TheInvisibleDan

See? You're not alone.

There's a wealth of excellent, loving insight and advice here.

Danny

quote:

---

Originally posted by HAPe4me:

Dan- our friend has a business (plumbing) which his son is currently running in the interim. Perhaps this may qualify for the job when he gets his prosthesis and can participate in it again?

---

HAPe4me-

It sounds to me as if your friend Robert more-than-qualifies for receiving help from the Department of Rebab Services in his state.

In the plumbing business, he obviously needs a prosthesis in order to work. Also, being in the tougher situation where he lost his leg (in contrast to it being a birth defect, like in my situation), Robert will most likely require some additional help learning to walk again with his new prosthesis. But they've made many advances in the field of prosthesis-building, since 1977 when I obtained my last prosthesis.

Robert (or a friend or family member) needs to begin by giving their state social services a call (ask for "The Department of Rehabilitation Services), make an appointment and explain the situation to them, to find out what kind of help they offer. Also, they will require copies of any relevant medical records.

I appreciate all your loving prayers, but I can at least get by with a little more duct tape. :)-->

Robert's situation sounds far more urgent and requires the focus of our love and energies.

Danny

I am also in need of a new prosthesis, which my medical insurance will only cover $1500 of the $8000 it adds up to.

Your friend will want to contact the Department of Rehabilitation Services in the state that he lives. They offer to pay for the remainder of the costs with the stipulation that your friend must find work first. Which can be a catch-22.

Maybe he will luck out and the state in which he lives varies on this policy.

There are many prothesis makers in business throughout the country, such as Hanger Prosthetics. They have many "branches".

You can find them and others on the web.

My best wishes to your friend.

Danny

Yes, Zixar is correct.

I described the way my Nero software functioned rather the type of blank cd. Sorry.

Danny

"Music" is generally for making cds act like any other music cd (and at about the same length -70-80 minutes, 650-750 MB), that can be played in most cd players; data, on the other hand, is for the storage of any kind of file (music, texts, programs), files that one might back up when cleaning off one's hard-drive.

However, if you're burning mp3s, and want to keep them in the mp3 format and get a few hours out of one cd, pick "data".

I know I'm able to play my "data" mp3 cds on my dvd player. Or even in the pc cdrom player.

But if you choose the "music" option (I'm guessing you're using Nero?) for burning mp3s on a cd, your mp3s will be converted to wav/cd files, and you'll get 70-80 minutes worth of stuff on a cd.

Someone else can probably offer a more technical explanation.

Danny

Thank you, Socks. I'm glad you enjoyed the links.

I've been toying with a hypothesis the past couple of years that Christianity may have started out or developed into a religion primarily of ancient seafarers. In the same sense that the contemporary movement of Mithraism was popular amongst soldiers.

It certainly might offer one possibility how it spread so widely and rapidly throughout the then known world. I'm speculating that sailors found the gospel quite appealing, considering that Jesus chose to make disciples out of fishermen, of all professions. Something they strongly identified with. I can only imagine that amidst violent storms, seafarers found great comfort in the tale of Jesus stilling the storm.

Danny

[This message was edited by TheInvisibleDan on December 03, 2003 at 21:37.]

Here are a couple links that might be of great interest here, while on the subject of the cross and Christian symbols:

http://www.bright.net/~gray0013/symbols/symbols.html

http://home.rochester.rr.com/gocek/images/christn/

I find the early Christian mariner symbols

( e.g., the cross depicted as an anchor, the church as a ship) to be particularly fascinating.

Danny

If you're really into enjoying some "bad" (or even psychotic) Santas", or just to take a break from a possible overdose of holiday cheer, check out "Christmas Evil" (a.k.a. "Terror in Toyland") released in the early 80s. The Toma productions dvd (with an peculiar audio commentary by the disgruntled independent film director) was pretty cheap. But it's a damn good campy movie and overall entertaining experience, with a cool, dissonant Christmas soundtrack (crank up the stereo!).

