T-Bone

3 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

"Spiritual commodities."

 

 

I rest my case.

 

3 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Come now...there's spiritual coffee..usually stretched...spiritual money goes into the horn o plenty, there's spiritual orange juice, spiritual oil, spiritual partners...you know.....spiritual commodities...where's your beeeleving....Mogadishu lo shontabananarama.

2 hours ago, So_crates said:

On what stock exchange are spiritual commodities listed?

2 hours ago, OldSkool said:

New Jerusalem Mercantile Exchange.

2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

 

A limited volume of shares are also traded on the New Knoxville Stock Exchange (NKSE).

Maggie Muggins, Johnny Jumpup, Henry Boloko, and Snowball Pete are licensed traders. They can help you plan for your spiritual future.

To clear the confusion, I'm telling you this today. I'm not telling you this yesterday, I'm not telling you this tomorrow. I realize this isn't obvious. That's why today I'm telling you that I'm telling you today.

Math! So accurate!

Geez, have you heard about the leak of classified files recently? Yeah, you know the ones, where the leaker even altered some of them to spread disinformation.

Here below is one altered file from TWI’s spiritual commodities graph of a typical followers 3-year involvement – note it shows an average of 89% loss in money, resources, quality of life, career opportunities, and harmony in the home.

Apparently – in an effort to misdirect attention away from TWI’s exploitative schemes, the leaker deliberately mislabeled the file to look like a graph from the great depression:

3 hours ago, Mike said:

Continuing to look at the idea and not the invalid criticisms, I ask you this:
WHY would God put the idea of limited measure in where spiritual commodities are being talked about?

We have no way of performing such measurements, nor understand what they mean.... YET God outs that idea of limited measure of spirit in the scriptures. 

I am trying to understand what He is telling us here.

I’m continuing to ignore Mike’s disregard for valid criticism – so any folks at home wanting to play along in the 20,000-Hours Worth of a Pyramid Scheme Called PFAL,  please review  my post  …and while you're here enjoy a tune that is sure to uplift your wallets, bless ye of little cognitive skills,  The Class is gonna scam ya

God did NOT   “put the idea of limited measure in where spiritual commodities are being talked about” – MIKE did!

And MIKE  ALSO  made up  HIS OWN modern terms “spiritual commodities” in case you missed that misdirection. 

4 hours ago, Mike said:

FINITE MEASURE  versus  INFINITE

I realize that using the word budget is a real hot loaded word a real attention getter. I used it to get my own attention in my file cabinet with my paper folder for this topic. It was a very underused folder and it needed an attention getting name to avoid getting completely lost in my file cabinet but it communicates something to me and I haven’t been real clear about what that is, so then so I’m finally getting to that.

1.)I don’t think “budget” is a hot loaded word – what got my attention was that it’s an inappropriate word for an idea you’re trying to shoehorn into a silly theory.

Part of why it seems like your forcing the concept into the Bible is that you’re using modern ideas to interpret ancient thought. (I get more into this in point 4 below modern vs ancient) . Reminds me of how wierwille erroneously taught about the Holy Spirit / holy spirit. Besides misconstruing of a separate entity ( a clone? )– distinct from the Holy Spirit – wierwille also used the car battery analogy to explain how this separate entity – holy spirit – powered the 9 manifestations. This gets into a whole other topic of how wrong wierwille got this – if someone’s interested in rehashing wierwille-doctrine and comparing that to biblical theology on the Holy Spirit, feel free to start a thread in doctrinal. I may or may not contribute, if I have the time – got other study and reading projects going on right now…anyway to summarize car battery, budgets, and mini-me-holy spirits  modern mumbo jumbo gumbo to feed the elephant in the collaterals code name Operation Dumbo.

4 hours ago, Mike said:

This is the beginning list I promised for the budget scriptures.  It seems that dumping the whole list here would mean some items get less scrutiny, so I’ll do it in pieces.

2.)why not give your audience a little more credit than that. I could be wrong, but that seems to me like you’re either bluffing [because you don’t have the whole list] or you’re afraid some items will not hold up well under scrutiny…have some respect for the intelligence of others and let them choose from the entire menu of your post(s).

