Jeaniam
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Jeaniam,
You got pretty close to the description of Agape - as I understand it - when you said it was like "loving someone else when there is nothing in it for you".
That's the concept of Agape I was thinking about, when I started this thread.
If, in fact, there's nothing in it (no benefits) for the person who is doing the Agape'ing, then, at what point is that person giving too much? At what point is that person allowing themself to be used? At what point does Agape become damaging or dangerous to the person performing it? At what point does Agape step over the line into loving someone else MORE than one's self?
... Because when this happens, then the second commandment is violated. The second commandment does NOT say "love your neighbor MORE THAN yourself"; it says AS yourself.
"AS" means "the same as" or "equally". Not "more than".
Agape seems to have no boundaries. People need boundaries. Otherwise, we give and give and give, until we give ourselves away!
God, on the other hand, He can handle this kind of love.
But us earthlings ... well, the ones I know, who have tried to walk the talk of Agape ... have indeed gotten walked ... on. Crushed, to be more specific.
Shifra
Well, obviously, Jesus Christ got walked...on. Crushed, to be more specific. And obviously, he gave and gave and gave, more than any human being ever did before or since. He sacrificed his whole life for our good. He never did one self-seeking thing and he gave up all the things any normal man wants. He never married, never had children, probably never knew the release of having sex, and ended his life in torture and cruelty that were unequalled before or since. It seems to me that the definition that TWI developed for agape is probably accurate 'the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation' no matter how cold it may seem. Agape love starts in the mind or as an act of the will, and is not an emotion, although it may issue forth or manifest itself as an emotion. I am not sure about the part about 'loving when there is absolutely nothing in it for yourself'; even Christ was apparently motivated by something being in it for him. In Hebrews 12:2 it says that Jesus Christ endured the cross for the joy that was set before him, and despised the shame, etc. I'm still thinking over the 'renewed' mind and trying to see about Biblical backing for that.
And, templelady, unfortunately, in this day and time, we (the whole human race) are not all 'childen of God', but being a 'child of God' requires belief in Romans 10:9&10. This may be 'elitist' as you say, but than God must be an 'elitist' since He is the one who set it up that way.
And, Bolshevik, I am sorry about the indifference of people in the past, but we care NOW.
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If someone who is not a believer cannot have a mind that is being renewed, how is it that 1000's of unbelievers are converted to Christianity every month all over the world?? They could not be converted unless there mind was being renewed so that the Gospel could take hold.
And to say that a non-believer cannot love their neighbor as they wish them selves to be loved, that they cannot treat their neighbor with the same kind and caring considerations that they would want to be treated flies in the face of common sense. THere are thousand of non-believers who everday exemplify Christian virtue while not being Christians
That's not really what caribousam said. I think that the point cs was trying to make is that you can't really love with agape without having been born again, and having received holy spirit. Agape seems to go beyond loving your neighbor as you would wish yourself to be loved into loving someone when there is absolutely nothing in it for yourself.
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I'm certainly no theologian, but I think the TWI definition of just about everything was bogus. If we are to love with the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household" does that mean that we don't have to love anyone with the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation who is NOT in the household? Sure seemed that way to me, especially in the Martindale administration.
I'm not even sure any more I believe that I am solely responsible to "renew my mind". If God gave Saul a new heart, maybe He does that for others. I've actually asked God to help me with this and He has, via Holy Spirit.
Shifra, I personally have found myself listening to other Christian sources besides TWI and it can be helpful. You have to be careful, true, but I know personally I tended to over-examine, too minutely, everything that is not in "perfect alignment and flawless harmony" with TWI-talk. It's pretty shocking to realize that no, I don't have all the answers, and no, I'm not better than your average Joe Believer because I've had this class and that seminar, and the other advance 50 times running.
I've learned a lot of stuff that has been quite wonderful, but like I say, I'm no theologian, and I generally don't like nitpicking - I really don't care how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. But I hope this humble rambling helps.
Oh and to make a short story long, no I personally don't think I can love exactly like God loves. That's why I'm not God and He is.
