T-Bone

2 minutes ago, Mike said:

Yesterday, I just finished the chapter where she finishes Summer School and about to enter the Corps. I am slowly getting to the heavier stuff.

From John Lynn's report, VPW was asking these questions very late in the game, and he did it at Emporia, where he had a little more freedom to speak to  people.  Maybe that slipped by Penworks due to the location?  

Could also be near the end of his life he was running out of energy to keep up the man of god persona and all his delusional hopes were falling apart and secret sins had metastasized 

2 minutes ago, waysider said:

It's a long book, T-Bone. Cut him some slack.

Oh yeah sorry…I forget he moves at a different pace…I blew through Undertow - couldn’t put it down! Like binge watching The West Wing - I don’t watch the “previously on…” in between each episode.

12 minutes ago, Mike said:

The music in AOS was very good. I still listen to it once in a while. But I edited out the words.

The music was bright and cheery, but the scenery was dark and garish.

As for the actors, people in the sexual fast lane were always on the other side of the horizon for me. I am not the one to ask about that topic.

The ONLY thing I was reporting was that John Lynn was pretty clear in 1988 that VPW had second thoughts about the athletes thing being a genuine figure of speech in Ephesians.

Did you get to the part in Undertow that relates how DETERMINED wierwille was in wanting the research Dept. Mistranslate the  Greek text? Had nothing to do with it being a figure of speech!

22 minutes ago, Mike said:

Well, can you offer an alternative theory as to why the devil seems to be winning most of the time? 
 

who made you the spiritual score keeper?
 

22 minutes ago, Mike said:

How do you handle the scarcity of miracles in your life and the lives of people around you.  Do you believe God can answer prayers at all?

Your assumptions so those are your problems

22 minutes ago, Mike said:

How do you answer the biggest question of all time, which is how can a pure loving God sit back while all the incredible amount of evil seems to just increase?

I do not presume to answer for God
 

22 minutes ago, Mike said:

Do you have a better answer than mine?

I have no answers - and your theories are too bat-$hit crazy for my taste 

22 minutes ago, Mike said:

See, I am trying to make sense of life and the scriptures.  It that is too big a challenge for you, or one that seems to promise no pay-out, I would understand.

 

It seems to me Escaping the condescending know-it-all mindset is your biggest challenge 

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Well, I have to admit this budget/doors idea is not so clear, and the evidence is scant compared to the other two threads.

I don’t recall you posting evidence on the other threads.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Part of the problem there may have been all the distractions and the fast pace. If you were to comb through them the main idea for each is simple, and there was evidence of sorts supplied.

For the Canon, the main idea was that all through the Bible God entrusted His revelations to people who would get the revelation accurately into written form, and then distribute those writings in a responsible and even guided way.  I gave one big example of this from 2 Timothy, but never got around to showing evidence to the same idea in the OT.  Imay add that someday.

That is speculation on your part. I prefer methods that are grounded - disciplines with academic standards, like textual criticism and historical research on the canon of Scripture.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

The Free Will thread was a simple idea that I am proposing: our biologically given free will is not as strong as we like to think, and it is not as instantaneous.  By analogy, our biological free will is similar to biological muscles, in that they may need exercising to be sufficiently strong, and that the first times through a coordinated effort there may a lot of failures to perform adequately.

It sounds like you’re talking about willpower…most of my problems are due to laziness or lack of self-control. 

2 hours ago, Mike said:

But this budget/door idea is not as clear.  I was blown away at how both God and the devil were at work simultaneously in the incident with Paul on the road to Damascus.  It seemed related to Moses' rod turning into a snake and then the court magicians did the same thing. 

The temporary hindrance "suffered" by God's angels in Daniel 9 was another eye-opener.  I thought I saw a pattern in those scriptures, and then thought a few more popped up.

I'll post my second list in the  budget side soon, and then I may be done with this topic for a while.

This all seems like a lot of speculation and leads to unwarranted extrapolation.

15 hours ago, MarieP said:

I started reading a book last night about The Way, and something hit me hard. We can all say this person and that person in the Way did this and that to me. We can point out all the flaws and abuse, mistreatment, etc. The book was courageous to say the least, but focused on what others had done to the person writing the book. I did not read any remorse for how they treated others. The writer was in the upper tier of the Way and at one time believed Dr. W was the man of god of the world. All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'.  We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it!  I went through the Way Corp with my husband, and that is when I was fully indoctorinated. I know I hurt people because 'I was Way Corps'. I hurt my parents and my siblings by removing myself from them. My parents were kind, they did not try to get me out, but they were extremely worried and they missed me. I missed my two younger siblings high school years. By the time I did come back, we had a weak relationship and I worked on rebuilding in after I left the Way in 1986. The Way ministry was more important than my family. When this washed over me, I wept and asked the Father for forgiveness for hurting them. My parents are dead, but I whispered to them to forgive me. I realized I had been duped. I could have had a wonderful relationship with them and still loved God and the Bible. It was in our last year that things started becoming clear. At one point I took off my nametag and put it on the Corp coordinator's desk and told him I was finished. My husband was the only thing that kept me in. I didn't want to end our marriage. 