It belongs up there with "It's a Wonderful Life" as one of my favorite holiday "classics".

Danny

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kit Sober:

Snow on the pumps! Such an important date.

I thought we had a graphic artist create a picture of this.

Was it WayDale or Greasespot I that had a great thread on this subject.

Hope someone has it they can repost it.

http://www.members.aol.com/kitsober/angelkit.gif Kit Sober

Jesus loves you Oh so much!

_"I love you :)-->," God_

---

Testing, testing...

With the notable exception of the older, brilliant "Grinch" cartoon (what could the 2 hour, long-winded Jim Carrey/Ron Howard abortion that came out a couple years ago accomplish, that the old 25 minute cartoon couldn't?) , Dr. Suess absolutely sucks in the live action format.

And how long does it take to read the original "Cat in the Hat" - 5 minutes?

With Dr.Suess pushing up daisies, naturally they have to hire a team of no-talent writers to come up with superfluous garbage to pad the original short story, and to kill an hour and a half.

What a waste of money - and time.

Danny

If they rejected the "symbol" of the cross of Christ, it appears, at least to me, that a considerable amount of the "substance" of the cross of Christ was rejected/ignored/disrespected/ridiculed as well. If not tracable to Wierwille's writings, it certainly - and somehow - came out in a considerable amount of rotten "fruit", so to speak.

The creation of a new humanity (via the blood of the cross - Eph.2:14f), whereof all members of the body of Christ are equal, regardless of earthly race/gender/social standing - how did that translate into the structure of the Way organization, divided and subdivided as it was into the various leadership/overlord/school categories?

(BTW, I don't only have a bone to pick with the Way in this regard). This alone is far from exhibiting or reflecting an especial appreciation and deep understanding in the meaning of the cross of Christ.

The abolishment of the Old Testament? We went half the way with this ("things written beforehand for our learning"), but never really entirely let go the old leaven of the Old Testament (e.g., from the fear and retribution of tithing, the (written or unwritten)exaltation of a "man of God", the increase of legalism that cripples the group even more so to this day).

The abolishment of all hostile angelic powers (attributed to the cross by Paul) - VP was almost there, but he prematurely assumed that only "devil spirits" were the "archons" in 1 Cor.2:6-8; in other words, we knew everything about the weakest classes of angels (comparitively speaking), but apparently had little next to no inkling of the type of angelic powers Paul was actually speaking of here - namely, those angelic powers that served as enforcing overseers to the OT law (Gal.4, Col.2).

And finally, it's unfortunate that the Way apparently took little advantage of its own Aramaic studies, for in Eph.2:15b, in association with the cross, it reads (as have Tertullian and St.Ephraem also cited these passages) "...and the law of commandments by His commandments [= the commandments of Christ] he abolished, that from the both of them he might create one new man..."

One might ask, what were the "commandments" of Christ? Somehow the sayings of Jesus were viewed, even from the vantage point of the cross, as having comprised the "new commandments" which replaced the abolished Old Testament.

Early Christians oft interpreted the "maxims" or "precepts" of Jesus as having comprised or included His sayings uttered on the Sermon on the mount, the new law of Christ for all christians to abide by. Precepts on how to treat other fellow human beings.

But rather than treat the sayings of Jesus as also suggested in their importance in the meaning of the cross of Christ, - we relegated them (those contained in the gospels) to the same ineffective status of the Old Testament commandments(!).

Wierwille would not need to have worried about losing his ministry to "license" had he known that the sayings of Jesus were the "new commandments" for Christians to live in accordance with, instead of construing and abusing the idea of "grace" as some period of a free-for-all orgy-rama.

Merely from my observations of the attestation of experiences expressed throughout this forum, I don't think it "pure folly" that the Way missed the boat somewhere concerning the meaning of the cross.

I submit that GS would not exist here today had the Way grasped and appreciated a fuller understanding of the cross of Christ. It's obvious to at least myself that a lot was missed. Which is unfortunate.

