, this guy, was the only clown in town who knew what that was all about. That is just the opposite of the bible verse. The bible verse is there specifically so that we can relate our own human weaknesses, with that of our saviour Jesus Christ. The bible verse it there to let us know that we can relate in our humanity, easily with Jesus Christ. You know there are deceivers and then there are deceivers. If somebody has got the goods they don’t have to convince you of there personal wherewithal. If you have the goods the bible says your suppose to live it as an example. Nothing more, nothing less. Personally, I am glad it is just that simple, so that if I were to let a charlaton run me around like this clown, well the reason is within my own insecurity. The only reason people like this ever have a chance of succeeding is that people are insecure in there own beast. Then screwballs like this guy seize on that insecurity to bolster themselves as your self appointed know it all. Never by example alone, but by grandiose messages that have no content of value.

Thanks for the compliment waysider, appreciated, and too you also erkjohn.

It has been pretty well documented by some people in here, that VPW cobbled together teachings from other writers,preachers and so forth. VPW simply repackaged what these people said, into his own workable format. The important thing was, they provided material which was acceptable to many religious organizations, many things which were pretty acceptable stuff. But when VPW added his private touch to these things, he did it to massacre certain bible versus, to cleverly manipulate and control. Its also interesting that Wierwille took scholor EW Bullingers work along. Some of Bullingers work was complex, interesting but very difficult to assimulate. Its also fascinating that Wierwille backloaded the bible, by casting doubt on some bible verses as to wether they were in the originals. (Some people might find it interesting that the same material is a feature from a Professor (cant remember his name) who also has highlighted the same material in a book recently to cast doubt on the bible also.) Former TWI people who have kept there faith, might find that intriguing because the book caused quite a stir amongst some believers, because people thought it was new information when it has been out there for a long time. But Dr Wierdo added some weird stuff like the 4 crucified with Christ, (as if it mattered) and then the he didnt believe in the Trinity stuff. Its my opinion, it was all deliberate, because VPW didnt want people who wouldnt think and do what he wanted around him. The four crucified with Christ stuff, provided a nice litmus test as too who would believe the Quack Doctor. I think its also fascinating, that Dr Wierdo was clever enough not to mention his weird sexual appetitites except to his closer ups, or perhaps only when he was discovered. In that way the rank and file, and the ones on lower rung, would never quite have enough reason, to know what he was all about. (Even to this day, who knew what about certain things is pretty much an individual question.) But Dr. Wierdo was clever enough, to know he couldnt make his cult run without: 1) some well established material which people couldnt question and 2) a FEW things that were really off the wall nuts, just enough to DISTINGUISH himself from every other religious organizion. Pure Savagery.

Geisha: Don’t go leaving now, people need you here I read your posts Geisha and I know you mean well. You have so much to offer Geisha and you know so much. Like when you told Garth that he was acting like a Christian, that was priceless, only you Geisha could have said it just like that. Besides that Geisha I am a big time Geisha fan, and I am not a fan of too many people. WG has been really hurt by the Calvinator, and she despises that they make her feel like she has to be a Calvinator or she is all wrong. She’s is right to be upset. WG isnt upset at you she upset at the Calvinator, because the Calvinator all about words and deceiving people. So you stay around now Geisha people need you here. If anyone should be leaving it should be me, because I said enough already. WG is a very gifted person too. She’s really smart and gifted at somethings. Puts yourself in WG shoes, imagine if after TWI you had the Calvinator appartus bouncing you, you would be upset too. Plus WG is very careful with people to say the right thing, so you need to stay and we need all to help WG because she is a gifted speaker and knows what she is talking about.

One of the most beautiful hymns ever wrote and sung, by Rebecca StJames, pretty much sums up what I believe.

