TheInvisibleDan

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Originally posted by year2027:

God first

what do you feel deep inside?

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Acute indigestion, at trying to figure out what "trigs" are.

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Originally posted by Zixar:

Look at Matthew 19:17:

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And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

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Two things leap out from this verse. First, if this were any other book, it would be obvious to all that Jesus is correcting the questioner's mistake, yet trinitarians have told me (with a straight face, even) that what Jesus is really doing is affirming that the questioner has correctly indicated him as God.

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The Marcionite version, according to Couchoud's reconstruction,-though not differing much here -reads:

"He said to him, Why do you call me Good?

One alone is Good, God the Father!"

Is it possible that this verse can be construed in the sense of "those who have seen me, have seen the Father"?, rather than as Jesus correcting the questioner?

If Jesus was affirming himself as "Good"

(and therefore God) solely from a position of pride, as you argue, - then what of the latter, -"I'm not Good but God is" - where such a case of extreme modesty would compel one to lie?

Was Jesus not "Good"? This was precisely the epithat given to Jesus by the modalist Marcionites.

Where the Marcionite version does differ is that it is the rich man who cites the commandments back to Jesus -

"I know the commandments:

Do not kill; do not commit adultery, (etc.) -

to which Jesus responded, "One thing is lacking you: all that you have, sell it. Give it away to the poor...."

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Originally posted by def59:

Dan, hey, guess what? We disagree! Isn't America a wonderful place.

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Yes, it still is, Def.

:)-->

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Originally posted by def59:

Smith was rejected because he claimed to have received a new revelation that added a new book to Scripture.

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Hardly solid examples in every case of "rejection" or failure!

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Moon was rejected because he claimed to replace Christ

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If I recall correctly, Moon now runs or owns a newspaper and university or two. What a failure.

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Gnostics were rejected because they claimed Jesus did not come in the flesh (See John's Gospel and letters)

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So hence "John" betrays his actual time and place of his compositions - early second century, when the supposed gnostic threat was quite active. Though some have also argued gnostic elements being present in John's writings, prompting the question, How much "gnosticism" did John reject, -or adopt?

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Papal infallibility was rejected because the Bible says we all sin and come short of the glory of God.

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Millions of Catholics today apparently don't think so.

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The Branch Davidians were rejected because Koresh claimed to be a messiah and he did not rise from the dead.

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Silly me - I had thought our government pretty much contributed to their fiery end.

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Doctrines are accepted or rejected based on its measure to Scripture.

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Yeah, just like it was in twi.

Same crap, different day.

Perhaps they should have suitably called themselves "The Way Biblical Tired Re-tread Society".

What th - You didn't like my post?

I was only trying to be helpful. And the "quick-fix" advice I provided for re-creating the class in the comfort of your own home (though I would add, use early 70s pornographic photos - its the afros that will push the envelope) can be quite an ultra-positive, life-affirming substitute, and could save you a bundle of time and money toward accomplishing the same "experience" derived from taking the actual class.

70s photos featuring naked white people with perm-afros, drooling hunting dogs, and a middle aged preacher trying to look 40 years old wearing a checkered polyester suit will help your spirit attain CF&S Nirvana. And for FREE!

Ya can't "beat" that! ;)-->

:)-->

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Originally posted by FontanaAna:

anybody have a copy??

If so,,can I acquire a copy?? thanks,,God bless!!.........

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Ana, if you receive the one page syllabus to this class, you can easily re-create the magical spirit of the class with the following materials:

1.) a list of slang terms for male and female genitalia ;

2.) a picture of VPW in his 70s incarnation, with sideburns and windblown California hair;

3.) pictures of naked men and women doing it;

4.) a picture of a drooling hunting dog.

With all these things set before your eyes, you'll have CF&S in the nutshell.

To attain the fullest effect, just stare at all this stuff for 20-30 hours, while chanting the mantra, "Beee-yooo-teee-ful" a lot.

And during any breaks you take, be sure to play "Pressed Down" or Joyful Noise, eat raw brocolli and dip, and drink stale coffee from a styrofoam cup.

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Originally posted by Oakspear:

I've always thought it was a fun place to come and play. Of course threads with titles like "_Just For Fun Do You Think That Flying Whales Live Outside The Firmament"_ pop up from time to time.

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Darn, I missed that thread, but I did recently behold a whale falling from outer space in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"....

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Originally posted by Raf:

My problem with JW's was the legalism. My problem with TWI turns out to be the licentiousness.

Best of both worlds.

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From my perspective, I tend to view twi as also having maintained their own distinctive brand of "legalism",

but one which ultimately (strangely enough) supported or accommodated their "licentiousness".

Make no mistake about it - as I recall, there was plenty of "legalism" in twi, though seemingly designed to fuel the "licentiousness" of the leaders. And I think in many cases, they even derived their justification for their legalism right out of the Old Testament (i.e., tithing, Man-of-God, every-woman-belongs-to-the-king,etc.). Wierwille lied when he said that the Gospels belonged to the category of the OT -

in practice the words of Jesus carried even less authority than the Torah. The Gospels might as well have been regarded on the level of apocrypha, fine for some historical bits about Jesus and a couple lessons on "believing", with the teachings of Jesus being almost wholly inapplicable and irrevelant to Christians.

