Jeaniam

Back to David being a spiritual guy or not, in 1 Sam. 30 David is still basically a fugitive from Saul and he had been with Achish a Phillistine and told that the lords of the Phillistines favored him not. So he and his men came back to Ziklag and found the city burned and their wives stolen. In v. 7 he requests the Ephod to inquire of God. This was a successful thing; but wasn't the Ephod worn by the high priest? Why did David even HAVE the thing? Not bad for a guy who was public enemy #1 at the time.

This is John. We forgot to switch AGAIN. Mea Culpa. Our bad.

I didn`t know that he did that. Sure adds a new perspective to my opinion of this man.

And, yet AFTER all of that (not because of but after) he was referred to as a man after God's own heart.

No one is asking you to elect yourself as God. But God did give you the ability to induce and deduce logically from a given set of facts.

This dance is getting old - don't you think? I'm not sure why you're so resistant to putting this together. With all the research tools you hold so near and dear, you should have figured this out long ago.

I consider various possibilities when it comes to VPW's alleged sexual abuse. One of them IS that some of them are lying (No, I am not calling any one specific person a liar). One of them is that some of these women saw an opportunity to sleep their way to the top (and once again I am not talking about any one specific person). One of them is that some of these women read something into a situation that wasn't intended (and once again I am not talking about any specific person). There was one occasion where a married man occasionally made lewd remarks in my presence and directed to me, and I became disturbed and spoke to his wife, and his wife's best friend on the subject. The answer I was given was that the gentleman in question meant nothing whatsoever by his behavior, was not propositioning me, and had never been unfaithful to his wife. All of this I found out later to be true, and we are good friends to this day. All of this verbiage brings me once again to the conclusion that only One knows the whole truth about what went on all those years ago, and He isn't talking. And, no, I am not asking for anyone to repeat any horror strories in an effort to change my mind. It is my opinion that by this endless debate under the guise of this alleged "quest for the truth" we may very well be doing more harm than good when people reopen wounds that should be left to heal. On this point it might be better to agree to disagree and let it go at that. And, no, I do not worship VPW, and as I have pointed out somewhere else, I don't even think about him very much. When I pray, I don't think about him; when I SIT, I don't think about him; when I read the Bible, I don't think about him: I think about God. I have spent for more time thinking about him since I have begun spending time on Greasespot, than I had in years. For people who hate him as much as you do, you sure spend an awful lot of time talking about him.

Great post, Eyes Open. You make a number of excellent points. You go, girl!!!!

That's beside the point. How John treats you isn't really what this thread is about. I'm happy he treats you well. I'm sure you both have your relationship worked out.

Now - what about how others get treated?

Just responding to what someone else saw fit to bring up. And I am still not willing to elect myself God.

Uuuh yeah...I um can really see that in the way he treats his sisters ... He is just a real cuddly sweet heart

Yes, actually he is.

I had always felt sorry for johniam's wife, but now I see it was totally unnecessary as he married a female version of himself. God help the rest of their family.

No need. John is one of the best husbands and fathers you will ever meet.

How can it, when you've already made up your mind? You don't care!

I said that about the alleged plagiarism and ONLY the alleged plagiarism.

I`ll tell you what it may not have been YOUR daughter...but they were certainly dearly beloved children of God......GOD`s kids that it happened to, time and again....and fortunately HE doesn`t minimalise the outrage and evil perpetrated against one of HIS daughters by an evil sob in HIS name.

I think that you guys are heartless and have no compassion for what was endured by your sisters and brothers. You want simply to defend the evil perpetrator. That is disturbing.

Your own behavior is only damaging the case you want to make.

My daughter is not relevant to this disussion.

I'm beginning to think that Jean and John are enjoying stirring things up around here. They respond to logic and common sense with inane, disjointed remarks that insense others. There are no real discussions with them, no exchange of ideas, or even respectful responses from them...just jabs, insults, and jumps to illogical conclusions. This, IMHO, is troll-like behaviour...baiting posters to watch the flurry of activity while sitting back and snickering as the GSCers' responses roll in. That's what it looks like to me, anyway.

We're not trying to stir any thing up. This is a thread about the GOOD things VPW did for TWI. Sunesis, Wordwolf, and Rascal have nothing to add to a thread on that subject. Maybe if they got honest, they'd do what Greasy Tech did and leave.

BTW, They are NOT trying to convince me with logic and facts. They're trying to inflame our emotions with a hypothetical post using our daughter as bait, hoping we'll get so angry that we'll lose sight of the facts and just respond emotionally, "By God if that SOB ever did that to MY daughter, I'd wring his neck and boil him in hot oil. Death would be too good for him. I'd, I'd, I'd kill him one very painful way, and then I'd bring back to life so I could kill him another very painful way." That's the response they're hoping to provoke, and it might very well be true. My daughter is very precious to me and I guard her very carefully, but she is not really relevant to this discussion; VPW was dead for 5 years before she was born.

What WON`T you do to ignore the evidence and confuse the issue?

Number ONE Sunesis is a girl .....

Number TWO the only fanatsizing going on there was in YOUR mind.....she simply related the mo of vp. YOU are the one who made that into something ugly and perverted...

How about being offended with the freaking pervert that COMMITTED these atrocities...instead if getting your panties in a twist over the folks that are telling what the freak did to them????

Number THREE....this is what happened to MANY mens teen aged daughters at the hands of vpw...but hey I understand...as long as it wasn`t your kiddo,I suppose then it doesn`t count.

You cannot deal with the truth so you have to make up lies about everybody else in order to live within the parameters of your tiny little universe...