I tried telling you this on at least one other occassion Garth, but I think you werent reading what I wrote and you were more content to read what I wrote to poke holes in it. I will try it one more time, to see if you can see it more clearly: Uhh Stop sin no, cant be done because man has a free will to do whatever he wants, otherwise that would be slavery and God is about freedom. BTW, Garth, the Calvinists try to place Gods will (predestination) sanctimoniously in place of their will, in order to circumvent their own will and there sinful ways. But the Bible teaches man is responsible for accepting salvation, so as not to sin again. It is a one lifetime, free gift, so that sin ought to have been stopped right there. Which brings us to number 2) but forgive sin so that people will Stop sinning, YES of course, it must make sense by now. Then, somewhere along the line you missed the reasoning. You know you athiests are always so big on INGNORANCE, but you ignore EVERYTHING that doesnt reason itself out to your own self satisfaction. Who ever said that it was God’s will to make man in his own image? It couldn’t have been, otherwise he would not have been grieved after he did it. (See Genesis 6:6, And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and grieved him at his heart.) So then, you say to yourself, shouldn’t God have told MEN, not to “go for it?” He did, he did tell them not to do it. (In fact he told them if they did it they would end up dying because of it) When? In Psalm 82:6,7 that is when. (You know, that bible verse that when Jesus quoted just about got him murdered?) Are we waking up yet Garth? Do we remember now? I tell you what Garth, for old time sake, I will quote it again for you, here it is, “I have said you are Gods and all of you are children of the most High, but you shall DIE like MEN and fall like one of the princes.” You have to understand Garth that that bible verse was never spoken from Genesis until the book of Psalms. It was quoted as a direct reference as something that was spoken a long time before all of that. Why? Because the ones who wanted to be men were his children (That is precisely what the bible verse says, that they were “children of the most high”, for whatever reason they were not content any longer being children and wanted to be men, that is why, and they wanted to become in the image of God, a man, so that they could swipe, steal and take the Kingdom by force from God. That is the story that Jesus tells.) Ok then, so now lets go grab the story that Jesus tells to prove all of that, that the record is in the Bible. (Mark 13:34-36) “As a man taking a far journey” GO read it yourself..... and Mathew 21:33-38, “went into a far country”, “SO WHEN THE HUSBANDMEN SAW THE SON, THEY SAID AMONGST THEMSELVES, THIS IS THE HEIR, COME LET US KILL HIM AND LET US SEIZE UPON HIS INHERITANCE, AND THEY CAUGHT HIM AND CAST HIM OUT OF THE VINEYARD AND SLEW HIM........” Be sure to read the rest of it too Garth, it all fits perfectly together. Ahh lets see Garth, you have a book called the bible, which basically is all about justice and righteousness, and because you think it is the opposite of that your correct? That’s inexcusable. Ahh, and don’t forget Garth, the DON’T FALL ASLEEP ON THE JOB PROVISIONS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. Its all in there for the understanding. So if you put your best foot forward Garth, you will get it now. Problem is, you start telling people and quoting them the record, and they aint going to like you for it, because they want to be ignorant of the record, it’s the only way that they justify and continue there behavior. You start telling them what really happened and they will call you an idiot, a moron and everthing else. Gee, telling people the truth today, its just great fun, isnt it Garth? You know what your problem is Garth? Your problem is that VPW so polluted your reading of the Bible, that you think you know everything that could possilby jump out of the Bible at you. You think you have all of that stuff down because VPW deceived you into believing exactly that, when he pretty much said, if you listen to VPW, you don’t need to listen to anyone else baby. And the problem with that Garth, is that, it was all a whole lot simpler than VPW ever said. VPW had to, like John Calvin, be lengthy to pollute the simplicity of the message. He did that deliberately to deceive people. Another lengthy story teller, who is VPW and John Calvin like, is atheist Daniel Dennett, which I went into in some detail a few paragraphs from now. Here is one more king size King Solomon like gold nugget for thought. I Peter 2:4, “To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed INDEED OF MEN, but chosen of God and precious.” It’s well known that Christ was the living stone, the corner stone. Notice it says disallowed indeed of MEN. It doesn’t say disallowed of women. Men disallow it, because when they became a man, and.... THEY COULD NOT KEEP THE COVENENT OF WHAT IT MEANT TO BECOME A MAN. That would be all those covenents that God made with man from Noah down through the ages. Notice also the perfect word placement and format of the word INDEED. Men, disallowed the deeds (that is the placement of the word indeed) of the living stone ie(Christ) WHY? Because they cant be a man and get it right that is why. Thus, they have to disallow the deeds of a man who did it right and correct and who can be a man correctly. You know Garth, I can’t keep doing this stuff much longer. It feels like your hacking on me. If you keep an open mind and chew on the Words of God, you will understand why it is things are like the way they are. Also you have realize Garth, that aheists know all of this, mostly in back seats of where they are trying to park their dicks, that is why they cannot stand the gospel. Now I realize as a former TWI member, you are more eloquent about it, but true athiests are not eloquent at all about it. Furthermore, athiests don’t want to allow the truth of Gods word, into there collective memory, because its too painful for them to see themselves standing in Gods shoes, in his image, and not being able to do that without sinning. Thats why athiests at all times must collectively sack the concept of God. Lastly, as a man myself, it certainly give me no great pleasure to tell you this undeniable truth. The problem is Garth, some of God’s children wanted to try it, and God let them, with a warning that they would die. They went anyway, despite the advanced notice. Now God provided them with a plan of salvation, which plan of salvation, is not offered forever and ever. It has an end, and that day is approaching. I wouldn’t worry about it too much Garth, at least not yet, at least your not a female trying to act like a male whose name is Tommy Lee Jones. You have to understand Garth, that the Leprechauns and Satans master plan is too turn everyone into a man, then there would be no woman left for a good man to have. This is why the Leprechauns are so in love with other mens butts. I know that you will laugh about that and not think I am serious. But I am serious Garth, and I mean it. Leprechauns find no worth about sex if it isnt anything that isnt another mans butt. Lastly what does all this say about women? It says plenty. A Woman, who has NO urge to be a man, is the sweet nectar of this life. Pretty hard to imagine how intolerable this life would be without women who are here to show kindness and love. Now you said Garth, that stoning was “barbaric” and” loathsome” and you said it was not progressive and did not advance society. What you fail to realize Garth, is that a soceity where men are ruling is barbaric and loathsome, because men are more barbaric because they don’t want God and many of them do not want Gods plan. Simple stuff really. This will help you sort and sift it out better Garth. There actually was a plan, to subvert and overthrow Gods Kingdom. Here is part of that plan. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” They say “endowed by there creator also, to act as if this was GODS PLAN. Just because they can say “endowed by their Creator, doesnt mean God endowed upon them what they presume to have. It never was Gods plan. It was mans plan and God only went along to reveal his plan of salvation in the interim, subjecting the entire world populace to it and hoping that they would accept it. The bible says exactly that. “For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope.” Romans 8:20 The creature was subjected in the hope, that man would accept or adopt the concept of salvation. You kind of have to read all those verses in Romans 8, to get the point. More importantly it is because of HOPE that we are saved. The bible says precisely that in Romans 8:24, “For we are saved by HOPE,” The problem is that the hopeful message of salvation is purposely rejected when men go back and repeat there lives. This is why at the end of this writing, I describe mans situation with God, at best being very precarious. Man is not entitled to a life of sin, even if man thinks that it is liberty. They say it is SELF EVIDENT, that is a lie, there is absolutely nothing SELF EVIDENT ABOUT mans entitlements to whatever he wants be listed as a liberty. The whole entire plan, was to throw the Immortal God out of his kingdom, in the name of what man called a self evident truth. It was brutal deception, from the start to toss God out of his house, and take everything he ever created and had. If that isnt evil and diabolical nothing else ever will be. The goofy thing is Garth, is that it is pretty much over. Gods not going to let them back in his house because if he did, they would try to fly there flag there all over again. He might give some of them visitation rights, but that will be about it. There is actually a reason for the seperation clause in the consitution, is about trying to sack God. They wanted the bible and God, off on the side, where if they needed him in the future they could revisit it as a viable issue. Proof? The term self-evident, is the term they used to oust God, its also the term atheists love to lie about. They lie about it because God said the invisible things from creation are clearly understood (they are self evident) see Romans 1. Here is precisely how they sacked God with the term self evident: They had a dick, and they had a wish, the wish was what they called self evident, that is too say, they can do whatever they want with there dicks because that is “self evidently” pursuit of happiness. It doesnt get any clearer than that. You say well, how do you know athiests had anything to do with the Consititutution? You know because atheists like Daniel Dennett, who wants to relegate God a role of Santa Claus, is living in the US of A. Dennett actually calls God Santa Claus, and says your deluded if you believe in him. Dennett calls God Santa Claus and you deluded if you believe in him, because Daniel Dennett cannot string together a few pages of a book that are not by themselves a delusion. Here is one of Daniel Dennett quotes from his book Darwins Dangerous Idea: “The kindly God who lovingly fashioned each and every one of us and sprinkled the sky with shining stars for our delight -- that God is, like Santa Claus, a myth of childhood, not anything a sane, undeluded adult could literally believe in. That God must either be turned into a symbol for something less concrete or abandoned altogether.” This man at times cannot string together a few sentences that make any sense whatsoever. This is why Dennett chooses run on sentences over fact, it’s the only way Dennett can hide his own evil mind. Notice that Dennett, says in pun form that God fashioned each and everyone of us, only later to discard and discredit it a childhood myth. The only reason for making a pun fly and then to discard it later, is that Dennett doesn’t even believe his own lies anymore, that is how deluded Dennett has become. Dennett, actually fosters his own conclusions by reveling in his own lies. Dennett actually constructs huge run on sentences, then acts as if he is dumbstruck by the sheer magnitude of his own intellectual capacity. While reveling in his own intellect, your supposed to be dumbstruck too by the marvelous intellect of Daniel Dennett, its sheer unadultered insanity to even try to figure out, the brain waves of a man like Daniel Dennett.(This is precisely what Dennett said, that the concept of God, is “not anything a sane undeluded adult could literally believe in.” If it is not sane to believe in it, why on earth would Dennett want to discuss an insane thought? Because he knows that God is true, that is why. So he has to revel in his own disbelief to impress everyone) Would somebody get this guy a straight jacket? I have never actually seen someone who can do that and get by with it in public, that is how bizarre Daniel Dennett has become. And to see someone who can actually talk that way holding a Professorship at a University is something else. A Holloween and cape and gown act has arrived at the University of Tufts when Daniel Dennett came to town. He does it because he wants to cheat God, he does it for a show and so he can be a big shot. Daniel Dennett simply does it because he believes it will work, and he can win and he can call all the shots on what God should have the right to and what God should not have the right too. If this were not true, the United States of America wouldnt so much as allowed Daniel Dennett and his tribe of evolutionary lying tale bearers, to put a sole of his foot on the ground of the USA. The United States of America allowed it in the country because they wanted, what Daniel Dennett and his evolution animal patrol had started, they wanted it completed. Daniel Dannett’s chief method of operating against God, is to try to sound smarter than God. He does this by repeated long sentences, which are constructed in a way to confuse and deceive the reader. It’s deliberate of Dennett to do this. Dennett beleives if he can sound smarter than God, well then he has beat God. But that is not the truth, The truth is what the gospel says about the record itself. The bible says that it is so easy to understand, a child could understand. (Remember that bible verse, out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has perfected praise?) It is that way purposefully, wonderfully, so that no one can claim ignorance and miss it. They wanted to rob the bible and God of every last soul God ever had. And that’s good and honest reason for the cult called Athiesm anyway. Somebody gave em a cult nickname, they call em Darwiniacs. Ahem, I salute the person who did that. Oh and don’t forget, Jesus Christ destroyed the idea of death 2000 years ago, when he prophesied dying on a cross, “It is finished.” What was finished? Well sin was suppose to be finished of course, unless men wanted to KEEP ON SINNING. 2,000 years later, nothing has changed except that those that wanted it that way still have there boots off in other womens houses and are still a sinning, and they are going to be left behind, as in left behind to there own deception and there own country and booted out of Gods kingdom. I am even hanging on to that bible verse, spoken by Jesus just before his cruxifiction that lets me engage in just enough of my own barbarism., you know the right kind of barbarism the kind you do to protect yourself. You know the kind of protection a person such as myself needs when you cant get protection any way else. You know this one here: Luke 22:36 Here is one that might provide a little comic relief: You know Actress Sharon Stone, her last name is Stone after all, perhaps she will do a fly by and let us know, if carrying around a handle like Stone has been a major insult to her all of her life. I personally doubt it. When you look as sweet as she does, reality is that her name probably is only an insult to any guy who thought stoning was all that difficult. Hey wait a minute that sounds like me. I guess that might mean she would want to hire me to protect other men from her name. Ahh at last a job I would like. To the darling Actress Sharon Stone, it’s a Nelly Kelly Dilemma thing, yeah honey, and I want a chance to miss you too: “No matter what I do, all I think about is you, even when I am with with my boooooo,,,, yah know I am crazy over you..................... And its more than you’ll ever know, its for sure, you can always count on my love forever more.............................. Thats what happens when you love baby, its pure poison. I hope guys don’t go getting all frustrated over the music, Its not like I posted that song by Nellie Its getting hot in here so take off all your cloths, in here, now that would have been just plain wrong. The skinny or the upshot of the entire matter written about here, is that man’s position with God right now, right at this point in time is very PRECARIOUS. It is precarious because man is engaging in behavior that God never created or intended him for. That is why there is all the uncertainty surrounding mans eternal existence. The problem is in telling this story of the truth, if I don’t tell it just right, well then, I have to tell it all over again, to make it make better sense. So I added some onions and cheese on it, to make it more palatable, more easy to understand. I did that only only only so that the real truth of the what is really going on will be more easily read, more easily understood, more easily tolerated. Hope all of this helps.

