Jeaniam

Sometimes it is useful to look at other translations. Nearly every translation I checked other than KJV translates "law of liberty" as "perfect law".

And to the Jews, the law/Torah is perfect and does give freedom. Sounds contradictory I now, but it so.

The first usage in James 1:25 even in the KJV uses the phrase 'perfect law of liberty'. Jesus seemed to recognize the freedom in the law/Torah in various places in the gospels when he pointed out that 'the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath' and other places. Good point.

I see what you mean Temple lady...lol

Well said way sider...WELL said :)

Hmmm indeed Bramble.

Do you and Bramble really enjoy being victims as much as you appear to. You were 'victims' in TWI and now here you are being 'victimized' again just because someone disagrees with you (despite the fact the you initiate the confrontation just as often as not).

Oh and Jean that really wasn't very nice dear.

Well, considering that in that one post she made 15 errors in spelling and punctuation, maybe it was justified. Unfortunately, poor spelling and punctuation detract from the points she is trying to make, and cause her to look like an uneducated, or overemotional buffoon.

I think the definition we were once given says it about as well as anything. I also believe that it really is true that in order to operate discerning of spirits correctly, you must operate with a great deal of love.

John you completely mischaracterized my point in attempt to belittle my statement.

You are a big boy and I am certain, capable of legitimately making your own comments without lying about someone elses pov.

It is rediculous to think that you understand why myself or anybody else returns here or even more silly, what is healthy or acceptible for anybody else.

Please try to answere for yourself, as that is the only one who`s perspective and motive you are qualified to comment on.

Why don't you take your own advice? And BTW, why don't you learn how to spell or at least install a spelling program on your computer?

I also apparently have overcome most brainwashing. Downright amazing since I never knew I was brainwashed or had anything to overcome.

God first

Beloved Jeaniam

God loves you my dear friend

all gifts are real

the Way mostly did "five-senses discerning of spirits" and that the way a lot of churches do it but that got to be a way to do it with love while helping not pointing a finger

I do not know if I am being clear but I do not want to point how we have to think but just to share what I see as I hear what others see

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

I think your point is very clear and I agree 100%.

Agreed with the above.

I made my statement sort-of on reflex. There are a lot of ex-twi people who still buy into the construct that they don't need to act in accord with James (because it's not written to us, but to the Jews). Thus mitigating the uncomfortable scripture verses that are contained in there, including the definition and application of the "law of liberty" throughout that epistle.

I have learned a great deal from the book of James because I come from a family and church that make TWI on its worst day look like a leisurely stroll in the park. My family (and church) were so legalistic that when my sixth grade teacher played 'Jesus Christ Superstar' for my class, and I made the terrible mistake of enjoying it (and admitting it at dinner); the dinnertable 'discussion' or browbeating lasted until midnight (we sat down to eat at 5:00); and the fallout lasted for several weeks (my parents went to the schoolboard and demanded he should be fired, etc., etc.,). So I have had to learn not to condemn myself for every little mistake.

Danny; certainly the new birth is not a license to live like the devil as even Paul admits in Romans 6:1&2, 'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?'

I agree with both Sunesis and JavaJane that discerning of spirits is a real manifestation of holy spirit and that it works both ways to discern both good and evil spirits. Where I think it became bogus in some people in TWI, was when people began to see 'devil spirits' under every rock. This man in his late thirties has never been married (mostly because he gave so much of his life to TWI), so he must have an homosexual spirit. Another woman leaves her cupboard doors standing slightly ajar on a regular basis, she must have a disorderly spirit. My son, who is autistic, has no medical cause for his disability (as far as they knew at the time), so his father and I must have a spirit of error, and passed it on to him. This is what I mean by five-senses discerning of spirits.

I'm in.

I find that interesting and surprising. You're right, it was few and far between. The teachings I heard may have talked about the heart, but I never heard anything about the holy spirit being able to change your heart. What I always heard was that holy spirit was for operating "all nine all the time" and having supernatural power, but it was up to my self-discipline and renewed mind to change my heart in accordance with the Word. In fact I remember asking one limb coordinator once about whether the holy spirit enables us to live a better Christian life, and he said he had never thought about that!

I had the great privilege of having a B.C., who was in the second Way Corps, for several years, and he was a remarkably wise individual. I remember a teaching he gave on Psalm 51:6-12. 'Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit'. I have prayed prayers remarkably like that in my life, with some allowances for the difference in administration. I find it interesting that David prayed for the restoration of the 'joy of thy salvation'. I believe that we can never lose salvation, but sometimes we lose sight of the sheer joy of it.

