doojable

Thanks Mark, I figured that there would be some resistance. I'm not of the mindset that to forgive is to allow the wrongdoer access to my life. Once trust is lost it has to be rebuilt - that is a separate issue. In fact Yancy addresses this issue - I'll have to find the quote. He actually says that it can be dangerous to embrace the abuser specifically because it can set the cycle in motion again. I don't see any point in being an apologist for an accuser - each person is responsible for his or her own actions - if I was taught to do some things that were wrong I'd still be responsible to repent either once I learned it once wrong - OR if I found that my actions hurt someone. I don't know how many times I have asked forgiveness simply because while I was doing what I believed to be the right thing I inadvertenly hurt another's feelings. I know ther are verses that tell us not to live in the past - that certainly doesn't mean that we are not to learn from the past. Thanks for your input.

Mark, Thanks for the input. I put this in the doctrinal category because I felt that it would be moved there anyway. Afterall, the "Once and For All..." thread was moved here..... Anyway, I am surprised that this is all we have to say on the matter.

Ok try this: http://www.kornyewest.com/

Now, now - let's not get texas into this! LCM was Oklahoma's mistake.

Wow!! Digi! These are amazing! Did you do the cake as well? It occured to me how expensive flowers must be up in your neck of the woods. And arent' those orchids in the arrangement? I am truly impressed. I wish you lived closer so that I could get you to help me with some arrangements in my house. Oh well = I'll just have to dream... Dooj

For anyone interested - I found out how you can see more of my work. Go to www.kornyewest.com then click on "Directory" then click on "Figural" You will recognize the painting I use as My avatar. From there you will see a lot of my work. Most of those pieces have sold by now - I'm assuming the gallery is updating the new arrivals fo reach artist. Anyway, this thread is great! Thanks for participating

Digi, I have painted several blondes. My daughters happen to have light brown hair - and they are the most available models. My first set of commissioned portraits were of 3 children - the youngest had blonde hair. I think that dark hair offers a dark background for the face. I don't have that prejudice - but some might, just because of the design element. My main desire is to really utilize strong sunlight and cast shadows to make the design. I just paint whoever and whenever I can. With me teaching so much lately the time is very hard to find - I have a few paintings I want to do soon. I work from slides when I can't get a model to sit for me. This allows me to blow up the image to life size. It's not the same as a live model, but very few people have the time to sit for me - and modeling fees can really add up.

Digi? The name of the gallery is Galerie Kornye West. Their cite is www.kornyewest.com I'm getting back to work now - so I'll be posting less often. It has been so nice to see all this art. I'll post more as soon as I can. dooj

You make a good point Ex. I guess we all have to deal with what our individual definition of forgiveness is. For me it used to mean saying in my soul, "That's all right. No problem." in that case - NO! forgiveness is not in order - nothing they did was right when it came to sexual abuses and marriage break-ups etc. On the other hand, I feel like forgiveness is saying, "You're God's problem now. I'm not going to worry about it or re hash it for even another second, I'm done! Go and live your life."

I don't sign stuff that I haven't come up with. I don't paint portraits from pictures that people give me. It's just what I prefer to do. Given that my work is in a gallery I don't ever want someone coming up and saying that I stole their image. Even if it would win in court it would hurt me as an artist. Besides, I really can only paint things that I am excited about. About the copying of the piece on the wall. I guess that you have to decide for yourself. What is your exposure? (and the wall's?) You don't plan on making prints of the wall and selling them as your own work - so there's really no harm (I'm not sure about legally - but I think the point is mute since it's unlikely that the original artist will walk into that room and see his or her image with your signature on it If you want to make sure that the client wants to remember you for future jobs, but you don't want to sign it, you can hand out some business cards.

