Jeaniam

I still do it to speak the wonderful works of God, etc. I still find that speaking in tongues brings many of the benefits that the Bible promises (love, joy, peace, etc.).

I enjoyed reading the article wrds brought up and Dan quoted. He seems to agree with something I hypothesized long ago; that the purpose of being born again and receiving holy spirit is to allow a believer to be more fully himself than he could be without it (what Wright refers to as being fully human). Are his books freely available on the Internet or in bookstores?

Yes, to sleep in the sense of not being awake or alert either physically or mentally. It still seems clear just in the verses you have quoted that in most cases that the word 'sleep' is being used firuratively; either as a metaphor for lack of mental alertness or death.

Death is the state of not being alive.

It seems clear to me that some of the verses you quoted are talking about physical death (sleep): 1 Cor. 11:30, 1 Cor. 15:51, 1 Th. 4:14, and 1 Th. 5:10; and others are talking about sleep in the sense of not being vigilant: Rom. 13:11, 1 Th. 4:14, and 1 Th. 5:7. No doubt there are other references as well.

Great video. Thanks for sharing

Jean, oftentimes when I'm at work (I work from 4 to midnight) and taking a break I'll come here to just read through some of the responses and consider them. Something you said in your last post just stuck in my mind.

For years I have pretty much thought along this line. What difference does any of it really make? I had come to the conclusion long ago, that (for me) it makes no difference at all. And even if it were to make a difference to someone else, then God will have to open the eyes of their understanding through someone besides myself. I'm retired.

I would never have guessed you were retired from reading your posts on other threads. I think some things are important enough to matter to God (JCING, TDANAN, etc.) About some things, I guess I would quote Mr. Spock; 'a difference that MAKES no difference IS no difference', or else write it off to the 'manifold wisdom of God'. I guess I'm not sure that the possible difference I cited is earthshaking enough to spend oodles of time on. I think it can be read either way without detracting too much from God's word. I was mildly curious, that's all.

No, Johniam (or Jean, whichever one of you wrote this). First, I am not a robot - I prayed to God and asked for His guidance and direction. I do believe he led me to a group of people who could and did help me tremendously. I also believe I blew it by not getting out when His still small voice told me to.

Yes, I believe some of the people played a role in my getting healed, but the ultimate credit goes to God. Yes, I am thankful for those people (VPW was dead and gone before I ever came to TWI, he does not get credit as one of those people. VPW used God's Word to hurt people and God took that weapon and turned it to good to help people, so again VPW does not get credit).

I don't believe in your devil Johniam. One of my big contentions with the teachings of TWI is how much power they give to the devil. At least by the time I left, it seemed that according to TWI the devil had far more power than God does. Shame on them!! They used the devil to instill fear instead of teaching God to instill peace!!!

The first post was John, this one is me. John rarely posts under my name, I forget to check who's signed in fairly frequently. I agree that there were warning signs late in our involvement with TWI that seemed to suggest that leaving might have been a wise idea.

We were having a discussion recently on the subject of whether it's wise to dwell too much on the devil. It seemed that TWI began to do that in the later days. It seems to me that if we focus on doing God's will we will defeat the purposes of the devil in the natural course of things; whereas it seems to me that if we focus on defeating the devil, it is something of an unhealthy mindset, as then we are using the devil for our primary center of reference instead of God.

That's an interesting point, another spot. It seems there are two ways to read verse 3, and neither one is necessarily inaccurate.

1). 'And every man that hath this hope in him (in his heart) purifieth himself, even as he (Christ) is pure'.

2). 'And every man that hath this hope in him (in Christ) purifieth himself, even as he (Christ) is pure'.

Does anyone have an opinion (or am I just being nitpicky)?

My daughter thought #4 should have said 'garbage', it doesn't matter, however; both are true.

I have gone through much healing due to this thread. I chose not to post here during the heat of it because I believed folks were doing what they knew to be best for it and I didn't want to hinder or even encourage because it needed to be your hearts speaking only. And I knew I was in disagreement at points and didn't want to influence anyone here. But it has turned into a wonderful example of individuals working out their own salvation and it would be a tragedy for it to be removed. It has the potential of healing the broken lurkers in life long ways.

And Suda's summations have been simply inspired!

Screw anyone and anything that would hinder this good work.

