Free Soul

I totally get the biblical story about how Lucifer became "the devil". But, it's not like this happened & God said, "Oh crap, wish I'd seen that coming".

Sogwap said- If you own a dog that becomes rabid you have the tell-tail signs. Why would you let it out the door??? Rabid dogs show signs that are very apparent. The dog would probably bite you before you ever let it out. Yes, the rabid dog scenario is an analogy; the dog being the devil. So, indeed, why was he "let out the door"? It certainly would have been known beforehand what the outcome was going to be.

GreasyTech, you're asking the same question I keep asking. If I own a dog & he becomes rabid, & I let him out the front door anyway where he bites & hurts, even kills, my neighbors.....I am responsible.

I am willing to listen........

So it's been a set-up from the very start; some win, some lose. I've never liked the idea of many being made sinners bec. of someone else's mistake - it's kind of like everyone getting lunch detention bec. one kid was talking. However, I just now connected the idea that the converse of this is that we all got a free pass bec. one person obeyed. That's not new knowledge to me; it's that it says "many were made sinners", and we know that means all were made sinners. So it seems "shall many be made righteous" would also mean all. So maybe some don't lose after all? Being made a sinner wasn't conditional; we were just stuck with it. So being made righteous shouldn't be conditional, either. Whoa, my brain hurts

:blink: Sorry, but I don't get this at all.

So there is no longer a curse that we are born under? All of us since Christ were born curse-free? I thought that was the whole reason we needed a savior. I thought that was why we had to make that big, all-encompassing decision of whether to accept Christ as our savior or not. Also, I don't think that it's that God didn't like what he had made or done. I have a problem with that blanketing of sin that we "got" because Eve & Adam screwed up.

The condemnation and curse exist because of the disobedience of Adam & Eve, who were deceived by the devil, whom God created! It's crazy & circular. I cannot look in the face of an infant, or a small child, & see cursedness.

Our entire school district uses Love & Logic as the discipline plan. It's the Helicopter parents who drive us crazy by refusing to allow their kids to be accountable for their poor choices.

IF I actually wanted a man in my life again (which I don't), then he would have to - a) have a job b) not live with his mommy As it is, I am content in my singleness - it's a lot less hassle & I can do whatever I want.

I'm thinking there would be a God even without man, since at one time that's how it was. If I'm understanding scripture correctly, Lucifer existed before us as well. I don't believe that WE are the reason for their existence, though. I don't care to focus on the devil; I just want to know why a loving God would create such a creature. It's not like he didn't know what was going to happen next. Good vs. evil is the overriding context of the bible, with good being triumphant (but at what cost). If evil had to exist for good to be appreciated, then why not just have neither? No good, no evil, no us. We wouldn't miss it, having never existed. Since we do exist, we get to suffer, & that's where I question the "love of God". Trials that build faith is one thing - terror & suffering of innocents is another, even if their parents are unbelievers. I did read the entire thread called The Devil that Lindy referenced. It gave me some things to ponder, mostly the idea that there may not be a literal devil at all, but rather our own rebellion against God. Many believe in a literal devil, though. I just don't know.

Cman - "For therein is the devil" - what the he** does that mean? Are you saying that mankind is the devil? The devil is us? This isn't scriptural. And what is all that about riddles? On second thought, don't respond, since nothing you have said has blessed or enlightened me. I'm really sad that you feel like you have to be so arrogant & taunting. Lindy, thank you for the link - I will take a look at it now. Happy New Year!

Cman, do you realize how superior & elitist you sound? Perhaps that's not your intent, but you sure come off that way. So, do YOU know why God created the devil? Do you have an answer that makes sense & doesn't insult my intelligence? And please, try not to talk down to me; I would appreciate that. If you don't have an answer, just say so; it's okay to not know.

So belief in God & the bible isn't about getting answers It's about resignation and being able to talk all around a topic while not being helpful at all and the other person feeling deficient in the face of such spirituality Sounds like TWI-101 to me.

Exactly! "They" cannot answer questions definitively - only God himself can. If something is not already addressed in scripture, then one can certainly go to God and ask for help with whatever is the stumbling point. Suppose, though, that one has already done this, many times, on one's knees with tears and humility, and still no answer at all. So discouraging. Even my grandson knows he can run to grandma with anything & receive love, answers, comfort, whatever. But I'm not greater than God - hardly! So why can't he make sense of himself? I think it's asking too much to just have faith in something that makes no sense.