NO Achan's sin was taking of the accursed thing, which is listed as taking anything that God had cursed for the people of Israel under Old Testament Law. You didn't have to tell me that, I already knew that Calvinists sanctify things God calls accursed. Included in the accursed things, are adultry, fornication, having other Gods besides God before them. Pretty much doing everything that inititated Calvinists in general are all about. We are not just living in just Old Testament dynamics anymore either, rather we are living under that New Commandment of the New Testament. James 2:10 “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point,he is guilty of all.” VPW be damned, that is what he taught, that the old testament relevance was relegated to the back seat of his car. Odd, that someone who was a TWI person, cannot sniff out that.Never found a bible verse yet that a Calvinist couldn’t circumvent. Uhh gee lets see here, the cursed things are listed in Dueteronomy 27:15-26, Apparently good ole Achan at least had a thing for his mother in law. That would be verse 23. Yeah, uh you really hitched Calvinism to a winner there huh! Ah ah ah ah what that in verse 21 no beastiality? Shame on Achan, poor ole Achan, I guess nobody ever told him about that one. Yep, leave it to a Calvinist to portray Achan as a ‘good ole boy’. Even tho, taking of the accursed thing, is pretty much the worst person one could ever find. Calvinism, puts the morale imperative of fulfilling Gods commandments on God, not man, at least to the inititated Calvinist. If you don’t believe that one is true, just try and ask good ole Achan someday. Achan he is a aching with that one. As far as your other words go Cynic, its replete with excesses, the same kind of excesses that people like VPW and Daniel Dennett are well accustomed too. John Calvin always made his bed in bad company. If you have anymore curve balls you feel someone should field, the Calvinist thread is more than sufficient, as well as all the “other scriptures”, that II Peter :16 speaks volumes too, enough is enough. Gods unconditional plan of salvation, was instituted for only one lifetime. One lifetime is the condition for that plan of salvation. Period. Otherwise there would be no need to institute the provisions of returning to Old Testament Law, returning back to the Jews for understanding what the scripture meant. This is all very very clear from the scriptures because of the out provisions God ascribed to himself in Romans 11:13-36. The severity of God provisions were instituted by God, because he knew mans twisted nature was of that to disobey the gospel. The severity of God provisions in force are Romans 11:21, which read, “ For if God spared not the natural branches take heed lest he also spare not thee.” It couldnt be more clear than that. And the natural branches are Israel, which places Jews, not Gentiles in charge of the things of God. Particularily the ordinances and commandments of God. This is all very old well known material. Furthermore, the Jews, never tolerated that sin that Calvinists love, that is sin is adultery and fornication. The Jews questioned Jesus about it and idealized that they might be able to twist it, but they never once doubted God’s Almighties sincerity of intent with what the law spoke to do on the matter. The didn’t question the Almighties intent, because they knew the law was righteous in all its dealing with them. Jewish people know this, in fact, true Jewish people God has written it on there hearts. You can find that in the bible too. Romans 11:26, “And so all Israel shall be saved....” All Israel, constitute all those who God has written his commandments on there hearts. I think I am just going to do what the bible says to do with here say, leave it where it is and say no more. The bible is a document of the truth and the facts and defends itself to those who dont wrest with it. Employ a bible verse to defend the Gospel, That would be II Peter 3:16 , “ Also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” That is a really nice scripture there that talks about “other scriptures.” That is because every last one of those scriptures actually counts. Is now listed on my SIG. Blessed be, the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wonderous things, who only doeth wonderous things oh blessed be, his glorious name for ever..... It a well known song. One they sang and danced to because of God Almighties glorious majesty. Israel danced that is who, they danced because he gave them all he had, and protected them too.

I agree very much with Shellon, that was very well stated by Geisha; And Geisha you did NOT go overboard you merely expressed your heart thank you. I agree with you Geisha that salvation is there for sinners, and the man who had AIDS has need of salvation too. No Cynic, I am not obsessed with Calvinism, unrepentant Calvinists are obsessed with adultery and fornication, and greed for money and other mens wifes, as witness by the fact they don’t ever think that they have to repent. There salvation plan is UNCONDITIONAL, because they love there sin. Election is based upon making your calling and election sure, as stated by the scripture in Peter that has been quoted over and over again on the bottom of my SIG. If you want to wander around in the wilderness for 40 years on the road to nowhere that be your business, for the initiated Calvinists to do. Kimberly made me aware of my 700 sentences, Kimberly telling me I have been talking to long. Kimberly is right. You wanna wander around in circles go re-read the Calvinist thread over and over and over. Thats all John Calvin ever was, was big mouth who talked himself and others in nonsensical circles. I take a lot of heat for trying to help you Calvinists, because other people are saying that I am getting to lengthy. So that, it is a finished matter for me.So I need to stop talking about Calvinism, because if I stop right now the amount of material is understandable and perfect. It’s a perfect point for me to stop. You people have a bible, that bible tells you the truth about what doctines that are wrong and off the wall; and the bible tell you what those doctrines will look and accomplish in deeds , yet you want to demolish the Bible like VPW did for your own greed. I am getting off that bus right now.

