T-Bone

On 10/31/2022 at 2:12 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

Sorry if this has already been posted by someone, but when I ate a cookie, I got this revelation for the 2nd time, so it's established according to the cartoon:

82: Buckets and buckets of bullshonta.

 

Careful…that’s not cookies in those jars!

On 4/13/2023 at 12:50 PM, Charity said:

What I see in what you wrote Chockfull is that we were meant to have a relationship with the class - you know the one that replaced our relationship with Christ.  It was our lord in that it had power, authority, and influence over our lives.  It was our savior in that it saved us from all the wrongly divided word taught in every other church known to mankind since the first century.  One more just for the  of it - pfal was the way, the truth and the life.  The way because of the irony of it being taught by "the way ministry," the truth because of God's 1942 promise to vp and the life because after all, it did promise us a more than abundant life. 

Now why would anyone want or need an everlasting relationship with Christ after being brainwashed to believe in "the class?
 

 

8 But what saith the sales rep? A class is nigh thee, even in thy city, and in thy home: that is, the PFAL faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth PFAL is Lord, and shalt believe in thine heart that indoctrination ain’t dead, thou shalt be brainwashed.

10 For with the heart students believeth propaganda; and with the mouth confession is made unto programming.

11 For the syllabus saith, whosoever believeth  ‘four crucified’  shall not be embarrassed during listening with a purpose questions.

12 There is no difference between   all without exception    and    all without distinction.

13 Whosoever shall be called upon to answer must quote ‘the teacher’ verbatim.

14 How then shall they be called upon if they are absent from class?

15 And they are $hit out of luck to get a refund.

16 That was part of the deal if they would not endure the class.

17 So then    no fate   cometh as quoth the Terminator franchise.

Omens 10: 8 - 17

5 hours ago, Twinky said:

If you ain't graded, you can't be a graduate.  But you can be a course completer.  Doesn't sound so good, though.

Many PFAL ‘completers’ transition to PFAL repeaters. 

54 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Realistically, the Romans liked mass executions and there were probably dozens crucified at the same time.  Jesus could have been crucified in a bunch, fore, aft and either side, of other unfortunates, quite possibly some of whom were also innocent, or were innocent of any serious crime.  There's a report of about 2000 Jews being crucified in 4BC.

https://www.livescience.com/65283-crucifixion-history.html

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/roman-crucifixion-methods-reveal-the-history-of-crucifixion/

Wikipedia has this article, which is not for the fainthearted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion. 
You read it?  I warned you!

Processing…

badoink…

whirrrrrrrr…

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LoShanta is as LoShanta does…

Elaborazione…

passaggio alla modalità numeri romani

        others crucified with Jesus Christ

 

Maybe someday AI will be able to tackle the really tough math problems.

 

Two thieves in Matthew,

two thieves in Mark.

Two malefactors in Luke.

Two others in John.

Processing…

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There were eight others crucified with Jesus Christ.

3 hours ago, Charity said:

What did it take for the truth to begin unraveling to get to us to where we are with GSC?  Did it have to start with the big folks at the top?

 

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

It took, IMO, two things. 1) The Al**ns having an air tight claim and that they were willing to air it publicly (Waydale) and in court. and 2) Memoir written by someone like Kris Skedgel. There were others who sued, but those specific events blew the doors clean off the secrecy.

People gossiped about twi sexual norms long before those two events, but it became very real with documentation.

However, there has been plenty of worldwide publicity on cults and sexual problems with authoritarian organizations other than twi over the last couple of decades.

 

 

In my opinion it takes one person at a time – the counteragent for a cult’s groupthink mindset, is when a person begins to think for themselves.

 

To me it’s a freaky and somewhat terrifying thing to look with probing eyes at a supposedly beautiful tapestry of truths…when I said to myself damn the torpedoes, let me really think about this or that…let me dust off some red flags I’ve ignored for years…then…then the web of deceit began to unknot.

I don’t think it has to start at the top – although that’s probably where it starts for most people. It was for me. In the aftermath of patriarch paper…crisis management and certain upper leadership vying for power – that was enough to make me start to doubt and question wierwille and LCM...It doesn’t always have to start with the glaring problems of top leadership. We’ve all know folks who took PFAL but didn’t stick around long – maybe they didn’t become so enamored with wierwille or LCM – maybe they just left because they saw through a lot of the bull-$hit and hype of PFAL...well good for them!