Before going into the Way Corps my husband and I had a fellowship in our little apartment that was wonderful. We all became good friends and had a lot of fun together. We were not pressured by the Limb C to run a class, and he stayed out of our lives pretty much. I regretted we left that sweet fellowhip for an ideal of becoming leaders.  I'm sure this post isn't as clear as I am trying to be. I guess all I'm saying is for us all to examine our own lives while we were in the Way, and repent for the things we now despise that we have accused others of. It has taken me years to get to this point, to be willing to ask for forgiveness. 

Welcome to Grease Spot, MarieP - that is a very revealing post. After I left TWI I began to realize that I had gotten into the habit of relating to others in a very artificial way - and it was insulating me from any meaningful exchanges. I’d use ministry jargon and push TWI’s agenda and figured if anyone didn’t like it then that was too bad for them. 

I lost a lot of friends when I left - but I’m learning to be myself , and allow my wife and kids the freedom to be themselves. Not a part of someone else’s exploitative agenda. I can still be the world’s biggest a$$-hole sometimes - but as a family we’re a forgiving bunch - and it no longer revolves around the ministry. 

On 3/15/2023 at 4:54 AM, Twinky said:

We sang this in church last Sunday.     Some of the words really hit the spot for me.   These in particular: And we magnify his strictness /With a zeal he will not own.  (Words  shown on the video, and reprinted following the link.) 

How easily we magnify fault - our own, and others - and condemn ourselves, and others, for that slight or imagined fault; and how often we forget God's graciousness and compassion - for ourselves and others - and so we don't show that love and compassion to others.  

There’s a wideness in God’s mercy,
Like the wideness of the sea;
There’s a kindness in his justice,
Which is more than liberty.
There is no place where earth’s sorrows
Are more felt than up in heaven;
There is no place where earth’s failings
Have such kindly judgment given.

For the love of God is broader
Than the measure of man’s mind;
And the heart of the eternal
Is most wonderfully kind.
But we make his love too narrow
By false limits of our own;
And we magnify his strictness
With a zeal he will not own.

There is plentiful redemption
In the blood that has been shed;
There is joy for all the members
In the sorrows of the head.
There is grace enough for thousands
Of new worlds as great as this;
There is room for fresh creations
In that upper home of bliss.

If our love were but more simple,
We should take him at his word;
And our lives would be all goodness
In the joy of Christ our Lord.

 

Awe-inspiring production Twinky! 
Amazing -what beautiful harmonies- and such clarity- perfection… I’ve never heard of that song before…the words are so healing- thanks for sharing.

15 hours ago, Mike said:

 T-Bone Posted Friday at 08:50 AM:
…if you have something that is truly of merit it should be able to stand up to the toughest close scrutiny… this is such a disappointment- when shown you are wrong or negligent in providing evidence for your theory - you whine and complain people are biased - and you seem to shrink from ever admitting you’re wrong…

Well, the reason I brought the budget/doors idea here to GSC was for the toughest of scrutiny. 

I wasn’t whining or complaining about the bias that goes along with that scrutiny… just laughing at it, and how it causes people to almost look for ways to misunderstand me, and how the bias is probably invisible to you all. But that’s ok.  I expected it.

And BTW,  I may very well be wrong on this “budget/door” idea. 

Compared to other projects of mine, this theory has gotten very little, to zero attention from me over the years. I would just occasionally throw small pieces of paper with small notes or scriptures scribbled on them into my folder for decades, without ever looking at the contents of the folder. 

 

This budget/doors idea was very much unlike my "free will" theory, which got worked on daily on several other Facebook websites for years. Also this latest idea is unlike my NT Canon thread, because my old 1970s Canon folder got lots of attention as I worked it with Walter, Bernita, and a few others way back then.

I may be wrong on this budget/doors idea.

We all have biases…the Socratic method helps to sort out and identify and isolate the valid points from the nonsense… sorry if I come off as if I’m always reluctant to hear you out - but since you brought up the NT Canon and free will threads - I must say your lack of communication skills and supportive evidence frustrate me to the point I feel compelled to frequently pester you for clarification and evidence. It’s difficult to carry on a discussion when the topic is muddy and lacks concrete evidence to argue over.

and honestly I don’t think my communication skills are much better than yours - which means you’ll have to work twice as hard when talking to me 

Raf, for the record I tentatively think I’m right only on a thing or two …and I’m not sure what they are. 

You said:

Religion can employ reason, and it often does. But there comes a point when reason ceases to agree with what a religion is peddling. Where it outright rejects it. "Maybe there were six denials instead of three." No. That makes no sense. They all said three. "Maybe there was more than one cursed fig tree." No, that's just excuse-making to account for the discrepancy in the accounts. 

End of quote

I wonder if the twisted bull-$hit PEDDLED by a pseudo-Christian cult-leader like wierwille has tainted your viewpoint. 

I say that because your post mixes the natural sense of scripture with the nonsense of wierwille ideology. 

I will not soften the brutal truth of the gospel message - nor will I argue for its REASON. I got into that on another thread - My post on A Loving Father?