It does take some courage to put yourself out there – because you’re opening yourself up – becoming vulnerable. But that helps to develop a rapport with your audience – and with the feedback loop of Grease Spot Café – that would be in keeping with your desire for brainstorming.

Another impractical thing about doing this in pieces is that you lose continuity. That’s probably one of the most obfuscating and deceitful things about PFAL – it was wierwille’s piecemeal attempt to cobble together a weird theology. If you follow that pattern you’ll probably confuse others and lose their attention.

4 hours ago, Mike said:

The reason budget is such a crazy attention getter is because we intuitively know that God is infinite and unbounded and not limited to budgets. But we also know that God doesn’t always get His way on the Earthly flesh realm that we live in and die in. The “Our Father” prayer that Jesus taught embodies this paradox, this anomaly, this “What is going on here?” the universe that we’re living in, where God’s will is rarely done on Earth.

3.)already explained why “budget” got my attention [see point 1]. I can’t speak for others – but I will challenge your idea that  “we intuitively know that God is infinite and unbounded and not limited to budgets.”

just reflecting on that for my journey so far, it might best be described as undulating waves on a self-awareness oscilloscope . Graphically displaying over a lifetime the rise-and-fall-and-rise-and-fall-etcetera of tides - the ebb and flow of what I think I know about God [probably some childish thoughts, clumsy conclusions, false ideas, fantasies, and sci-fi stuff] along with the undercurrents and undertow  of my belief system, good & bad habits, sins & imperfections…since there is no constant reference point I don’t think I’m in a position to determine if God is unlimited – or for that matter even knowing what that means.

BUT – your mention of how people might intuitively know something reminded me of a cool book Rocky mentioned earlier  A Short History of Myth by Karen Armstrong  and in response to his recommendation I chimed in with The Case for God by Karen Armstrong – you might enjoy checking those 2 books out…this stuff gets into philosophy of religion and what drives people to look inward and outward…

…the more I think about it getting into alternate sources of inspiration might do you a world of good – since it seems to me you either have a wierwille/PFAL-centric frame of thought or extrapolate out from a wierwille/PFAL a position of central prominence or importance…if you’re interested in broadening your horizons I could recommend a few systematic theologies and stuff on hermeneutics. I’m not suggesting that any reference is perfect – but the ones I favor stand up to close scrutiny and present a coherent organization of the important tenets of Christianity.

4 hours ago, Mike said:

...And then it changed with Jesus.

John 3:34-35
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Jesus was given spirit without measure, as opposed to the way things were done in the Old Testament were spirit was given with measure. Jesus got an infinite dose of spirit whatever that means.

4.A)modern vs ancient…using modern concepts to interpret ancient ideas. (a follow-up of point 1) I believe you are probably misinterpreting John 3:34   For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God [proclaiming the Father’s own message]; for God gives the [gift of the] Spirit without measure [generously and boundlessly]! For so reads the Amplified version. Some info from NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible , The NET Bible: Second Beta Edition Edition , and NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible: Bringing to Life the Ancient World of Scripture speak of an idiom referencing Leviticus Rabbah  which is a homiletic midrash to the Biblical book of Leviticus, and thou online commentaries offer various interpretations most reflect the same idea of the Messiah’s unique stature as the Son of God. Perhaps in our modern way of thinking when you measure something, you’re gauging quantity – but from what I gather of the culturalisms, the idiom simply conveys the concept of Jesus Christ being unique and being authenticated by the Holy Spirit as the Messiah:

Expositor's Greek Testament

John 3:34. The reason assigned for the truth and trustworthiness of Christ’s words is scarcely the reason we expect: οὐ γὰρ … Πνεῦμα. John has told us that Christ is to be believed because He testifies of what He hath seen and heard: now, because the Spirit is given without measure to Him. The meaning of the clause is contested. The omission of ὁ θεός does not materially affect the sense, for ὁ θεός would naturally be supplied as the nominative to δίδωσι from τοῦ θεοῦ of the preceding clause. There are four interpretations. (1) Augustine, Calvin, Lücke, Alford, suppose the clause means that God, instead of giving occasional and limited supplies of the Spirit as had been given to the prophets, gives to Christ the fulness of the Spirit. (2) Meyer thinks that the primary reference is not to Christ but that the statement is general, that God gives the Spirit freely and abundantly, and does thus dispense it to Christ. (3) Westcott, following Cyril, makes Christ the subject and understands the clause as meaning that He proves His Messiahship by giving the Spirit without measure. (4) Godet makes τὸ πνεῦμα the subject, not the object, and supposes the meaning to be that the Spirit gives to Christ the words of God without measure. The words of John 3:35 seem to weigh in favour of the rendering of A.V[47]: “God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him”. The R.V[48] is ambiguous. ἐκ μέτρου, out of a measure, or, by measure, that is, sparingly. So ἐν μέτρῳ in Ezekiel 4:11. Wetstein quotes: “R. Achan dixit: etiam Spiritus S. non habitavit super Prophetas nisi mensura quadam: quidam enim librum unum, quidam duos vaticiniorum ediderunt”. The Spirit was given to Jesus not in the restricted and occasional manner in which it had been given to the O.T. prophets, but wholly, fully, constantly. It was by this Spirit His human nature was enlightened and guided to speak things divine; and this Spirit, interposed as it were between the Logos and the human nature of Christ, was as little cumbrous in its operation or perceptible in consciousness as our breath which is interposed between the thinking mind and the words which utter it.

End of excerpt from  Bible Hub John 3:34 Commentaries

4 hours ago, Mike said:

Which brings us to the great principle. But more on that later.

4.B)too big a topic to rehash here

Please review  OldSkool's thread "Great Principle Whitewashed?"_Sunday Jan. 1st 2023, 10:00AM

4 hours ago, Mike said:

Elisha said, “Leave me a double portion of your spirit…”

Elisha had a natural man mind that was enmity against God, and thought the things of God were foolishness, and had a natural reaction of fear to any kind of spiritual intervention by the true God. Daniel 9 talks about the reactions of the other people around Daniel to the angelic visit and how fearful they were about it, resembling the way wild animals are afraid of humans.  

 

2 Kings 2:9 When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “What can I do for you, before I am taken away from you?” Elisha answered, “May I receive a double portion of the prophetic spirit that energizes you.” 2:10 Elijah replied, “That’s a difficult request! If you see me taken from you, may it be so, but if you don’t, it will not happen.” [NET] Remarkably, the Bible records 28 miracles done by Elisha and 14 done by Elijah.

 

Elisha knew enough that he needed an interface with God so he wouldn’t be afraid, and he wouldn’t be ridiculing the things of God that he heard from Him, and that he could embrace things the way God saw things. A natural man mind can’t do this. It needs help. That’s what “spirit upon” was.

But what’s the most pertinent here is that Jesus got it without measure, while people before him got it with measure. It was limited; not infinite.

5.)  please review point 4 about John 4:34.

4 hours ago, Mike said:

 I have no idea what double spirit means 

6.)obviously! Please review point 4.

4 hours ago, Mike said:

but I know God is saying something that’s getting my attention there, and I keep it in mind. why not triple? Why didn’t that prophet ask for triple? I don’t know but I do know we asked for double and that’s interesting to me.

The big question I get from all this is “Why is God using the idea of MEASURE here for spirit and spiritual things?    Measure denotes limits, finite bounds to size.  That’s what budgets are.  Our cars do not have infinite gas tanks or batteries to run on.  There is a FINITE MEASURE to how much gas or electricity we have to move our cars, and this applies to lots of other things.  This is the stuff budgets are made of if a wise eye is aware of such finite measures.

7.)please review point 4.

4 hours ago, Mike said:

Sometimes and in some places and some scriptures the “budget” seems a little tight.  If it states it in the scriptures then we know something, and we may not know at all, but at least we got SOME kind of info from the scripture.

8.)Knowing a great deal is not the same as being smart; intelligence is not information alone but also judgment, the manner in which information is collected and used....Carl Sagan …yes, we do get SOME kind of info from the scriptures – but HOW do we as modern readers interpret an ancient book – written over a span of some 1500 years by various writers holding various worldviews, in various cultures, using various languages?