Love ya and welcome back,
WG
You make a number of very good points. I also have asked God to help me by purifying or cleaning my heart and He has as it says in Psalm 51:10-12--"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free (willing) spirit". We have been taught that some of those things are not available in this administration but there have been many times in my life when I asked God to restore me to the great joy I first felt when I realized I was born again of incorruptible seed. It's very true that we need to examine our 'differences' with other groups and make sure that we are not quibbling over semantics or a situation where both groups are saying the same thing but it sounds odd because we're not used to hearing it phrased a different way.
I tend to think this agape type of love is far and above different from any caricatures of "Christian love" where we are rendered doormats for Jesus. Maybe there's something along the lines of what Bliss was saying in post # 17 – there being a self-preservation drive in us – to maintain and protect ourselves – I think that's a healthy thing…Thinking about the agape love exemplified in Jesus in the gospels – He doesn't hit me as a limp dishrag. Somehow He escaped an angry mob trying to throw Him off a cliff at the beginning of His ministry. Over zeal for His Father's house He – with maybe the frenzy of a madman – drove the moneychangers out! He looked around in anger at the religious leaders who frowned upon helping a man on the Sabbath.…And last but not least, His death on the cross was NOT martyrdom but a sacrifice! He was not a victim but victorious! He allowed that to happen as the only way to redeem mankind…Which makes me think of His words about there being no greater love than laying down your life for another. Yes – there is an aspect of agape love that is capable of self-sacrifice – if need be. True heroes of this world that make the ultimate sacrifice for a noble cause will attest to that. I imagine most true heroes like that didn't harbor a death wish or view their life as something so cheap as to be squandered needlessly.
Great post, T-Bone. I wish I'd said that.
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Ahhh there is the key.....However, the man that is currently in cgarge of your group was one of the great facillitators of evil...somehow I doubt that his motives have become altruistic in the ensuing years....
If there is any??? Was that supposed to be an insult?? No doubt you wish that I would so that nobody holds the people that are decieving accountible....
That's the real problem, that you and others like you think that your opinion is worth more than God's. You don't know what his current motives are, but you're prepared to sit in judgement anyway. And BTW how does spewing garbage behind someone's back fall into the category of holding THEM accountable? Especially when you have no idea what you're talking about.
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I think there’s a lot in what you say…Maybe we do have the capacity [at least to a certain degree – as finite beings] to love as God loves us because we were made in God’s likeness. Maybe that is why God expects us to follow the two great commandments – we were designed for that purpose. When we fail – perhaps it’s our sinful nature throwing a wrench in things – holding us back from operating at full potential.
I think maybe where VPW screwed things up was in his intellectual/dispensational approach to agape. As I said in post 7, Jesus provided vivid tutorials of the way to do things – by what He said and did. [i’m just thinking out loud here] for the Christian, Jesus’ teachings/works become a user manual on how to experience the truth personally. But it doesn’t stop there [at the intellectual level]– as if it were an academic thing. The book becomes a springboard to an encounter with Him.
I think true Christianity is about the dynamic relationship with our Lord and the Bible as merely a means to that end [developing that relationship with Him]. In my opinion, VPW’s work focused more on his pet Bible doctrines than on developing a relationship with the Lord. Between that and the dispensational cold-shoulder he gave the gospels – there was little that encouraged followers to live the love that Jesus invites us to experience. The epistles are great – one of my favorite books is Romans. But nothing gets my mind tracking with my Lord’s idea of love than reading the gospels. Sure – Christian living starts out at an intellectual level – but at some point it graduates, deepens as our hearts engage the truth personally – which is to say we engage our Lord personally.
It seems to me that is exactly the point that Peter was trying to make in his epistles; and I still don't think God is so stupid that He would tell us to do something that He already knew we were incapable of doing. I doubt that He gets some kind of cheap thrill from watching us frustrate ourselves. It really seems to me that He tells us to love that way, He tells us how to love that way, He gives us a list of what it is and is not, He provides us with examples of that love in action (Thanks T-Bone), and He gives us the ability to love like that (holy spirit).
Good post, T-Bone.
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My my, Jeaniam - are you aware that this is a DISCUSSION board? This isn't everybody says what they think and Jeaniam comes in and tells us what's a valid point - who are YOU that you think you should come in here like this? That's very rude, not to mention insulting and annoying. Stop it!