As far as I know someone can be a girl AND a pervert. So, the alleged MO of VPW wasn't ugly and perverted? She wasn't just relating her own alleged experience. She was posing a situation that isn't even available since my daughter wasn't born until VPW had been dead for 5 years.

quote: Maybe the real question that should be asked is what good things did VPW do for the body of Christ?...

I'll vote for 'Are the Dead Alive Now'. During his last SNS teaching at HQ, not even one month before he died, he reaffirmed that ADAN was the most important thing he ever taught, IHO. Before TWI I kind of leaned toward reincarnation, but his presentation of ADAN just made sense; still does.

Once in a conversation with believers, we were all talking about which topic was more critical, JCING or ADAN. One guy said, "Which one has more devil spirits associated with it?", the obvious answer being ADAN. That song off the first Breakthrough recording paints a desperate picture of people trying to somehow get in touch with departed loved ones driving themselves crazy in the process. I haven't known many people like that, but the ones I HAVE known stand out. They just can't enjoy life; they're in bondage. ADAN delivers people from this. That's a good thing IMO.

You're being given the information now and you don't care now.

In this situation, not only is one of the main participants dead, they both are. And I am not egotistical enough to believe that at this late date my opinion matters AT ALL.

If no anecdotal evidence is produced, how can anyone possibly remember the good or bad things VPW did for The Way Ministry?

"Hey! I'm just sayin'------Stop yellin' at me!"

It's a string of misunderstandings that involve something that happened on a different thread, and got carried over to this one. In a general sense on this thread I do want people to tell their stories of the good things that happened in TWI. In a certain narrow specific sense on a different thread, I don't. And that's as much detail as I am prepared to go into.

You are ignoring several people that have told you what happened.....their *version* is the same as my own.

I do not believe that you are honest jean. There were a lot of people that took you at face value when you said that you wanted the truth.

I recall saying that I didn't (and don't) think the whole truth is available at this late date. For the rest I think once again that these people read something into my posts that I didn't intend. I don't think I ever said or implied that I wanted any one to retell their story of whatever did or didn't happen in TWI.

Why do you call it my universe?? Are you in an alternate one??? I have simply TOLD you what happened in twi. What problem do you have with reality?

You have told me your VERSION of what happened in TWI. And I have told you repeatedly my experience in TWI was very different. You have your explanation for that and I have mine. I don't think that means I have a problem with reality; I think it means that I am not going to run to ascribe the worst possible motivation to everyone I meet.

The context was caring about the crimes vpw committed-

"his lying

his plagiarism

his abuses both sexual

and mental"

You don't care about THAT.

You even quoted that YOURSELF.

.

Actually I didn't say precisely that. Someone else took it upon themselves to embellish what I said. You need to pay attention and make sure you're reading accurately

Here we go again.

Hopefully not. I really have no intention of getting sucked into Rascal's and Word Wolf's universe on this thread.

Jeaniam, just out of curiosity, if it was your daughter who had had sex with vp and you found out about it, would you care about that?

I am not talking about that, I am only talking about his alleged plagiaism. That happened even more years ago than the other stuff, I know nothing about it, and I am not willing to get sucked into an endless debate on the subject. Since I KNOW that no one died and elected ME God while I was napping, I am once again not going to take it upon myself to sit in judgment, especially not on this topic.

And that my friends, is one reason why Wierwille was able to get away with his lying, his plagiarism, his abuses both sexual and mental. Enough people who knew, didn't care.

I don't fall into the catagory of people who knew and didn't care. Right now I am only talking about his alleged plagiarism, not anything else.

And by the way, back off the stalking, the community here will not tolerate it. If you stalk full Circle some of us will stalk you until you stop it.

Welcome to the spot

As far as the "stalking" goes, this is a thread started by someone who wanted to say something good about VPW. Isn't it amazing that within the first few posts, there came Rascal and the thought police to make sure THAT didn't continue.

It takes real courage to read to honestly discuss, and to consider the topic at hand.

Do you mean like dotmatrix's sterling example?

THAT isn`t what makes you offensive John.....stop kidding yourself..lol :)

It is when you insist on calling people liars and sociopaths for being mad at their bad treatment from someone that we should have been able to safely trust that people get a little testy.

Has jean had the guts to read sunisis or dot`s first hand accounts of experiences with vp yet?

No. Nothing to do with guts though. Still just really not interested enough.

....and yet you presume to know more than the people who DID interact with them on a daily basis

Did you have the courage to read sunesis` account? She is not the only reputable poster here who saw and experienced the same thing.

Face it...All you EVER saw was the shined up polished *public* side that they wanted you to see.

Jean, your answer didn`t make any sense about in the beginning. How does that line up with what Jesus taught and what is in galatians 5? It seems like you have to dismiss an awfull lot of scripture to maintain your pov.

I don't presume anything. I have said from the beginning that I don't know and I am not prepared to take it upon myself to sit in judgment as you have. There is only One who knows the whole truth about what happened 20 or 30 years ago and He's not talking. I am appalled that you in your arrogance and hubris take it upon yourself to pry into other people's pain under the guise of "We need to get at the truth".

I didn't have the INTEREST to read her account. Considering my only interaction with her, I'm not so sure I'm going to concede that she's a reputable poster.

All I ever saw was men and women of integrity trying to do their best for God and His Word. I don't concede that that falls under the category of the "shined up polished public side".

And, finally, that wasn't me, that was John. You need to pay attention.

They kept EVERYTHING. "birth to da corpses" paper, "evaluations", "leaders" comments and impressions.

Personally, I'd be kinda "creeped out" to find the then "mog" had his greasy fingers on MY personal data, thinking of the "possibilities".

No such paper on me exists because I never wrote one.

That is shallow and vey lemming of you.

So what. STILL don't really care.