Please review point 4 and try to draw some LOGICAL conclusions, and maybe learn more about the art and science of hermeneutics to better understand the ancient writers’ frame of mind instead of twisting stuff to fit into a template wierwille taught us.

4 hours ago, Mike said:

Paul was being hassled by people a lot, and he prayed (with believing I’d think) for God to open His door to infinite resources and fix this hindering situation.   I was stunned to read in my early twenties that God had this answer to Paul’s prayers for deliverance:

2 Corinthians 12:9 NIV
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”. Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.

There seems to be a sense of glory in just squeaking by with a finite measure… or budget.

This verse STILL gives me cause to pause, and think a little about the things going on behind the scenes spiritually with Jesus and the good angels, doing whatever they do.  The verse tells me here it was a tight budget time for Paul at that time… unlike other times where Paul was on top of things, like in jail and singing in a friendly earthquake.

Like that verse on Paul’s thorn in the flesh, this one in Garden of Gethsemane says to me that even for Jesus who had spirit without measure, there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.”  Look how explicit this scene is here:

Mark 14:35,36
Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him.  “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

Giving a measure indicates a turning away from the possibility of infinite.

Giving a measure indicates a budget if it includes a wise handler of the finite commodity. 

4 hours ago, Mike said:

A budget means a wise handling of a finite measure.

9.) Hermeneutics is a wise handling of Scripture and other thought provoking texts…it’s the theory and methodology of interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, as well as philosophical texts. Hermeneutics is more than interpretative principles or methods used when immediate comprehension fails and includes the art of understanding and communication.

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

132.  It’s a plagiarized class re worked 3 times.

It’s a perfect representation of a dog returning to its own vomit.  My dogs will even drag in frozen poop to eat inside on the furniture.  

Plaffy is the perfect poopsicle.  But in my house the dogs have to eat it in the yard but can’t bring it inside.  Poopsicles don’t melt well on carpeting.

Good point

And there’s the whole digestive cycle too - your dawgz will be known for passing of the poop-triarch …a unique dis-stink-shun as doo-ers of the turd and not eaters only…Awgie dawggie my Engwish  is turdful!

and please try to be more tolerant in your home since we’re supposed to be ASPCA good to the household. (sorry that one was a bit of a stretch… but i had them rolling in the aisles when I was a standup comic…actually it wasn’t that funny  - but I learned this trick at a Pentecostal revival - I’d whisper to someone in the front row “rollover” and give them a little milk-bone if they did it.) 

16 minutes ago, Mike said:

Yes, we've been all over the map. That is with exploratory expeditions do.

Exploratory = involving exploration or investigation; similar = fact-finding; probing; searching; analytic.

Expedition = a journey or voyage undertaken by a group of people with a particular purpose, especially that of exploration, scientific research. 

But  in that same starter post  you said you wanted to get into brainstorming = group discussion to produce ideas or solve problems. 

I think you should stick with brainstorming – that would be intellectually honest – because it doesn’t look like you’re conducting a fact-finding mission to find Scripture evidence…I mean you have not shown any so far…but it does appear you want help brainstorming to prove that God has a budget, there's double doors and that has something to do with the scarcity of miracles…don’t think I can help you much there – it’s like you asking me to help you prove the law of believing is real…I won't because just don’t believe in your mission...remember this great line - I have a jack but I'm not going to help you.

Getting back to the topic

What do you all think of wierwille’s explanation of Luke 23:43 ?

 I’ve copied a few different versions and pasted below…it seems to me Jesus is reassuring the repentant criminal that he would be in paradise with Jesus that very day:

New International Version
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
English Standard Version
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” 

King James Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. 

New American Standard Bible
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” 

Amplified Bible
Jesus said to him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Holman Christian Standard Bible
And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.”

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

No, it it was an admission that I needed to state better detail for the idea than Post #1 has.

maybe while you're at it you can provide evidence for the rest of your theory in your starter post. I'm old and a little slow on the uptake - so excuse me for that - and it just might be me - but it seems to me like you've gone all over the map and even off-the-map but you still haven't proved that God has a budget, there's double doors and that has something to do with the scarcity of miracles. 