Ok Ckeer, I see your point. However I am not trying to instigate a healing relationship between people. Certainly God has provided a way for the one that is harmed to free him or herself from the anger and guilt and shame of waiting for another to ask for forgiveness. Isn't it possible for an injured party to forgive another w/o the other person asking for forgiveness? Sure, it won't benefit the person who is supposed to repent - but it will still give the injured party a way out. GOD"S forgiveness will depend on on the repentance of the person who has done the wrong. Now the burden shifts away from two people and instead now the offender has to deal with God. I know it does anyway, but let me illustrate it with a personal story. ( But i'll make it very short.) I have mentioned on another thread that a leader tried to get physical with me. Because I believed that I should not tell anyone else until I confronted that leader personally, I waited until I felt able to go through what I expected to be a "he said -she said " scenario. ( I was working on the verse that if a brother offends you you should go to that brother alone first.) Once confronted I was poo-pooed and told I was: 1. Misinterpreting things and 2. it simply didn't happen. I didn't let it go but no admission or request for forgiveness was made. Later that year I became aware of this leader's sexual exploits with many others in the area. He told lies about me and made me out to be immature to all my friends. In the end they avoided me because he convinced them that I wanted nothing to do with them. It took me years - but I eventually chose to forgive this person. He has never repented. I don't care. The way I figure it he still has to deal with the Almighty and He's a much more formidable force to deal with. I still don't trust this person. I find it hard to believe that I ever will. I also know that I willnever see this person again - there is no future friendship on the horizon. At this point forgiveness only benefits me. I haven't called him and told him I have forgiven him - I just simply let it go. BTW, this person was classic at exploiting the fact that he knew that I would do the "right thing." He put me in positions like that over and over again for years. he would screw something up and I would cover because I felt that ultimately I was serving God - not him. (And no - I never covered his a$$ in matters that were unGodly.) I'm not unaware of this trick. I also know that God sees all. In the end - this man has his reward. Besides, even if he called me and asked for forgiveness I would doubt his motives - it is much easier to make this something between God and me( my forgiving) - then God and him(his repentance.) This cycle we talk about - don't we have to keep God in the equation?

I will add that in another part of the book Yancy says that forgiveness does NOT require that one forget the wrong. On the contrary, he says that in order to forgive the wrong must be remembered. Now, I'm not saying that this is all right just its in a book. It just seems to make sense to me. It has informed my day to day actions and allows me to conduct myself in a way that I feel is more Christian. I know that I didn't post any scripture. I have had many Christians tell me that I had to forgive or else find myself bound to that person. Why would I want to be bound to a person who wronged me? I read the writings of Corrie Ten Boom - and I see such grace in how she treated a German officer that she met later on - even tho she wanted to hate him. Actually, the book is about grace and makes a good case that Christians, a groupthat shold be known for their grace, are often the most legalistic, judgemental group on the planet. And yet they/we wonder why people can hate them/us so. This is not a TWI issue alone. Christians as a whole have to deal with this. TWI is not the only "church" (i use the term loosely here) that has to deal with child molestation, or sexual predators, or murderers. TWI is the group we have in common - but this is a bigger issue. I certainly don't have all the answers - in fact I have more questions than answers...