Sticking only to the writings of Paul, devoid of an intimate connection to the "golden rule" sayings of Christ, we also might just as well have been followers of Mithra, standing beneath a grate with the warm blood of bulls being shed upon our heads, or followers of Dionysus babbling in tongues incoherently as evidence of our spirituality.

Danny

When I was in 5th grade, I used to draw comic books featuring giant monsters stomping on my school, with all my least favorite teachers pinned beneath the weight of it's scattered beams.

The school actually existed, so it must have really happened.

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When driving around the vicinity of Norwalk/New Canaan/Westport CT. with my in-laws a few years ago, they would oft point to a small shopping center and exclaim, "That was where the supermarket scenes in The Stepford Wives was shot..." - the original 1975 version.

Likewise several scenes in the new version of "The Stepford Wives" was shot around the same area (New Canaan, Greenwich, NY). It was fun seeing the Merritt Parkway on the screen.

Wish I could provide more insight on the mansions but I'm not from that ritzy part of the state.

The new version ( starring Nicole Kidman, Matthew Broderick, Glenn Close, Christopher Walken, and Jon Lovitz) unlike the serious, suspenseful 1975 version, is obviously a comedy, true to the tone conveyed in the theatrical trailers. I won't give anything away -but I thought it worked well as a comedy.

It was a pleasant Friday night diversion.

Yes indeed, we're all robots in Connecticut. :)-->

*** 3 stars.

Happy Trails.

I don't think the Way's eschatology by itself is as entertaining and complex. Not having really attained within the inner circle of Way initiates, I suppose I can only speak of my own encounters with their "milk" doctrines. The essential eschatology of the Way consisted of the following: we live within the dispensation of grace which commenced on Pentecost, to terminate with our "gathering together" (1 Thess. 4; 1 Cor.15) to Christ (= the "rapture") - the timing of which event is not indicated by any true or false signs, miracles and wonders in the world.

It could happen in a thousand years - or it can before I end typing this. As far as the Book of Revelation and the apocalypses found in the Gospels are concerned, those were regarded as addressed to Israel, as not pertaining to the members of the Church or body of Christ at all. On the grand scale next to the other religions you describe, the Way's eschatology was quite static and not very colorful by comparison.

So any special "prophecies" or "revelations" may have tended to be more the short term, "Dead Zone" type

(as featured in Christopher Walken's hilarious "Trivial Prophet" skit from SNL a few years ago). Or oft pertaining to a "lack of white corpsucles" during prayers of healing someone. Or guessing which devil was giving one a headache.

But grand "prophecies" and predictions regarding a change in the spiritual or Biblical dispensations in which we lived - aside from perhaps some activities I've heard the Way Corp. undergo through a conspiratorial, paranoid take on current political and world events (as described by Geo above) - appear lacking in my view. But I only speak from my own personal viewpoint and experience.

I bet those who were in the Corp. could proivde more colorful experiences.

Danny

I'm so sorry for your loss, Kevin.

You were very blessed to have such a fantastic "big brother".

My sympathies to you and your family.

Danny

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Originally posted by Goey:

A non-trinitarian view of God does not by necessity have to include ultradispensatinalism, make Christ "absent", negate his teachings, or exalt the one teaching such to the status of "lord".

Personally I don't think that Wierwille was intelligent enough or stupid enough to preconceive and implement a dispensational theological system that rejects the Trinity, makes Christ absent, and negates most of Jesus teachings for the sole purpose of being "lord" and able to control and abuse his subjects.

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Goey,

Agreed, though considering how effective these various elements orchestrated together toward eradicating Christ from a supposed Christian organization, might at least give one pause to wonder what "higher powers" were actually at work driving Wierwille, if still entertaining the existence of an unseen, spiritual realm.

But if Wierwille just "fell" upon this stuff, in the manner everything took shape, "the Devil" must be envious (lol).

Danny

The person who wrote this received a degree for it? Shoot, they ought to pass out a few of those degrees to a few writers here, beginning with you, Raf.

:)-->

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Originally posted by Goey:

Discarding a non-Trinitarian view because Wierwille abused women makes about as much sense as replacing the tires on your car because the transmission is leaking.

However where the belief is self-serving it would certainly make suspect any teachings or beliefs that support or hide the self-serving actions of the "teecher". Things like adultery, tithing and the lock box come to mind.

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Why assume that Wierwille's anti-trinitarian (or anti-Jesus-as-God) views - at least in his case - were not (or had not become) "self-serving"?

Such teaching, added to the context of the dispensational view of the gospels "not addressed" to us, and of course, "the absent Christ", combined together, effectively cut Jesus and His teachings out from the picture, and enabled Wierwille to crown himself "lord".