Jean - your opinion is ONLY THAT - YOUR OPINION. Your opinion is as valuable as mine, Hamm's, rascal's, all of ours - NO MORE and NO LESS.
I was hoping to get into this discussion, but as in other threads I've noticed, when you're involved it turns into personal insults and fantasies of your superiority over whomever you're trying to correct.
I've been discussing controversial subjects with my good friend rascal and others for years on this board and never do we tell each other "You're wrong" or "Hamm's point isn't valid." We can disagree without insulting each other. You might want to try it. It's most satisfying and really a pleasant way to learn things we don't already know.
And hey Jean, one last thing - God really does like all of us as much as he does you.
Whitedove - Thanks for your great example of how to disagree without insulting the writer and give the reader thoughts to ponder, rather than the sting of those insults another poster is zinging out...
A DISCUSSION??? It's a discussion where you're expected to agree with the majority viewpoint and the majority viewpoint is 'we hate TWI and everything it stands for and ever stood for' and if you dare to disagree with that, you get hounded and occasionally told that you're not welcome. This place is just about as arbitrary and legalistic as TWI ever was on its worst day. If I don't have any interest in what you're trying to 'teach' me, I will soon find myself in the position of having it rammed down my throat whether I want it or not. But if you're "good friends" with Rascal that explains a lot. And BTW, God really loves all of you as much as He does me; "like", well, that might be a different matter.
I really wasn't talking about money. The old pfal signup cliche may apply here, "well, money can replaced.."This is what I was talking about:
Hearing the word "doctor" attached to vic's name, or "reverand" to those who followed or enabled his vile lifestyle, turns my stomach.
I think anybody who BLINDLY, without DEMANDING accountability, hands these sob's their hard earned cash, even five dollars a stinking MONTH..
I better not say.
I'll talk about the money.
I'd rather give the money to the government.
I'd rather give it to PETA, or Greenpeace.
I'd rather contribute to a GAY RIGHTS cause.. there would be MORE ACCOUNTABILITY. They would probably do MORE GOOD with the money..
Well, that is your choice, just as where I choose to contribute my money is my choice and I don't have to justify it to you or anyone else.
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Well seeing as MY money WAS used to fund abortions, shopping sprees, exotic vacations..buy the motor coach that women were raped on, no doubt even the very drugs that were slipped in the drinks......I guess that it DOES matter where my money is spent and how it is used.
My money allowed evil men to sate their lusts of their bellies. My money allowed them to buy property and put forth a facade of respectability. Without our money to facilliate their activities...evil could not have thrived.
I`d say that IS my business.
That people are still being decieved and used is my business as well.
I wonder if you would say the same thing about the money the christians gave to THEIR church for God`s use in Jones group..some of which bought the cyanide that was force fed to the children, that bought the bullets and guns that assasinated the government officials who were trying to get people out....
I think that it is our responsibility to ensure that our money is not used to promote evil....shrug
Well, I don't think I'm being deceived or used and as far as I know my money is not being used to promote evil. Unforunately you are not only concerned with where YOUR money is being used; you have taken upon yourself the responsibility to decide how other people's money is being used, and apparently decide that it's being used for evil when you have no idea if that is true or not. Maybe you should confine yourself to finding out how your donations are being used (if there are any). And it is not your business when I didn't ask for your opinion (and to be perfectly honest, don't really value it).
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I had since I was a child had a real desire to have a personal relationship with God, and the church I was in didn't provide that. At best their prayer life was a hit-or-miss proposition to an arbitrary jerk of a God who might turn you down if He had gotten up on the wrong side of Heaven that morning; and who enjoyed making His children miserable 'to keep them humble'. PFAL answered many of my questions and put me on the track to getting answers for the rest. I guess that was where I found my personal answer to Matthew 5:6.
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I knew you folks would have some views about this. Thanks!
I liked your note about Jesus assuming that we already loved ourselves, when he told us to love our neighbors as ourselves, T-Bone. Maybe things were different in that culture, because honestly I don't know of many people who love themselves. Especially Christians. Especially Christians influenced by TWI. It is as though we are to love everyone else FIRST.
