Jeaniam

I was wondering about this.

twi says "magnified His Word above His name"

Is this a biblical statement, what's it mean, and if it is in the bible what's really mean?

It is a Biblical statement. It's found in Psalm 138:2- "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." I vaguely recall some analogy about the way we in this day and time sign a check or a contract, but I could be making that up, as it sounds remarkably like private interpretation.

I finished Idiot Test 2 (on the sixth try) but I had to write it down. My daughter did pretty well on the Genius Test.

I made it through the idiot test one, but it took me five tries.

I made it up to average on the second one.

It changed my prayer life for the better because I was raised in a very condemnatory church that didn't present me with a picture of God as a loving Father who had any real interest in me or my needs, but on the other hand made people sick to 'keep them humble', and killed people whenever He felt like it. When I was very young I was so afraid of God that I was afraid to go to sleep at night lest God should decide to kill me in my sleep, and I wouldn't be good enough to go to Heaven. My own father didn't help much either because he was a very cold, critical person. So the teachings of TWI were very liberating for me. It seems to me that prayer is a form of believing (or faith) and that the two are linked i.e. Mark 11:22-26, James 4:2&3. In Mark prayer & believing are also linked to forgiveness; and in James it says 'you have not, because you ask not' and there is no reference to believing at all. All that said there were times in the later days of TWI when I was nervous about praying publicly be cause I felt as if my prayers (and manifestations) were under a microscope, which was later proved to be true. This same attitude has prevailed in some of the offshoots that we have been affiliated with. There have been times when a "leader' saw fit to critique my prayers or manifestations in front of the whole assembled body of believers without coming to me in private first. I think that both prayer (with the understanding and tongues) and believing are necessary in that in order to receive anything from God you have to ask Him for it. I wouldn't be so worried about the form of your prayers and so critical of them, just continue to pray and little by little you'll get better at it, and continue to pray perfectly in tongues. I hope this helped at least a little bit.

And what TrustAndObey said works too.

I think that was one of the most devilishly ingrained beliefs TWI shoved down our throats. It was as foundational a TWI doctrine as one could find.

TWI turned our expectations away from God, and focused them on men and our own works. I had to DO something to GET something. God wasn't going to give me crap unless I performed the rituals in the correct manner!! And if I didn't get what I decided I needed, it was my own fault...I did something wrong...I didn't believe enough...and the leadership, of course, were quick to point that out to me!!

How many times did God offer me what I needed, and I blew it off as a wrong result because I wasn't "believing" for THAT!! Talk about frustrating the grace of God!!!

Well, my bible says he will supply ALL my needs according to His riches in glory. If that's true, I don't need to DO anything to recieve anything...except have faith that HE will provide for me no matter what situation I'm in, and LOOK for the solution He provides....which may not be what I want or expect, but will be what I need.

Now, that makes for some exciting living! At least, I think so.

Good post. Many times God is more than willing to meet the REAL need but we are the ones to frustrate Him because we weren't 'believing' for what God was sending us. I remember once that I needed a pair of winter boots and I thought that I needed to 'believe' for the money to buy them, but God had a complete stranger walk up to me on the street and give me a brand new pair. Also, it sometimes seems to me that we are limiting God by restricting Him to financial prosperity. I once had a situation in which I gave a believer a picking of beans out of my garden, which resulted in my not having enough for my family for the winter. I left the plants in the ground and waited, and in about two weeks the plants began to produce again, and the second bearing was not only enough for my needs; I gave them away to my mother, my sister, some of my aunts, and ended up putting them out by the street in bushel baskets with a sign saying 'free beans'. Talk about a literal fulfillment of the promise in Malachi. Yes, very exciting living!

We have always continued to tithe, but over the years since we left TWI, we were forced to be pretty creative with it. Some-times we gave it to a church; sometimes we just set it aside and gave it to people in need; sometimes we gave it in other ways. I'm not so sure that God cares WHERE you give as much as He cares THAT you give.

