Jeaniam

Abigail, you can't be half saved... :)

(Back to numbers, or rather fractions)

One can live by fear or faith.

Let go and let God... :)

Yes in a black and white world, but in an imperfect world inhabited by imperfect people with a lot of grey in them, we do our best to live by faith, but unfortunately never totally rid ouselves of fear.

Abi, I'm not sure I can see you as a hobbit; maybe an elf, hmmm...

I am the one who said that Jean...not excathedra...

I am simply going by galations chapter 5 that states that those who have done what vpw are of the flesh and shall have NO inheritance in the kingdome of God....so sorry that passage doesn`t jive with what you want to believe...I`ll be darned if I can understand why that makes you mad at me.

I also base my question of his lack of EVER having been a man of the spirit by the way he repeatedly drugged and raped the sheep of the flock....hmmm lessseee....scripturally we are told to look for the fruit to identify one another....drunkeness..adultery...rape...oops he failed THAT test too...

VPW does however, fill the requirements nicely of a man of the flesh...he does fit the description of a false prophet to a *T*.....and he definitely behaved as a ravening wolf cleverly disguised in sheeps clothing, seeking whom he may devour....oh dear, but that isn`t what we WANT to believe now is it???

Lets not let scripture interfere with what you want to believe of a man whom you have probably never met nor had much exposure to.

I was quoting excathedra's post #685 on the previous page. My post was addressed to excathedra and to Dot Matrix, and I don't understand how you managed to insert yourself into the middle of it, but since you have, let's take a quick look at the fruit in your life; wrath, bitterness, strife, rejoicing in unrighteousness, grudge-holding, slander.

'Mad at you', not at all. Once again, I have yet to break a sweat in this conversation or any other on Greasespot. I think what's happening is that YOU'RE angry and projecting that emotion onto me; but just because you're emotional doesn't necessarily mean I am. As I have said before, I think this needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis, and I have neither the wisdom or the time to take that burden on myself.

By all means, let's not let scripture interfere with what YOU want to believe of that man.

We knew the word, we didn`t HAVE to act as a christian. It was ok to destroy and consume one another like ravening wolves....

If people would only realize how true is the last part of this quote. Some people obtained a LITTLE bit of knowledge and then acted like God gave them the right to be total bastards.

Yes, but what is not being acknowledged is that many posters on this thread are consuming each other like ravening wolves, and they do not all belong to the camp that saw some good in TWI, and PFAL.

i can vouch for that

--

ps. (i know i signed off with a "peace out" damn forgive me)

but when you tell things that happened and are true, it doesn't make you a judge or a jury, at all

No, possibly not, but when you make statements along the lines of 'How could he be a Christian or born again, and do those things'; or 'Anyone who does things like that must be going to hell'; etc., etc., you have gone beyond the point of being a witness.

And, Dot, it is not possible for me to camp on his doorstep, and proclaim his alleged misdeeds to the heavens, and warn others away from taking part in his ministry. He's dead. And as far as your question about whether Jesus would want us to continue to follow VPW after we became aware of his alleged misdeeds, possibly not, but let me point out that I, at least didn't do that. By the time I became aware of VPW's alleged misdeeds, I had long ended my participation in TWI, and I maintain that there is a big difference between continuing to believe that much of what I learned in PFAL about the Bible was true and continuing to follow VPW.

Possibly, my statement was somewhat judgmental, but I, at least, have not called anyone on this thread 'f**king a**holes' or other creative uses of four-lettered insults.

Usually, I find such attacks are seldom unprovoked. Usually. But it seems to be the case many times when the victim sometimes doesn't recognize they do what they accuse others of doing and get back what they dish out. I'll know better (after reading the entire thread) if that's the case. In the meanwhile -- you just go ahead and keep making your assumptions.

I agree. There are posters who say that no-one who commits certain actions can honestly claim to be a Christian, but they fail to take an honest look at their own lives, and ask themselves how they can call their own behavior Christian.

Thanks for your response, T-Bone. Food for thought.

BTW, I'm in for the group hug.

Yes, Eyes unfortunately we go 'round the same mountain yearly if not bi-yearly. (More or less)

There are usually more people who speak out against the horrid treatment dished to those who speak out, but Raf is on the honeymoon (or just back) Zixar doesn't vist often, Satori must be busy at home with the new family, I haven't seen Sunesis either this time, unfortunately we lost George (longgone) and (maybe) Jimmy Dopp as they passed away - what wonderful people they were.

The pro VPW -- "he couldn't have done that, even if he did I will follow him, where is the proof?" camp, lost MIKE. But they picked up Jeaniam.