It's so complicated – the love-bombing and a sense of belonging drew many of us into a harmful and controlling cult. But the only way out is for the person to look past stuff like that…it’s hard to break ranks  ALL  BY  YOURSELF…you switch sides on the us-versus-them dichotomy…from being on the us-side to the them-side.

it’s probably one of the toughest decisions I’ve ever made in my life…funny isn’t it – you have lots of company on the journey into a cult...but you leave it alone.

~ ~ ~ ~

Understanding cult-involvement and cult-disentanglement are two very fascinating subjects! There’s so much soft-sell   tactics that come into play which subtly persuades one to buy into TWI’s ideology…And realistically there’s no one cut-and-dried method for ensnaring folks in a harmful and controlling cult. There are so many variables to consider like one’s personality, social needs…usually new recruits are young and naïve so critical thinking skills are not really developed…and the road to indoctrination is not shock therapy but rather a gradual immersion. It’s like a prolonged seductive intoxicating “romance”…a cult luring neophytes to take bigger and bigger sips of the Kool-Aid…using manipulative tactics like love-bombing, the subtle influence of peer pressure and groupthink. There’s the claims and promise of getting solid answers about life, having a purpose, God, politics, marriage, finances, whatever…

...those with low self-esteem are usually drawn to a cult-environment where they seem to be readily accepted – sadly people with low self-esteem are usually easier to break mentally / emotionally...that was me for sure       “Fortunately,” for them the cult is there as just the perfect supportive environment they’ve been looking for – and along those lines a cult member can learn to feel superior to those not in the cult – an us-versus-them mentality develops and a cult follower starts isolating themselves from family and friends not in the cult – and eventually the new social ties within the cult satisfy a basic desire we all have – to belong.

...a TWI-follower's personal boundaries are softened and eventually encroached upon by those who take advantage of their own position of power and authority...malicious and self-centered leaders have a way of getting victims to think that catering to any leader’s needs – whatever they may be. Leaders can always pull the renewed mind card and work on persuading the victim they are spiritually mature enough to handle it.

~ ~ ~ ~

Rocky mentioned the Allens, Waydale and Kristen’s book. I think why those are instrumental in waking people up is because there’s something in them that resonates with folks. Maybe they had similar experiences and knew someone who did but it was all hush-hush or they dismissed it as devilish rumors to hurt the ministry.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

Again, I just want to make the point it comes down to each person having to make up their own minds if they’ve reached a tipping point – when it seems like all the red flags, bad experiences, logical fallacies and exploitations are unstoppable as they keep rushing to the forefront of your mind. You’ve got to do something to make them stop. To stay put where you are, would be to live a lie. To try and ignore when you sense others are dealing with similar issues isn’t easy – especially if being detached from others is not your thing.

Think about why you choose or refuse something. Many times, it’s probably over customer referrals or customer complaints. That’s resonance – you’re connecting with someone else’s experience.

One of our greatest assets is the freedom to choose our response in any situation.

Around 2005 I read a great book which I still review once and awhile - Changing Minds: The Art and Science of Changing Our Own and Other People's Minds by Howard Gardner .   He said: The phenomenon of changing minds is one of the least examined and – I would claim – least understood of familiar human experiences.

He says in his book that his focus is on changes of the mind that occur   CONSCIOUSLY  as a result of forces that can be  IDENTIFIED    - in the book he notes  7 factors for changing minds . One of those factors is resonance. That’s why Grease Spot Café is important – people connect with others who have had similar bad experiences, questions, doubts.

the counteragent for a cult’s groupthink mindset, is when a person begins to think for themselves.

Be brave oh probing eyes     at a cult’s beautiful tapestry of truths…dust off those forgotten red flags…keep looking…thinking…enquiring and that tapestry will unravel.

39 minutes ago, Charity said:

There is nothing I've read that speaks of Bickle being a drunken narcissist, abuser, sexual predator or plagiarist like wierwille.  What is similar is the harm that IHOP's programs have caused some of their followers.  I'm sure IHOP dismisses and argues against what these people have to say just as twi dismisses and argues against what posters on GSC have to say.  

How any of what's described below is a result of Bickle's doctrine can be researched online.  Why any of it is of importance to the readers of GSC - maybe it will help a current or ex-twi follower see what cult-like organizations have in common so they can remove their own rose-colored glasses about twi.  Anyway, here are some of the ways IHOP's harm has been described...

