doojable

Raf, I wasn't making a "charge" for you to be guilty of. I just have checked this thread every few days or so an have noticed - no Mike. For the record - or just to satisfy my curiosity - why is it necessary to anticipate his responses? Lots of good discussion here. A little mean spirited at times - but good just the same. Maybe there's nothing new because -well, there's nothing new to say. The way I have always approached the subject is this: If the things in PFAL have helped at all then use them. Don't use what has no value. I often wonder if TWI had not gotten so big so fast because of the youth that carried it in the '70's, if maybe other classes would have carried some of this info instead. Then TWI maybe wouldn't have existed but a lot of the info would still be out there. Again, just pondering.....

"Put (him or her) out of my misery...." Anonymous

ok ok I was gone allllllll day - Nutcracker rehearsals and all...... "For unless they see the sky, But they can't and that is why..."

I think that it is very interesting that Mike hasn't posted in a couple of pages yet many of you are talking for him. Some of you that don't agree with him are even making his arguments for him - or so it seems - Anyway - just an observation...

What side of town were you on? I was Near the Westheimer/ Hillcroft area. I'm not sure I ever got to Gilley's. We got robbed TWICE that year - by someone who we tried to get into the Word. We sure exposed ourselves to a lot considering that a lot of us were still quite young. - but I came to Love that city - until I moved away from it....heh heh heh heh heh

"Take a Walk on the Wild Side" by Lou Reed Am I right?

Hey Word Wolf - It's your turn - we're all waiting!

I do remember Him. I wonder if he went back to Beaumont - where he was from. it always got me a little that he was so close to home - and he got to continue his art when so many had to give it up. Bu he was a great guy. I think I remember you - but I'm not sure since there were soooooo many families from h*ll that year!

Right! - from the "graceland" CD - the next line is one of my favorites - "there were incidents and accidents, there were hints and allegations..." the song always reminds me about TWI... Oh yeah - you guys're still here..... Your turn Raf

" He ducked back down the alley With some rolypoly little bat-faced girl"

Ok here goes.... "who'll be my roll model Now that my roll model's Gone, gone....?"

Good analogy!!!!!

I think the artist is "Cher" but I didn't get the clue for the song Am I right dooj

Sorry Jonny Lingo, I vaguely remember the car - but I'm too old to remember faces - I didn't graduate with you guys - If you feel you can trust me, PM me maybe then we will see if we know each other or not. Hope that wasn't too much of an invasion considering the privacy factor around here.... I promise to keep it quiet - Just ask Ex10. Dooj Hey BTW - does anyone know where Brenda Mooncotch is? let her know I want to say Hi if you do.... Dooj

Ken Brown and his wife. While he was in NYC, he taught a class on logic that sticks with me today. Frank Scaife - another great guy. Not only the 11th corps but many of the 10th as well. The Mooncotch sisters, a girl in the 11th named Nicole - I'm sick tht we were great friends but now I can't recall her last name. We were united by a love of God and a desire to do good. What I am most thankful for is that without my itme in the Corps I would have had no chance or reason to spend as much time with these people as I did.

WOW! This has really gone haywire! Well I'm glad for the comic relief. I go to teach some students how to see and draw and I come back to ...well... Star Wars! Talk about really going back to the "70's! And to think that when I joined this site I determined not to get involved in any of the "Doctrinal " forums. Little did I know... This is obviously a LOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNG standing argument. Sorry I didn't know how to figure that out before I started the thread. I'll not do that again! No matter who's right and who's wrong this can't be good for anyone involved! It's time consuming. It's exhausting just keeping up with the posts. I feel deep within my very being that life is being sucked out of our souls by this. Please forgive me all of you. This was the wrong thread for me to start as a newbie. No matter what you all think of each other (or me for that fact) we are all better than this and God deserves better than this.. If I had the power I would shut this thing down NOW. Ponder this please, No snappy comebacks. If you see the futility in this just get quiet and pray for your enemy... whoever that may be. Let God sort out the details - He will anyway.