So I’m not going to bore anyone to tears or Zs       again rehashing the why of the message, the need for sacrifice and redemption - and there’s probably some confirmation bias on my part because the gospel message makes sense to me - per the narrative of the Bible and regardless of the nonsense that wierwille peddled which in my opinion obfuscated the simple message of the Bible…”it makes sense” can be a problematic debate if there’s not a reference point or standard we can agree upon for what makes something intelligible, justified or have meaning…I know I’m probably muddying up this discussion - I think you Raf are better at articulating and citing nuances - so feel free to tell me what I’m trying to say  - just kidding - the compliment is no joke - just expressing frustration with my lack of communication skills. 

And I don’t mean to come off as self-righteous or put myself above anyone- I’m just as flawed as anyone else - so count me in your assessment with the  "lawless” the "darkness", the “ignorant" and "hard-hearted” , “Blinded” , the "cowardly, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and liars - I am a great a$$-hole in my own right - and if there is a judgement throne that I must appear before - I plan on being a blubbering idiot on my knees throwing myself at the mercy of the judge  - and who (besides the Lord) knows how that fiasco will turn out?

I never said or implied that anyone lacks the capacity to understand what I’m talking about. Maybe you and I have different ideas about how a higher power would reveal their personhood…it would seem to me that it’s contradictory or counterproductive for the Creator to require His creation have a nebulous thing called “spirit” to know about Him unless everyone already had it - otherwise it’s sort of like the what came first the chicken or the egg conundrum. 
 

to elaborate on my comments of I Cor.2 in my earlier post - there is probably a deeper idea of  Christian being enlightened further - as scripture like Ephesians 1: 17 & ff seem to suggest - but to flat out say the “natural man” can’t accept the gospel message goes against Romans 10 - faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 1

~ ~ ~ ~

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Romans 2

It seems silly to think Paul was terrified of a debate over the means and method of redemption since he put all his cards on the table with the simple gospel message. He unapologetically puts the message out there - theologically…biblically there are no issues to resolve. As a revealed religion the basic tenets of Christianity come with the territory of the Bible. If this is another thinly disguised point / counterpoint religion versus atheism episode - well sorry I messed up once again. 

Just a thought - respectfully, maybe you are inadvertently redirecting the discussion to find fault in the message - that it is somehow flawed. That’s entirely possible. But if it is a revealed religion that posits we are ALL flawed - then it comes down to me either accepting or rejecting that religion’s assessment of my status.

If the message is flawed because it’s not God-inspired or simply there is no God - then those are topics for another discussion. I believe - and I could be wrong - the wisdom of the world is foolish when it lacks the sense to correlate things like the wonders of the physical world or the amazing technology and industry of humankind as a reflection of the Creator. 

~ ~ ~ ~ 

FYI  in the Matrix red & blue pill analogy - the main character Neo is offered the CHOICE between a red pill and a blue pill by rebel leader Morpheus. The RED pill will enable Neo to learn a potentially unsettling or life-changing truth...I think the red and blue pills was just a symbolic tool to show it all revolves around one’s CHOICE, a simple willful act of accepting or rejecting…same with the vaccine as a symbol of choice. That CHOICE stimulates immunity - are we talking confirmation bias ? Maybe so…also it’s possible a person’s ego, pride or some other unidentified factor may inoculate them against accepting the gospel message.

Hey Skyrider, check out “systematizing” used in Ephesians 4:14 in alternate versions

A Faithful Version

So that we no longer be children, tossed and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men in cunning craftiness, with a view to the systematizing of the error;

Darby Bible Translation

in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of that teaching [which is] in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error;

~ ~ ~ ~ 

In my opinion Paul could very well have been describing harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult-leaders in their systematizing of deception and control.

And for all you geeky Greek fans here’s some more tech news:

Interlinear of Ephesians 4:14

Lexicon of Ephesians 4:14

4 hours ago, cman said:

A good note to keep in mind. Not only Christianity but other faiths as well, just labels though, I don't like labels, they tend to be narrow minded.

Right. Christianity is the only religion I’m somewhat familiar with. Narrow mindedness is probably relative - and I tend to be more inclusive compared to say a fundamentalist who is typically exclusive. Labels can be helpful - some specificity is needed otherwise we could be talking about anything, everything or nothing - then it’s meaningless. 

I went with Raf’s opening post mention of I Corinthians 2:14 - and that’s why I quoted the whole chapter, as an example of a revealed religion versus the natural religion of reason that Paine promoted. Don’t think I was clear enough in my post to show that’s what I think Paul was arguing for - a revealed religion versus a natural religion - “the wisdom of this world “…but that’s just my take on it - I could be wrong. 

I wasn’t meaning to be argumentative - just putting my goofball ideas in the mix to  posit the thought that faith and  religion doesn’t always mean that reason goes out the window - that’s just my opinion of course. 

On 3/11/2023 at 1:13 PM, Raf said:

Originally posted in the "God's accountant, etc." thread in response to a post that cited I Corinthians 2:14. 

We obviously don't look at I Cor. 2:14 the same way. I see it as Paul's way of inoculating his followers against the Reason virus.