Yikes!

well… …my comments were in reference just to the linked article you mentioned, and that was mostly about doctrine / theory and NOT practice…shows you what I know. 

1 hour ago, Charity said:

Hi T-Bone,

Here's one website about Bickle's doctrine about the end times to compare with with you've learned so far.  (You might have to copy and paste if you can't click on it to open.)

https://www.equip.org/articles/forerunner-eschatology/

As a TSFAWTSAS, have you come across a "preacher" who has devised an organization of programs, practices and basic principles of how young Christians are to behave and prepare for the end times they are helping to usher in (using scriptures from OT and Revelation)? 

 

 

Hi Charity, to answer your question - yes I have  - explanation to follow .

Thanks for the hyperlink – I have copied that to a laptop file for further analysis sometime in the near future – I have several light and heavy reading and studying projects going on right now…However, I did copy and paste some excerpts below – it’s in my standard bold blue font to indicate it’s copied from the noted source…rather than offering a point-by-point critique I chose to designate dubious sections in bold red font. Grease Spotters can draw their own conclusions from this article.

I will leave you all with two thoughts:

1.       Check out the 2 links I gave in previous post:

eschatology discussion by Dr. Heiser 

prophecy and eschatology: the rapture by Dr. Heiser

and when I say check them out – it might take a little work  (depending on how much one has bought into wierwille’s teachings like 4 crucified, the Holy Spirit/holy spirit, 6 cocks-a-crowing   where he would join different passages together that shouldn’t be – or split the same account into separate events – you’ll see what I mean about being “a joiner” or a “splitter” once you listen to Heiser’s prophecy + eschatology: rapture You Tube.).

2.       In light of the title of this thread – I’m sure a lot of cult-survivors who read this article will see similarities of IHOP with TWI as far as generating a spiritual elitism attitude, manipulative jargon, and ‘self-assuming greatness’.

 ~ ~ ~ ~

Excerpts from the Christian Research Institute hyperlink:

 …Today, the primary interpretative systems of biblical eschatology are known as premillennialism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism,9 and within these distinct systems there are varying perspectives. Bickle identifies his end-time teaching as an exclusive brand of premillennialism that he calls “apostolic premillennialism.”

 Apostolic Premillennialism

 Bickle distinguishes his apostolic premillennialism from dispensational premillennialism by rejecting a pretribulation rapture for a conquering church that prays and ministers through Revelation’s Great Tribulation, resulting in the salvation of Israel and the largest mission harvest in history. Otherwise, Bickle’s apostolic premillennialism differs little from dispensational premillennialism and incorporates many of the core interpretative and chronological scenarios popularized by Hal Lindsey. These include, for example, a literalist hermeneutic of the Book of Revelation, separate redemptive plans for Israel and the church, a personal Antichrist leading a revived Roman empire and one-world government, a rebuilt Jerusalem temple and reinstituted sacrificial system, the mark of the beast as a microchip implanted in the hand or forehead, a seven-year Great Tribulation, and the earthly millennial reign of Jesus following His second coming.

 

Bickle uses the adjective “apostolic” in describing his premillennialism in an effort to emphasize the kind of church he is laboring to build. He believes he is preparing an army of Christians who will triumph during the soon-coming crisis of the Antichrist’s global rule and the Great Tribulation.

He preaches a self-identified apostolic Christianity characterized by intimacy with Jesus as bridegroom, wholehearted fulfillment of the Great Commandment, self-denial holiness, Sermon-on-the-Mount living, Holy Spirit empowerment, justice, fasting, prayer, and worship. Whereas Bickle has taught many of these worthy topics since the 1980s, my primary concern is that in the last couple of years he has begun to reteach them, wrapping them tightly in his exclusive end-time teaching and his distinct interpretation of the Book of Revelation.

 Forerunner Eschatology 

You don’t have to be around the IHOP movement very long before you are exposed to a large glossary of insider terms and phrases, such as wilderness lifestyle, friend of the Bridegroom, Daniel anointing, eating the scroll, fasted lifestyle, burning and shining lamps, wholehearted lovers, zones of glory, corridor of glory, and many more that could be added.18

 

A cautionary red light should go on whenever we discover any church or Christian movement creating, and extensively using, their own exclusive language. The habitual use of insider language by a Christian movement can develop a we-are-different culture vis-a-vis the greater church. Soon a person’s use of prescribed terms and phrases is the way to determine whether they are true “insiders.” It can also easily create a “us” and “them” attitude within the Body of Christ. Many Christians living within such a cloistered culture can often find it difficult to leave or relate with other Christians, who do not speak “their language,” and who are frequently seen as spiritually lukewarm or compromising.