My position is more complicated than that. I tend to agree that the issue needs to be judged on a case by case basis, and since I have neither the wisdom nor the time to embark on a project of that size and complexity I prefer to leave it up to God (the only wise and righteous judge). I don't think of myself as following VPW (especially since he is dead) but I do believe that he taught much of the truth of the Bible, and I am very thankful for it because of the background I came from. Many of you claim to have come from a background in which you were taught many of the principles of the Bible before you took PFAL, but there were others of us who were not as fortunate.

I agree with White Dove, Oldiesman, etc. that some of you are not acting solely as witnesses, but also as judges and juries.

Oldies, you've come a long ways to admit these things! I think that's a big deal, brother! I don't expect anyone to shelve any good experiences they've had…just be willing to consider the other side of things as well…a realistic picture is one that takes in all the details…warts and all.

Yes, but a realistic picture takes in all the details both good and bad. I was not in an area where such things took place. In the areas where I was the doctrine was; 'Gentlemen, keep it in your pants; ladies, keep your pants on', and it was strictly adhered to, and no, I don't believe that it was merely a smoke screen to conceal what was really going on behind the scenes.

Yes, John and I were exposed to some of the negative aspects of TWI that arose in its later life, but speaking ONLY for John and myself, we decided that the good of the doctrine we were taught ouweighed the pain we experienced. Now please understand that I am speaking for John and myself, and ONLY for John and myself. I want the picture that is portrayed to include the good also, and not to smear the good god-loving men in TWI who would probably not rape a woman at the point of a gun.

how did i lose you?

the bible calls all of sinners, we pick and chose what sin we do!

some sins can give quite an advantage in life! hell yeah.

did you chose to not sin use God or HIS bible study and now claim to be at a disadvantage from those who do not believe as you do?

is it stopping you from getting where you want to be? something you lean on because you have the inability to do it on your own because God says so?

Possibly yes, but I prefer the prosperity that God gives to the riches gained by deceit and trickery. And BTW, I want to read and post on your thread, so I hope you're no longer wounded.

Jean, on the top of the reply page you'll find a button with an "A" with an downward pointing arrow. Highlight your text and click on a color.

Thank you, Larry. Now let's give it a try. What do you know, it worked. Sorry, all, I'm being childish.

.

I see nothing in there about causing one to loss their faith. Besides even if your challenging words may cause someone to loss their faith, for all you know that could be the best thing for them. After all many people with the strongest faith are those that have lost it for a while.

I would like an example of someone saying something that the hearer is not "ready for." What does that mean? In what way does this hurt them? I understand it in terms of saying the wrong things to someone who may be grieving, for example, but that didn't sound like what some of you were talking about.

I think of it in terms of convincing a trinitarian that Jesus Christ is not God or the dead are not alive. Both of these truths were very comforting to me when I learned them, but I can see the devastation if someone is not ready to hear them. I once heard a story of a (non TWI) clergyman who was horrified with the doctrine of the dead are not alive because as he said, 'You're taking away people's comfort'. Now to me it is more comforting to know the truth, but to someone who thinks they know the truth and then to find out that their comfort is based on a lie could be extremely devastating. Now as you say that could be the best thing for them, but if you are going to do something that undermines someone's faith even temporarily, you had better be right.

See ?

so you guys do not have to worry one little bit about "staying saved" as JOHNNY put it hell yeah the pfal class took care of that

no worries in life at all now man.

free sailing!! good freaking class information a real keeper.

why in hell would anyone be NOBLE or do the right thing then?

hmm

it sure as H makes it alot easier to screw up doesnt it?

As long as you do not metion it ever again no one ever knows what goes on behind close doors, and that pesky annoying thought of God might have seen or been aware of it is no longer a problem he wont disown you and yep always forgiven.

keep on keeping on doing what ya need to do !!

a free ride with absolutly no accountability not even to God, HE cant disown you and your always forgiven have at it whatever you want !!!

no wonder ya all loved it so much.

How about out of gratitude for all that we have been given and all that we have been forgiven for? The temptation to keep on sinning has been dealt with in Romans 6:1&2 'Shall we sin the more that grace may abound. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?' There are many places in the Bible that indicate that we have NOT been given a free ride with no accountability to God. However, it is very comforting to know that we have been given incorruptible seed, and God cannot disown us, rather than the type of Christianity that I grew up with, wherein if you happened to be out of fellowship with a very arbitrary and cranky God at the time of your death, you were headed for hell and any obedience up to that point counted for nothing.

Doojable, I'm glad your upbringing taught you most of what we taught in PFAL, and all that PFAL did for you was reinforce what you already knew. Some of us were not that fortunate, however; and much of what I was taught in PFAL was like a great light in a very dark place.