Usually, if someone disagrees with you, you respond by presenting additional evidence or reframing your argument. In one fell swoop, Paul makes that unnecessary by declaring his opponents incapable of grasping his concept because they lack what I [jokingly] call the Magic Decoder Ring.

"How can he possibly understand the things of the spirit? He doesn't have what it takes?"

"What's that? evidence?"

"No, spiritual discernment!"

"What's spiritual discernment?"

"It's the God-given capacity to understand what I'm saying is true."

"So it's a magic decoder ring that suddenly transforms your thesis from bulls hit to enlightenment."

"Well when you put it like that it sounds silly and disrespectful. It's more like, when you humble yourself, God opens the eyes of your understanding."

"Ah, so it's not a magic decoder ring at all."

"Exactly."

"It's gullibility."

...

Note how in that conversation we go from "Paul's message doesn't make sense," which focuses on the message as the subject matter, to "It's a Yahweh thing; You wouldn't understand," which focuses on the rejector of the message as the subject.

I Corinthians 2:14 is an ad hominem attack on anyone who hears or reads Paul's message and concludes it's a crock.

23 hours ago, Rocky said:

People "understand" what's familiar to them. 

Isn't that really just another way to grasp the concept of indoctrination? It's in the news these days from the fearful perspective of parents afraid of the indoctrination their kids might get in public schools, right? 

Do we want our children indoctrinated to accept reason or superstition?

IOW, do we view indoctrination from a perspective of the future, or from our own accumulated body of knowledge and how we understand the world?

Well, children are inherently gullible, aren't they? Weren't we, way back when?

It seems to me Raf made a reasonable, likely quite sound argument.

"Magic decoder ring" seems like an apt description of what was taught in the Advanced Class on PFLAP.

I remember clearly, during that indoctrination session, pondering my thoughts (stream of consciousness) wondering whether I was receiving revelation.

Then in residence with the 9th corpse (just a few short months hence) when the entire student body at Emporia was asked for clues to some actual mystery (not so fictional whodunit) and all I could come up with was one person's name. My thoughts were out of the blue and irrational. I offered my "revelation." My "insight" was never acted on.

 

18 hours ago, Rocky said:

Oh. Okay. How would you explain how such "knowing" came or comes to be?

I am aware there are things beyond what humans are capable of perceiving by way of our five senses.

I also understand such phenomena aren't limited to bible believing Christians.

Others, not from a Christian perspective, I've read describe such as synchronistic events.

 

18 hours ago, Rocky said:

Then there's Paine's exposition on The Age of Reason.

Paine challenged superstition, but didn't prove the impossibility of synchronicity.

I’ll pick up with comments about Paine’s The Age of Reason - thanks for the link, Rocky. 

“Paine advocates reason in the place of revelation, leading him to reject miracles and to view the Bible as an ordinary piece of literature, rather than a divinely-inspired text. In The Age of Reason, he promotes natural religion and argues for the existence of a creator god.”

Christianity is considered a revealed religion - in other words it’s based on the revelation by God to humankind  - the ideas would not have been arrived at by natural reason alone…by definition the metaphysical is beyond the 5 senses 

 if there is anything beyond what we can sense , we need another way to perceive it. 

what about the “other side” ? Are there “metaphysical beings” who move between “worlds” ? Was there an initiative to reveal some stuff about the unseen realm? Maybe the attraction of religion is the hope of connecting to the “otherness”.

as I Corinthians 2 explains:

1And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. a 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,

what no ear has heard,

and what no human mind has conceived” 

the things God has prepared for those who love him—

10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 

14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord

so as to instruct him?” 

But we have the mind of Christ.

I Corinthians 2

~ ~ ~ ~

*rather than starting off with Internet definitions for things already touched upon - I’ve listed them after my comments.

~ ~ ~ ~ 

portraying religion as a vaccine to fight reason is to cast them as enemies rather than allies. I understand Christianity to be a religion where faith and reason are complementary. II Corinthians 5:7 says we walk by faith and not by sight. It does NOT say we walk by faith and not by reason. The combination of faith and reason is also implied in  Hebrews 11:3

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Rocky brought up synchronicity - where we look for meaning. But meaning is intangible and relative and it’s possible to misinterpret a supposedly correlation of events…but I think meaning is something we seek. Why is it difficult to see the correlation? Is it because something inside us is broken? 

I believe we were created as social beings. Something got really messed up in the fall of humankind in Genesis. We got separated from something essential - being connected with God and each other…why God didn’t fix things immediately is not known. Some scholars with expertise in the biblical languages and cultures understand the death associated with the first sin of humankind to be twofold in its impact - a figurative death of the spirit - separation from God, and long term there were physical consequences too.

In I Corinthians 2 Paul gets into God revealing Himself through the life of Jesus Christ. This is in contrast to worldly wisdom - a wisdom that doesn’t acknowledge God. I believe verses  4 & 5 speak of the unique time of the apostolic period - Paul and the other apostles had authentication by the power of God. 

In my opinion wierwille was a phony teaching people how to fake speaking in tongues to insinuate himself as having the same apostolic status as Paul. 

