Jeaniam

I still subscribe to the idea that no matter how screwed up twi became (and I concede that in its later days it was at least as religious as the church I was escaping from) that many of the things I learned in twi were the truth and still benefit my life today. It seems to me that to arbitrarily reject everything we learned from twi because of the misdeeds of some is to throw out the baby with the bath water. Admittedly the bath water is dirty, and needs to be discarded, but much that I learned is of value, and there are many people that I met in twi that are still some of my closest friends. I also hope that Rainbow girl was not hurt by any of my posts, that was not my intention.

I'm not as familiar with some of the more contemporary women leaders (Margaret Thatcher, Indira Gandhi, Golda Meir, etc.) as I am with women in past centuries. Elizabeth I of England ruled England at a time when her role was more than a constitutional one. She was at least as well educated as any man in her century, was gifted with a fine political brain, and trained how to use it. As far as what I have read about her, she never lost sight of the fact that it was her function to act in the best interests of her subjects, that she ruled by the will of the people, and it was her job to serve their best interests. This was all in the context of the sixteenth century when democracy was pretty unheard of.

Subjecting one to another, pretty much covers it for me. There were times in our life when I was required to take charge. There were times when my husband was entirely unreasonable and it was necessary for me as the mother of the children and guardian of the home, a Godly responsibility to stand up against and actually defy him, in complete disregard of the twi teaching. (He just never had much trouble defying me for some reason...lol)

As with most of our understanding from twi, I didn`t think I could or should untill it was actually required. Then I realised how dumb we had been. There are times in everyones lives where they are mistaken or arses, in spite of their gender.

Sometimes when your judgement if faulty, or impaired, your actions will affect innocent people adversely.

I just know that life was tough while I followed the *submit to your husband/leader* dogma. We began to heal and grow once I quit shutting up as the meek little woman.

Our role is so much greater than we usually can see it.

I think the only thing that limits some of us many times is ourselves.

Well, I never advocated shutting up as the 'meek little woman', nor was I addressing times when one or the other spouse was being unreasonable to any degree. There have been many times over the years when I stood up to my husband (usually over the way he was treating the kids). There have also been many times when we sat down and discussed various courses of action, logically not emotionally, and when all was said and done, were still at odds with each other, and a decision still had to be made. At those times, my husband exercised his role as tie-breaker, and I have never found him to be other than fair and just in those situations, but I was blessed with a husband who takes more seriously his duty to love me as his own flesh, than worrying about my duty to be subject to him. In fact it is usually easy to obey him because I have learned over the years to trust that he is always considering my point of view and our family's needs before making a decision, not just being an arbitrary jerk. To quote Song of Solomon 2:4 for many years now "his banner over me has been love", and I have been very fortunate to have been married to such a wonderful man.

I guess my waybrain was showing. I am not really a feminist, and I subscribe to the idea that true equality between men and women can be found in the Bible. I don't believe that the admonition for women to be subject to their own husbands necessarily carries with it the idea that women are second-class citizens, nor does the reference to women as the "weaker vessel" necessarily carry with the inference of "I must be dumb, or lesser than my husband because I'm 'only a woman'". I guess I believe that God created men and women to complement each other not necessarily to compete with each other, and you can achieve that without sacrificing equality.

I would hardly name Joan of Arc as a prime example of a woman who made a difference without sacrificing her femininity, considering that she was executed before the age of twenty for cutting her hair like a man's, and dressing like a man. I will certainly concede that she changed history.

God is a spirit, hence asexual. And, by the way, I think many of the early First Ladies fell into the category of well-behaved women, and I think we would all concede that they made history. I think their contributions to this country were at least as great as their husbands', and they managed to do it without sacrificing their femininity