Ok I want to start a thread that discusse forgiveness. I am starting it with a rather long quote by Philip Yancy's What's so Amazing About Grace" I want to also make clear that I in no way want to offend those who have been hurt by leaders in TWI. I just want to get a good solid discussion about forgiveness going. I believe that this is a vital element in our healing and moving on. Dooj Quotes might take more than one post so be patient.... Ok here goes The scandal of forgiveness confronts anyone who agrees to a moral cease-fire just because someone says,”I’m sorry.” When I feel wronged, I can contrive a hundred reasons against forgiveness, He needs to learn a lesson. I don’t want to encourage irresponsible behavior. I’ll let her stew for a while; it will do her good. She needs to learn that actions have consequences. I was the wronged party – it’s not up to me to make the first move. How can I forgive if he’s not even sorry? I marshal my arguments until something happens to wear down my resistance. When I finally soften to the point of granting forgiveness, it seems a capitulation, a leap from hard logic to mushy sentiment. Why do I ever make such a leap? I have already mentioned one facto that motivates me as a Christian: I am commanded to, as the child of a father who forgives. But Christians have no monopoly on forgiveness. Why do any of us, Christian or unbeliever alike, choose this unnatural act? I can identify at least three pragmatic reasons, and the more I ponder these reasons for forgiveness, the more I recognize in them a logic that seems not only “hard” but foundational.” (page 96 – italics as per author) “First, forgiveness alone can halt the cycle of blame and pain, breaking the chain of ungrace. In the New Testament the most common Greek word for forgiveness means, literally, to hurl away, to free yourself. I readily admit that forgiveness is unfair. Hinduism, with its doctrine of karma, provides a far more satisfying sense of fairness. Hindu scholars have calculated with mathematical precision how long it may take for one person’s justice to work itself out: for punishment to balance out all my wrongs in this life and future lives, 6,800,000 incarnations should suffice.” “The word resentment expresses what happens if the cycle goes uninterrupted. It means, literally, “to feel again”; resentment clings to the past, relives it over and over, picks each fresh scab so that the wound never heals. This pattern doubtless began with the very first couple on earth. ”Think of all the squabbles Adam and Eve must have had in the course of their years,” wrote Martin Luther. “Eve would say, ’You ate the apple,’ and Adam would retort, ’You gave it to me.’” Pp 96,97 “Forgiveness offers a way out. It does not settle all questions of blame and fairness – often it pointedly evades those questions – but it does allow a relationship to start over, to begin anew. In that way, said Solzhenitsyn,we differ form all animals. Not our capacity to think, but our capacity to repent and to forgive makes us different. Only humans can perform that most unnatural act, which transcends the relentless law of nature. If we do not transcend nature, we remain bound to the people we cannot forgive, held in their vise grip. This Principle applies even when one party is wholly innocent and the other wholly to blame, for the innocent party will bear the wound until he or she can find a way to release it – and forgiveness is the only way. Oscar Hijuelos wrote a poignant novel, Mr. Ives Christmas, about a man who is throttled by bitterness until somehow he finds it within himself to forgive the Latino criminal who murdered his son. Although Ives himself did nothing wrong, for decades the murder has kept him an emotional prisoner.” “Not to forgive imprisons me in the past and locks out all potential for change. I thus yield to another, my enemy, and doom myself to suffer the consequences of the wrong. I once heard an immigrant rabbi make and astonishing statement. “Before coming to America, I had to forgive Adolf Hitler,” he said. “I did not want to bring Hitler inside me to my new country.” We forgive not merely to fulfill some higher law of morality; we do it for ourselves. As Lewis Smedes points out, “The first and often the only person to be healed by forgiveness is the person who does the forgiveness…” When we genuinely forgive, we set a prisoner free and then discover that the prisoner we set free was us.” For the biblical Joseph, who had borne a well-deserved grudge against his brothers, forgiveness spilled out in the form of tear and groans. These, like childbirth’s were harbingers of liberation, and through them Joseph gained at last his freedom. He named his son Manasseh, “one who causes to be forgotten.” The only thing harder than forgiveness is the alternative.” Pages 98-100 Ok, now does anyone have any comments? dooj

Digi, About the color of the rooms. I have friends that decorate and others that have lived in Europe. My general understanding is that if you have a dark room - paint it a light color. So if the room with the fireplace is dark during the day - might be north light - paint it a light warm color - maybe a version of yellow you can live with then maybe do one wall darker accent color. Rooms that get lots of light can be darker and warmer - or cooler depending the effect you want. I have a room that gets bathed in warm light all day long - I plan on painting it a dark version of sage green - to cool down the room. There is a theory that you should strive to have the whole house seem to be one value as you look from one room to another. I did this with some friends in an old railroad apt in NYC years ago. the end rooms were very light - they were darker - but not the same color. The middle room was very dark and we painted it a very light lavender. When we stood in one end and looked through the other it seemed as is it were the same value (if I were to take a B/W picture it would have been about the same gray. Anyway - there's some input. Ultimately you have to pick colors that you and hubby live with well. Your color choices that you wrote about seemed very pleasing. Go with your gut instinct.

Digitalis, I would also like to add that if you look at all my posts I thnk you'll find that even whenI am attacked that I try not to respond in kind. You didn't even attack me. I certainly would not be rude to you with NO provocation. I don't know you other than what I have read in your posts and the few times we have met in chat. (I feel quite confident that you can say the same about me.) Based on the little I do know about you from your posts I like you and would never actively seek to antagonize you. The disadvantage to the forum format is that we can't look someone square in the eye, and hear their voice and get their meaning just from the words spoken. I started tis topic so that artists could meet and talk about their art, as well as their lives during and after TWI. I am hoping that many have continued in their talents. I hope that you will read this and that we can put this behind us. I look forward to seeing your work no matter where you choose to post it. dooj

Digitalis, I am so sorry. I did not mean to insult you in any way shApe or form. I am looking forward to you posting your pictures. I want conversation. My comment about "pic away" was really a little self-denergrating. When I said that I hope something was there I meant in response to you wanting to "Pic our brains" I can't speak for Ron - but sometimes I feel Like I really don't know that much. I teach - but I am still learning.I was hoping that there was something IN MY BRAIN to pick. You went into great detail on how much it takes to be a floral designer. I was truly impressed. It seems to me that you already know so many of the basics. IMO working in three dimensions is much harder. I have tried to arrange flowers - I stink at it. Again, I vehemently apologize. Please forgive me. I meant no insult at all. dooj

Pic away - hope there's something there! LOL

Got any pics Digi? Would love to see 'em!