And another thought, to piggyback on Garth's post: if we do not believe & follow to the letter, not only is it a grave immoral act (his words), but we will also go to (gasp) - HELL! Nothing like free choice, esp. in a do or die set-up like that. I've realized that the more I think I know, the less I know. I no longer "know that I know that I know", in fact, I didn't then, since it was cult full of holes anyway. So I've let go of the idea that God makes sense, or that he's interested in my life. And that is what "THEY" can't answer - why does the God who supposedly loves us not protect us, or warn us, or nudge us, away from harm? He does NOTHING, & we attribute it to free choice.

Garth, I get you, man. Sushi, thanks for the laugh - & yes I do laugh, mostly when my precious grandson does something hilarious, which is often. He can say the most innocent, crazy things! Allan, the only reason the 2 children would be "ratbags" is bec. they became that way, not bec. they were born that way. Either the world messes them up, which is Lucifer's doing, or it's bec. of that nasty sin nature, also due to Lucifer. Either way, his existence is what brought about their "ratbagginess", so to speak. So we're screwed either way.

I'm afraid we may be derailing Nandon's intended thread here. This question has bothered me for years, & it's not about good/evil, light/dark, or being accountable. I've been told that evil must exist in order to know & appreciate good. What a load of crap. I want to know why we are here AT ALL, when our existence was & is not mandatory. What is the f***ing point of putting humans through all this pain, grief, death? So God could have a family???? How sweet. Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather just not have existed at all. And it's not like my life is so horrible; I think about what's going on in Darfur with children being snatched from their mothers & killed, or even just thinking about any kid here in America that's getting beaten bloody by a parent, living in fear, & growing up to continue the cycle. God knew these atrocities were going to happen. He knew!!!! But he created Lucifer anyway. He created us anyway. Oh, but the glories of Heaven will be soooo worth it! Really? What kind of sicko dangles a carrot like that? "Here, I'm going to allow you to experience all kinds of s**t while you're alive, & if you got "born again" somewhere in there, you get to come to heaven & fly around & tell Me how great I am for eternity!! Woo Hoo!!" Of course, that's supposing the bible is correct. But what if it isn't & we arrogant Americans have it all wrong? I don't trust him, I don't trust anybody, & I'm tired of the sugar-coated spin that is religion. Nobody has answers, but every group thinks they're right. The bottom line for me is, even my most sublime, sweetest moments in this life are not worth the pain & horrors that happen every moment.

"They" being ALL of the above cannot answer..... Why God, having foreknowledge and no darkness in him at all, would create Lucifer to begin with, knowing full well that Lucifer would rebel and fall from grace, and wreak havoc on the human race from that point on. Was it worth it? I think not.

Yes, he has a way of getting to me; my other favorite is Goodbye My Lover, although that doesn't fit as a theme for me, but the lyrics still grab my heart. I didn't know who he was until about 3 mos. ago, & then found out he'd just done a show at Nokia. Aaaaacckk! Next time he comes through I'm going by golly.

How I wish I could surrender my soul; Shed the clothes that become my skin; See the liar that burns within my needing. How I wish I'd chosen darkness from cold. How I wish I had screamed out loud, Instead I've found no meaning. I guess it's time I run far, far away; find comfort in pain, All pleasure's the same: it just keeps me from trouble. Hides my true shape, like Dorian Gray. I've heard what they say, but I'm not here for trouble. It's more than just words: it's just tears and rain. How I wish I could walk through the doors of my mind; Hold memory close at hand, Help me understand the years. How I wish I could choose between Heaven and Hell. How I wish I would save my soul. I'm so cold from fear. I guess it's time I run far, far away; find comfort in pain, All pleasure's the same: it just keeps me from trouble. Hides my true shape, like Dorian Gray. I've heard what they say, but I'm not here for trouble. Far, far away; find comfort in pain. All pleasure's the same: it just keeps me from trouble. It's more than just words: it's just tears and rain. Tears and Rain James Blunt

Uh, oh....I'll plead the fifth on that question. Must remain behind cloak of invisibility.............

Married 4 times, divorced 4 times - the last 3 were "believers", that would be the 1) chronic liar, 2) narcissistic crazy person, & 3) mama's boy looking for a sugar mama. In retrospect, I should have stayed with the first one. Of course, I am not exempt in this dysfunctional scenario. I was the common element, after all! As of now, I am happily single & intend to stay that way until I draw my last breath. And no, I don't think all believers are crazy, just the ones I attract.

my electric bill filling my gas tank having too much to do after work & little energy dogs that bark all the time nagging guilt because I don't go to church arrogant people people who act like martyrs my shrinking summer vacation due to presentation commitments

"Always" - Holly Hunter & Richard Dreyfuss "Bed of Roses" - Christian Slater "Sense and Sensibility" - Emma Thompson