When the US military forces direct a surgical strike against hostile forces are you then angry? Is your anger intensified when you later find out children died as well? Is this what it means to be human? Who ever said war was humane? Who ever said war could be understood? War and dying is about love, and hate, envy and scorn. Is war about getting rid of all evil in the name of something that is suppose to be humane? Why then is war not humane? If only one child dies in war instead of 5 does that make war more humane? The news media says it does, they say so all the time. They say it when they report a lower death tally then the day before, then having lost less lives people are suppose to rejoice? Speak on tell me then if you have the answer to all these questions? Job 38:2 God provided the answer to this in the form of a question when he said, “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?” Job did not know the answer why God allowed the things to happen to him that he did. Yet we know that it was not God who ordered the test of Job, but it was Satan. (Job 2:1-7) Satan, put Job in a tough spot with God. Sure God consented to the test, but only because he had something that Job had to learn. God said of himself, “God is not a man that he should lie niether the son of man that he should repent.”(Numbers 23:19) God was not always a man, but chose to reveal himself as a man so that he could be understood. There fore no God has never been barbaric, but neither could God ever understand how barbaric men can be, this is why he died on Calvary. You say that you “know why God instituted harsh punishment in the OT???? But you do not say precisely why you know that. Was the harsh punishment for restorative justice? If so then why does justice never conclude itself and men never stop doing evil? I recognize that as a woman you have been abused, because you say that the whole in God’s image thing, by that you imply that men take advantage of there make up as men to abuse women, , AND YOU ARE CORRECT THEY DO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT. I never said the female sex was lessor, I simply said they were less barbaric then males. In the book of Job, Job goes through a litany of his personal problems with and about God and God’s treatment of him. Job simply does not understand THAT BIG QUESTION WHY. Job cries out WHY WHY WHY. Then Jobs friends have all the answers even tho there answers are all wrong. Job knows there answers are wrong, Job knows there answers are wrong because they did not understand Job. So what does Job say to his friends and there misplaced judgement on JOB’s life? Job says to them, “I have heard many such things, miserable comforters are ye all.” (Job 16:2) Unless you understand somebody elses circumstances, life, events, and ALL the particulars, all a person is doing is throwing around miserable advice. The advice might well be very comforting, because at least Job wasnt all alone, but it only served to make Job more miserable, THAT NO ONE, NO ONE AT ALL UNDERSTOOD JOB’S PREDICAMENT. Is it not so very unusual for God to teach all mankind that lesson, through troubling times. Notice also that Job said, “I have heard many such things.” By that Job meant he had heard there song and dance and words before. There words made no sense to Job. They didnt make any sense to Job, because Jobs situation was far different then what his friends thought they knew of. Jobs friends were ignorant of his circumstances, because anothers persons sufferings didn’t imact them directly, they were only afraid of the fact that what was happening to Job, could happen to them. That is also why VPW was so huge on dismantling Job, he wanted to deceive people into thinking that they never would have to suffer, so that he could control people at all times. If my own particular situation were to find some restorative justice, it would be because no one gossiped about me anymore. This is because peoples mouths are the source of all murder. Murder starts from peoples mouths because they exaggerate and lie and leave out details about another person in order to destroy them. This, I think, has always been the truth, always will be too. I would direct you to prayerful meditation of Psalm 21, which should provide you Geisha with hope and solace and consolation, in all manner of trying circumstances. BTW, Geisha, nice catch on the Stephen one, I had to go look that one up, sorry I missed it. "and stoned" Act 7:58, however he certainly wasnt stoned for violating any Old Testemant law, so that was a difference. Hey Kimberly, you called me honey, you know , I dont know what to say sweetness, I like the lovey dovey thing at the end too, thanks sugar plum. Cannot think of anything better to do right now, right here than talk bout stones. Me

Geisha You have to understand WHY God instituted the stoning thing. God instituted it so that he could STOP sin, if God could get sin stopped, then that situation that you mentioned would never have occured. So that, you have to see that the principal of the matter is good, and I know that you know that because you mentioned Jesus came to heal people and make things right with mankind. But Jesus also came to give us an understanding of these Old Testament prinicipals, which he did. One other important thing Geisha, the bible says God made MAN in his own image, a women is far different in many respects than a man. Men are far more barbaric then women, which is why I personally, find myself less threatened in the presence of a woman. I suppose there is many many ways to say what I just did, in fact Year 2027, Roy, said it rather eloquently on his thread when he said, God is not a dictator. Thank you Roy.

Thanks for the post Wordwolf. I referred to it because it was a SINGLE ACT OF STONING, where the act of stoning an individual occured. What you posted from scripture was all the various situationals a person might find one self in,and what one should do in those situations: BIG DIFFERENCE.

The Sin of Adultery and Fornication @ AI And Resultant Stoning. There is only one single instance that the Old Testament commandment about STONING an adulterous person is recorded. It is recorded in the book of Joshua Chapter 7. So all Israel stoned a man that committed adultery by the name of Achan and he died. It pretty common knowledge that this single Old Testament Law of stoning an Adulterer, that is frequently cited as criticism aimed at God for making a law so severe and resolute, that the people who cite it do it to pick on God. The people that do that kind of stuff, do it and say it because they love to portray the God of the Old Testament as a grumpy old man, even tho he is never grumpy at all, he is simply misunderstood by those who refuse faith towards him. The only other instance brought up in scripture about stoning is the well known story from John 8: 1-11, wherein a woman was brought to Jesus, caught in the act of adultery, and the scribes and Pharisees brought to Jesus attention that the Old Testament Law required stoning to which Jesus responded, “He that is without sin among you let him cast a stone at her.” It certainly has been my observation, that no other statement by Jesus have more people taken advantage of and used wrongfully, in order to commit and get away with adultery. I was watching that Rock Star , Brett Michaels TV show one time with my wife, and Michaels quoted that phrase that Jesus spoke, as an actual REASON to continue on in his behavior. To Michaels if there is NO accountability for something, that by definition is his REASON TO BEHAVE A CERTAIN WAY. Pathetic. So anyway, the question has to come up, Why such severe punishment on the one hand, and on the other hand such tolerance? There can be only one answer and that answer is the gift of salvation God offered in the person of his son Jesus Christ. There is absolutely no other answer. This is why it is so dangerous to take advantage of that gift, it is not a gift that keeps on giving. It is a one time gift, given here on the planet on once for one lifetime here, it is not offered anymore else than for a person during one lifetime here. A person with a bad heart would say, “well does that mean everybody can get by with sin for one lifetime all they want?” That is the problem you see, if you think that way you have a bad heart to begin with. Furthermore it is spoken of specifically that God is going to go back to Old Testament dynamics, if the gift of salvation is not taken seriously. God Almighty had the right to give the gift of salvation in the person of Jesus Christ, and he has the right to take it away. The take away provisions are in Romans Chapter 11, most particularily the last versus. The take away provisions are Romans 11:22 which says, “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God, on them which fell, severity; but towards thee goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise thou also shall be cut off. The question then becomes what does continuing in his goodness mean? At a minimum, it does for sure not mean someone has the right, to act and behave like Brett Michaels. It cannot mean that because Michaels is not continuing in God’s goodness at all, in fact, he uses God’s goodness to commit adultery. That is rather astonishing that someone could behave and be that bold. Pathetic. If you had a chance to read the Ozzie Osborne thread, I mentioned on that thread that Led Zeppelin’s Jimmy Page was involved in Satanism. I also mentioned that while involved in it, Page was writing lyrics which didn’t even make the remotest amount of sense. That is the thing about , Satanim, and the Devil, they don’t want anyone to know what they are trying to do, because if you did you would reject it outright as evil and diabolical; then God would win everybody who bothered to give Satan a second look. The lyrics of rock band Rock band Iron Maiden pretty much describe in great detail, what Satan’s plan is and what it looks like. One would think that Iron Maiden focused on prose to lay out the details of Satans plan, because there was no other conceivable way to say it. But don’t take my word for it just google up the text of Iron Maiden’s lyrics and read them yourself. I know what some of you are thinking, your thinking what is the moron sky4it saying now, that Iron Maiden is saved? I don’t have the wherewith all to make that call, that is between God, Jesus Christ and Iron Maiden. Only God Almighty can know what the reason was that Iron Maiden made there lyrics just so. One would think that exposing Satan for what he is, is something that would honor Jesus Christ not diminish him. I did a brief study on the internet on the topic of Iron Maiden and Satanism, most people stated they did NOT view Iron Maiden as a Satanist group. One fellow went so far as to say that Iron Maiden was not anymore of a Satanic rock group, than Frank Sinatra was a Satanic lounge player. Perhaps one illustration will fit the particulars better. It is very well known that former Actress Katherine Hepburn was a well known atheist. But Hepburn was a practicing atheist, she practiced her beliefs in atheism against other people. Iron Maiden does not practice Satanism, in fact here is the quote they had to describe themselves: Q: Are Iron Maiden Satanic? A: “ The answer is no were not.” That was a direct quote from Iron Maiden. Wether someone is a certain thing, has almost at all times to do with wether they practice it or not. Now it might be that ONE or Two members of the band Iron Maiden were Satanists, but this does not appear to be the case, because the answer by Iron Maiden was “The answer is no WERE NOT.” By the word WERE, one can infer that the band member who said it was answering for the entire band. On one particular occassion, I mentioned that I thought the Old Testament Law of stoning made perfectly good sense to me and should be re-thought out as a viable option. I was basically accused of believing in executing people, and being way overboard and out of line. If you don’t believe me, say it yourself one time, you basically get about the same response one does if they say something nice about Ozzie Osborne. We also know that God had to mean stoning in a literal sense, because you cannot read the story of the sin of AI, or the story that happened around Jesus and take it any other way. The other thing is if your own spouse ever did commit adultery, if they did, you would have a far greater appreciation and wholesome respect for the concept of stoning people for the act of adultery. Jesus himself alluded to that fact when he called married people, “one flesh.” By “one flesh” he means one person, or two people acting as one, so that the sin causes the other party irreplacable damages. One other concept is really important to understand in order to understand the concept of stoning. That is the fact that adultery and fornication are the cause of all manor of sickness and sometimes even death. Its in the bible. It’s New Testament not Old Testament. It says that fornication is a sin against your own body. I Corinthians 6:18 says and I quote, “Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.” The Apostle Pauls writings basically gave us two things for Christians which were God’s expressed devine will for Christians, “for this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that you should abstain from fornication.” (I Thessalonians 4:3); “In everything give thanks for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.” (I Thessalonians 5:18): which fill up Jesus commandment of loving you neighbor as yourself. Can’t have it spelled out any clearer than that. It is also just like I said on the Calvinist thread up and down and side to side: Everything petty much boils down to what people do in there underwear and there own greed, because thanksgiving is an anti dote for greed. All of this speaks volumes to the fact why some people hate and cant stand the concept of stoning. They can’t stand it because they want to commit the act with impunity. Also, if people know that fornications and adultry causes sickness and sometimes death, it operates perfectly because under those circumstances, nobody should want that kind of risk.(Which means that the concept of stoning is a GRACE driven procedure, just as much at it is a legal one. It only appears legal because people will not or refuse to understand the dynamics of it.) It is also, the very same reason that wholesome sweetheart type of women, simply refuse the gestures of men they think or have reason to think have committed many acts of adultry and fornication. They don’t want to risk there own health away because they understand with such people their health is very much in jeopardy. Also, the fact that the stoning procedure was only implemented ONE TIME, proves that God is full of hope, love, faith and the generous nature of God. But it also shows the severe side of God, in that, people seeing this happen on ONLY ONE occassion, ought to be enough in that they really should never have to see it again to understand the holy commandment which caused the procedure of stoning to be implemented. The book of Hebrews spells out both sides of the entire matter. The “better way” in the book of Hebrews was the grace way, but only so that people could understand the Law better. In fact the book of Galations indicates if a person refuses the understanding of the grace way, they are not under grace anymore, they are under the Law. A person is justified one time by the free gift, but NOT justified if they refuse to obey the provisions of that gift. Because refusal of it puts a person right back under that Law. That is what the book of Galations, is mostly about. (The book of Romans identifies the same concept and speaks as to how God will deal with people who refuse the Gospel.) Down to earth easy things to grasp, all of it really is. Refusing the grace of the gospel simply means you go out and do what you want, time after time. A perfect example is Rock star Brett Michaels behavior of someone who continually refuses to obey the gospel. The summary or final conclusion of this matter then is, that Stoning is not Exectution, it was simply a procedure put in place to have the CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL get rid of Sin. Moreover, some of this stuff tell people also exactly how the Holy Trinity operates. The Holy Trinity is very interesting and very very thorough and efficient.