Well, yes, sometimes I struggled with the question 'Am I believing in this situation or do I have fear?' In those situations I tried to draw close to God and His love for me (perfect love casts out fear), and sometimes in my prayers I would use the cry of the man with the possessed son (Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief!). I still sometimes use that prayer today because I continue to believe that 'believing equals receiving'.

Someone once taught me that when you have your mind well furnished with the written Word (line upon line, verse upon verse, horizontally and vertically, like a brick wall) genuine revelation is that which comes in diagonally or across the grain. I don't really believe it's possible to receive revelation 24/7. I don't think God cares that much about when you do your grocery shopping or when you do your laundry.

For years as they passed by, I saw the noose growing tighter around husbands and the fathers..The doctrine became very choking for the women too..It 's the was taught that the women carry the heart to the family...so when the doctrine became so stiffling I saw family's becoming more robotic and it lacked the luster im sure God wanted..the men became strickened instead of carrying on in a normal sence of his god given abilities,therefore a life of real quality

..awee you married ones didnt know we singles could see it..

That's very true. There was a time late in our involvement when we were held in contempt as a couple because I knew what size tires were on the car, and John was capable of changing a diaper. I had friends who were afraid to leave their children with their own husbands at the ROA lest they should be accused of being ungodly.

WordWolf, you and I agreeing on something!!! Say it ain't so.

A related story:

Three years ago Missouri passed a law allowing average citizens to have conceal carry permits. One local radio guy I listen to a lot said recently that when the law was first passed, he was thinking that Missouri would be like that movie 'High noon' and somebody would bump into somebody else in a bar and a gunfight would break out and it would be like the old west. Well, to date nothing even remotely like that has happened. This radio guy is a liberal democrat leaning guy, but he admitted he was wrong about this.

Isn't that disgusting Bolshevik? It assumes that there is a spiritually perfect thing to do in any given situation. And since your leaders are more spiritually sharp than you are, surely they will know what God would have me to do for my life. And because you know how screwed up your own life is, you think, "Well, they are the leadership and have it more together than I do". In reality, they were just as screwed up as the rest of us.

Hmmm, maybe when I go to the bathroom this morning I should wipe to the right side, seeing as the right side is the side of blessing and all. Oh look, God's tellin' me we shouldn't go to McDonald's tonight. And before you know it, it's, "God told me to say to you...".

I think a lot of people live in this spiritual fantasy land waiting to hear from God moment by moment, when in reality, revelation comes rarely. For the most part, God "leaves you alone" in life, leaving you free to experience your life and have good times.

He may call on you occasionally or may have something to say, and when he does, you'll know it. Other than that, you're free to live your life, something I'm sure many Christians would never dare believe. Some would have us think God expects us to be on some sort of intense, heightened state of alert, always trying to "tune in" to God's will and ward of any devil spirits that may be around.

This is Christian mysticism.

Lone Wolf McQuade

I have heard it taught that those people who constantly claim that God is giving them moment by moment revelation on how to live life are people who are getting it wrong. As you say, Lone Wolf, direct revelation comes rarely. But God has given us a 'rule book', the Bible, which is in itself revelation from God that has been written down.

Thanks, Bolshevik, for your post. I really don't think God cares very much in this day and time what anyone has for breakfast.

Non sequitur, in that the lives of church leadership *can* affect the way followers think even if it doesn't affect official doctrine.

In traditional churches, the life of leadership has little to nothing to do with doctrine.

In non-traditional churches, where one charismatic leader focuses the entire drive of the church, that individual becomes both the official and unofficial doctrine. For example, how many TWI believers tried Drambouie because it was VPW's drink of choice? Perhaps not a doctrine issue, but an example of how the flock was led by insignificant issues.

I know there were many followers of TWI who tried to be a carbon copy of VPW (copied his jokes about thin India paper in the Bible, drank Drambouie, etc.). I always thought the gift of holy spirit was at least in part to enable me to be more myself than a carbon copy of VPW. I mean that the unique 'Christ in me' was designed specifically for me, jeaniam, and wouldn't fit any other believer; and was designed to magnify and enhance the good things about my personality to the end that I was fully equipped for my unique role in the Body of Christ, which no one else (not even VPW) could do as well as I could. BTW I do drink Drambouie, but I started drinking it pre-TWI.