John,

I know that you did not address me but I am going to take the liberty of answering for my friend. (I am fairly certain that she will not mind) She has a lot to say and a lot to be thankful for. It was necessary for her to share the contents of her post on this thread, in this manner so that she could say in all humility this final statement and know that others will understand where it is coming from:

QUOTE(ChattyKathy @ Aug 10 2007, 09:07 PM)

I am blessed by so many of you that I can't begin to say and some don't even know it which I regret I have allowed to be.

Humbly,

Kathy

If you do not really understand the heart and love behind the statement it only means that you do not know Kathy very well. But no she did not mean to be posting on any other thread but this one.

I apologize if this sounds harsh or callous or anything else negetive this would not reflect my intent.

BTW Kathy- Great post! I love you too!!

Actually, the first post was me, not John. I noticed it when I was halfway through but decided it was harmless enough to let it stand without correction. I apologize for the confusion. I do understand the heart and love behind the post you quoted, but I am still somewhat confused by the post I quoted. It still seems to be more aimed at the 'things I learned from PFAL' thread then this one (notice the reference to Suda's summations, etc.).

I also did not intend anything harsh or callous.

It seems to me that we can learn from our mistakes of the past without dwelling on them to an unhealthy extent. After all, we can't change the mistakes of yesterday, nor can we change the mistakes of tomorrow; all that is directly under our control is today, and specifically now, this minute. I made a serious mistake with my son two days ago that hurt his heart. I walked into an argument halfway through and jumped to the erroneous conclusion that he was at fault. I cannot change what happened, but I can, and should, learn from it, while moving on.

As many folks turned to worship, prayer, Christ, and God - they found the foundation they had sought. Many folks found themselves going back to the beginning of their journey - that being to seek God and His will.

Of course, here we are debating how many folks did it "Jean's way" and how many did it "Dooj's way." I'd be thankful for anyone that has Jesus Christ as their Rock and foundation - regardless of how they came to be there.

That's a valid point. I've listened to several teachings (sermons) recently on the manifold wisdom of God. The word 'manifold' reminds me a little of the term 'many folded', which seems to me to suggest that there can be many meanings in a verse of scripture, and all of them are valid. Just a thought...

Hey, I remembered this time!!!

Bold added by me. Just because someone thought PFAL was a good class, does not immediately mean that person has a more balanced approach to TWI. Likewise, just because someone has serious issues with VPW does not mean they are unbalanced in their approach.

I would suggested instead, that perhaps this place could be an appropriate setting for anyone who has had their life touched by TWI, regardless of their opinion of PFAL, VPW, Bill Clinton, or George W. Bush.

You make a valid point. I was thinking of people who post who are so angry and bitter that their posts come across as extremely emotional to the point of fixating on the negatives in the organization and ignoring all the good that was there. I agree with what Jonny Lingo just said.

The mission also begs the question, FOR WHAT PURPOSE?

I would think it would include

(1) to aid in the healing and recovery process for those who have left and have wounds or scars

(2) to expose the "true" identity of twi as a decision making aid to those thinking of making or breaking an affiliation with the organization.

Is there a purpose for those who left and have no scars or wounds they are seeking and/or needing help in healing/recovery process? Is this an appropriate forum for them? What purpose could/should they serve?

Input is welcomed.

Suda

There are those who remember the early years of TWI with pleasure and value what they learned, who sustained hurts in TWI2, that they need to be healed from. Why should it not be an appropriate forum for them, just because they have a more balanced approach to TWI; i.e. that PFAL was a good class that taught many about God (who never lets man down even if people do)? They can balance the more emotional approach of those who seek only to vilify VPW and everything he did. I think that's a good purpose to serve, as well as exposing the hypocrisy of those who do the same things they accuse others of.

BTW, what are 'scritpures'?

I think the exodus began in the middle to late 1980's, so some of the off-shoots could have been around close to 20 years.

I'm aware of some off-shoots in IL (not IN) associated with Chris Geer, but don't know about a family camp. Most areas with CG are pretty independent, so I wouldn't necessarily know; we live in the St. Louis area. Checking the offshoots thread sounds like a good idea. Also many of the off-shoots have independent websites. God Bless.

Jean - You're right. I didnt' mean to imply that Y2K was invented by TWI. I only meant that it was one of the justifications for keeping up the MAL pack concept. I'm not sure if it is still in use.

A Family camp ten years ago... lots could have changed.

It really could be that these kids are all fired up and re-committed. It could be something else.

Yes, indeed in ten years many things could have changed.