Anyway, to finish up this thread a few more strokes about Charles Darwin are in order. Weve all been talking about honesty and integrity with oneself around the GS Café recently. You have to understand that in Charles Darwins day, there was no such a thing as a peer reviewed study, there wasn’t someone following Darwin to the Gallapgos Islands, Charles Darwin went and did these things by himself. You have to remember Charles Darwin was a man who woke up one morning, went off to work and tried to explain to people how a mouse turned itself into a cat. That ought to tell you about all you need to know about Darwin in the first place. So your probably asking yourself, why didn’t they put a straight jacket on Charley right then and there. It’s a good question and it deserves a good answer. You see, Charlie was a little smarter than that. Charley went out and tried to gather some evidence about evolution, and the chief evidence he supplied was his Galapagos Finches, and there differing beak sizes. But there is a huge huge problem with this. Charley was in all likelihood comparing female finches beaks to male finches beaks, and then pretending they were all from just males. Charlie probably just went out and shot a bunch of finches, and cut off there beaks, and then said they were all males when they were a mix. Also, Charlie could have had a file in his back pocket, and tweeked the beak so to speak. You say to yourself well that is horrible nobody should be allowed to do that. Yeah precisely, but that doesn’t mean that that isnt exactly what happened. You have to realize that Charley did all this stuff 150 years ago, before things like a test tube were actually in use. And there is absolutely no way, no how, can someone from that era, say that Darwins methods were scientific. Darwin had motive, the motive was to push evolution along, and the only viable path was that he needed a reason to fit the theory, so what Charley did was make one up. The other thing is, there is lots of people who do stuff like that to become famous. Charley had all the motive in the world, to push that snake of his up a tree. I am NOT the first one to say things like this about the theory of evolution. Over the years there has been many other people, who manufactured evidence to propel the theory. If you want to read about them they are in the last 4 chapters of Miss Ann Colther’s book called Godless. Stories like pinning moths on the different parts of a tree to make it look like the moth can evolve. Stories of someone burying a skeleton in the back yard of an English home with a baboons head on it to discover the missing link. The lengths some people have went to to push the wheel barrow that is evolution around is positively astonishing. Anyway, that is about all I have to say about evolution now, if you need more, and like to look into the scientific parameters of the discussion and where it stands today, I would refer you to Professor David Berlinski’s many writings, because he and some others are the most knowledgeable people around on the subject. There is right now, a new group of atheists on the horizon called Cladists. The Cladists are far far worse than the Darwinists. Hardcore Cladism, doesn’t even believe in Charles Darwins theory of evolution. What hard core Cladists believe, is that the actual fossil record represents splits in and between species themselves. Its getting weird, and its going to get a whole lot weirder. What do you think it is actually that they are doing with the human genome project? I will tell you this, they are not trying to map out a place for anybody in heaven. They are trying to map out, every last one of your cells, so that they can figure out which people are more viably reproductive. Which people have more to offer society, why some people are more productive and intelligent than others. What it is, is , science with peoples heads on a plate, and it really should scare the living hell out of people. Now there may be some people that work on the human genome project that don’t have this agenda, but it is what it is, and the purpose for it is, its genesis. You say to yourself that the human genome project is about advances in health care, and your right it is. I have no problem with that either. The problem is with people who want to use such information for other purposes, like procreation and such. And if you think that there are not people out there like that, well then your just flat out wrong. There is actually people out there, who based on your genes would want to mate with you and have your baby just based on that. And if that aint flat out weird, I dunno what is. As much as everyone loves to believe in the kindness and generous spirit of humankind, I am just not that trusting, of someone who thinks the only thing that exists in my inner core, is a bag full of genes. Now when I said its going to get worse, its going to get a whole lot worse. There are actually people out there, in the name of science right now, who think if you have faith or believe in God Almighty, its in your genes. I am not making this stuff up, if you don’t believe me, google it up. While there are many bible verses that speak to God’s eternal existence, there is one that sticks out and screams rather loud. It’s in I John 4:8 which says, “God is love.” Love didn’t create itself, because God didn’t create himself, he has just simply always existed. Love doesn’t exist in genes or any particle of matter. It can’t: matter has no thought, no reason, no motive. It is hard to imagine or conceive on the face of things, how love could ever be born. Yet, there it is, right in front of everyone’s noses, born in a manger for you and me. It didn’t have to be born, it was born because people wanted to see it born, so that they could have a chance to rip it off. And I can’t think of absolutely any other reason love had to be born. If something can be killed it can die off and not come back. Why the hell anybody would want to kill love, is insane. Love has already been killed once, it sat there on a cross with two spikes in each hand, and two spikes in each foot. It’s pretty much just flat out jealousy, malice and hatred: that Satan, the Devil and Lucifer, wanted to rip off everything God ever had.. And that is why I am pretty much done discussing evolution. After all, that is all evolution is pretty much all about, ripping off God so that someone doesn’t need to have any particular reason to do whatever they want to.