On 2/27/2023 at 9:12 PM, Mike said:

God’s Budget and Double Doors

On the Scarcity of Miracles

 

Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?

 

 

I saw lots of signs and wonders in the early 1970s, some that benefitted me and some benefitting others, and maybe even a miracle or two.  This was on Long Island, just across a bridge from the Groovy Christians at Rye, NY.  The Word was hot then, and BOTH Jesus Christ and the class were talked up bigtime.  It was a genuine work of God.  The archives here have a couple of posts from Ralph D verifying this, as he too was in the middle of it all. This is undeniable.

 

 

But it is equally undeniable that NOT as many mighty signs, miracles, and wonders were being seen as the Seventies ended. Not coincidentally, by 1982 the Corps had taken over and was supervising most field work. In my most recent theory on this, the over-supervising and stifling influence of the Corps is characterizes lots of how TWI-1 phased out and TWI-2 phased in.

 

 

I think we have all agreed here, that since 1986, the higher up in leadership that you look, the less likelihood there is of seeing any signs, miracles, and wonders coming from their hands.

 

 

Most of what power I saw in the Seventies was associated with regular believers witnessing, running classes, under-shepherding new people, and splitting twigs.  That activity was hotter than hot on Long Island then, but when I moved to HQ in 1976 the local movement of the Word in New Knoxville was down to absolute zero. That was one of the reasons I left there two years later. I can hardly imagine the insularity and passage of 4 decades has only made that worse for the long-term residents at HQ. 

 

 

Because I had specialized in witnessing back on Long Island, I was able to sign up two locals in the New Knoxville area, and it was considered phenomenal by some on staff.  I had to send my sign-ups to Sidney, though, for fellowship and under-shepherding. Things were pretty dead in town, spiritually.

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

But there is much more to the scarcity of miracles that I want to talk about here, than the ineptness of TWI.  I sense the scarcity of miracles is universal, almost regardless of people, and as if it were a law of some sort, with few exceptions.

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

I have told this story once, but it bears repeating here.

 

 

Back in the day, on Long Island we had a wonderful new brother added to our Branch one day, pseudo-named George.  He was a super nice guy, always fun and laughing, and a real joy to be around.  He was meek and joined in on witnessing very well.  He was not all messed up and straining to be positive and renew his mind; he HAD it!  He seemed to be pretty well adjusted BEFORE taking the class, and just jumped in right away as a renewed mind believer.  I wish I had stayed there longer to get to know him better, and regret that I’ve been unable to find him.

 

 

George had one good arm and his other was completely withered from birth.  A tiny outline of a baby’s hand with some fingers could be seen protruding a tiny bit from his shoulder. He could hide it easily with a shirt, but in the Summertime we could often plainly see it.  He didn’t try to hide it, and seemed to be quite skilled at living without the arm.  He was active and got around well; an unforgettable guy.

 

 

When we would run a PFAL class, just EVERYONE held their breath during the part about the man with the withered hand. We all wanted to see George miraculously healed.  I think he went WoW or maybe in the Corps, but I’m not sure. 

 

 

But I do know for sure, that if George had ever gotten that new arm build by a miracle, I would CERTAINLY have heard about it from all my old Long Island friends.  Word about George would have traveled fast, fast, fast.  I think there are still a dozen of us still alive and friends on Facebook.

 

 

We did not see any such spectacular miracles. Maybe there were some, but word seemed to not get around much about them if they did happen.

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

I have thought long and hard about this scarcity of miracles.

 

 

One hunch is that we grads have not yet really graduated to that level yet.

 

 

But that is ONLY PART of my thinking.
The scarcity of miracles is universal, and not just in the failed TWI. 

 

 

So, the question then becomes, why haven’t ANY groups of Christians in modern times gotten the same results that we see in Acts of the Apostles?

 

 

But then, looking closer at Acts, we can see the abundance of miracles there was in spurts (like Long Island?), and that most of the time, they too experienced the same scarcity of miracles.  We do see Paul sprung from jail once by a miraculous earthquake, and then some fast acting on revelation by Paul.  But then how many times later was Paul NOT sprung from jail?  And then, how many of the Apostles eventually died? All of them died. Miracles were rare for them too.

