Jeaniam

I believe FullCircle quoted 1 Cor 15:19.

And we don't care much for stalking posters around the forums.

Just a warning.

1 Cor 15:19 is talking about the hope. And BTW, I am not stalking Full Circle. I think this is the first time I have responded to one of his posts, or at least the first time I remember.

Quote: "If the best God can do is VP...to teach his word and lead his people, that is a God I want no part of."

The best God could do to lead His people include David (an adulterer and a murderer) who God refers to as a man after his own heart and that's AFTER the aforementioned adultery and murder, and the apostle Paul (also a murderer) who received the revelation of the church epistles, without which we wouldn't know that these people WERE our brothers and sisters in Christ.

and I will NOT have a pair of pooper scoopers following me.

If VP was the real thing, then we of all men are most miserable

Are you really referring to your own posts as poop, or possibly another 8 letter word that means the same thing? Just curious. And BTW that's not a Bible quote.

Jean - I was just letting you know. I may have misread - but that last statement came across as sarcastic. Was it meant to be?

I think I've been fairly calm and even toned in all of this. I will tell you that that paper was used to figure out which women had a better chance of being manipulated sexually.

I'm glad you didn't have to write that paper. I'm glad you didn't go through a lot of what has been described.

Hi, I'm back. We occasionally forget to switch, which leads to confusion, but right now I'm me. No, it was not intended to be sarcastic, I switch gears very easily, and at that point I was done being serious, and it was intended as kind of a light-hearted wave in your direction or a light-hearted acknowledgement of what you had said to me. I think you have been fairly calm and even toned in this too, although I'm not sure we're ever going to agree. Vive le difference!!!

quote: How would that line up with Jesus` teaching about a tree unable to bear both good fruit and bad fruit?

How would "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" line up with Jesus' teaching about a tree unable to bear both good fruit and bad fruit?

I would be willing to bet that you had very little actual dealings with top twi leadership on a personal basis or this wouldn`t come as such a shock nor would be defending them so staunchly.

I knew some people who graduated in the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th Corps. I am not defending the men who (allegedly) did these things. I am defending the many fine men and women who would never do such things, nor tolerate them if they knew about them. As I have said before in the areas where I was the "doctrine" was that abstinence was the best plan, it was grounds for being dismissed from the WOW field, and I know personally of men (one of whom was a good friend of John's) that were removed from positions of leadership for sexual indiscretions, usually not a month or a week later, but the very same day the BC learned about their escapades. One of these episodes didn't even involve another believer or involve any thing approaching rape; it involved a man who hired a prostitute (which while still being a sin, at least just involved a prostitute doing what prostitutes do. I know that still doesn't excuse it). My point is that there were many fine men and women who took a stand against sexual indiscretions, and they do not deserve to be tarred with the same brush as the (possibly few) perverts.

The Corps were all required to write a paper

"The Way for Me - From Birth to the Corps"

I never entered the Corps. Dooj, 'Vive la difference' to you, too.

Yeah. "They" also had all of the paperwork from your past, the paper where you "spilled your guts" and told them everything about your background. Plus evaluations, etc. etc.

They KNEW who would be pliable, who would submit, who would talk, and who wouldn't.

No such paper on me exists.

Well said Listener...(I think that you were right btw about more than re quote of my sig)

Oh, I'll clarify my intent. It was intended to demonstrate contempt for you. And BTW, The post where you used the phrase about people being not spiritually sophisticated to be able to handle the truth, your meaning is at best ambiguous, and at worst a lie.

jean

don't you know ole vic stole most if not all his stuff from reputable reasearches?

So what? Don't really care.

Just curious.

I know all the negatives on Wierwille. But what about the good? He did, after all, build the ministry to credible levels and it seemed pretty prosperous to me while he was alive. It seemed to take the nose dive after LCM took control.

There is some research, I believe, that may have originated with him, that was pretty good. I hope it originated with him.

Any thoughts on the GOOD stuff?

I don't think a lot of it originated with him, but I think he might have been one of the first to put it in a really coherent package (PFAL). I think one of the great things he did was his work in the Holy Spirit field; the manifestations and fruit of the spirit, etc. I agree with you, TWI really took the nose dive after LCM took over and especially after VPW fell asleep.

BTW, I'm really glad you started this thread.

Jean, I disagree, I think the way was WAS a corrupt organization from the very inception.

Well, I disagree with that, unless you're using "corrupt" in the way that any organization with people in it is "corrupt". I also object to your assumption that anyone who disagrees with you is in your phrase "not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle the truth". So much for "if you don't learn from your mistakes, you're doomed to repeat them". Some of you have already begun to repeat the same mistakes that you claim to disdain in twi.