T = true F = false U = unsure

Adam and Eve are historical figures, who lived 5000 - 7000 years ago. T/F/U

True

Jesus of Nazareth uniquely represented the Creator as His Son. T/F/U

True

The risen Jesus Christ is my Lord. T/F/U

True

The Book of Job is allegorical. That is, it attempts to explain human suffering using fictional characters. T/F/U

False

The disciple John, one of "the twelve", wrote 5 Books: John, 1John, 2John, 3John, and Revelation. T/F/U

True

Paul wrote Hebrews. T/F/U

Unsure

Moses wrote Genesis. T/F/U

True

David wrote the 23rd Psalm. T/F/U

True

Paul's doctrine of "by faith alone" contradicts James' doctrine, as recorded in the Book of James. T/F/U

False

Four were crucified with Jesus. T/F/U

True

I speak in tongues in my private prayer life. T/F/U

True

God loves homosexuals. T/F/U

True

Homosexuality is not a sin. T/F/U

False

God does not hate. T/F/U

True

1 Cor. 12 says that all nine "manifestations" of the spirit are the privilege of everyone who has been "born again" by confessing Jesus as their lord, and believing God raised him from the dead. (When combined with Romans 10:9 and other scriptures.) T/F/U

True

The prayer of a believer can move God to do something He would not otherwise have done. T/F/U

True

Mormonism, Catholicism, and JW’s are perversions of Christianity. T/F/U

I am not sure what you mean by perversion. I don't think they believe the Bible accurately, but then I don't think I do 100% of the time either. Given the three choices, I would have to say True.

Some of Jesus’ teaching is impossible to carry out. T/F/U

True, some of his teachings are impossible to carry out perfectly.

"Sin consciousness" is not in the believer’s self-interest. T/F/U

Godly sorrow is in the believer's self-interest; condemnation is not.

The canon is closed. Another authentic letter of Paul will never surface. T/F/U

True

There are authentic apostles and prophets of God living and ministering today. T/F/U

True

Requiring narrative answers (short or long):

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he "must be born again," what did he mean?

He meant that Nicodemus must be born of the spirit, or born from above.

What are your thoughts on the Fourth commandment (not to work on the sabbath)?

I believe that it is in man's best interest to take one day out of every seven as a day of rest. I don't think that God cares which one it is. I also think that, as Christ said, the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath, and to take that guideline and set it in stone as unchangeable to the point of stupidity is not what God meant when He gave the commandments. He allowed for man to use common sense in the observing of the sabbath.

Btw, how do you add color to your posts? I'm not sure the questions and answers are clear in my post.

Glad to hear it. Good luck and God bless.

Thank you, T-bone. 'Competent to Counsel' is the only book by Jay Adams I have read. If there are more I would appreciate the titles of them, since I also enjoy his writings.

Abigail, thank you for your response. I hope I didn't spoil your morning. I agree with most of your points wholeheartedly. I know we were taught in TWI that we had the answers for everything, but it seems to me that when we are confronted with a situation like the one Mr. Hammeroni was that we would be wise to admit that there are some situations where we just don't know why they happened.

And, yes, I agree that there are times when it is possible to get really angry at God without condemning oneself. Moses did, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that there were others also.

I don't know what reasoning Jefferson used for the continuing acceptance of the system of slavery,- nor Paul's (outside

perhaps the idea of one remaining content in whatever position one was in).

During my recent stay in Washington D.C., I had the privilege of spending some time in the Jefferson Memorial, and reading some of his writings that are engraved on the walls. It seems that Jefferson deplored the continuing practice of slavery, and foresaw the coming conflict that it would eventually cause many years before the actual Civil War. I have a vague notion that he arranged for the liberation of his slaves on the occasion of his death, but I could be mistaken.

I don't think God cares very much about red drapes, but this particular person NEEDED an apartment, NEEDED drapes in the living room, and WANTED those drapes to be red, and so God, who does care about this particular person, arranged for there to be red drapes in the living room. I agree with Jonny that I have seen many times in my life when I have prayed for things in great detail and in every case God has given me what I asked for and usually more beside.

I am reminded of a passage in the book 'Competent to Counsel' wherein a gentleman is sitting on a tack. A Freudian therepist comes along, and comments, 'You have a pain in your anal region. This must be because of your relationship with your mother. Tell me all about your childhood'. The gentleman does but feels no relief. Other counselors come by and offer other advice based on which school of psychiatry they studied, but the person still experiences no relief. Finally a neuthetic counselor surveys the situation and says: 'You're sitting on a tack. Get up, and let's discuss ways you can avoid sitting on a tack in the future.' I mention this passage because you could say that the neuthetic counselor confessed a negative, but the negative he confessed was actually at the root of the gentleman's problem and needed to be dealt with before he could obtain relief. How many times aren't we sitting on a spiritual tack that needs to be removed in order for us to obtain spiritual relief.

Jean, here's the reason I think TWI's doctrine regarding satan and sickness can be harmful to one who is sick, if you are interested.

1. As TWI taught it (at least in the later years) the implication is if you became sick it was because you were out of fellowship with God. It was your fault, you did something wrong. I cannot even begin to describe the condemnation one felt when a child was ill!