Danny

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldiesman:

Yes, TWI ridiculed and disrespected the wooden/silver cross. But that's not what was said from the get go...

quote:

---

Have you reconsidered the twi position of ignoring or ridiculing and rejecting respect for the cross of Christ?

---

TWI never ignored or ridiculed or rejected the cross of Christ.

Perhaps I am missing something. Are you saying that the original meaning of Kit Sober's words "the cross of Christ" meant she was talking about the wooden/silver cross?

If that's true, then one may also believe that a person cannot respect or admire the cross Christ bore without having a symbol around one's neck to prove it...

---

But the converse of that - if I'm recalling correctly, even if vaguely at the moment - is that the wood/gold/silver/plastic crosses were viewed in the category of a "religious" symbol -

and being a symbol of religion - had no place in the mindset that "true Christianity is not a religion". I think amidst our religious-like zeal in accepting the idea of "true" Christianity was "not a religion", led to an attitude of rejecting a number of symbols traditionally associated with what was oft referred as "Christen-dumb". Which is understandable in certain respects, but we obviously overreacted in others. The symbol of the cross being one of the casualties.

Don't you remember the mockery in circulation, "If Jesus died in an electric chair, would we wear electric chairs around our necks?" How many folks do you think were motivated from this sort of expression of attitude to wear a cross? If they did they most likely kept it under their shirts.

But such was instilled in us - the cross is a symbol of execution, of death. I think we were second only to vampires in our abhorrance of it.

After all, anyone subscribing to "true" Christianity ought to rather exalt the "resurrection" or "Pentecost"!

Am I making all this up? Is this only my unique recollection and impression of the attitude that prevailed amongst us at the time (up to '87)? or was I dreaming all of this up?

Danny

[This message was edited by TheInvisibleDan on November 27, 2003 at 3:34.]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ex10:

My own personal opinion, is that when VP removed the cross from all the phsysical locations of TWI, he also removed the cross, from his message. Thus allowing the proliferation of sin in his "ministry."

---

Whoa!

That's my imperfect way of trying to convey

that this is a profound insight, ex-10.

Thank you. And to Kit and to all of the other contributors on this thread.

Danny

"Get busy living, or get busy dying."

-Shawshank Redemption 4:12

I don't recall hearing anything, - in fact, I must have been completely oblivious to everything in the news, being only 3 years old at the time.

JFK -who? I imagine I only wanted to watch cartoons while pooping my pants.

But my older brother still recalls seeing Oswald get shot on live TV.

Danny

I find it very interesting, from my own learning many years later, that the cross of Christ forms the very basis for "the mystery" taught by Paul.

Paul attributes the very creation of a "new humanity" - wherein all members are equal and there is no distinction or division according to race, gender or social position - not to the resurrection, not to Pentecost - but to the cross (Eph.2:14ff). This was the event that put all these things into effect, along with the abolishment of the Law and the worldly angelic powers which administered and enforced it. All these things are attributed by Paul to the cross.

I always felt there was something critically lacking in the way the Way taught the mystery, a fact which I think is especially reflected in their interpretation that Paul only preached the "mystery" of the cross

(1 Cor.2:1f) to Corinthians supposedly because they were too "spiritually immature" to understand truths relating to the "resurrection" (does anyone else recall this teaching?)- In other words, issues relative to the cross were intended for immature nitwits, while the "meat" of the resurrection for the fully initiated. Which interpretation is total nonsense.

Danny

He's so clean.

That strikes me as a good possibility, Jerry.

Danny

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jbarrax:

Thanks for the clarification Dan. Your input is always invaluable.

JerryB

---

Thank you for your post, which woke my brain up to some of the gnostic trivia kickin' about.

Zix, Aside from a few faint ideas, I haven't figured out Morpheus yet. It's probably right beneath my nose.

I need to go see the third movie. There's a good excuse to go see it.