 

This becomes especially disconcerting when most inside a Christian movement begin to “talk alike” and parrot the same terms and phrases in their prayers and songs. This emerging reality at IHOP can be demonstrated by listening to the rapid prayer times in their “Prayer Room” or to the lyrics of the songs of IHOP’s quality worship musicians and singers.

 

More than all of IHOP’s inside terms, however, it is the word “forerunner” that is nearly ubiquitous. Among IHOP’s ministries, there is the Forerunner Christian Fellowship, Forerunner Music Academy, Forerunner School of Ministry, Forerunner Media School, Forerunner Evangelism, and Forerunner Books. It is safe to say that “forerunner” is the brand name of Bickle’s IHOP ministry. The use of the word “forerunner” is no accident. In fact, “forerunner eschatology” provides the greatest insight into the inner ethos and ministry thrust of Bickle and IHOP.

 

Although Bickle admits that Christians can’t predict the exact “day or hour” of Jesus’ second coming, he firmly claims that we can know the specific “season” of His return and boldly tells his followers that he believes the end of the world will unfold in this generation.

 

In light of Bickle’s conviction that we are living in the generation of Jesus’ second coming, he preaches that, as God raised up John the Baptist to be a forerunner preparing his generation for Jesus’ first coming, God is now raising up an elite end-time forerunner movement within the church. This movement will prepare this generation for the soon-coming Great Tribulation and Jesus’ return.

 

Bickle believes God has anointed him to call forth and train these end-time Christian forerunners. He is praying for thousands of last-days “forerunner Christians” to be raised up within this generation as special prophetic voices that will emerge in the spirit and power of Elijah and defeat the Antichrist’s soon-coming one-world government and religion by praying the “battle plan” of the Book of Revelation.

 The End-Time Forerunner Church 

Bickle teaches that Jesus’ second coming can be delayed or sped up according to the degree of the church’s spiritual maturity and readiness. He declares that most Christians are waiting passively for Jesus to return, when in actuality, Jesus is waiting for the church to prepare itself as the pure Bride of Christ and to ready itself to launch the last-day divine war to drive evil from the earth and cleanse it so that it can be filled with God’s love and glory.

 

Bickle does not simply preach that the church will go through the Great Tribulation sealed by God’s sovereign power, but that the end-time church will actually cause God’s judgments to be released on the earth through prophetic prayer. In other words, the end-time praying church will not simply be helpless martyrs during the Great Tribulation; it will victoriously establish justice on the earth by releasing the devastating Great Tribulation judgments on the Antichrist’s global evil empire.

 

At the end of December 2008, Bickle ratcheted up his end-time enthusiasm by passionately announcing that IHOP’s OneThing Conference would mark a major defining moment within the IHOP prayer movement, and would primarily center around his interpretation and implementation of the Book of Revelation.

Bickle declared that it was time for the prayer movement to realize that it will be the primary agent to transition human history to the age to come through “prayers of faith that not only heal, but also kill,” releasing the heavenly arsenals through intercession that will strike the Antichrist’s political, military, and economic power bases across the earth. The end times will reveal a “killing Jesus” who is covered with blood as He marches through Jordan to free Jerusalem while engaging the Antichrist’s army in physical combat.

 

Based on Bickle’s end-time teaching, Jesus’ second coming has preconditions. He teaches that Jesus will not return until the global church is crying out “Come, Lord Jesus” with a full understanding of her identity as the Bride of Christ. Jesus will only return when the church is functioning in the unity of the Spirit and is anointed in prayer to release the destructive end-time tribulation judgments.

 

Bickle envisions that the end-time forerunner church will be an advanced “apostolic” movement. They will experience “greater things” than the apostles themselves. They will function as the last day Moses who through prayer releases God’s plagues on the Antichrist, the end-time Pharaoh. Bickle emphasizes that during the end times, Moses’ miracles and the miracles of the Book of Acts will be combined and multiplied on a global level as the praying church looses God’s judgments on the earth. This is why Bickle calls the Book of Revelation the “End-Times Book of Acts,” meaning that the Book of Revelation reveals the acts of the Holy Spirit that will be demonstrated through the end-time praying church.