I graduated in "83. The work was done sometime before that. Work was not completely scrapped but by the same token Dr did NOT want CG to kiss his a**. He wanted the work to be as accurate as possible. it was not just a 'Dr's been right all along" type of teaching. Dr said on more than one occasion - "Don't just take my word for it. Go to the Word and see for yourselves." Dr did teach something to the effect that God would not speak to a Man of God who was consistently out of fellowship. Saul comes to mind. I simply cannot trust anything he said regarding PFAL given that he was a man given to some very earhtly lusts and abuses. And he never said anything that I heard that gave instruction to work the class as if it were the Word itself. I think even he would have said that that is just idolotry. IMHO this is a leap in logic that I cannot take. Oh and regarding "getting phone numbers" for revelation. My radar has been pinging on an acceptable level up until THAT statement! Now if I were in a sub I'd be real worried. The last person who talked about getting phone numbers for revelation seemed to be the real deal. He had been in the Corps with me and I liked him and even respected him even tho I didn't necessarily agree with all that he said. He then blew it all by stealing his best friend's wife and going to California. As I recall revelation is not a parlor trick. Now God gave me specific directions regarding what he wanted me to focus on with my life. PFAL was not it. UMMMM - the Father trumps a son. (Not THE Son - One of the adopted ones that is) You seem very invested in this concept. Just by observation and the relatively few posts I have read I'd have to say that you are involved in a TWI-A. A part 2 of TWI I if you will. I can't say that I support the idea.

Mike - To my knowledge Dr did not publicly ask CG to do anything. But VPW WAS there and introduced Chris's presentation. He was SO pleased and thanked CG for all his hard work. Just because there is no tape of Dr asking doesn't mean it wasn't so. It doesn't offend me that you don't take my word for it. Why should it offend me? I'm too old and have been around to long. Just be reminded that just because not every word VPW spoke is not recorded doesn't mean that it wans't said. Many a time I remember Dr asking the tapes to be turned off during Corps gatherings. i'm sure his conversations in the motorcoach weren't recorded. i'm sure that his converstions with the missus weren't recorded. I'm sure that in some cases he didn't have things recorded so that he couldn't be called on the carpet. Now back to the subject at hand - sorry for the digression.

It is totally possible that Uriah's family NEVER accepted King David's psalms. He was, after all, the king - what were they to do? They had to at least listen. They didn't have to like them - or accept them as the word of God. Then again - when confronted by Nathan, David asked for forgiveness. perhaps Nathan told that to the family - but there is no proof of that - only speculation.

Oh but Mike - Chris Geer did re-work the whole believing and faith thing - while Dr was still alive. I was there when it was presented and taught. DR. LOVED IT! It really doesn't matter what Dr said over and over. It only matters what GOD wants. I can't quite make that jump that Dr was always speaking for God. It is quite possible tht given Dr's slips in morality that his final exhortations were designed to get us off of him and back to the Word the Word and only the Word - which he also said countless times. my brain hurts...... Monty Python I think this is one of those times that Ecclesiastes refers to.....

Um - Mike - Dr told Chris Geer to work on Beleiveing and Faith within the last few years before his death. "The "re-working" of PFAL that Dr called for, if viewed in light of the many other things he said about the same subject, had to be a re-working in the mind of the student, not a re-working of the WRITTEN material, junking it and printing changed material." I feel fairly sure that this is a major assumption and at least for me defies logic. - Sorry I disagree with the expansion of PFAL to being new scripture - I simply cannot buy that one. It seems to me that God would never limit himself regarding seeing Jesus Christ. OMG - he gave prophesies, stellar signs, angels and much more to help people see the Christ THE FIRST TIME. Why hide him now in an obscure class? If I understand you right you're approach to this subject is like the finding of the scriptures and the rebuilding of the wall. Ezra, and Nehemiah all over again - but this time it is PFAL that is to be rediscovered. I really fo have some problems with that - so if my eyes are blinded - well then pray that they be opened - but I'm not revisiting any of it at this time. God HIMSELF would have to tell me to do so. I went through major healing to get away form worshipping the work of research - that is an addiction I will only revisit with clear and present orders. Not with "God told me to tell you..." I found contradictions in the class when I was a new grad. can't remeber them now - I just overlooked them because I accept contradictions from men. Not trying to focus on you. I have just read way too much CS Lewis in my time and I took this class on logic - so this is just not jiving on so many levels that my red flags are blinking faster than the tailight on my car that is out.