Danny

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jbarrax:

This may be a really long stretch, but it reminds me of Gnosticism. One of the more controversial tenets of Gnosticism is that the "God" of the Old Testament is actually Lucifer, and the Father of Jesus Christ, the Creator, is the true and Supreme God. The Gnostic version of Geneiss presents Lucifer as one who thinks he's the supreme being until confronted by the true God. I think perhaps the Architect is the Warchowski Bros. version of the Gnostic Lucifer (after all, he does have all of humanity in prison) and "The Source", who helps Neo free mankind is the True God. I think the fact that the only ones who get out of the Matrix are those who want out is also a nifty parallel to Christianity. "Whosoever will may come" or something like that.

---

No, it's not a stretch at all. From the first movie, the ideas throughout (from Neo receiving his "call" to "waking up" from the worldly stupor and all its illusions; of humans being used by the machines for power, cf. the sparks of the divine being trapped and held captive in the world and its angelic overseers) are excellent illustrations of the themes in Christian-gnosticism. A decent introduction and review for gnostic themes can be found in "The Gnostic Religion" by Hans Jonas. He does an excellent job in providing an overview of the various ideas common amongst the gnostic movements.

I would be more tempted, perhaps, to associate the "Architect" with the creator "demiurge" or atificer - not necessarily Lucifer. Lucifer and the creator-demiurge of the OT were oft viewed in gnostic movements as two distinctive entities. Though I have encountered the opinion of at least one writer, Joseph Turmel, who proposed that if anyone identified the OT creator-god with Lucifer, it was the author of the gospel of John. But outside of that, many gnostics maintained the distinction between the two.

Until I see the third Matrix installment, just from what I've gathered here so far, I wonder if Agent Smith wouldn't fit the "Lucifer" role better, though this may be premature on my part.

Danny

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rafael 1969: I guess Leonard believes Hitler should have stopped at 3 million Jews. I don't know. Hitler: God's Avenger.

Sick.

---

Rafael,

Which Leonard work is that bizarre stuff from?

Thanks.

Danny

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rafael 1969:

Publishing the bibliography separately was one of TWI's most perplexing moves.

---

That is very bizarre.

I see on p.177 that "428 other books are in a bibliography. If you would like a copy of this, please write..."

(lol) I wonder if they would still send me this bibliography if I requested it...

Harve?

Danny

That's a good point, Zix.

There certainly would appear to be a pattern of less plagiarism (or more creative plagiarism) in the later works like JCOP and JCOPS, when he got the teams working on all that stuff. But I wonder - did he have a together-enough, active "research" team back in 1975 (or earlier), when he put together JCING?

Well let me then just add this question to the mix, for anyone who might passing by this thread: are there any former researchers, or "team members" here, who worked on a prepress manuscript of "Jesus Christ is Not God?" Please, please, please - share your experiences.

Danny

Rafael -

As I recall, those definitions were almost identical. Which all the more provokes me to wonder what VPW's primary source was behind JCING. Did he copy/cobble entire passages from another work, as was his custom?

It would be a hoot to find out what that work was. Perhaps one also needs to examine the sources that influenced Leonard.

Maybe on Leonard's and VP's shelves was a book by some unknown unitarian author (published or unpublished).

Danny

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rafael 1969:

Interesting question.

---

And that was a most fascinating response from you, Sir Rafael! Thank you. For some reason I wasn't expecting B.G. Leonard to come up as an influence in this, but now that you've mentioned it, I shouldn't be surpised.

I apparently need to pick up some more of Leonard's writings and acquaint myself better with his ideas.

I have Stile's book wherein the Holy Spirit is spoken of as a being or a person, but I hadn't really delved into Leonard's view here. The only thing I have by Leonard is a poor photocopy of one of his courses (containing many familiar "Advanced Class" meanings to the spiritual gifts) that was going around circ. 1987, when many leaving the Way had taken especial interest in reviewing the VP's "originals".

Danny