Don't fret it Jean. You're just illustrating how two can become one flesh. ;)

Thanks, Larry. BTW, did my overly serious attitude kill off the thread. I really did enjoy the comments about nuts and eggs.

I have heard it said that a believer needs great love to accurately manifest discerning of spirits, in order to be able to love the person and confront the spirit. I think most of the so-called 'discening of spirits' in TWI was bogus and nothing more than five-senses discernment that had nothing to do with God. I was involved with TWI for more than twenty years and was only directly confronted with an evil spirit once. While I do absolutely believe in the presence of an evil spirit on that one occasion, I also saw many people who were badly hurt by the bogus discerning of spirits by the representatives of TWI.

How do you figure it's not addressed to the body of Christ?

Yes, I know how to read (Jas 1:1).

It could be addressed (specifically) toward Christian churches made of of former Jews in the diaspora. It could be addressed to the new Israel in its diaspora from the New Jerusalem.

I ask because to unconverted Jews, the identification of oneself as the slave (servant) of Jesus Christ would hardly be the way to identify oneself (if the author wished to be read). And, according to St. Paul, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." If something is written toward formerly Jewish Christians, there is no reason why it would not also apply to formerly gentile Christians.

Just something to consider.

And worthy of consideration. I brought it up because of the verse that refers to many Jews as 'thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous for the law:' (Acts 21:20). It occurred to me that Jews might have special circumstances that would necessitate the reference to a 'Law of Liberty'. I have very little (or none) Biblically to back that up with except that it seems odd that the only two usages occur in a book written specifically to Jews (or Jewish Christians).

The phrase, "Law of Liberty" is only used twice in the Bible - in the epostle of James. Perhaps it would be a good idea to define what that means rather than just throw phrases around that we think we know the meaning of. While Paul said we are not under the Law of Moses, we do have a higher "law" - the Law of Christ or the Law of Liberty.

Is it significant that the only place in the Bible that the phrase 'Law of Liberty' is used is in the epistle of James, which is addressed to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, not to the body of Christ?

This thread has beome much more complicated than I was hoping for! I was attempting to find a simple answer. My one question is to Mr Wearword is how can Christ have walked the law of liberty when he was the one who had to fufill ALL of the OT law? (Including being the Passover Lamb.)

Thanks to others for helpful comments.

Once again, there was plenty of liberty in the law of Moses. The law of Moses was never intended, imho, to be a straightjacket, which Jesus Christ recognised in Matthew 12:1-13, culminating in verse 12,' How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days', and in Mark 2:23-28, 'And he said unto them, " The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath":'

Betrothal was sufficient...as she was still his responsibility.

Honestly, I don't know if the rule of adultery applied to the betrothed or only to those who have consumated marriage. But fornicating females weren't treated too well, either...

In Matthew 1:19: Joseph is referred to as Mary's husband. BTW, didn't Larry cover much of this in a previous post on Hebrew marriage customs at the time of Christ (page 5, post 92). Aside from Joseph's meekness in being willing to raise Mary's son as his own, there is also the record in which Joseph had to take Mary and Jesus to Egypt in the middle of the night to rescue them from Herod (Matthew 2:13-16).

This thread has beome much more complicated than I was hoping for! I was attempting to find a simple answer. My one question is to Mr Wearword is how can Christ have walked the law of liberty when he was the one who had to fufill ALL of the OT law? (Including being the Passover Lamb.)

Thanks to others for helpful comments.

The question is irrelevant. Jesus Christ made it possible to have the law of liberty by fulfilling the law of Moses and still being willing to die. BTW there was plenty of liberty in the Mosaic law. The Mosaic law was concerned with telling people in great detail how to worship God and how to treat your neighbor; hence it could be consolidated into two great commandments:

1). Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength

2). Love your neighbor as yourself

Can we get back to the original point of the thread "holy thing"anytime soon. I'm back from taking care of some of my technical difficulties. Thanks, one and all.

Gee...and I thought the Ark of the Covenant was the Virgin Mary.

Before you laugh too loud, please go back to the OT and identify what 3 items were contained in the ark...

A golden pot of manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant.

Again it is what you are yolked to...

Not to be too captious, but may I inquire as to what the yellow of an egg has to do with anything?

I am hoping this thread doesn’t become a trinity debate, mainly because those tend to get long. On the other hand (I have different fingers.).