2. If you leave out the blame of the individual the implication is, Satan is more powerful than God, i.e. Satan can make you ill, even though God's will is for you to be healthy.

I am interested, thank you for your post. I agrre with your first point. The cruelty manifested by at least some in TWI was horrendous. We have three children who have learning disabilities to one degree or another and our last TC and BC took the attitude that their problems were directly due to my failures as a believer and recommended to John that he should divorce me and seek sole custody of the children if he wanted to have any hope for them at all. It was somewhat of a relief to have a doctor soon afterward who sent us to a genetics counselor who discovered a rare genetics problem (rare for the general population but for myself and John meant our chances of having a child with certain conditions was 50%).

I am not sure that leaving out the blame of the individual means that Satan is more powerful than God, but rather that since Satan is referred to as the god of this world, he has the ability to make someone sick, even though God's will is for you to be healthy.

Thanks for your post, Larry. Good points. I spent much of my youth being terrified of a God who made people sick and eventually killed them. It was a great relief to learn the truth through TWI.

"So, if my child is sick, I am not to pray for him to be healed? If I have lost my job to an earthquake, I am not to pray for a new one? If my truck dies, I am not to pray for a new one and the best possible deal? If I do happen to be in a mad rush to be somewhere, and traffic is heavy, I am not to pray to God for a break in the traffic so I can be where I need to be on time and to be able to keep my word to someone?"

By all means.

But, why limit your options? Why not rub your rabbit's foot, chant the diamoku, and pray the Rosary as well? If a little superstition is good, more must be better, right?

I (and, I think some of the other posters) don't regard prayer to an all-loving Father to be in the same category as the superstitions you mentioned.

I find this topic interesting because this morning I was having a conversation with a believer (non TWI) who is having some health issues, and during this conversation I pointed out to her that God doesn't want her to be sick. She is of the opinion that God's plan includes her illness and He must have a purpose for it. I forbore getting into a long discussion with her on the subject of the adversary and who makes you sick, etc. I guess it seems to me that giving some people information that they're not ready for doesn't 'minister grace unto the hearer', and could actually be harmful.

Abigail, and Evan, I tend to agree with the points you made. You differentiate between what you call guilt (sin consciousness), which I think the Bible calls 'godly sorrow', which allows us to repent and change where we need to; and condemnation which is not a good thing.

The world conforms people via many methods, not just one. Law, religion, peer pressure, money, sex, promises of love, etc. etc.

Who does the transforming, btw, in the verse you quoted? Become transformed by the renewing of the mind. What exactly does "renewing" mean? What exactly is "sin conciousness"? consciousness of whose sins? is that term "sin consciousness" even in the Bible?

It has been my assumption (although I am not sure I can back it up Biblically) that God does the transforming while the individual believer renews his mind to the Word. The word 'renewing' is the Greek word 'anakainosis'- a 'making new again'. It is only used twice in the NT, and is always translated renewing.

'Sin consciousness' is being conscious of or dwelling on one's sins, I think; and I think it would have to be one's own sins, not other people's, which would fall into the category of hypocrisy; since most of us are not exempt from committing the same sins. I am not sure if the term 'sin consciousness' is used in the Bible, and right now I am too tired to do an exhaustive word study. Just some thoughts.

who have you seen raised from the dead, please ?

It was a baby that fell into a swimming pool, and was underwater for approxiamately ten minutes. I am at least willing to leave the door open for the possibility that she woke up and experienced no brain damage was due to a miraculous intervention. BTW, she never received CPR. I have heard of other occurances from people I respect; also from people I do not respect and tend to discount their stories.

It seems to me that attributing every evil event in a person's life to their 'believing' or lack thereof bypasses the reality of an adversary. John and I recently dealt with a situation involving a person with no insurance backing into our car. I take exception to the idea that our 'believing' caused the accident. We were also confronted with a friend of ours having a recurrance of cancer who underwent surgery rather than experiencing a supernatural healing. Some people would characterize this person as an 'inadequate believer', but I don't agree with that either. I think undergoing surgery indicates this person's resolve to be healed by whatever means are at their disposal.

4. The PFAL grad learns to create their own "reality" through the law of believing equals perceiving. Though nothing actually changes in the real world, the perception by the grad that they can manipulate reality is all that matters.

I believe that things DO change in the real world. I have seen the dead raised, the sick healed, the mentally ill restored to sanity, etc. through the power of prayer and the truths contained in the Bible. I'm not sure that I (or any other Christian) can manipulate reality. I do believe that I have access to God through prayer and He CAN manipulate reality.

I remember much that I learned in PFAL with great fondness. As I have said before, I grew up in a very narrow-minded family and church, and most of what I learned in PFAL was very liberating for me (incorruptible seed, JC is not God, the dead are not alive, speaking in tongues, etc.).