Danny

Excellent post, Cynic.

if Hitler did in fact regard himself as "Christian", it was apparently a more pumped-up, "fighter" distortion of the figure of Jesus - one undoubtably more conformed to Hitler's own image, or idea of Christ.

I've heard over the years that Hitler also devoted himself to odd occult notions, such as the "Hollow Earth" theory, and of his zeal toward acquiring the "sword of destiny," the lance allegedly used to pierce Jesus' side during the crucifixion (though if I am recalling correctly, the historicity of the latter pursuit had been recently disputed).

Danny

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Originally posted by Steve Lortz:

Thanks for the info, Danny!

I have a copy of another book entitled "An Atlas of Fantasy" published back in the '70s. It has copies of some of Burrough's working maps for his various worlds, Oz, Narnia, Middle Earth, Earthsea and a zillion others. I usually keep the two volumes shelved together.

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That sounds like a fun volume.

I'm kicking myself for having gotten rid of a book that my oldest sister gave to me just as I was getting involved with the Way in the late 70s - "The Book of Demons" - which included illustrated drawings for each demon (such as the "gremlin" responsible behind mechanical failures, and invocations for calling them and sending them away). Being a neophyte Christian at the time, my sister's timing in giving me this book was not the best (lol) - but it would be interesting to review today, to compare with Wierwille's own "Advanced Class" catalogue of devils. It had some pretty spooky drawings as I recall.

Danny

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Originally posted by Steve Lortz:

I dug out my copy of Larkin. As it proclaims on the cover, "The Greatest Book on Dispensational Truth in the World". That's the title... not a promo blurb. Typical dispensationalist modesty.

By Clarence Larkin, published by Rev. Clarence Larkin Est., Glenside PA, copyright 1918.

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Steve,

I have a copy of this classic work as well.

I couldn't resist picking this up a few years ago even if only for Larkin's charming, entertaining charts and artwork. I used to have "Rightly Dividing the Word" by Larkin but I gave that work away recently.

While on this subject we ought not overlook the preterist interpretations in circulation during

that era -

http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/index.html#TOP

Danny

Outside of its original Way context, the "Schoenheit Paper" by itself is nothing especially spectacular or controversial.

It's rather kind of dull, actually.

It emphasizes, "Adultery is wrong, ma-kay?"

But to Wayshua's corrupted leadership engaged in fleshly avarice at the time, it was apparently a bombshell. It's too bad the world press missed out on the more scandalous, smaller but nastier breaking stories when concentrating only on Jim Bakker, swaggerin' Jim-what's-his-face and Oral Roberts.

Hitler as a "Christian" (at least as one site would suggest - http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm )

could give Stalin and Mao a run for their money.

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Originally posted by Mister P-Mosh:

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Originally posted by TheInvisibleDan:

I distinctly recall suppressing the overwhelming urge to throw my popcorn and empty drink cup at the screen toward the end of the movie. Not good. Not good at all.

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Which scene? The ice chase?

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No, at the ecologically repentant Dick Cheney, waxing fuzzy about how the 3rd world countries have now taken us in as refugees...yeah right!

The real Dick Cheney most surely would have militarily conquered Mexico first, and then move right into the presidential palace, rather than living in a freakin' tent. And why the heck did the Bush-Gore lookalike president hang out in Washington so long, packing his things with the movers? I would think he would have been the first at the presidential palace in Mexico (if not at least as far as Texas, away from the oncoming "Ice-a-raptors"), ahead of Cheney.

You have a copy of the original "Gojira"?

Cool! Unfortunately I only have the Americanized Raymond Burr version. Can't wait to see the original.

Danny

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Originally posted by Steve Lortz:

Now, I'm thinking about watching it and drawing comparisons between "Day After Tomorrow" and first century Jewish apocalyses, analyzing the movie as a 21st century ecological apocalyptic. But it's not at the top of my priority list.

Love,

Steve

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That sounds like an interesting project, Steve.

It seems that for awhile, there were numerous movies about meteors and comets slamming into the earth as well (i.e., "Sudden Impact", "Armegeddon"). It may be worth revisiting a few classics as well, like "When Worlds Collide", except in those type of scenarios, mankind didn't necessarily do anything to have incurred an ecological "wrath from heaven"...actually, when I think about, such movies of mankind dealing with their ecological "sins" seemed plentiful in the 70s, ("Day of the Animals") though even the classic "Godzilla" and "The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms" (and other gargantuous creatures thereafter) during the 50s trace their unleashing to the testing of atomic bombs.

BTW, the original 1953 Japanese version of "Godzilla" (without Raymond Burr, with about 40 extra minutes of footage) is being shown in American theaters this summer. That's a flick I would love to see. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were still fresh in the minds of the Japanese at that time. The story was also partly inspired by radiation sickness having occurred among the Japanese crew of the fishing trawler, "The Lucky Dragon", which strayed through the waters of the Bikini Islands where Americans had been testing hydrogen bombs.

Danny

I distinctly recall suppressing the overwhelming urge to throw my popcorn and empty drink cup at the screen toward the end of the movie. Not good. Not good at all.