 

Bickle goes even further to add another eschatological interpretive twist to Matthew 16:18–19: “I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” He claims that Jesus’ statement refers to the end-time church’s possession of the keys of the kingdom through prayer that will drive hell off the planet during the Great Tribulation. The church will exercise binding and loosing end-time authority over God’s judgments assuring that the gates of hell—the Antichrist’s evil empire—will not prevail.31

Forerunner “Wilderness Lifestyle”

 Bickle engages in another eschatological twist of the Bible when he exhorts Christians to follow the representative example of John the Baptist and dedicate themselves to live a sacrificial “wilderness lifestyle” of fasting and prayer so that they can emerge one day as “forerunner voices” prior to Jesus’ second coming. Bickle claims that “on May 7, 1997, the Lord spoke to me about believing Him to raise up 10,000 forerunners who live in the spirit of John the Baptist as friends of the Bridegroom (Jn 3:29).”…

…The End-Time Prayer Movement

 

There is nothing more central to Bickle’s eschatology than his teaching concerning the end-time prayer and prophetic movement. Building on the 24/7 prayer example of the historic Moravians and the contemporary South Korean practice of fervent prayer and consecrated prayer mountains, IHOP is spreading a passion for intercessory prayer and worship throughout the church…

End of excerpts from Forerunner Eschatology: Mike Bickle's End-Time Teaching and the International House of Prayer - Christian Research Institute (equip.org)     (https://www.equip.org/articles/forerunner-eschatology/)

~ ~ ~ ~

Some random thoughts. I don't want to give anyone the idea I put Bickle in the same class as wierwille who was a harmful and controlling cult-leader. Some of Bickle's theology / theory / practices are suspect in my opinion - but that's due to differing point of view on my part. I know nothing of Bickle's personal behavior - and in such cases I give people a benefit of a doubt - assuming they practice what they preach - unlike wierwille the supreme hypocrite.

1 hour ago, Charity said:

After spending over a week reading about Mike Bickle’s doctrines and his International House of Prayer (IHOP), as well as looking at websites which describe IHOP as a cult, my fellowship with Christ and any fruit of the spirit in my life I had took a nosedive.  It was only when I realized I needed a break from “all things Bickle” and began reading Philippians that my heart almost instantly became lighter and the vice on my brain loosened. 

It now makes me wonder though what happens to Christians, especially young ones, when they are fed a steady diet of only one particular food group at the expense of the others.  This is what I believe Mike Bickle and his International House of Prayer is doing.

His particular food group or focus of scripture is on the end times where he emphasizes the church as being the beloved bride of Christ calling for her bridegroom (based on the Song of Solomon and Revelation 22:17), the role prayer and songs of worship (as in his 24/7 prayer house) play in bringing about the return of Christ; and his plan to build an insatiable hunger in young people to participate in these two aspects of his ministry. 

This hunger is an extremely emotional one, is deepened by the isolation of his intern program for 18-25 year olds and is heavily fed with prophetic words given by every Tom, Dick and Harry who graduate from his “School of Messengers.” (SOM is for believers who sense a call to be prophetic messengers as voices and light to others.)

The point is - it’s not just the errors in his end-time teachings (which for me at this time is mostly based on what others say who have studied his work) but it’s the fact that they overshadow our walk with Christ.  It's very similar to how the "upmost" importance of vp's doctrine, drive, push, vision for every twi believer to move the word PFAL over the world encompassed our lives and diminished our relationship with Christ.

Great post, Charity !!!!

I learn so much from reading about how others navigate this unusual journey through often treacherous waters.

End times is a toughie – and on stuff like that I consider all options on the table until I find definitive proof something is untenable…this year I’ve been checking out some of the late Dr. Heiser’s stuff  and currently I’m leaning more towards the idea that “the rapture” is a misunderstanding of certain Scriptures that may be addressing the same concept presented in the book of Revelation…here’s a couple of hyperlinks as food for thought:

Eschatology Series by Dr. Michael Heiser

Prophecy and Eschatology: the Rapture by Dr. Michael Heiser

 

Even if "the rapture" doctrine is correct - TWI misused it to encourage people to take no thought about the future - because it could happen any second - with addendum thoughts like since we're going to heaven anyway you can do whatever you want now - one can interpret that anyway you want - but for those who have deadened consciences it could mean they can live like the devil! 