I don’t think this chapter promotes a magic decoder ring. That would be something external. Instead it revolves around the internal “faith” , “accept”. Paul is not making a personal attack on anyone in particular but rather is challenging the position of those who do not accept the revelation of God. 

The contrast between natural and spirit is a common motif of Paul - and more so than believer or unbeliever here - - it often highlights the battle within ourselves like in Romans 8

The latter part of chapter 2 is how we reconnect in a relationship with him. I think my gullibility associated with PFAL and the Advanced Class is perhaps a failure on my part  - falling for the pseudo-intellectualism of wierwille instead of seeking a personal relationship with Jesus Christ - wierwille’s con was “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”.

Initially it is the Bible - the Word of God that revitalizes our spirit - and there’s also something self-authenticating about Scripture -  remember the words of Jesus Christ in  John 7:17    “Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”   I believe there’s something to this verse that might have to do with how our intuition and God may work together – in that metaphysical truth is self-authenticating through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit – perhaps that is also implied in passages like   John 16:13   and    I John 2:27  .

So no magic decoder ring  - more like an ongoing relationship 

~ ~ ~ ~

*internet definitions for reference points

Social intelligence is the capacity to know oneself and to know others. Social intelligence is learned and develops from experience with people and learning from success and failures in social settings. Social intelligence is the ability to understand your own and others actions.

Gullibility is a failure of social intelligence in which a person is easily tricked or manipulated into an ill-advised course of action.

Discern: to recognize or identify as separate and distinct; discriminate. discern right from wrong; to come to know or recognize mentally. unable to discern his motives; to perceive by the sight or some other sense or by the intellect; see, recognize, or apprehend: They discerned a sail on the horizon.

to have understanding : have the power of comprehension. : to achieve a grasp of the nature, significance, or explanation of something; to believe or infer something to be the case.

ad hominem argument is one that is directed against the opposing person rather than the position they’re maintaining. It can be a clear direct attack against their character or more subtly cast doubt on their personal motives. An ad hominem argument is often used so that one can undermine their opposition’s case without having to directly confront and dispute it. Normally facts are ignored in favor of appealing to emotions and prejudices. 

Superstition: a widely held but unjustified belief in supernatural causation leading to certain consequences of an action or event, or a practice based on such a belief.

Synchronicity describes circumstances that appear meaningfully related yet lack a causal connection and refers to one's subjective experience that coincidences between events in one's mind and the outside world may be causally unrelated to each other yet have some other unknown connection…

14 hours ago, JoyfulSoul said:

This won't be popular...

I went to the ROA in '87 and '88.  To this day that's what I think about as loving Christian community.   Nothing else has been close.

I hadn't been exposed to all the corruption I later heard about.  For a new person it was just the most loving, uplifting environment.   I was sky high.

A friend came back from WOW totally blown away by God.  My brother went to ROA that second year and he was lit up.

I later brought my nephew in 1993 and all the fizz was gone.  The immaculate grounds were no longer immaculate.  It just sucked.

I didn't go WOW.  I didn't go Corps.  TWI was a major stepping stone for me leaving college atheism and licentiousness and eventually linking arms with mainstream Christianity.  Sorry for all who were hurt.  Really sorry for anyone still harboring bitterness.

Welcome to Grease Spot, Joyful Soul! 

Your post brings up the difficulty in sorting out the variety of experiences in a duplicitous organization like The Way International.

Jesus Christ warned us about ravenous wolves in sheep’s clothing  Matthew 7  and Peter warned us about false teachers arising within the church  II Peter 2

A couple of takeaways from Matthew and Peter: we are to discern wolves and false teachers by their fruit (the product of their labor) and by their deviation and perversion from sound doctrine and practice.

Since you never went WOW or corps you probably only got to witness the ‘lighter side’ of TWI. It’s in the programs that one experiences TWI’s dark underbelly of indoctrination, manipulation, exploitation and abuse.

I think what’s complicated in wading through it all to figure out what’s wrong is the simple fact that it’s supposedly based on something as innocuous as the Bible. It’s a common question here on Grease Spot - “did you throw out the baby with the bath water?” Of course everyone has an opinion on what’s the baby and what’s the bath water.

I will say that PFAL did whet my appetite to enjoy hobbies like systematic and biblical theology and philosophy of religion. I’ve been WOW, corps and 12 years in TWI - but it took the ministry wide crisis in 1986 to get me to do some soul searching, acknowledge some red flags I ignored and then step back and see that TWI made some major divergence from the Bible in doctrine and practice. What’s strange to consider that when it comes to harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cults it’s more about their methods than their seemingly innocent teachings.

46 minutes ago, Mike said:

Well, maybe you will see these two patterns, IF you actually look at them.  The bias to bash really is disabling for subtle patterns like these.

BTW, one of the lists is still not posted.  You seem to be gearing your mind to reject it before I post it.

I think the next funniest thing would be if you or someone else here was to say they can be an unbiased judge.  I'm waiting for someone to imply or even state that.

43 minutes ago, Mike said:

There is no "maybe" about it. The active POSTING audience, we all know, is practiced and poised to poke holes in anything I say.