About loving our enemies - well, how far does that go? There are no parameters included in this directive from JC. And because of this, it is Agape love, right? The love of God. God's love. Are we really able to love like God does?
And I think when we try to love as much as God loves us, we will fail. I think the apostle Paul screwed this Agape stuff all up, or maybe it was VPW, or Walt Disney, or my dad.
Yes, we are able to love like God does. God has too much sense to tell us to do something if He knows full well that we can't do it. He knows we can do it because along with the instruction, He also gave us the ability to fulfill the instruction.
Certainly, we will fail. That's part of being human. God doesn't expect us to do it perfectly; that's what He sent His Son for: to do it perfectly in our place, because He already knew we couldn't. He DOES expect us to do it faithfully; to keep on picking ourselves up when we fail, and keep on trudging on.
I think it's notable that not only did Christ on the cross ask God to forgive the men who crucified him but so did Stephen, when he was being stoned to death, intercede for the men who were stoning him; and that group of men included Saul who went on to become the Apostle Paul. So, agape love involves loving when there may be nothing in for ourselves and, also when we have no idea what the whole profit is.
BTW, Sunesis, great post. I may have underestimated you. Mea culpa
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:lol: You have a valid point Mr. Hamm.
No, he doesn't. God is fully capable of recompensing to me any money I was 'scammed' out of by TWI or anyone else. If the people at TWI misused the money I freely gave that is their problem, not mine and very likely God will hold them accountable. Right now I have no reason to think that the group I am involved with is misusing my gifts in any way, and no one has suggested that it is incumbent on me to give ANYTHING nor have I myself ever taken it upon myself to suggest to anyone that it is incumbent upon them to give ANYTHING. The projects that I know my gifts have been used for have my full support, not that is really any of anyone's business to criticize. What does any of the money that you donate get used for, or is the reality that you no longer give anything?
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I remember a time when 'in the household' was not a part of the definition of agape, so that must have come later. In 1 Peter 1:22 it says "Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love each other with a pure heart fervently:". In the first part of this verse the word 'love' and the word 'purified' are the words 'phileo' and 'hagnizo' respectively and refer to human qualities or efforts. In the second part of the verse the words 'pure' and 'love' are the words 'katharos' and 'agape' respectively and refer to qualities that are reserved to God. To me this verse suggests that the people to whom Peter was writing had already gone as far as they could go on a human level and now needed to go on to love on a spiritual level. In 2 Peter 1:5-7 it says "And besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to
godliness brotherly kindness (phileo); and to brotherly kindness (phileo) charity (agape)". It suggests that there is a process that begins with faith (the new birth or believing) and ends with agape that believers need to go through to, as it says in verse 8, "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall niether be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ". So I would conclude from these two places in the Bible as well as 1 Cor. 13 that agape does not represent arrogance but is probably a quality or level of love that we need God's help to attain.
BTW, good post T-bone. Food for thought.
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BikerBabe,
Great post. Thanks for sharing your insight. I never thought about it from your perspective. I have found that when dealing with people who are dealing with tremendous physical pain or a death in the family, etc., that even taking their hand and saying something along the lines of 'I don't know what to say to you' at least indicates that you're there for them if they need to talk or vent. At least most of the people I've dealt with seemed to be encouraged by it.
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Let’s say I’m a great witness and I run a class of 10 every month. That’s $15 each month. May not be much to you, Jeanyouare, but that’s my milk budget and to me that’s significant.
I don’t know that I know a better way off the top of my head, but this smells like a scam to me. It doesn’t sound at all Christlike to me.
For one thing, the percentage we were talking about was in regard to the ABS, not the charge for taking the class. For another the usual charge for taking the class was $25.00, not $100.00, and that covered materials for the class, refreshments, and other extraneous expenses involved in the class. I really like the idea that at least 85% of the ABS stays right in the area where it was generated and can be used for needs in that area, rather than what was the case in TWI; where ALL the ABS went to headquarters and very little of it ever found it's way back. As I've said before, the ABS in our area has been used to help various people who for one reason or another found themselves under financial pressure. It sounds pretty Christlike to me. In the gospels, it refers to Judas as being the treasurer (or keeper of the bag) for the group but it never (as far as I know) says how that money was generated, so even Christ carried money around for some purpose apparently. At least my ABS isn't currently ending up in TWI's coffers of millions.