 

I like to think of myself as tech support for and with the sinners and saints…or TSFAWTSAS for short.   That’s not to say I know a lot – just that I figured out how a few things work – and so have others – and using the fundamentalist’s dichotomy    of sinners and saints, I learn from others no matter their belief system and like to share what I’ve learned…it’s a whole give-and-take thing.

 

16 hours ago, chockfull said:

131.  You can’t just “take the class” once and be done with it.  It becomes an endless repeat loop throughout all life.

a. Take the class

b.  Serve on class crew

c.  Get everyone you know to “take the class”

d. Go out on an ambassador one year program to spend a year convincing others to “take the class”.

e. Enter a “lifetime of Christian service” program centered around running the class multiple times per year.

f. In retirement as “emeritus” help others by serving on class crew and “undershepherding” others until you die.

Anything on endless loop repeat sucks.

 

13 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

 
Yeah. I've been thinking about this for some time.

Never has it been suggested to me after graduating from an academic institution or a professional training course or a course in leadership or the 5th grade that I should repeat that course study. That's why it's called graduation!

The word grad is so misused with respect to PFAL. If one feels the need to thanklessly endure a 33 hour "holding forth" session dozens, even hundreds, of times, I submit that very repeating proves there is no graduation, because there is no real teaching, no real learning.

If everyone misses so much the first time, the problem is not the "student." It's the "class." It's "the teacher."

I am so grateful to have studied under some truly amazing teachers in my life, academically, professionally, and spiritually. Thinking about them now, I am humbly awestruck at their skill as teachers and leaders and mentors.

The weak teachers are valuable, also. They show me how NOT to teach. They are the dark making obvious the light. They are the chaff to the wheat. I am grateful for the contrast they provide.

victor paul wierwille is among the top two worst "teachers" I have ever encountered. And that "class" is among the top two worst I've ever thanklessly endured.

victor and his sycophants can't even comprehend what it means to teach, to learn.

 

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

It is true that interactions surrounding “the class” more fit descriptions for either brainwashing or whitewashing as opposed to “learning”.

Grads of PFAL

It just occurred to me you all may have uncovered … or discovered - depending on the situation with the covers    - a cultic euphemism …or for those who are morally ‘loosened up’ and like to get jiggy with the jargon (ewww…just ewwww).

euphemism = a mild or indirect word or expression substituted for one considered to be too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing."“downsizing” as a euphemism for cuts"

The Bible speaks of believers who have died as fallen asleep in Christ.

Being called a PFAL grad is a nice way to say that one is stuck in an endless cycle of indoctrination…what comes to mind is an action-packed 2014 film Edge of Tomorrow and has the tag line live…die…repeat

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

. In retirement as “emeritus” help others by serving on class crew and “undershepherding” others until you die.

Well…that would impress the hell out of me…your tombstone should read

He was a class act

As a big fan of yours, I’d like to be the eugoogalizer at your funeral - I’ve already got it together:

Alas poor Chockfull…

he knew 

that he knew 

that he knew 

the PFAL class was priceless 

and by that he meant it was worthless 

On 4/10/2023 at 4:57 AM, Twinky said:

These days, I still aim to give away around 10% of my income.  

I cheerfully donate to the work of my church, which is big in outreach, especially to underprivileged families.  I also choose various international charities, and a couple of local charities working to support and uplift very vulnerable and street homeless people. 

I do this because I have a thankful heart that acknowledges how very much I have myself, in healthcare, clean safe water, food, education, housing, etc; and how very little some people elsewhere have.

All of these charities I'm satisfied meet real needs.  Yes, some of the money goes in administration and staffing costs.  But the bulk really does go to supporting the people in need.  

 

Whereas, money given to TWI goes into coffers to pay for - what, exactly?  Sure, some salaries (but then, don't people live on a need basis? LoL) and buildings do need upkeep (but usually the labour costs are free, it's just the materials that need to be paid for).  I am aware of a "scholarship" that was given to a trainee in my WC to a male from a poorer African country - but again, the "costs" of training in the WC are negligible, and I'm sure there'd be an ulterior motive - send him back where he came from, to recruit new people (and gain thus their minimal income).

 

PFAL sucks because it doesn't teach giving from love and a thankful heart, it teaches giving from fear and obligation.

And it's absolutely nobody else's business what any individual chooses to give, in the quiet of their own heart, whether that be the smallest or the largest amount.

Really cool, Twinky and that’s a big difference from the TWI model!

What comes to mind is Galatians:

All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along...Galatians 2:10

 

As an organization – supposedly a ministry – a ‘church’ – one of the most important attributes is being charitable – and TWI does not have that!