Oops, double post

While I can't shed a tremendous amount of light, you're welcome to the little I know. John and I went to a family camp in upstate NY in 1996. It was run by Vince Finnegan and John McCabe (I hope in this context it's okay to use their whole names). We had a very good time (not really relevant), but since then I have heard that things have been going downhill. I might be able to PM you addresses and phone numbers if you would like, and if you give me some time to look them up.

BTW, the Y2K scare was a lot more widespread than Rosie and Co.

Second likeaneagle

Well - even a tumor is part of a body. It even has it's own blood supply. That doesn't make it a healthy part of the body.

I guess I see these offshoots in various degrees of spiritual decay.

Well, EVERY church is to some degree spiritually decayed, in that no church is spiritually perfect. I wondered how long it would be before we got back to stirring the pot, but I'm a little surprised to find you here, doojable. Breathe, in and out, slowly, in and out...

BTW, thanks to those of you who are trying to continue the list.

Well, I think I'll start with Larry, who has become a good friend in a short time; Chatty Kathy, another spot, and Word Wolf, whom I shared a doctrinal thread with; Eyesopen, who tolerates my childish behavior when I master a new feature of greasespot; T-Bone, whose posts are often food for thought. There are too many others to mention who have been a great pleasure and privilege to interact with.

I'm game, if he is. I can't remember how close (geographically) we are. Today I played at the Big Met in Cleveland, OH. First time I ever did and I must say -- it's one of the better courses I've played on.

We're in the St. Louis area, not too far away. I think we went through Cleveland on vacation last year. We'll see.

I get that a lot. It's always a physical thing. Many like me for my avatar instead of my mind. ;)

I like you for your mind too. I recently got caught up with a thread that you've been active on. Maybe you and my husband can get together for a round of golf sometimes. He usually is too busy to play.

We forgive them all - (IMHO) but forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. In fact forgiveness requires remembering.

Why is it then when God forgives, He forgets, and remembers our sins no more.

We Love them all. But again - we are still to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Just because I love - doesn't mean that I'm not honest. In fact, Jesus himself said that it's easy to love those that we like - it's the unloveable that we need to extend ourselves to.

Here: its in my signature now, but I'm making it bigger for all to see:

I shall allow no man to belittle my soul by making me hate him.-- Booker T. Washington

It's a shame that some of the other posters don't share your sentiment.

Doojable

Actually it was Johniam, not Jonny Lingo, who stated there where things in BG's class that were deliberately left out of PFAL.

I asked if he would care to elaborate but never saw these differences addressed.

Might now be as good a time as any to do so?

Waysider, I know that it was Johniam who made that statement. I was just obviating should that argument arise again.

He seems silent on that matter though...

He's at work. I assume he'll respond when he has time.

You're very welcome Jean.

If you're going to call yourself childish for asking for help, then I guess that makes me childish for giving it to you.

I think I'm running out of crayon colors. ;)

I KNEW there was a reason I liked you (besides your avatar)

If anyone here is an alcoholic, besides VPW the great man himself, perhaps they drink to forget being raped.

I do not drink. On a rare occasion I have a wine cooler. But that is not the point.

Jeaniam how dare you speak to Rascal like that?

How dare I? I read her posts.

Grudge holding? How so? You defend an evil man. She exposes him - therefore she holds a grudge?

Many people crawl to GSC looking for answers or deliverance from also being conned, raped, or heart broken. If they find you praising the man who did that to them, they may never get healed. She and others post on these kinds of threads to expose the illusion.

Illusion? I and others merely speak up for the positive side of TWI so it doesn't get buried under 12 layers of garbage.

Wrath?- I would say indignation over the posts that people who still laud VPW to the sky present

I haven't seen many people who want to 'laud him to the skies'; just people who want to see the WHOLE truth told, that he was a man like any other with his good points and his bad ones.

Bitterness - you are saying that because when people like you bring up the great memories of VP, she brings up the dangerous side. You do not like it so you call her bitter.

How is he dangerous to anyone anymore? He's dead, as I and some others have pointed out repeatedly.

Rejoicing in unrighteousness - got me stumped there, she is one of the straightest people I know, and surely does not REJOICE in unrighteouness

She sure comes across to me like she rejoices in HIS alleged unrighteousness as much time as she spends talking about it.

Slander? How so? She tells her truth which doesn't match yours so it is slander?

It is at best only part of the truth.

Strife? I'd say you cause her as much strife as she causes you. You've been no laid back seetie pie since you've been here

So, how's that non judgemental thing working for you? Jeaniam?

Pretty well actually. I have never suggested that she might not be born again or that she might not be going to heaven no matter how pharisaical and hypocritical her posts are.