Yeah ok guys I get the point. I don’t claim to have some panoramic view into the minds of evil caricitures which give me some edge in capability. And I think you guys are partially correct, its not good to sit around and think about such things. I partially alluded, saying that a constant diet of how devious and wayward people think is NOT healthy. But there is the other end of the extreme too, and I think it says in Corinthians one place, “ that we are not ignorant of his devices.” So that, if you end up with your foot in a bear trap, its kind of nice when walking around to know that someone put a bear trap back there which a person can avoid. Speaking of EXACTLY what you guys mentioned, I remember years ago there was this book written by two Christian women, who were into excorcizing demons and such. The story in the book was horrific. They described in some detail, things flying around the room, it sounded like something right out of the excorcist. Some people were heavily into doing that kind of stuff way back when. But remember too, that it really got weird. There was this one guy who was running around people who smoked cigarettes, and if you brand of smoke was Merit, he was casting out the demon of Merit.(I mean running around casting out the spirit of Merit out of somebody is just plain strange and weird.) (We actually have a hospital over here called Meritcare. I mean I really somebody should cast the Merit out of there name Meritcare, then they could change it too MoneyCare, which fits them much better. , but I realize that that is not a demon, or is it? Tee he, yes I am joking.) So that I think all that stuff kind of got overboard and indescent. And after that it all (that movement) just kind of died out. I personally happen to believe in the supernatural world, an angelic and demon ridden world, and I am aware that a lot of people don’t. But the bible is pretty clear, in NT theology, that there are real demons, real angels etc etc. But I also recognize like you guys stated, that focusing on that all the time is bothersome and weird. I think its weird because people have free wills, to come and go as they please, at least pretty much. It’s also weird because a person cannot change someone else’s will, by focusing exclusively on external forces affecting their lives. But I do find it rather telling that, from time to time, there is always something coming up, about the Devil, and Satan and their influence, so that, at least to me, it’s strange not to at least account for it. But I do understand what you guys are saying and I mostly agree with it. Because its not healthy to stand around and think about all the devious things and schemes some people can do. If one does, well they would sick themselves after a while. And the bible pretty much says that too, saying in Phillipians, whatsover things are true, honest, pure, lovely ..etc...... THINK ON THESE THINGS. Phillipians 4:8, Why? Because its healthy to think about good things, not devious things. But I thought I made that notation in my last notes, and thank for making me claify. That is all and thank for your comments. Perhaps more germain to the thought is fighting against “badies” can be a real experience. The bible is choke full of at least laying it out what is there: Eph 6: 11-12: “the wiles of the devil”, “against the rulers of darkness of this world”, “against spiritual wickedness in high places” But in Colossians too it talks about not getting involved in worshiping of angels, “intruding into those things he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind.” So that, I understand the concept, where to draw the line on things that I have not seen. The larger point being, I was just trying to specify nefarious type of thinking that I have seen in some people, to make a short list of some of the bear traps that some people set for others. I don’t know guys, for me, getting in a rhubarb with wayward people is kind of like playing Donkey Kong. You got ole Donkey Kong throwing everything at you including the kitchen sink. I am not sure there is a whole load of value in it, other than you get a lot of exercise. Special thanks to Invisible Dan and Cman, I wrote this with you guys in mind: Ha ha. Uh no Dan, I think I have already pretty much done that. I wouldn’t wanna spill out to much more, because I run the risk of vaporizing the thin ice I am pretty much on all day, and I have to keep what little goodwill I still have around these parts in tact. But that is truly descent thing about the GS Café. You can come in here, and overbake things, and nobody gets all upset and out of wack about it. I think they don’t get upset about it, because most the people in here, have pretty much seen things overbaked far too many times. Imagine that, this little hole in the wall called GS Café, where people stand around and try to help each other, even if someone thinks what your saying is flat out weird. (Its hysterical really.) And nobody else on the planet really understands any of that, because a lot of people never had things so bad in some doctrinal experience or whatever, that they really had to try to CARE despite all of that. But people shouldn’t think, just like that about former TWI people or anyone else. It’s like some folks try to think of others, based upon what they did that failed. Then, because something you did failed, they kind of think of that person as a loser. But that is not the reality of life, the reality is, everybody fails from time to time. You remember when I mentioned to you about my involvement early in my life with an Independent Assemblies of God place which fell apart. The question is that took me some time to resolve was ,”Was it really a failure?” To which I would have to mutter, Nope not at all. One of the most successful things I ever experienced in all my life. Successful because I learned from failings what doesn’t work, what can’t work, what kind of prayers don’t work. But it was really really ODD that, just like in TWI, a lot of the folks that left there, seemed to take with them a big GRUDGE against God and other people. As if they themselves had done enough, went far enough, had a difficult time enough, so as that they would never have a desire to plant a foot on a bible verse again. I kind of learned after a while that that type of thinking and bitterness leads to a life of misplaced fortunes. At the time that all this stuff was going on for me there was this one bible verse that hit me like a lead pipe cinch. It’s Hebrews 6:10 which reads, “God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which you have shewed towards his name...... etc” The Almighty is not unrighteous because he has better things in store for people if they can just move on and through all the crap and junk. But bitterness of the soul can rob a person of all of that. You might find it interesting that I know these three people who are Jehovahs Witnesses. They are very very nice people, caring people who would give you the shirt of there backs. And one of them, he always tries to recruit me into becoming a JW. And while he is doing it, its like he feels sorry for me. He really does, he thinks I am on the outside looking in about everything he has, and I don’t got. But the JW’s, I pretty much stay away from what there brew is, because they spin Greek works and hinge a TON of things on just a few bible verses. But I cannot say that they are 100 percent wrong about all that either. So anyways, one day I was talking to this female JW, whom I positively adore. So I had to kind of let her know at least one thing about JW’s that really really bugged me big time. So I let it rip, You know how the JW is always talking about the 144,000 in the bible, and they told me that those people are already made up and there was no chance for an alley cat like me to be a part of the 144,000 in the book of Revelation. And this was really really bugging me big time about those guys. They already had the glue and the house built and I was on the outs, never having so much as a single chance to be apart of the 144,000 that they are always talking about. So I am talking to this female JW that I have always adored, and I told her, “What incentive is there to be a JW, if I don’t even stand as much as a single chance to be a part of the 144,000?” And she just roared and went off laughing so hard, she was laughing so hard that she just about fell over and cried. Then she says too me, Thats not true, those things are not made up yet. Now well all of this did not make me BECOME A JW, I learned on thing, that is , one JW is not always the same as the next JW. And I honestly cannot say that I have not learned something good from the JW’s. I mean, I am not a JW, but I certainly don’t hold JW’s in contempt for everything they are, like some people in churches do. What I am trying to say is that I think the JW is actually kind of a neat person, tidy and really nice people to be around. I sometimes really like those guys, because they are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS are nice to me. They are really honest people too, there is no nonsense with those guys. That’s about all it takes for an alley cat like myself. A warm saucer of milk will pretty much get someone there with me. Now I am Not a JW, but you know what, I like being around those guys sometimes because they treated me so kind and wonderful.