BTW, Mark, in recent years when Charles and Diana wanted a divorce, one of the obstacles was that the official position of the Church of England is that divorce is a sin; a position of remarkable hypocrisy considering its origin.

I know I am late to the thread but those two books mentioned in the first post sound like very interesting reading. Thanks for mentioning them, Abigail.

"In looking at the biblical evidence for the deity of Christ, we begin with Jesus' own self-consciousness. What did Jesus think and believe about himself?...We should note that Jesus did not make an explicit and overt claim to deity. He did not say in so many words, "I am God." What we do find, however, are claims which would be inappropriate if made by someone who is less than God. For example, Jesus said that he would send "his angels [Matthew 13:41]; elsewhere they are spoken of as "the angels of God" [Luke 12:8-9; 15:10]. That reference is particularly significant, for not only the angels but also the kingdom is spoken of as his: "The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and evildoers." This kingdom is repeatedly referred to as the kingdom of God, even in Matthew's Gospel, where one would expect to find "kingdom of heaven" instead.

More significant yet are the prerogatives which Jesus claimed. In particular, his claim to forgive sins resulted in a charge of blasphemy against him. When the paralytic was lowered through the roof by his four friends, Jesus did not respond with a comment about the man's physical condition or his need for healing. Rather, his initial comment was, "My son, your sins are forgiven" [Mark 2:5]. The reaction of the scribes indicates the meaning attached to his words: "Why does this man speak thus? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"… [page 684]

…Jesus claimed other prerogatives as well. In Matthew 25:31-46 he speaks of judging the world. He will sit on his glorious throne and divide the sheep from the goats. The power of judging the spiritual condition and assigning the eternal destiny of all people belongs to him. Certainly this is a power which only God can exercise…

…The authority which Jesus claimed and exercised is also clearly seen with respect to the Sabbath. The sacredness of the Sabbath had been established by God [Exodus 20:8-11]. Only God could abrogate or modify this regulation. Yet consider what happened when Jesus' disciples picked heads of grain on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees objected that the Sabbath regulations [at least their version of them] were being violated. Jesus responded by pointing out that David had violated one of the laws by eating of the bread reserved for the priests. Then, turning directly to the situation at hand, Jesus asserted: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath; so the Son of man is lord even of the Sabbath" [Mark 2:27-28]. He was clearly claiming the right to redefine the status of the Sabbath, a right which belongs only to someone virtually equal to God…[page 685]

…There are additional indications of Jesus' self-estimation. One is the way in which he juxtaposes his words with the Old Testament, the Scripture of his time. Time and again he says, "You have heard that it was said,…but I say to you…" [e.g., Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28]. Here Jesus presumes to place his word on the same level as Old Testament Scripture. It might be argued that this was merely a claim to be a prophet of the same stature as the Old Testament prophets. It is notable, however, that they based their claim to authority upon what God had said or was saying to and through them. Thus, one finds the characteristic formula, "The word of the Lord came to me saying…" [e.g., Jeremiah 1:11; Ezekiel 1:3]. Jesus, however, does not cite any formula in setting forth his teaching. He simply says, "I say to you…" Jesus is claiming to have the power in himself to lay down teachings as authoritative as that given by the Old Testament prophets.

…Jesus also by implication, direct statement, and deed indicates that he has power over life and death. Hannah in her song of praise credits God with having the power to kill and make alive . In Psalm 119, the psalmist acknowledges about a dozen times that it is Jehovah who gives and preserves life. In John 5:21 Jesus claims this power for himself: "For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will." Perhaps the most emphatic statement is found in his words to Martha, "I am the resurrection and life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall live" [John 11:25].