And, Doojable, I don't agree with what you said about just because I didn't see it in the areas where I was means that the coverup or whatever you called was successful. I think that it means that there were a lot of good honest people who got involved with twi for just the reasons on the green card, and no ulterior motive whatsoever.

Ain't it grand to have the ability to think for myself, instead of being told what to think by "Rascal-Mistress of darkness".

Doojable

Okay, I'll consider it. I'm not so sure that I'm ready to consider that it was the accepted "doctrine", rather than an aberration. Once again, the doctrine for all the areas I was in was that even premarital sex was a poor idea, and extra marital sex was a worse one. I don't know how many times over the years I heard the admonition; "Men keep it in your pants, Ladies keep your pants on". During my WOW year, sex with another member of your family was grounds for dismissal. In return, I'd like you to at least consider the possibility that it was not as prevalent as some say. As I said before, what if the whole truth is that the many God-loving people who wouldn't do something like that under any circumstances far outweighed the few perverts. It doesn't excuse anything but I'm going to observe that in group the size twi grew to it's impossible to control the fact that some people got involved for less than pure motives.

And, as a general aside, when you have someone using the phrase "people who are not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle the truth", I question how much some of you have learned from the mistakes of twi. The last time I heard that phrase being used, it was coming out of the mouth of (gasp, shock, awe, tell me it ain't so) twi leadership. Possibly some of you have some honesty to attain.

In the neighborhood where I grew up , there were many(and I mean MANY) people who had experienced the horrors of the concentration camps of eastern Europe. These were the parents and grandparents of kids who were my age. Can you imagine how cruel it would have been to tell them "Hitler's dead, none of that matters now."

Look, I'm not saying that TWI was like a concentration camp. What I am saying is that even though VPW is dead, the effects of his actions continue to have an impact that will probably last a very long time.

Again, this is not about what Jesus Christ did for us, or how great God is, or whether we had some good times in TWI.

It is about accepting once and for all that The Way was a corrupt organization and that there were serious doctrinal problems that existed at the uppermost levels. It's about coming to grips with the realization that much of what we did there was really a fruitless effort. It hurts,I know. But it's all part of the healing process.

edited to correct some poor grammar.

I don't think I have ever said "none of that matters now". The Way BECAME a corrupt organization (unless you're using that term in the way any human organization is corrupt). A fruitless effort? No, I don't accept that. Were not the dead raised, the blind receive sight, people receive healing from various diseases? I have a feeling that someone is going to come along and say that all those healings were frauds. I deny that, but believe whatever you want.

That is what this thread is about; undoing the wrong doctrine, the non caring non compassion side of TWI so that we change and we don't pass it onto our children.

Is it? Or is it about reopening old wounds that might be better left to heal, and recounting old horror stories under the guise of getting at the truth? Once again, VPW is DEAD and beyond the point of hurting anyone (unless we get a reenactment of Carrie). Last time I looked, none of us are involved with TWI any more so none of us are in any position to change any thing there except by prayer. I'm certainly not going to pass on to my children that that kind of behavior is acceptable, but I'm not sure that I'm going to pass onto them that your (general not specific) kind of behavior is either.

Full circle, thanks for sharing your pieces of the puzzle. Your account dovetails in with what others have shared of their experiences.

Bolshevik, I agree about the doctrine sucking the joy out of life. It was only in starting from scratch did I start seeing the hand of God again. Some of the stuff I retained as of value, most was discarded as I learned the greater law of love.

I am not saying our experiences weren`t enjoyable, or that we didn`t learn something of merit...we did, I am not denying that. But then again....neither do the surviving davidians or temples gate folks...heck there are still folks following the stargate (I think was their names) even after the comet went by and their fellow cult members suicided. Everyone seems to have excuses why the death or theft was ok. (I don`t think any of them had the legacy of debauchery that ours did)

Everyone is still very protective of the group that they invested so much time and heart into. People seem to need to make it some how ok...they are passionate in their defense of their lifes choices...whether it makes sense in hind sight or not....

Anybody that thinks otherwise is some how ignorant or not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle it...etc

I really don`t think we have anything on these guys as far as being spiritual and right.

I think that in honestly being able to understand what was right and what was wrong, is the only way to begin healing from some of the more destructive thought processes.

Anyone who thanks people for sharing when their experiences "dovetail" with what other people have shared of their experiences, and ignores my post that points out that I was never treated with anything less than complete respect in the sexual area because it doesn't, is actively looking for only one side of the story in my book. What if the whole truth turns out to be that if it happened, it was a great deal less prevalent than some of us want to think. What if the whole truth is that the decent God-loving folks far out numbered the few perverts (or alleged perverts). BTW I've heard from the people who concede that the sexual abuse happened, that the argument about being somehow ignorant or not spiritually sophisticated was what they used to justify their actions.