We’ve established to my satisfaction, anyway, it was a virgin birth, took a PART as in flesh but not blood is false, sin isn’t in the blood, and doubt in my mind about the genealogies as taught by twi. If memory serves, we haven’t come to complete agreement on all these issues, but this is where I’m at.

Rom 1:3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Rom 1:4And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

To me, this establishes Mary was the genetic mother. “If he had had Mary's DNA - he would have been inheriting corruptible, fallen, flesh.” (Sunesis). I can see why you would say that, but the only thing is the tree of life was withdrawn (eternal life). Is death in the DNA? Worth looking into. Meanwhile…

I have no intention of getting involved in a trinity debate, because, in addition to their length, they become somewhat acrimonious and usually nobody convinces anyone of anything. I'm not really interested in budging and I would guess ChattyKathy isn't either. I am still of the opinion that Christ had Mary's DNA. It seems to me that one fact that supports that position is that Jesus Christ, during his time on earth, grew older. It seems to me to be logical that if he had chosen to not die on the cross that it is at least possible that he would have experienced old age and died in the natural course of events; so it seems at least possible that he had corruptible flesh during his time on earth. Is death in the DNA? Off the top of my head, I would answer 'Yes".

(highlighting above is mine)

Jean,

That is something that really ticks me off with TWI (and some former TWI) people...when you add something to scripture.

τῇ ἐλευθερίᾳ ἡμᾶς Χριστὸς ἠλευθέρωσεν στήκετε οὖν καὶ μὴ πάλιν ζυγῷ δουλείας ἐνέχεσθε

I don't see anywhere in the above that has (the law of Moses) written in it. So why do you insert it? Shoot, the context of the verse is not even talking about the Mosaic law, it's talking about circumcision...in light of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael (who all pre-dated Moses by a year or two).

Frankly, as to the subject of the "law of liberty," the phrase is used exactly twice in the Bible. James 1:25 and 2:12. If you check the context of those two verses out, it doesn't say what (as I recall) we were taught in TWI. It talks about the importance of the corporal works of mercy (see Jas 2:2 - 2:6, 2:16, etc.), and, in essence, the need to obey all of the decalogue (see Jas 2:10). Galatians talks in large part about the same points...the importance of interior conversion, as opposed to mere exterior compliance (spirit vs. mere flesh). But neither give authority to Christians to go and do whatever they want. Nowhere are we relieved of requirement to act in accord with the decalogue. In fact, we have to live toward our neighbors with a higher standard.

In this regard, I love James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment. When I read this, I remember all those times that we were told not to feed the poor, but just give them the Word. I thank God for His mercy toward me, for all those times when I was in TWI and I could have helped somebody...

Sorry if I sound harsh, but it's just something that irks me when I see it happen. The venom is aimed at the general habit...not at you as a person. So please don't take it like I'm yelling at you. I'm not. I'm yelling at the habit (which all of us have been guilty of).

The immediate context is about circumcision, but the remote context mentions the law, which I still assume from usage to be the law of Moses, not the law of sin and death. There are numerous references to the law of Moses throughout the book of Galatians. I had prepared a lengthy post citing them, but I am experiencing technical difficulties.

Does anyone out there know what to do if you receive a page saying 'Forbidden: you are not authorised to use this server, etc'. Pawtucket says it is not because of any greasespot activity on my account but I am computer illiterate, and don't know how to fix it.

Thank you, jeaniam

I would like to add that if folks are relying on what twi taught about the trinity they didn't know what they were talking about.

I am relying on what I believe the Bible teaches about the trinity, and even trinitarians concede that the Bible doesn't mention the trinity, but the doctrine of the trinity is a doctrine that 'evolved over time', but somehow they don't see anything wrong with that.

Sunesis, you make some valid points in your post, but I don't think the tree of life is a prototype of Christ, because if they had eaten thereof they would have remained forever in an unredeemed state. The tree of life conferred eternal life but had no power to redeem, at least as far as I understand it.

Read it more carefully. The law of liberty is not contrasted with the law of Moses, it is contrasted with the 'law of sin in my members, ie, the law of sin & death.

All of us are free and in bondage, we simply choose our freedom & our bondage:

To say one is 'free' or walks in liberty is, in itself, meaningless. Your choices give your liberty meaning.

Galatians contasts the law of liberty with the law of Moses, culminating with Gal. 4:30-5:1 &7--'Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not childfren of the bondwoman, but of the free. Stand fast therefor in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage (the law of Moses). For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.'