Ok a few points have hit me here: It is possible for God to call a man to service and that man to stray - once the man has strayed God's people are not indebted to follow that man. - Namely - Saul, Solomon, Baalam, Jonah (although he didnt even give the people in question the chance to reject or follow him - until after he got it back together.) :) ) Then it would stand to reason that since God understands that we are but dust AND he knows our propensity for sin and error - he would NOT require us to regard VPW as God's only man - nor has he EVER required allegiance to a man over the Word or Himself. I'm sorry - but the plagerism is there and cannot be equivocated away. I personally think it would have added more credence to VPW to cite various sources - would have really shown how he pulled together a variety of sources and took what worked and rejected the rest - you know - research! Oh and THE BIBLE is to be our primary source for truth - not PFAL. PFAL was always just to be a means to an end. PFAL simply cannot be new scripture - unless I have misunderstood Jesus Christ when he said that no jot or tittle would be added or subtracted. Besides - there's no real "WORD" to it. It is simply a guide to researching. Now granted, I am very thankful for the research skills I have learned. Oh and didn't VPW himself ask Chris Geer to re-work the section on Believing and Faith? At the very least you have to admit that he did not feel up to the task. I thnk that speaks volumes on more than one level. (at least 2 new threads there!) No matter how bad our lives were in TWI - it just may NOT be the fault of the class - even with the plagerism and the inaccuracies. There really is no telling what cr*p may have befallen many of us had we stayed on the road we were on. Men with power turn to garbage. The only way things work is when we remember that only God has the true power. Not defending TWI - just pondering. God and Jesus Christ just might very well be very interested in PFAL and JCNG - because they both profess to be the truth about THEM. I know if someone were to write something about me I would be interested - though I might not agree with it all - or any of it for that matter. I might declare it all to be out and out lies - Then I would REALLY be interested in it! They just happen to be more patient than we are because they know the truth and they know its coming! In short: I am certain that in many ways many of our discussions and arguments will prove to be "tempests in a teacup" for no matter what we believe God has a truth that is unchanging. I am positive that each and every person - Christian and non-Christian- will be surprised when we meet Jesus face to face. Some more than others - but we still see through a glass darkly. Our mission here on earth is to attempt to see more clearly -but I don't see any Spiritual Lasik surgery coming until we hear trumpets -(probably the subject of another thread that I'm NOT gettng into ) You all have one thing in common - you are passionate about your beliefs. That's a start. (OK don't bite my head off for saying that someone out there has somethng in common with someone else. I need my head right now.

Thanks WW - I figured you'd be the one to clear this up. And thanks for your patience. I always figure that something has been discussed in the past but I can never figure out just how to track it down.. Anyway, forgive my ignorance of B ball. I don't care much for sports. Give me a painting to do anyday.

Ok I know that this is a bit off topic - but didn't VPW also state tht HE invented the layup shot? - or was it the 3 point shot? I can't find any anything to dispute or confirm this - but it seems suspicious and possibly one of those tall tales that helped him gain an "in" with young guys. Any one out there know anything?

I was led to that motorcoach - by a staff memeber but somehow got out - intact. I think the guy expected me to be willing and I wasn't. After that not too many guys talked to me. Now I finally no why. Oh and AMF isn't a Texas thing - it's a military thing I got from my ex-airforce husband. ("ex" refers to the ariforce not the husband.) The only group that uses more acronyms than TWI -the military. I tell more as they come to me. I usually only know the ones that keep me from cussing. Like - SOL S**t Outta Luck :D