On the other hand - many of your theories are untenable - and you’re mischaracterizing the Socratic method as a bias by others…you’ve had MANY opportunities to provide evidence to support your suppositions - but you have a PATTERN of dodging and redirecting the discussion -

if you have something that is truly of merit it should be able to stand up to the toughest close scrutiny…

this is such a disappointment- when shown you are wrong or negligent in providing evidence for your theory - you whine and complain people are biased - and you seem to shrink from ever admitting you’re wrong…or just say you’ve got the info somewhere…maybe that’s your way of admitting you’re ill-prepared - and that’s okay - but don’t criticize others for inadvertently proving you are merely offering up some half-baked bull-$hit - I want that bull-$hit fully cooked! 

17 minutes ago, Mike said:

On this topic, my hunch, I am 60% happy with the idea; happy enough to invest time into it.  But with 40% uncertainty, I am always prepared to junk the idea.

 

The percentage of your happiness is irrelevant to validation 

8 minutes ago, Mike said:

I don't buy this shell game at all.  You are forgetting that our modern courtrooms are based on the Biblical backgrounds that things like the law of Moses and the courtroom scene in Job. Jesus also helped built this template for our culture with his parable about the widow who repeatedly petitioned a judge.

I think it is right and proper to look at Job as portraying a reluctant judge, who fights for Job and ultimately wins. What other interpretation IS there?

 

You’re still conflating ideas. Many legal systems and laws have their origin in the Mosaic law. but the motif in Job 1 & 2 resembles a council meeting of dignitaries - with Yahweh presiding over the meeting.
 

It fails to read as a courtroom scene with God as judge and Satan as prosecutor - because it’s missing some key elements of a court case - such as the existence of a legal duty that the defendant owed to the plaintiff, the defendant's breach of that duty, the  plaintiff's sufferance of an injury, proof that the defendant's breach caused the injury (typically defined through proximate cause). 

It was the best of times.

It was the worst of times. 

2 x 2 = 4 

45.62 x 2 = maybe something a little stronger than 90

Where’s one of those mathletes of the spirit when you need one? 

39 minutes ago, skyrider said:

What is it about cults that keeps people "hooked"..... even AFTER they separate from The Way?

What could it possibly be?  A combination of things?

• They have this attachment to their youth and days of nostalgia?
• They want to be right..... not able to admit their errors of judgment?
• They really do have a man-worship association with wierwille?
• Breaking free of mother-cult.... gives them a false sense of "growing up?"
• Living under "wierwille's roof"..... they are sheltered living in the basement?
• This mental disorder gives them license to "stay in their youth?"
• Others?

I guess, even if these corps grads and advanced class grads (300-1,000 people??)  live in their little echo chamber till the day they pass away.... what harm will it do?  Sure, family members are affected and a few in the communities at large.... but how many people dismiss their ramblings as quirks in society?  There are plenty of people in cults everywhere.  And, there are fringe trappings that obsess others.... occultists, witch covens, UFO sightings, Big Foot, Loch Ness, Abominable Snowman, etc.  

It just seems to me that there is a "convenience" to have their little world wrapped with a bow.  They like how it looks and feels under the Christmas tree.  It makes them feel good, special and important.  It all comes back to being **self-absorbed**.... not caring one whit as to all the questions that swirl around the illogic of it all.  Obviously, that doesn't bother them, because they refuse to address it in conversation or debate.  They like their little world of make-believe.

I believe we have an innate desire to make sense of the world - and it's really a lifelong  endeavor - a lot of work, ups and downs, learning curves, etc.  The Way International appealed to me because it seemed to be a shortcut - to my young and naive mind they seemed to have definitive answers for everything…it lasts for a little while - until repeated attempts to apply the things they taught failed. Reality is a hell of an acid test.

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

You seem to be an intelligent, kind hearted individual. 

I usually lock horns with Mike - I agree with what you said about him  

With wierwille it may have been a perfect storm of some unpredictable factors. wierwille tapped into the zeitgeist of youthful counterculture of the 60s and 70s, with new dynamic subcultures that celebrated experimentation and the rise of alternative lifestyles. He was an opportunist besides being a flagrant plagiarist and liked to steal from the fruit of other people’s hard work. He even set his sights on the evangelical Christian movement of “Jesus people” or “Jesus freaks”  -  there have been some discussions on Grease Spot about wierwille’s attempts to hijack the Jesus movement in 1968 & 69  - note a few pertinent links:

Jim Doop the Way West and VPW

brief timeline of wierwille’s career

about Doop and Heefner

Jimmy Doop's post Sept. 8 2005 about The Way West and wierwille wanting to control the money

11 hours ago, Mike said:

But we only get to know tiny glimpses of the spiritual side. And these glimpses would have to come from, and fit with the scriptures.

This seems to be circular reasoning:

Mike says: Get tiny glimpses of the spiritual side.

These tiny glimpses would have to come from the scriptures and fit with the scriptures.

But the ‘glimpses’ you describe are embellished…sometimes distorted – you see God as a judge in a courtroom – and I see God as sovereign Lord over satellite ‘nations’ – a divine council.

How do you know it’s not you reading into the scriptures?

So far, that’s what you’ve been doing on this thread.

