sky4it

song: your comment: I would suggest "Walking On The Water". First session free! Does the class come complete with a life jacket. Please enroll me. I guess the jackpot is all the hiney for free huh? In order to succeed please use some new colloquialisms like: "not since Martin Luther" or "stuff that wasnt made known in the days of Moses" and "completing the revelation of Paul

Geo: your comment: Indeed. That was life in WayWorld, though. God's Word masquerading as a Rubic's Cube. laughing a lot geo. Yeah it was the rubic cube bible. Somehow "the simplicity that was in Christ" was alarmingly complex. Of course, Biblical Research would have straightened that out. Maybe the Apostle Paul had a twin brother who made those comments. One might have to come up with 3 Peters and 4 Johns to cover other "inconsistencies" because of the "inherent accuracy of the life and gospel of VPW"

excath: your comment: are you guys crazy ? don't you think i know what rings true in life ? BIG DEAL I hope you didnt think I was making fun of you. I wasnt trying to. I just found oaks comment to humorous to resist.

George StGeorge: Of course Job, was the one book (and the gospels) that TWI couldnt ever square with what they wanted the doctrine to be. So they said Job simply had to much "fear" instead of "faith" and thats why things collapsed around him. This was one of the biggest doctrinal snowjobs ever.

excath: your comment: yeah but god told him he'd teach him to make brownies like they hadn't been made since.... And that makes you and Apostle excath, ..... well at the very least a prophet. Brownies... made in such a way as they haven't been made since the first century church. It's believable too,,, because they probably never seen a brownie back then.

oak: dmiller: Oldies will no doubt castigate most of us for "renouncing" your brownies based on your sins, while he retains the parts that "make sense" to him. humorous sentence oak oak on the other hand would examine all the ingredients and ask why they should be mixed together, even if you left out the dog poop.

agreed Lindy, I think there can be benefits to fear as well. After doing some soul searching, what is my greatest fear? I would have to say the mouths of people. Interesting that both John the Babtist and Jesus called them a generation of snakes and vipers. What were they refering to? Gossip I think. There are more ways to kill a person than with a gun, you can slowly poison someone to death with your mouth. A man I respect very much once confided in me to his own dismay and said, "Yah know, I just dont understand it in the church, this is wrong and thats wrong, but its just creamy cheese pie to discuss the life and habits of this person over there." I think he spoke volumes that day, to how we can wound people behind there back.

Dan and others: I think this brings up the topic of how the Bible is regarded in other "Christian organizations" as well. It is my view that someone having the TWI experience can more readily appreciate Biblical gymnastics done from other organizations in a self serving way. For other Christian organizations cite scripture to point to there theme's with the same resounding dogma's. In fact, most fundamentalists regard the scripture as unfallible and use it as a steping to build a heirarchial order. This is where the OT , I think can be so very useful, not just for our learning but for our application, for there are numerous illustrations that warn one not to do so. IMO, the Bible certainly is the word of God and infallible. People however are fallible. The bible must be applied. It is therefore in the application of scripture that we must test the applicator, and wether the usage is for the good and benefit of those concerned or are they just making up some "strange brew." When attendance is poor in a fundamentalist church, they often like to cite the passage that says "forsake not the gathering together of the saints" but curiously omit the one in I john that says "you need not that any man should teach you" (I John 2:27) And thus the paradox continues. IMO, this speaks volumes to the problem of people with God as illustrated in Israel's demand for a King, for they would not "have this one rule over them". God, IMO, challenges us to use our minds, skills and talents in an ever increasing way. It makes us uncomfortable to have to dig deeper and work his word in sitations that are very chaotic. It is in the fire, however, that we become better people. Perhaps we should not forget that the baptism was not just of the HS, but also with "fire". Finding a "fearless leader", sometimes pacifies our need for easy stoic answers that really are not answers at all. It is therefore good, that this dilema of application and life's difficulties are forced upon us.

oakspear: thats an incredibly sad story oak. I am somewhat amazed that you indicated that you or "we" were required to have a certain amount of sincerety or trust in things we didnt know. Everyone kind of wanted to give VPW the benefit of the doubt. He seemed like he was trying real hard. I put his doctrine under the magnifying glass right away, picked up 15 credits of Greek at a Lutheran college, and found it woefully lacking. Still, it cost me a lot of time and effort for to dispell what he was saying wasnt simple to do. My own personal experience? Liberation from doctrine, is in my view something everyone needs. Doctrine must assist us in knowledge of God not restrict us. To know not everything, that is good; it keeps my relationship with God fresh.

oldie: God Bless yah man. If we have one consolation, it is that our Lord is stedfast in making us better people. He never stops loving us. :)-->

belle: your comments: I think you (rhetorical) understand the bible to the depth that you are able to and as you mature so does your ability to see the scriptures in different lights and depths. Learning the answer to that comes with time and experience, imo. I think so too Belle. :)--> It's no different than going to school and learning a trade and then going out and applying it. At least thats my opinion. The more you practice "your trade", the better you get at it.