I don't know Ramona - but she had a choice and she made a choice - the wrong one. I would like to think that I would have left anyway. One would expect her to leave as well and tell LCM to call her later UNLESS....She really wanted to be wanted by the MOG. UNLESS - She was afraid - afraid to leave because of ramifications and bieng part of Craigo's rantings after she left. Afraid of not being in TWI. UNLESS She believed that LCM really did love her and was proving it by calling for her. None of this is noble. None of this makes her right. Ultimately she never should have been with LCM to begin with. The word"NO!" works. You can say that LCM abused his power - but i'll submit that perhaps she wanted to have some of that power. Again - I don't know her but as a wife and mother I can only think of how I would act and feel. I would not have let my hubby leave w/o me. She shares the blame. I think to a lesser extent than LCM - but not much less. Tom was a vicitm - he made a choice as well - probably a choice fueled by clinical depression ( I can only assume - I'm familiar with this as a loved one has suffered with this for years) from years of seeing his wife run off to another man who was his superior. ( also, I would like to think that my hubby would not have left w/o me.) But again, if he was truly feeling like he could never win - then he conceded - everything. Sad Lots of assumptions - but sometimes one needs to set up hyupotheticals to get closer to walking in another's shoes.

Some people call me and optimist - others say that I'm still naiive. I choose to believe that through all of this - the good the absolutely awful and the ugly, that God took care of many of us. All tht happened to me has informed my decisions on how I raise my kids, has changed how I deal with other Christians. It has certainlygiven me strength of character. Maybe all this happened not because of TWI but in spite of it. I just can't seem to make myself take God out of the equation entirely. I entered TWI searching for God. I stayed because I thought He was there. I left when I realized He wasn't. (granted it took over 10 years) Do we all have cosimc telescopes that can read the mind of God to tell us that things might not have been worse for many had they not endured the crap of TWI? Look I Hate TWI as much as the next person - but I still had good times while I was "in" Mostly I met a bunch of great people - many of which are on GS. Does it make me evil in some way because I made friends and learned some valuable lessons? Like what NOT to do ever again? I'm not trying to negate the awful things that happened. I just don't understand why it is has to be an all or nothing thing. Maybe like for some was tolerable in TWI, for others it was H#LL! Everyone who is out now has a choice - become a slave to TWI forever by getting bitter - or take back their lives. DISCLAIMER: Now for those who are still "in" and are reading this. This is NO EXCUSE for you to say that things are alright in TWI. There is no way that you cna count your blessings while ignoring the murder and defiling of your brothers and sisters. Many of us (Me included) lived our lives back in TWI days not knowing what was befalling our brethren. You do not have the same luxury of ignorance. If you have read the posts on this site you know that your are in bed with a bunch of snakes. You now have to make the choice -

You know, It occurs to me that even w/o all the obviously bad stuff there was also a very insidious underlying evil - Pride. I remember being a very prideful, extremely NOT humble person. That alone has got to account for a lot of the crap that happened. W/O humility a lot is lacking in the life of a Christian.

Thin Lizzy, "Get thee to a nunnery!" :o :o

Ok JL - Not everyone was in the thick of it. It was possible for good things to happen to one person while bad - awful - was happening to others. I know Ron and I know that he is in no way intending to whitewash the bad things that happened to people.

Well said Bluzeman. I firmly believe that life is too short to start picking out differences. Let's find what we have in common and enjoy each other's company while we can.

So you think that fruit is optional? Kind of makes sense the way you present it.....however what about a bad tree bringing forth good fruit or a good tree bringing forth bad fruit......Personally, I`d say that the legacy of twi counts as some mighty putrid fruit..... RASCAL, I do not believe that fruit is optional. Fruit is not really something we can "control" anymore than the tree can decide what it bears. Fruit is evidnce of inner health. Puny or putrid fruit - very sickly tree. I do believe that there is always a difference between what we have and what we show. The best time to really see someone is when they don't think your'e looking. All those nine qualities in Galatians - they can be faked. BUT fi you are watching someone you will really see what they are made of. This is really more philosophical than I care to get into right now. - And I wasn't really thinking that you were judging Om - but I'm always on guard. Oh heck, maybe I was just being nosey. Anyway, good that the two of you can celebrate what you have in common.