For instance, you keep harping on Job 1 & 2 as depicting a modern-day legal courtroom scene with God as judge and the devil as prosecutor  – and you seem to think that is an accurate glimpse into the spiritual realm. I’ve pointed it out to you several times – here and on other threads – the culturalism in Job, depicts a divine council ( a common concept in many ancient cultures) – like the account in I Kings 22 that I shared earlier. The idea is there’s all these deities having a supernatural meeting / conference. The ancient Hebrews adapted that to their religion – so Yahweh is always depicted as the head deity…most high God…the most powerful God over all other divine beings.

How literal are we supposed to take descriptions of the supernatural?

His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in color to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude…Daniel 10:6

There’s a lot of symbolism going on there. What did that stuff represent to the people of that culture when this was written? Same goes for Job 1 & 2 and I Kings 22… The function of allegory in literature is to convey a complex idea through an in-depth metaphorical narrative. Famous allegories include Dante 's Divine Comedy, George Orwell's Animal Farm, and John Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress. All of these works use allegorical techniques to convey different messages to the ones literally written on the page. From What Is the Function of Allegory in Literature? (with pictures) (languagehumanities.org)

So what’s the main idea in Job 1 & 2 and I Kings 22? Yahweh is TOP GOD – He calls the shots!

11 hours ago, Mike said:

I am proposing in this thread that one such glimpse could be what I have described as a limitation on the interventions between the physical and the spiritual, for the purpose of limiting the devil’s ability to mess things up and hurt people.  

I think that's wishful thinking on your part...hiding your head in the sand to ignore how bad things are in the real world.

The Scriptures – like the ones I’ve already mentioned: Romans 8 NIV ,  1 Peter 5 NIV and  Hebrews 11 NIV – they speak of the mess we’re in – and continue to have – and  will  even get  worse - - due to the evil activity of both humans and demons – and not just for the secular world – but also in the church – God never promised us a trouble free life – there’s trouble without, trouble within (our own  sinful nature) – persecution, and on the news we hear more and more about bat-$hit crazy evil people committing mass-shootings, terrorist acts, vehicles and knives used as weapons…and wacko religious cult-leaders with their cult following – starting up new cults, infiltrating churches and politics (Christian Nationalism for instance) - this is all evident in passages like 2 Timothy 2 ,  Matthew 24 NIV , 2 Peter 2 NIV , 2 Corinthians 4 NIV , Romans 1 NIV ,  1 Thessalonians 3 NIV , 1 Thessalonians 5 NIV , 2 Thessalonians 2 NIV .

11 hours ago, Mike said:

The limitation can be seen (if you squint a little) in two patterns, which are lightly sprinkled in scripture. 

The first pattern is the limitation on the amount of “spiritualities” can flow through an intervention.  Don’t ask me what the spiritualities are or mean. Answers like that are not in this glimpse.  Like when Elisha asked Elisha for a double portion of spirit, what the heck does THAT mean???   We don’t know. The scriptures don’t tell us that, but they do want us to know about the double whammy part.  And please don’t ask me what whammies are. The scripture pattern of this is seen in the uses of finite measures, like Elisha did in his request.

The thing is Mike, it seems to me you get hung up in imaginary patterns – the scant scripture and weird theories that you’ve tried to correlate on this thread, may seem TO  YOU  to have some regular, intelligible, repeatable form – but – your audience isn’t buying it. Below are a few hyperlinks on deciphering patterns and codes – maybe this will help you retool:

How to Decipher a Secret Code: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow

Coding Decoding Reasoning: Know Key Concept, Solved Examples & Tips (testbook.com)

Decrypt a Message - Cipher Identifier - Online Code Recognizer (dcode.fr)

BUT bear in mind the above is about interpreting patterns…not to be confused with interpreting Scripture or translating a language. Different skill sets involved - linguistics, cultural familiarity for example. In my opinion interpreting / translating the sacred texts of The Bible to a large extent is understanding what the message meant to the original audience – and only after that can we begin to abstract relevant meaning. The subject of hidden Bible codes is beyond the scope of this post. Oy vey – don’t get me started.    

11 hours ago, Mike said:

The second pattern is the limitation on the time that the “whatevertheyare” can flow by way of the intervention.  The scripture pattern of this limitation is double spikes on a flat background on the timeline. 

the fact that YOU CANNOT  articulate what they are leads me to believe YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT...you refer to some pattern that only you can see and fail to point out to others - try as you may - you are persistent - I'll give you that 

2 hours ago, Mike said:

I’m laughing, but not surprised, because that is why I brought it here. I knew I’d get a maximally critical audience. This would be the acid test of my hunch.

maybe that's where you went wrong...instead of coming here to have your acid tested, you could have brought a sample to the DEA and have their lab do a thorough analysis - my amateur guess is that whatever it is you're tripping on has got to have some potent $hit in that LSD. that's just my opinion though - I could be wrong.

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I see the laws of physics as man-made approximations of the physical side of God's setup, which is the natural, 5-senses side, and that these man-made laws are completely blind to the spiritual realm. It is a wonder, though, how much we CAN get to know of this side.

But we only get to know tiny glimpses of the spiritual side. And these glimpses would have to come from, and fit with the scriptures.