oldie: But didnt Jesus say (and I am paraphrasing) "If any man will to do the will of my father he shall know of the doctrine?" Your comments: Moreover, what if "the holy spirit teaches me" something different than what "the holy spirit teaches you"? Ya see where that leaves us? The fact is oldie, that the holy spirit may well be teaching you something different than he is teaching me. That doesnt have to leave us in contradiction because we are different people. certainly there is common ground. Still, because of our differences, I believe God is big enough to give us all a little different reflection of his glory. Certainly in life we can try and fail with God because we make mistakes and can misapply his word and things. Still, that is the process of learning. (And not ever learning as TWI would leave one to believe) New experiences require new application.You know the Apostle Paul in Phillipians indicated that he strove for that "better perfection." You cant "can" the Bible oldie because we learn along the way. Personally, I think that God would rather have us try to learn more and fail along the way. This is how we learn to apply the word of God. If it were not so Oldie, we would not need an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. With respect to TWI doctrine, you can count that a learning experience also oldie. There are some in here that use it as an excuse to walk away from God. There are some that use it to move on and count it as a part of there knowledge of the Lord. (The expereince I mean) I think the 2nd choice is wise. The problem I had with TWI, oldie, is that I always felt it limited God. You cannot "outgrow" God.

oldie: your comment: TWI always taught that the written word takes the place of the absent Christ. Christ is not here in person, so the bible is here to take his place. We are to respect the bible as treat it as God's Word, just as if Jesus were here speaking it. Doesn't matter who speaks it, it's God's Word. I disagree oldie. The substitue Jesus left behind was the holy spirit, as a guide into all truth. Twi also knew this, because there were many scriptural references which said so. Of course we should respect the Bible, I agree with that. If it doesn't matter who speaks it, then why not rely on every doctrine from every "Christian organization" who quotes it and be thoroughly confused?

coolwaters: your comment: The power of God is in the work of Jesus...in his miracles while he walked in the flesh, in his crucifixion, in his ascension and in his outpouring. Rejecting any part of Jesus' work is rejecting the power of God. TWI rejects the outpouring first and foremost. By teaching that Jesus is absent, twi is rejecting the outpouring. The bible is very clear that Jesus sent the Comforter. I agree. Furthermore, the gospels and writings of Paul and John specifically give reference to the Holy Spirit as bieng our guide into the truth. TWI bieng so biblically oreinted had to be acutely aware of this. TWI's substitute for the HS became there own dogma, agenda and doctrinal "private interpetations" The spirit of this ministry was wacko from the begining. The "Word of God" is sharper than any two edged sword, but to do what? To discern the thoughts and intents of ones heart and seperate between soul (ones self) and spirit (conscience etc) Twi never bought into this concept. They threw the curveball "for our learning" and used the term to throw out valuable application of scripture towards one self. I would make the arguement the leadership did it for there own convience. The scriptures were designed to probe our motives, and assist us in fixing up our lives. They therefore were quilty of the same thing that they accused others of: wrongly dividing the word of God. I agree with your idolatry concept. It is as though they thought the Bible itself was their salvation. Interesting that the Lord ran into the same cult thought with the pharisees, when he indictated to them that they trust in Moses, yet it was Moses that judged them. I think the same thing is applicable to TWI. I also think it was horrible that they threw out the concept of sincerity. Interesting , isnt it, that God has never seemed "sincere" about being a vanguard of this horrible doctrine. I think it says in the Psalms to the just he will show him self just, to the pure he will show himself pure to the unpure he will show himself unpure. To the insincere he will show himself insincere? I think so. This is God's sense of perfect justice.

ckeer: Since I have a college education, early in life I bought the Republican arguement that we are what we are because of choices. Yet after my daughter had leukimia, my view changed dramatically. Certainly choices bear a large portion of what we become, but bumps in the road can alter our plans. Naturally, this has made me more sympathetic towards the poor. Yet, as I study the poor, with many (but certainly not all), I see at times a pattern or lifestyle which is unwilling to act responsibly, making me not so sympathetic at all. True you can sympathize with a lifestyle (such as alcholism, crazy habitual spending or contant marital chaos), but for a lifetime? I think not. lindy: The agenda shift in the last 30 years has been phenomenal. A liberal in the 1950's was someone who believed in rural electricity and interstate highways. danny: agreed, I think there's a boat load of hypocrasy in both parties. Even more alarming is that if you vote for one candidate based on an issue, you feel you have been swindelled because they seem to only have that pos. to get your vote. ie(They do nothing about it) mstar: Go Sox. I think its interesting, that our sense of moral values fits into our political view. This, however, was a arguement that our founding fathers wisely avoided. It's a good thing too, or the state church might have been "The Pilgrim state church" Worse yet, they might have forced us all to be yankee fans.

too gray; nice post: the greatest fear is death, which also will be destroyed. Perfect love , I think, someday will make us perfectly transparent. Yes , fear, is that which binds us. A worthy foe but one to be vanquished.