( But I pretty much have to qualify all of this too, because the JW’s I know, never were poisoned about some like myself with gossip and other stuff. So that maybe they were just being nice to me, because they never yet heard, of all the awful things that I supposedly am. It’s like you can get a magic carpet ride with some folks, based upon the principal they don’t know much about you at all. But what if everything somebody was saying about someone else wasn’t remotely truthful? Well, I think that is why the bible tells us not to Judge someone else, cause the truth is sometimes others don’t have a clue or a vowel about what makes someone else tick. And maybe maybe maybe, JW’s and some other religious people really understand all of that. ) But if you have to stand around and think about all this stuff too much, a person can become artifitually insane, just based upon others preconceived ideas of what everybody else has to be like. I actually think that a person can tell as much about someone else just based upon how or wether they say Hello and Goodbye. If a person says hello in a warm manner, they make you feel welcome. If person looks at you and says nothing, they make you feel like why in the world are you standing there in the first place. If a person says Goodbye when your leaving in a warm tone, they make you feel like they might want you to come back. If a person gives you a cold stare when your leaving, you pretty much feel like you shouldn’t be coming back anytime soon. I met this young nice woman, who is married with one kid. She never says NO to anybody. I call her Lifes Hello and Goodbye Girl. That’s because when she says Hello, you almost have to say Goodbye real fast, because she is so nice, and friendly and considerate, that she overwhelms people with her caring. And its really really hard not to want to be around someone who is just like that. Because when your older like myself, your pretty much greedy for trying with someone like that. In this way our society is so mixed up and inconsiderate. If a person who is man, talks to a young women and is friendly, a lot of people think, it is because they want to have sex with that person. And about some people who are terrible that is the truth. You know, people like Donald Trump, that all he cares about is bating and boating and backseating some young beautiful woman. But its just not fair that the rest of us, should have to pay the price for Donald Trumps wayward underwear. Not everybody, (at least I hope) who talks to a young woman wants to sack her. But people have to pay a price, everybody, for nefarious minds like Donald Trump, because the way Donald Trump behaves he makes look good and right, to behave just like that. Then, I wonder, where is the VALUES of people, that they want to magnify a man like Donald Trump? Why on earth would anybody want to extoll a man whose behavior is right up there with Hugh Hefner and Larry Flynt? Personally, I think its because people like those that can fly high and make it work.(They like it because they like success stories, but not all success stories are equal.) They like it, not because they want to be like that, but BECAUSE THEY DON’T WANT TO BE LIKE THAT. And they understand that the Johnny Rambos of this world, like Trump, are just smoke and mirrors, plastic people, who place no value on anything other than themselves. And they like to look at stuff like that, because it reminds them of HOW AWFUL THEY THEMSELVES ARE NOT. Or do they? Cause if they really thought it was awful, well then people wouldn’t pay some one like Trump an ounce of courtesy and respect. It’s sort of the rubicks cube of life, that people are interested in other people that they simply have no earthly way of explaining, or complaining, about how a person can act just like that. But if a person is indifferent about stuff like that, it makes one look like they agree the behavior. Donald Trump is like the real live definition, of what a leprechaun is really like. This mans behavior defines, what a leprechaun is really like. Uffda, I am glad I got that one out. I don’t think I could live another day, without pointing that one out. But people that behave like Trump, its actually a Biblical crime. Its not a worldly crime. In fact, in some peoples minds, like Hugh Hefner, too live just like Trump does, is a virtue.It’s a virtue to them, because they can do it and get by with it, there cannot be any other possible reason. But people that think like that, that is what you call control and abusive behavior too. And I will be honest with you, it makes the God of the Old Testament, look just way to kind that they can get by with it at all. Then, people stand around and complain about the Old Testament as being way too overboard and difficult and having ruthless judgements. I don’t see that about the Old Testament at all. Just the fact, that someone like Trump can do the things he does right now with impunity, proves to me that God is way too lenient and tolerant of some people. But I think the good news is that someday, all the things in Old and New Testament alike, will be established for the true good that they really are. And I just can’t understand, why its so hard to discern the difference in why something that is evil like that(like Donald Trumps acts and deeds.) , is so hard for people to get. It’s easy, its as easy as American apple pie. Don’t ever have a tooth to pick with a man like Donald Trump. Because if you do, he will own everything that you ever wanted or had. Its about his cavalier way in which he walks right through other people, as if everyone is just another nickel in his pocket waiting to be spent. Now I know that talking about devils and such isn’t polite and well rounded. But if somebody was to tell me that Donald Trump, is not a devil in hiding, well I would beg to differ. Trump is like deceit, incarnate, born for that very purpose. People don’t need to stand around with a rubicks cube, trying to figure out just what it is that makes a man like him move. Trump pretty much just sacks and pillages people by isolating them one on one. And the entire time he does it, he does it while he is appealing to himself. Because you see, your just not good enough, if your not Donald like. Learn therefore now, what it is too be Donald like, because when you do, Donald will make sure you can float for another day. He will make you famous for it too, Donald style. Hot dog, doesn’t that just make young women want to take a back seat in Donalds car. Sure looks like it for some. It’s sort of the worst rub in life, when you have to point out the personal failings of a man like Trump. It’s a bad rub because Trump never met anyone, not a single soul, that had something that he couldn’t own or buy. And if he can’t own it or buy it, well then his life is too dismantled to even think about. Because everything to a man like Trump, is just another cigar or plaque in his office for him to smoke, because nothing in this life is more worthy or can have more virtue that it shouldn’t be on his top shelf. And I cant even begin to reason, or fathom, how a man can think or act just like that. But don’t think that I know too much about stuff nobody else can see. I don’t know if you guys have ever seen those tatoos that a few women put on the small of there backs above there rear ends. I was asking myself one day, why on earth would somebody want to put a tatoo right there. It seems like a very odd place for a tatoo, because they cant even see there own tatoo. Then, one day it dawned on me, that it was probably some leprechaun like Trump that came up with that idea.(or some other leprechuan that is like Trump) Why? Well to identify all the women on the planet that a leprechaun wants to sodomize of course. And the sick thing is, the women that do that, don’t even have clue that that is what those tatoos are all about. I actually feel sorry for those girls, because they have a tattoo back there that they don’t even know what it is all about. Perhaps that is why the bible in the OT talks about not having marks and cuttings and tatoos on your body, because there are leprechauns out there, who when they don’t have anything better to do think up this kind of weird stuff. It’s like the goofiest looking tatoo ever from a distance too. From a distance those tatoos look like pubic hair or something, which kind of tell people what the leprechauns are all about. Of course, I am not 100 percent sure that is how those tattoos on the small of a few womens backs came about. That is what you call an educated guess. Perhaps I have been thinking to much lately, trying to hard to figure things out. It does appear, however, that there is a hidden meaning behind those tattoes on the small of a womens back. And like I said, I actually feel sorry for women who go get those tatoos because they don’t know better, cause nobody has ever told them, what the leprechuans are up to and really like. And like I said, I could be wrong about all of this, but the thought occurred to me, that must be the reason for those tattoes. Then there is screwball stuff like, who on earth came up with the term - a hopeless romantic? No doubt, it had to be some screwball leprechaun, who every time he tried to be romantic couldn’t possibly score. But women mostly say they are in love with romance. And they are because it makes them feel rather secure about what scoring with them is all about. And most women can’t even sit still, if scoring isn’t mostly about romance, because to them it has no value otherwise, and I really can’t say that I disagree with a woman about that. So that, I don’t like to try to be romantic, I just mostly hope that I am romantic, because otherwise there really isnt much of anything else left to decide. I don’t think somebody can actually be romantic by trying either, women are just far to different in what from woman to woman they decide is romantic. To one woman it’s a candle lit dinner, to another a dozen roses from a far. And nobody can try to make themselves into a one size fits all shoe for stuff like that. It does seem really true, however ,that if a person is romantic by nature, there is absolutely nothing hopeless about that, at least with a woman. Because it’s the one that always steals there hearts for love and everything else. And a woman kind of wants you to know that, that is exactly what scoring with her is all about. Because if scoring isnt about everything she is about, to her it is a useless, wasteful parting of all your time. And there is absolutely nothing there that anyone can reasonably disagree with. So that, the term to be more accurate at least with someone who is honest and sincere in there intentions, ought to read a “hopeful romantic.”