That may be how YOU see it but that doesn’t make it so.

I believe the laws of physics were created by God. Science studies what can be observed and measured. The metaphysical realm by definition is beyond the five senses - thus beyond science.

Metaphysics is usually tackled by philosophy, theology, and such - disciplines that are  NOT hard science. The Bible is malleable - and so people…even believe it or not - fake doctors and cult-leaders can twist it around to say anything they want.

5 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

No!

Criminy! Doors are time. How many times do I have to explain it?

Not rules. Laws. LAWS. His hands are tied. He's a law maker not a law breaker. He's not strong enough or courageous enough or creative enough to break his own laws.

Hey! His willing, but he's unable. But, boy, oh boy, is he willing. But not able. Just like it sounds: A-B-L-E.

He's a pun-kass simp of a god. A construct of mortal thought. Got ta make it fit.

Golly gee whiz! 

 

Mike has a tendency to talk out of both sides of his mouth…it reminds me of wierwille’s contradictory ideas. He’d talk about God’s ineffable greatness on one hand but then he’d put God in a box with what He can and cannot do.

37 minutes ago, Mike said:

I can agree to that. 

I am here to learn also.

*/*/*/*/*

I don't believe God lies, and I believe He operates by rules we can't fathom.  "My ways are not your ways..."  is written.

 

 

Now the laws of physics are an interesting matter for you to bring up.

 

 

We could talk a long time about this, but I'll keep it brief.

 

 

I see the laws of physics as man-made approximations of the physical side of God's setup, which is the natural, 5-senses side, and that these man-made laws are completely blind to the spiritual realm. It is a wonder, though, how much we CAN get to know of this side.

 

 

But we only get to know tiny glimpses of the spiritual side. And these glimpses would have to come from, and fit with the scriptures.

 

 

I am proposing in this thread that one such glimpse could be what I have described as a limitation on the interventions between the physical and the spiritual, for the purpose of limiting the devil’s ability to mess things up and hurt people.  

 

 

The limitation can be seen (if you squint a little) in two patterns, which are lightly sprinkled in scripture. 

 

 

The first pattern is the limitation on the amount of “spiritualities” can flow through an intervention.  Don’t ask me what the spiritualities are or mean. Answers like that are not in this glimpse.  Like when Elisha asked Elisha for a double portion of spirit, what the heck does THAT mean???   We don’t know. The scriptures don’t tell us that, but they do want us to know about the double whammy part.  And please don’t ask me what whammies are. The scripture pattern of this is seen in the uses of finite measures, like Elisha did in his request.

 

 

The second pattern is the limitation on the time that the “whatevertheyare” can flow by way of the intervention.  The scripture pattern of this limitation is double spikes on a flat background on the timeline. 

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

Personally, I get a sense of “flow” from the root “vent” in the word “intervention.”

 

 

The first pattern I have not supplied any scriptures for, except the Elisha one just now.  They are coming. I just wanted to respond to some comments, and then I will get back to converting them from unreadable to readable.

 

 

The second pattern I did supply, and it keeps growing. I found another addition today.

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

 

 

 

It really is funny how committed you are to rejecting this hunch of mine, even before the first batch of scriptures you and the others were committed.  Not just gently biased against it, but fully committed.  LoL  It put on a good show for the Read-Only Audience at home, who happen to favor this hunch.

 

 

Then I posted my first list, and there was not the tiniest dent in the total bias, with more pure rejection of every point.  LoL

 

 

I’m laughing, but not surprised, because that is why I brought it here. I knew I’d get a maximally critical audience. This would be the acid test of my hunch. This way I get to see where my argument is weak and where it’s strong.  I learn which ways of expressing things works better.

 

 

Did you notice that I didn’t use the two analogy words “doors” or “budget” at all in my descriptions of the two patterns a few paragraphs above?  You had attached a lot of your bias commitment on those two words, so I thought I’d try another approach.

 

 

I wanted to respond to as many comments as I could today.  In bits and pieces I am getting the second list of scriptures ready to post.

 

 

Still - you assume God has rules - just saying 

your premises are so categorically unbiblical and untenable any reasonable person would reject them right off the bat!

your argument is weak everywhere because it has no strength of support anywhere!

Your “theories” of limitations about God or the devil are asinine - since you don’t know what you’re talking about and ignore scripture presented to debunk your goofy ideas - like earlier I Peter 5:8 …please review previous posts before you go spinning up more bull-$hit.

12 minutes ago, So_crates said:

If Saint Vic was teaching about how limited God is, he's probably setting up an excuse for the dismal failure of his "law of believing."

It's no secret that many people approached Martindale concerned about where the promised prosperity was. Martindale's response: "You want prosperity? God on welfare."

If Martindale was getting doubtful questions, you know Saint Vic was getting them too. His excuse: Well, you see, God is limited.

Excellent point, So-crates!!!!!

That’s where wierwille’s stipulations come in handy!

Didn’t receive what you were believing for?

Maybe it wasn’t available.

Maybe you weren’t really believing – you just had mental assent.

I know - you haven’t been abundantly sharing.

You ninny, you were probably out of fellowship.