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Jean, ultimately all humans will fall short and disappoint so it is very smart to place your trust in God. It is true that some good things came out of my involvement with TWI as well. But as I said and I believe you have as well, those good things can be attributed to individuals and not the ministry as a whole (ultimately God takes the credit but I think you understand what I am saying).
The milk is a great analogy to illustrate this phenomena. As it isn't all sour. And not everyone that shops at the same store will come away with sour milk. A different day of the week or a different supervisor or any number of variables will change the outcome. But the bottom line remains the same. The store is responsible to provide what it advertises. If the store feels that the product is faulty then they talk to the dairy and so on. But the store still bears a certain amount of responsibility.
In similar fashion the ministry advertised several products. They delivered on a few of them. But it seemed that the deeper or more involved you became the less likely you were to recieve that for which you paid.
Yes, the good things can be attributed to individuals, and so can the bad things, and not the ministry as a whole. My WOW year was a nightmare, and I was profoundly grateful for it to be over; but yet I learned many good things during that year, and I would never blame the program as a whole for my bad experience. The program delivered what I had signed on the line for (and much more), and that wasn't negated by the behavior of the other members of my 'family'. As I think John has said, some of the best people I have ever met have been Corp grads, and some of the biggest a$$holes also. I think that as the ministry became more and more worldly, the quality of the leadership diminished. One gentleman I had the privilege of knowing was a 2nd Corp grad and he was one of the finest people I have ever met; a man of great integrity who talked the walk, and walked the talk. I have also known men of lesser integrity who went out of their way to believe lies about me and my family. As I believe both of us have said at different times, our obligation to 'obey' our leadership is premised on the idea that they are ministers to us for good. It is the same principle as the ones that govern the relation of parent and child; 'Children, obey your parents in the Lord", and "Fathers, provoke not your children to wrath". The Word once again functions as a "two-edged sword", not merely one-edged.
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Maybe this is
but why would you have to have a license to teach the word according to Geer?
I think the license allows you to offer the classes he teaches, and I guess I think 15% of 10% doesn't really work out to very much money.
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Hmm. The milk, the milk..
I think the expiration date on twi milk might be about twenty years or so off the mark..
I really WISH they'd give a refund..
They are still selling the same milk, claim it is fresh as today's Wall Street Journal..
You're right socks, about all that is left is give the store a piece of our mind..
Well, not all the milk is sour. I continue to believe that what I was taught of the Word works in my life. I think the 'store' DID sell me milk that was fresh. As I have said many times before; everything I said I wanted when I signed the green card, I received in PFAL. Men may have let me down, and they may have to answer for that; but God never has, and I continue to place my trust in Him.
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....Oops, double post
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Is "Free Will" even a biblical concept? what are its boundries?
A preliminary word search reveals that the two words, 'free' and 'will' are used in conjunction mostly in the Old Testament and are used in terms of 'freewill offerings'. The main uses seem to be in the books of the law which describe the difference between 'freewill offerings' and those used to pay a vow. Lev. 23:23- "Either a bullock or a lamb that hath anything superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted." The other uses seem to be along the same line. I don't see the two words used in conjunction in Genesis, in relation to the creation of Adam and Eve; nor in the New Testament, in the Church epistles; but this is a very preliminary word search that I need to put on hold for the time being. My daughter wants to use the computer. Good luck.
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It's a copyright lawsuit:
The Way International v. Rose
mddce
8:2006cv01194
5/12/2006
The Way International v. Rose
Case Number: 8:2006cv01194
Filed: May 12, 2006
Court: Maryland District Court
Office: Greenbelt Office [ Court Info ]
Presiding Judge: Judge Deborah K. Chasanow
Referring Judge: Magistrate Judge Jillyn K. Schulze
Nature of Suit: Intellectual Property - Copyrights
Cause: 17:101 Copyright Infringement
Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff
This was all I could find...
It sounds like it might be a lawsuit filed by TWI against someone.