For me it all comes down to this:

Does all of what we learned need to be correct?

I don't think so.

Do all the leaders need to have been perfect?

Again - I'm saying, "No."

But - were there indescrepencies in doctrine that lead to vile offensive practices? Yes!

Perhaps now comes the hardest question of all:

Can I live with the fact that each person will deal with the wrong doctrine and wrong practices differently? I'm prone to answer, "Yes!"

Isn't it time to "agree to disagree" and move on?

There is a great deal of wisdom in what you say here.

Does all of what we learned need to be correct?

No, but I choose to hang on to a great deal that was good in the early days.

Do all the leaders need to have been perfect?

No, that is what Jesus Christ died for.

There were weaknesses in men that lead to vile offensive practices.

To the last question, I'm prone to answer "Yes!" also. Just don't try to jam your version of what happened down my throat. I still believe there is room for doubt. As you say, there were discrepancies in what was taught.

Isn't it time to "agree to disagee" and move on? Very possibly, I doubt that I am going to be able to change your mind, And you are definitely not going to be able to change mine.

Jean - I don't get your reasoning here at all. I'm sorry but this logic is faulty. Hey, Hitler is dead - so we can no longer visit the attrocities he committed?

No, I'm not equating the two men. I am saying that when you have a puzzle and a bunch of pieces, the hole they leave indicates what the missing piece looks like. This is one way I was taught to study the Bible - you take the information you have and you allow it to point the the information you are looking for.

This seems to be what I would call Inductive reasoning - theory, tentative hypothesis, pattern, observation. There certainly were patterns observed.

Ask yourself this : You say that you didn't observe any sexual misconduct personally and you have mixed reports by others. The best "nay" you've gotten is, "Well, if it happened I didn't see it." You have no firm denial. Then there are lots of people that have posted about their personal experiences. I'm no genius but it seems to me that you are not looking at enough of the picture if the only pieces you are willing to consider are your personal experiences and a handful of people that say " I didn't see nuthin'." (Okay - that was sarcastic - sorry) It seems to me that while you say that Rascal is erring by only looking at the negatives, that you are erring by not considering them. (BTW it would be only one side of the story if there were only one, or at the most a handful of woman reporting this, but there are hundreds if not thousands of women who were affected by this doctrine and it came from VPW. I'd say he practiced what he preached.)

I'm trying to look at this objectively - and I really have no reason to choose sides. But if you're going to argue that the whole picture be looked at - then you have to play by the same rules.....

Now- this is a separate argument from whether or not the doctrine was sound. I've proposed that there must have been enough error for this kind of behaviour to flourish.

I have a variety of responses; it wasn't going on, it was going on but VPW didn't know about it, it was going on and he knew about it but wasn't a part of it, it was going on and he might have been a part of it, etc. etc etc. MY personal experience is that in the sexual area I was never treated with any thing less than complete respect at all times. During the training for my WOW year, it was emphasized repeatedly "This is not a time for sexual olympics. Gentlemen keep it in your pants, ladies keep your pants on", and where I was, that was adhered to, and that was in 1986.

And you're right, this is a separate argument from whether the doctrine was sound. Once again I'm going to say that I received everything I said I was looking for when I signed the green card, and I still have those benefits today, a relationship with God, peace in the home, etc. etc. and I am not going to throw those things away no matter what twi turned into, and I am not going to feel guilty about having them either. What I was taught in twi was far greater than I was ever taught in any church incorruptible seed, a hope that didn't include a God with a baseball bat, speaking in tongues, how to pray effectively and the list goes on.

Waysider, you're right, some of it was good, and some of it was bad. Towards the end a great deal of it was bad, but I don't want to see the good things tossed away or called worthless because of the bad.

If you mean the doctrine slowly sucks every ounce of vitality and joy from your gut, making the hope something to be feared, and causing you to mentally snarl at the loving God Almighty. . . unless of course you've become a mindless wayferbrain goon,

Then yes, TWI's doctrine works.

It never did that for me. The church I was escaping from certainly made the hope something to be feared to the point that when I was very young I was afraid to go to sleep at night lest I should die in the night.

Thankyou Eyes, I wasn`t responding to you, but felt I needed to be crystal clear in light of the repeated allegations that I had been ugly in pm`s.

Go back and re read jean, I never said that ever. It would be quite a foolish assumption on my part. This thread is not about that...if you would like to address pm`s do it there please. This thread is about why people need twi to be ok.