(And only with woman, a hopeless romantic, because they are hopeless because it doesn’t yield the results they want.) Men want to try to have hope, because you really never wanted to be diminished or anything less about what your doing. (The reason men can never have hope in romance, is that romance is something most men never wanted to begin with, all they ever wanted was that thing between there legs adorned.) With a great woman, its sort of like that movie ‘The Longest Yard.” Its that yard that a great women will never give a man if she knows his intentions and sincerity is out of kilter. And a really fine woman absolutely demands all of that, otherwise she simply feels diminished about everything else. I think that is probably about enough for me tho Dan, handing out educations on JW’s and some other things, is something I never thought I would remotely ever try to do. Because I remember hearing when I was really young that they were a cult. And I always was pretty much been really scared of somebody who is in a cult. I saw this one group, down in Dinkytown Minneapolis when I was 19. They were like the wierdest people I had ever seen. I mean they were into statues and eating victuals and doing like chants and stuff. It was so weird that after watching them a few times, everytime I heard the word CULT, I just really freaked out big time. I will just show you one other thing, about why it is the PERSON, DOING THE ACTION THAT IS THE EVIL THING, NOT what people say that makes the difference. I have heard of or know of this one person, whose name is Terry Glenn, he is a football player. Terry Glenn rarely ever asks one single question that he doesn’t have the answer for before he asks the question. You say to yourself well that is not so unusual, if other people do the same thing. Its only unusual if your name is Terry Glenn, because Terry Glenn does stuff like that to dictate on his own terms the conversation and to CONTROL PEOPLE AROUND HIM IN A WICKED WAY. But it doesn’t have to be like that at all. I know of this other guy, whose name is Terry too, and he asks questions all the time, BUT ONLY AT TIMES, provides the answers to his own question. The difference is, that this Terry does it because he honestly doesn’t know at times and sometimes he is just looking for affirmation about his own conclusions. Same technique with far different outcomes. You say to yourself well, Terry Glenn is loco or nuts for asking questions if he already knows the answer. Your correct it is nuts or loco, but it only REMAINS NOT CRAZY, because people are unaware or ignorant as to why Terry Glenn is posturing the question. So that, you have to see, that ALL CONVERSATION is filled with intent, and intent is invisible, you don’t know right off the bat what that intent is with some people. This explains why the concept of PARANOIA is 100 percent completely logical, but only with respect to people who are filled with evil and trying to be deceptive. It also explains 100 percent the WHY, PEOPLE have to have a conscience. If you don’t have a conscience one cannot discern, between what people are saying something that is GOOD AND what people are saying something that is evil. You say to yourself well your quite sure this Terry Glenn guy must SOMETIMES ask a question which he doesn’t provide the answer for. Well of course he has had those times too, the problems is that it REMAINS WHEN, the timing of the question when he does stuff like that, is when you are not anticipating the thing at all. The conclusion is that, you don’t know when someone like him postures a question wether he is sincere or not. Which explains in large measure why a persons sincerity controls every thing a persons says, and you have to know that with your conscience, or your finished before you even know how to reply. It also explains why the concept of the truth and honesty, are things people cannot get along without. It also explains precisely, why law enforcement officials are so in love with lie detector tests. It’s the only way they have around tricksters hucksters and charalatons, which can get them through all the non sense and lies. It also explains precisely why you have to look out for people like Terry Glenn, because what he is doing is pure evil. It also explains why that other Terry I mentioned to you, is such a valuable person in terms of worth. When a guy like that other Terry is around, you can almost forget everything you ever knew because he doesn’t or wont (at least every hour of the time I have seen) make up tricks and lies about you. The other Terry, really doesn’t have a capacity for being that evil and nasty. Now I am sure that other Terry could do things like that other Terry Glenn guy, but only when he was backed into a corner so awful and bad that he had no other choice. Which is why the bible talks about redeeming the time, for the days are evil. And there is absolutely positively no way around a person like Terry Glenn. WHY? Because all he has to do, to win the day, is ask a question about something at a time when he refuses to get the truthful answer, then hes brilliant for granting people whatever his lie is. He brilliant for it because since everybody knows he knows the solution or answer, he will ask it precisely at the time when nobody is around to provide him with the only truthful answer. This describes precisely the difference between evil and good. Evil can only prosper in the hands of someone who already has in there own head all the possible evil one can find. The painful and difficult thing is, that is the way people like Terry Glenn have always wanted it. They want it that way, the evil way, because it’s the only possible means someone like that has for survival. You know that old saying, A man is pretty much well known by the company he keeps?, never has that saying had more truth to it than when it comes to Terry Glenn. You know Dan, I really think the prospect of you pulling off a mask and surprising everyone with some horns, would NOT work at all for you. That’s right, everybody around these parts pretty much knows that is not what your like. But if you wanna shock us all one time, well, Holloween is just around the corner. But don’t do the Jamie Lee Curtis thing and scare us all too much, I don’t wanna even think of the prospect that your name is Michael Myers or something like that. A few holloweens ago I dressed up like count Dracula. Last Holloween I went and bought a mask from Kmart and walked up to the local bar and had a few drinks. I kind of like Holloween, because it’s the one day of the year, nobody can even know who I am. That way it gives people less to laugh about and ridicule. Cause some people always knows JUST EXACTLY WHAT SOMEONE ELSE IS LIKE, even if they never spent so much as a dime of time trying to get to know them. It’s about being sterotyped. A lot of people sterotyping other people. I think its just an easy and convenient way, to disregard everybody but themselves. The crazy thing is, I think somebody can actually get a hangover, just from thinking about the crazy things somebody else is thinking and saying about somebody else. Then one can become like bent, hell bent, on trying to disprove it all wrong. Oh and Cman, thanks for helping me out. I really didn’t think I overbaked the cookies all that much. What that means is I think the cookies of this thread are at least edible. You know Cman, I have always had an interest in that bible verse in James 3:1 which reads, “My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.” Why on earth would anyone want to be the master, if all it gets someone is condemnation? But I think sometimes this stuff will resolve itself on its own too. Because the bible says pretty much up and down, that God is trying to write his law on peoples hearts, so that the master thing someday will pretty much get tossed away, because people would be behaving on there own the right way. Anyway, Cman, I do so much appreciate your commentary and things you write. Your very poetic and complete about things you believe, I think that is healthy and it certainly looks to me like you have a good grasp on things in this life with a positive outlook and approach. But don’t go around teaching people to much, I wouldn’t want to see people condemning you for it. Which is kind of like why, I pretty much try to stay out of the whole, “ I know more than somebody else racket.” (NO, I am not saying you are like that, you are pretty much just the opposite of that, which is why you don’t have a podium with a football yard of people listening to you.)

Your very welcome Watered Garden, and thank you for your patience in getting me to respond back to you. I hope you had time to read what I wrote to you under the other thread you started about unconfessed sin. Also, God Bless you, and thanks for your enthusiasm, it is gently contagious. peace me

And I don't disagree with this one bit Shellon, in fact I never did. And you are 100 percent correct in that, what anothers experience is, at times the actual facts differ from what we can reasonably know, which is why judgement is best left at the seat of Christ and God. Its always will be, hard to communicate with people if we dont have the facts balanced with the experience that they suggest. But the one thing that is great about people at GS, is that many times, too many people here were bushwacked by people like VPW, and they dont want to repeat the experience, so all in all many people here simply cannot tolerate deceit, because it has damaged them way too much. It provides for a much better dialogue in honesty. Anyway, Shellon, I didn't even want to touch the Watered Garden thing, because I cannot reasonably interpet what someone else's motives are, due in large part to some of the junk that has been going on around of late. Anyway appreciate your reply and thanks for keeping it civil, which is about the only way things ever get resolved for the better anyway. :)