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So, any idea what the $2000 a year goes to?
I have no idea. I think if I cared enough to find out, an accounting would be given me, but right at this point I haven't cared enough to find out and I'm not sure I care enough now. My attitude in giving is to allow God to bless my life and the lives of my family. If CG or any other minister is mis-using the ABS that is their problem and they will no doubt have to answer to God for it. Besides, I don't even know if the figure you mentioned ($2000) is even accurate.
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Jeaniam, do you think it a bit odd for a minister to set a 15 minute time limit for believers to hang around and visit with each other after a meeting? I do. What a control freak. He clearly doesn't enjoy what he's doing, imo, if he's running people off like that.
Yes, I do, but that isn't the case in the fellowship I now attend. The leaders in the fellowship I am currently a part of enjoy the company of the believers, and encourage them to stay around and visit for as long as they want (with certain rare exceptions). They are a very loving group of people. The leader I was describing in my other post wasn't even affiliated with CG.
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Mstar, I agree. I was gone also. This was a Geer group. Jeaniam, it sounds like your group is a little different. But don't they have to give CG 15% of the abundant sharing?
The rev here didn't just "administer" the money. It was understood this was his ministry and he decided where it went. He was set up like TWI with two other people on the board. I was told by a primary source that one boardmember always went along with the rev so the other boardmember's vote did not make a difference.
It sure looked like he used the offering for his family and himself. Everyone was afraid to say anything about it or even inquire. I wondered why people would tithe to him. He had a Sunday morning fellowship (teaching same old same old) and a leader's fellowship once a week and he was done. On Sunday's you didn't dare hang around long enough to talk to him because it was understood no one should interfere with his Sunday noon meal. They ran the Geer classes in other people's homes so he wasn't inconvenienced by that (what a complete and utter bore and waste of time that class was in my opinion).
To me the salary seemed out of proportion for a part time job. He would make sarcastic remarks about giving to charities the way we did in The Way so he wasn't giving to charities. Occasionally he would invite other ex way heavy reavys to come here to teach. A building was rented and the followers had to pay a registration fee to attend.
In my opinion, if the followers were cut off for even 6 months, they would break their codependency and see they could lead lives of their own. Then they would wonder what they had been doing all of those years just following along and turning over their free will by asking someone else for advice about all of their decisions. They might even find a godly use for their money either for their own retirement or for a good cause. I don't think God wants the ex way revs set for life and the rest of us poor and penniless when retirement rolls around. Again that's my opinion.
After that I attended several other ex way minister's groups but was not ever involved for long enough in any of them to notice what they did with the money. So that's why I was curious. I've always wondered if the Geer heavy revy was the norm or the exception.
Thanks WordWold and Keith also. Interesting perspectives.
I'm not sure about the 15%. I think they send CG a set sum of money once a year for a 'license' but I don't think it's excessive. The gentleman who administers the ABS in our area as far as I know doesn't have a stock portfolio, and I believe he and his wife work very hard to support themselves and their five children.
I've been to fellowships like the one you describe in that the leader in question didn't really want people to stay around after fellowship for any length of time (in one the leader imposed a 15 minute time limit) I like the fellowship I am currently attending because the leaders seem to really enjoy the company of other believers, and encouage them to remain for an indefinite amount of time.
Can you define the statement about the Geer heavy revy being the norm or the exception? I'm not sure I understand fully.
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You'll have to take that up with twi.
Everytime something "Not the best" happens at twi they scrutinize every action, decision, and thought you made or supposedly made. They use free will to put blame on you and thus requiring that you increase your submission to them (because you're admitting you screwed up and need them). I was just pointing out the obvious that their practice follows their doctrine.
True, nowadays. I still think it's a shame that what started off as a very good thing could sink to such depths.
Need help thinking this through: Agape? or Arrogance?
in About The Way
Posted
I guess it is questionable if we can legitimately say that you love God whom we have not seen if we don't love our neighbor whom we have seen. Just a thought.
I meant it metaphorically. 'Walked on' as in being tortured and died, although I think there were times that he had plans to go into the wilderness and pray and had to change his plans because the multitude followed him and interrupted him.