mstar: congrats to the Sox. Well its 8-1 in the 6th, and I think the lights are going out on the Yanks. Hopefully the Curse of the Bambino will disolve this year. A really great series, the sox never quit. One for the ages is guess.

proberge: belated congrats. Also I think it was noble of you to be of assistance to so many. God Bless yah sky

Democrats: Live immoraly and we will help the poor Republicans: live morally and we will help the rich (mainly themselves and there buddies) Jesse Ventura the independent picked this line: Live immorally & tough luck to yah dig yourself out of your own hole. (The worst of both parties) The best of both parties?: Live moraly, but if you fail we will help you back up. I certainly dont see any candidates with that line. Thoughts?

too gray; your comment: We gotta let truth change – because we are searchers … The DANGER exists when we think we got it figured out!! Your comment says a lot. Open endedness is terrific. Maybe thats why we need to seek and find on the basis of what we need to know. I agree completely.

lindy: It's a circular arguement, to try and disprove God logically. I wont digress. Read Renee DeCartes Proof of the Existance of God, "I think therefore I am", the most logical and mathematical philospher, who elloquently proved it. Otherwise my arguing to your converse is just problematic.

song: your comment: sky4it~~~ do you beiieve the word of god is the will of god~~ ~ and The bridge is faith Like I said earlier, the term in TWI became an oxymoron for what were the interpetations of VPW and his mission- which unarguably left out the holy spirit, our guide into all truth. By the way song, dont get to peaved at me for my post to you under the Job topic, I am just trying to make a point. Faith? What did Jacob possess that Esau did not? Simple interest in God I think. God's promises seemed to have value to him.

song: your comment: is this like a secret message ~~~ like a surprise party .... shhh i have the helium and balloons and confetti AND GOD SAYS OH MY GOD So God needs a party, in order to be appreciated? I think thats stinkin disrepectful song, I really think it is. Noticeably, the first 4 commandments, of which we ever speak little, have to do precisely with this issue; that is our respect of God. Taking God's name in vain? IMO can be taking using his name as a rubber stamp for something that is untrue or for our own benefit, to the consernation of others. And please don't get upset about it, because I am not saying you did that.

lindyhopper: your comment: Love does seem to be something we need, not for survival, but to live the happy lives we are acustom to. I disagree, Lindy. I think we need love for survival. Of course, what one person terms a "happy life" and another person defines a "happy life" are two different things. Still, God's definition of love is one. Perfectly, God doesnt dispute anyones position to define happiness for themselves, hence; people who don't want his love under his definition are free to live without his love; and noticeably absent from his presence. This also fits Gods definition of love; for God doesnt force his will on anyone. He does however; "compell" them to come, for he knows the limitations of his creation-us. Your comment: If there is a god that truly is love, then he/she/it must be much more diverse, much more abstract, much more ambiguous than most Christians/Jews/Muslims paint God to be. I cannot dispute the fact, that God's wisdom may at some point be more encompassing than closed end boxes which religion at some time can be. Neither can I limit, the instrument called the Bible, that it somehow doesnt speak volumes to all of this. Still, I find it unwise and useless to say that I must know all of this and how it works perfectly, in order to believe. Why? Because I am certain of enough. I have the earnest, the down payment, the token. I can't deny that that is truth. Your comment: As far as I can tell, truth is the moment. What we are each experiencing riht now. No wait...NOW. Disagree totally Lindy. Your saying that we have the ability to absorb all the truth. I am limited. God is infinite. I cannot absorb all "truth" today; because I wasnt given the mental accumen with which to do it. The bridge is faith, which allows me trusting in what I can learn tommorrow. Everyone practices faith, Lindy, it just that not everyone practices faith in God. Faith, to me, is simple interest in something or simple respect for someone.

Kit: Thanks Kit, I appreciate that. I also wanted to thank you and Paw, for the GS. It is a refreshing place to be refreshed from the ailments of life. I dont think any of us can walk along without some wounds and bruises. Having spent some years in the Assemblies with the loud praising to the point of verbally raising the roof with it, I suppose I can say that it was beneficial to keep my mind on God, but I think I would have done that anyway. Worship, maybe can be defined in many ways, except that if when your done you dishonor God in your deeds, you certainly havent really "worshiped" him at all. Quiet appreciation of the Lutheran variety, in my opinion, can be just as effective. One thing I noticed about myself , Kit, in the last 10-15 years. It seems that the first symptom of deterioration in my relationship with God, is complaining and "murmering". For complaining is really telling God, look buddy, your messing up with me. Still, I dont think it bothers the Lord at all to look up at him and scream Why God Why. I think there is a fine line between the two. In one, we are seeking for answers to lifes difficulties. In the other, complaining, we are setting out to leave behind the things of God, because we quit believing in his work. It is the area, I think, where we are most tested. I think we need to find the contentment in life in the little things as service to God. Receiving authority and power from God, I suspect, is unlike man's power, for it is always used in service and love to others. I wish and pray that I could be better at learning this lesson. Our Lord, after all, was always a servant first, and thank God he always will be.