 

I’d rather not start that vicious cycle again …I don’t like it when I sense certain wierwille fans may be trying to guilt-trip me for : 

1. not looking past all of wierwille’s shortcomings 

and

2. Going in the way corps and following the man of god’s exact orders.

 

 

But then again - I’m a glutton for punishment so maybe I will ask him…

…and gluttony is a sin…that’s part of that viscious  cycle I guess. 

5 hours ago, Twinky said:

Where did he get that rubbish phrase anyway?

I can appreciate that a trained physicist might feel that way.  But vpw?  If his maths skills were anything like as good as his English skills - well, hahahaha.  The man didn't understand English, neither words nor grammar.  (Let alone Greek or Aramaic, what a joke.)

That has to be another phrase that this thief stole from some more worthy person.

 

41 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

This is demonstrably, objectively true. I would add Hebrew and Latin to the list of languages he simply didn’t understand. Anyone who is curious or doubtful of this observable fact can find out for themselves.

Language skills are sadly lacking among every demographic in this country, even among our educators. I am constantly correcting the poorly written documents my son brings home from school.

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

It also is telling way publications had to rework all of his printed publications to take his crazy claims out, sanitize his rants, and hide his lacking command of languages.

My oh my…we’ve come a long way from the 1942 promise, God’s audible voice, snow covered gas pumps, a guy with a lame arm, plagiarized material, doggie porn and molesting women …oh…I’m sorry - just trying to remember why I was supposed to trust and believe wierwille. 

When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here; the Lord has sent me to Bethel.” 

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.

 

Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away. He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds. Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.

 

 

For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison

 

8 minutes ago, cman said:

no one went to heaven before Jesus, he was the first to complete the journey

About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray.  As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.  Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus.  They spoke about his departure,  which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.  Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him.  As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)

While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.  A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”  When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.

 

31 minutes ago, Mike said:

Let's get back to the topic.
What do you believers in consciousness after death, or consciousness in spite of death, think about the "second" Lazarus, who was Jesus best friend. Do you think this Lazarus was unhappy that Jesus yanked him back to Earth from Heaven?

First off,  since I am unsure if there is consciousness after death as I expressed previously > my March 30th 2023 9:55 PM post on death, and where does the soul / spirit go   and  >  my April 4th 2023 7:12 PM post defining consciousness is the $64,000 question!  so, not sure if I meet the requirements for your survey.

Secondly, as far as I know anyway - there was never a National Israelite Enquirer issue with the headline JESUS RAISES FRIEND FROM THE DEAD – BUT FRIEND IS UNGRATEFUL! …however,  I could be mistaken...let me check on my collection of back issues of NIE…next to the pile of old Way Magazines – I’ll get back to you if I find something.

 

18 minutes ago, Mike said:

Well, I mean REALLY obvious.

It was only in the very early stages that I think he had no idea.

It says he was a man, so we as men ought to be able to relate to what he experienced. 

One human reaction to hearing something outrageous is to think "Did I HEAR that wrong?"  or another is  "DId they really mean to say THAT?"

I think it takes a few rounds for humans to be totally convinced of very unusual things, at times.

Wow wee wow…doubling down on stupidity…okay…think about who you’re talking about and the sequence and context of the situation - obviously you did not REALLY notice what the text informs us about - Jesus was LED by the Spirit TO BE TEMPTED BY the DEVIL…obviously Jesus knew what was going on and who He was dealing with…one of the many lessons we can draw out of this account is to learn to be discerning like Jesus - wish I wasn’t so naive in ‘74 when I took PFAL and fell for all the bull-$hit deceptive teachings of wierwille! 

23 minutes ago, Mike said:

I surmise without evidence, that Jesus probably thought at first that the vision was his Father or a good angel, and that is why he allowed a conversation to take place.  As soon as it was apparent it was a counterfeit to Jesus, by the mishandling of the written Word, Jesus ended the conversation. 

 

I think your speculation is pure ‘fantasy’ .  There is   NOTHING   in the temptations recorded in Matthew 4    and  Luke 4 that even remotely suggests what Jesus thought or why He continued the conversation…and it’s shameful you have such a low opinion of Jesus Christ – as well as projecting your own stupidity into the text.

You’re trying to convince me that it took a couple of rounds of temptations for it to become obvious to Jesus that He was talking to a deceiver ?!?!

OMG Mike you so funny!                   