Jesus specifically applied to himself expressions which conveyed his self-understanding. One of these is "Son of God."…It signified that Jesus had a relationship to the Father distinct from that of any other human. That Jesus was thereby claiming a unique sonship…was understood by the Jews. We read in John 5:2-18, for example, that they reacted with great hostility when, in defense of his having healed on the Sabbath, Jesus linked his work with that of the Father. As John explains, "This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal to God" [verse 18]. From all the foregoing, it seems difficult, except on the basis of a certain type of critical presupposition, to escape the conclusion that Jesus understood himself as equal with the Father, and as possessing the right to do things which only God has the right to do…" [page 687, 688]

End of excerpts

In reference to the authority that Christ claimed to have, there is one explanation in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, where it refers to the authority of Christ being given to him by God; and only for a finite length of time, as there will come a time in the future when ' the Son shall also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all'. It seems to me possible that Jesus understood himself as possessing the right to do things which only God has the right to do because God gave him that right as a result of that distinct relationship with the Father. I would agree that the personal relationship with God is the big deal and that those in TWI who were only interested in researching the Bible without grasping the point that the real goal of the research is to know God certainly missed the boat.

Great post. Nice after Easter insight. Thanks for sharing.

I've always thought the basic unit for worshipping God is the individual, and the basic unit of a society, or church, is the family.

A valid point, but right now I am not just an individual who wants to worship God; I am also a member of a family, having taken on the role of wife and mother.

Yes, the basic unit of worship is the family, but right now my family and I are involved with Rev. Geer and his ministry and I enjoy the way he has things set up; no 'root' locale, just many small groups of people that are completely independant. The abundant sharing stays in each area rather than being sent to 'headquarters', and is used to address needs in each area as they arise (i.e. one family has an unexpected medical expense, another family has a fire in their home, etc. etc.). It seems to me that was the way TWI first started out but later turned into a big corporation.

I think TWI taught me the keys I needed to be able to research the scriptures (PFAL was a class on keys, if I remember correctly), but I certainly do not claim to understand the whole Bible (or anything close to it). The 'manifold wisdom of God' is such that I can look at a verse once and see one thing, and come back to the same verse a year or two later and see more depth that I missed the first time. I think that TWI taught a great deal of practical information about how to live life, at least I remember learning a lot about how to live love (although I fall short a great deal of the time). I didn't have the privilege of waysider; my parents were very harsh, bitter people, and I had to unlearn most of what they taught me while in TWI, but I agree that the practical side is what matters most to me rather than the head knowledge.

quote: geometric spiritual design.

That's got to be right up there with "reasonable spiritual suspicion".

I would agree that there seems to be a huge double standard at work here.

All you can do it take care of your actions - as long as you live solely in response to another they have the control.

Still not pointing fingers......just stating my views.

Interesting parallel to some of you live and VPW. Not pointing fingers...just making an observation.

i find this tiresome sorry

it could be because i'm thinking of your other post which i responded to, jean

And I responded to your response, Tag, you're it.

Doojable,

You make some valid points. I wasn't talking about you in the comment about God. You have always impressed me as one of the more sane and level-headed posters.

Dear Jeaniam and Johniam, 1st of all, I do love you both even though I disagree with You both. IMHO,The vast majority are testifing and trying to heal and so much more ..not lying. On this subject does anyone really have all the answers? Isn't that the right direction...a discussion not a war? Maybe I am just the dumbestest one on the planet, as that's my goal here to learn to grow to change and to trust and to heal; and to help not to hurt! At least could you look at hearts one by one please? There is never going to be one overall view that covers it all on any matter.

I Love You All, RG

I never meant to accuse ANYONE of lying nor to imply that I had concluded that anyone was. No, I do not believe that on this subject anyone really has all the answers, nor that there is one overall view that covers it all. That was actually the point I was trying to make.

Excathedra, you're right I left that possibility (among others) out. That was an oversight, not by design, for which I apologize. The whole post was intended to amplify and explain my position, which is a reluctance to elect myself God on this issue. There are already enough posters who seem to want that job and seem to think they could do a better job than the One who has it now.

Context Jean - there was a time when he was a man after God's own heart. Then he turned away from God and the result was horrendous.

He did not turn away for any great length of time. In 1 Kings 15:3 it refers to David as a man whose "heart was perfect with the Lord his God", and that was after his death. I will concede that the results of his disobedience with Bathsheba were horrendous.