And why some people need it to be less than ok

Just to clarify, I never ever said anything ugly to jeaniam in private messages. I simply replied honestly to the questions that she asked. I did not initiate contact nor did I continue to answere her.... (ignoring the name calling and allegations entirely)....after she told me to never contact her again. I do not know how to paste pm`s, or I would in self defense..

I said nothing that I did not say right here in the open, I spoke carefully with much thought, and with all of the love and tact that I could muster.

I KNOW this is a lot to digest, I know that it is difficult to believe that people we loved and trusted could have betrayed us so.

It is much easier to believe that the folks presenting the other side of the stories are lying so as not to have to re evaluate ones entire spiritual understanding. I have nothing but compassion in my heart when exploring these issues and coming to grips with what happened.

I have tried to ignore the slams because I do not want this thread to end up in the soap opera forum. I don`t mind.

I do not care what I am called, but I want folks to know that I was not ugly to anybody in public or private.

No, you just claimed that the miniscule bit that you know of John's personality should outweigh the twenty years of love, kindness, and loyalty that he and I have shared, and told me that I nneded to look beneath the surface and find out "the whole story". I am in possession of far more of the story than you are and have seen all of what lies beneath the surface. Possibly you need to look beneath the surface and find out the whole story, not just what backs up what you have already decided to believe.

Dooj, thankyou. Don`t underestimate our ability to stay on track in spite of detours here and there. I think some awsome ground is being covered. People are all contributing missing pieces of the puzzle so that we can get a greater idea of the entire picture.

It is a good thing :)

I don't think you really want to get the entire picture, just enough negatives to justify what you have already made up your mind to believe. The entire picture is not available. Since one of the main alleged participants is dead there will always be a missing piece in the picture.

If the defendant is dead there may no longer be a criminal case. but there most certainly can be a civil case against the estate.

And as far as I know there never has been one and I imagine the statute of limitations has long since expired.

It's not necessary to sit in judgement in order to exercise judgement. We are allowed to withold our trust until it is earned.

We are supposed to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

Well, I guess you can withhold your trust from VPW (who is the only one I'm discussing here) but I'm not sure I see the point since as I have said repeatedly; he's dead and has been for more than twenty years.

This is johniam; forgot to switch, sorry about that.

quote:

I notice that Rascal says things like "it seems that," or "somehow I don't think." At least she appears to be leaving some room for error.

Yes, but she also says stuff like...

quote: lets not examine the fruit of the spirit that will identify whether our leader are of the flesh or of the spirit TOO closely because we really don`t want to KNOW what the source of their power was...geeze ..it just isn`t honest.

...and...

quote: I think that sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty.

...clearly implying that a) the TWI leaders were from the devil, and b) posters like me are arrogant and dishonest. She leaves no room for human error; she's RIGHT, and ANY disagreement is WRONG!

Yes, my post was judgemental, but at least I left room for Rascal to do better, plus, that IS what I think is going on with her. So, in reality, I'M the one who's being honest.

Isn't it possible that both sets of ordained clergy can be right? These two sets of people aren't mutually exclusive. It is entirely possible that the "evil deeds" happened and some saw and others didn't.

I know in my life that I had things happen to me that were a direct result of how VPW taught his minions to act.

I don't know and I am still not going to take it upon myself to sit in judgment. In the areas I personally was in I had leaders who were adamant on the rule that pre-marital sex was not a really good idea, and extra-marital sex was a worse one. Yes, before I was married I had men who made passes at me; some pretty enthusiastic ones but there was no one who didn't back off when I said "No" and I only ever had to say it once.

Well, let's take a good look at the Bible then and see who lived a less than exemplary life. Adam committed the first sin, he should be gone. Cain committed the first murder-out. Moses killed someone-out. Saul was a devil worshipper and attempted murderer-out. David was an adulterer and murderer-there go big chunks of Kings and Chronicles, all of Psalms etc. Solomon was a bigamist- there goes Proverbs and Song of Solomon. Moving on to the New Testament, Peter denied Christ several times-he's gone. Judas Iscariot- well how low can you go? The apostle Paul murdered believers- there goes most of the book of Acts, the epistles (church and otherwise). Therefore we should be humble enough to concede that nothing they wrote is of any value and we should start over from scratch and rewrite the Bible from our independent (and no doubt pure) revelation. Good luck, send me a copy when you're done.

Incorrect.

They would be called eyewitness accounts and witness testimony.

This is considered superior evidence to all other forms,

which legally are considered circumstantial.

Any attorney could tell you he could make or break any case

based on the eyewitness testimony.

All the circumstantial evidence in the world can't beat enough

eyewitness testimony.

Not without VPW's presence in court they wouldn't. If the defendant is dead there is no court case.