3 hours ago, Mike said:

Not one of them got tricked into thinking that dead people can really talk. 

tricked = to deceive someone, often as a part of a plan.

Sounds like you have a conspiracy theory on this. 

Please provide scriptural evidence to support your theory that someone or some group had infiltrated the Jewish community and had a scheme to get Israelites to think dead people can talk...no essays please - just Scripture will do.

 

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

Talking dead people is fantasy.

fantasy = the power or process of creating especially unrealistic or improbable mental images in response to psychological need.

metaphor = a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

fantasize on developing your own definitions of fantasy and metaphor.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

It took me a long time to understand the way ADAN handles this story of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.

I now see it as a cultural thing.

The people loved parables, and Jesus reached them often that way.

apparently you  STILL  have a misunderstanding of not only ADAN but the Lazarus parable

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Imagine yourself in a movie theater, about to see a drama or something.  The lights go out, and a cartoon comes on.  What happens?  The people love it and laugh and applaud as the Merry Melodies play. Then everyone eats up the talking animals like Bugs Bunny cracking jokes, and that Wiley Coyote gets smashed by a giant heavy rock, only to get up and continue the chase.

No one gets the idea from the cartoon that animals can really talk.

When Jesus ran the Parables Reel at his shows, the people loved it!  Not one of them got tricked into thinking that dead people can really talk. 

Please provide historical evidence for The Jesus Show, preferably specific Parables Reel. So far you've presented a gag reel of dubious origin... time-traveling Tik Toks will be acceptable provided Jerusalem et al - both past and present don't have any security concerns and restrictions to you posting those Tik Toks.

 

 

2 hours ago, Mike said:

They just did not have the centuries of twisted training to think that the dead are alive now.  They loved the teaching of principles in a fantasy setting.

training = the action of teaching a person a particular skill or type of behavior.

who was providing the centuries of this twisted training ?

Do you have documentation / evidence to support that assertion?

 

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Jesus would not speak a parable that would mislead his audience.

Are you the  spokesperson for Jesus' intentions?

 

1 hour ago, Mike said:

The Gospels document that the people loved Jesus' parables.  Meditate a little on that.

Please provide Scripture references to show people loved Jesus' parables. Meditate on what providing this documentation means...it does NOT mean a long essay. 

 

14 hours ago, Exidor said:

Fascinating subject. The symbolism and figurative language can make some things in the Bible hard to decipher no doubt.

One indication from the New Testament that the deceased are aware or conscious but the body is dead is from Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus(Luke Chapter 16:vs19-31) In the parable Jesus described the rich man and the beggar (Lazarus) dying. Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom which was a pleasant place to be. The rich man went to Hades where he was tormented. Abraham was able to speak to the rich man but there was a great distance between them.

I forget how this story is described in ATDAN book by VPW. Some say that it was just a story Jesus used to make a moral point but they imply that the description of Sheol was not literal. Some commentators see Sheol with two compartments: Hades being the compartment reserved for the wicked and Abraham's bosom or paradise being the compartment where the righteous go until the resurrection.

 

I believe you are correct, Exidor.

 Sheol is used some 66 times in the OT, translated as realm of the dead or grave…I find it fascinating that ancient Israel was not interested in the dead – the way other ancient cultures were…makes me think of  books of Job and Ecclesiastes – Yahweh is not God of the dead but of the living…they walked by faith in this life…not to read too much into it – but was there an underlying thought that what followed after one’s life was relatively unimportant? Don’t mind me – just thinking out loud here.

 

Hades mentioned in the parable of Luke 16 is usually associated with the eternal place of punishment as seen in Luke 10:15 and   Matthew 11:20 - 24 .

Luke 16 has several parables and as you mentioned we’re not supposed to understand them as literal. So, they’re not true to fact but to principle – with the principle of reversal as shown in Luke 16: 27, 28 – reminding people they should repent while they still can (while they’re still alive.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

Way 

I dig your picture of Exidor. He was one of my favorite recurring characters on Mork and Mindy…one episode, Mork returned home and was repeating Exidor’s instructions even mimicking his delivery: all aliens must report to the immigraaaaaation bureau…oh and excuse my bad manners I should have welcomed you to Grease Spot with nanu nanu. 

 

5 hours ago, cman said:

Seriously? You are not your body.

Seriously?

then resurrection is for optional accessory?

10 minutes ago, cman said:

Seriously? You are not your body.

That’s not what I asked