 

 

I am thinking out loud here.  Still working on all this.

 

 

At the very end of this thinking, I keep running into the very odd idea that God has limited Himself to a “budget” on miracles SO THAT the devil can be limited to the same a budget on producing lying signs, miracles, and wonders. 

 

 

I have also noticed that many here are very much against the idea of God having any limitations. This thread is an opportunity for possibly thinking that through in more detail.

 

 

*/*/*/*

 

 

God uses angels to do a lot of things. There is an interesting account in the OT about this in the Book of Daniel, where Daniel was praying for some help with something, and nothing happens for a long time, like weeks. Suddenly one day an angel shows up, and says something like “I’m here to help. Sorry I’m so late. I was detained for weeks struggling with some ‘big guy’ out there.”

 

 

 

That was my Super Abbreviated Version; below is the NIV:

 

 

 

 

 

*/*/*/*

Daniel Chapter 10

 

 

In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.

 

 

At that time I, Daniel, mourned for three weeks.  I ate no choice food; no meat or wine touched my lips; and I used no lotions at all until the three weeks were over.

 

 

On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

 

 

I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.

 

 

A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.

 

 

Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”

 

 

While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak.  How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.”

 

 

Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. “Do not be afraid, you who are highly esteemed,” he said. “Peace! Be strong now; be strong.”

 

 

When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength.”

 

 

So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.”

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

Now try not to be distracted by the great example of the Great Principle that is laid out in the open here in Daniel 10, and PLEASE focus on the red fonts that show how God was limited. God’s angels were obviously limited in that chapter, and they struggled to prevail. It looks like they were on a budget that just barely worked.

 

 

From this and many other scriptures (forthcoming), I get the impression that, though God has infinite power, He has limited His use of His power for various reasons, and must work within His own constructed framework. 

 

 

I get the impression He limits Himself to some kind of “Intervention Budget” SO THAT He can limit the devil to the same budget. 

 

 

WHY it works this way I do not know.

 

 

It just seems to be implied to be the case in the scriptures.  I think this maybe is what VPW was often referring to when he said the God did things “legally” and not just willy-nilly.  I will be soon bringing out more scriptures that gave me this hunch many years ago. 

 

 

Never once have I heard VPW or anyone else in the ministry, or out of the ministry, bring up an idea like this.  I have no idea where I got it from, but it just looks that way when I read the Bible. I think the Book of Job and it’s courtroom scenes may have first planted this idea. Also in that courtroom we see the devil being limited to not killing Job. Also, the many times God’s people in the Bible just barely got delivered at the last minute suggested a budget to me.

 

 

The spiritual battles in the OT are often ones of God just barely winning, but often with an abundance of cleverness and foresight.  God knew beforehand how big to set His budget so that He could rescue the broken world from the devil. God’s budget is tight; tight enough to make it impossible for the adversary to rule HIS OWN WORLD very efficiently.  Not knowing the future, the adversary wastes his budget on failed attempts to thwart God.

 

 

*/*/*/*

 

 

Now another feature of this theory or hunch of mine is that the budget not only applies to the “amount” of an intervention from the spiritual to the physical, it ALSO implies a TIME BUDGET as well. 

Again, from a bunch of scriptures (forthcoming) I have seen situations in the Scriptures that I describe as “Double Doors.”  That mean when God opens the door between the spiritual and physical for an intervention, He must open a corresponding door to the adversary as well.  Otherwise the doors are shut tight, like the way we see an angel in Genesis that blocks and guards Eden and the Tree of Live. The doors open at just the right time, and then soon shut.

 

 

I first noted this “Double Door” phenomenon in the Road to Damascus incident when Paul was converted. God opened the door for Paul to see Jesus, but the devil pounces in through that same set of doors to try and kill Paul.  Like the limitations put on him in the Book of Job, the devil is only successful in blinding Paul. This blinding is against God’s will, but the door was then shut, so God directed Paul and Ananias to get together for healing later.

 

 

I thought I’d submit this hunch of mine for review here, and brainstorming a little outside the usual confines of issues in About the Way.  I am sure many tangential topics will be included.

 

32 minutes ago, Mike said:

No! 
I insist on the right to move the goalposts! 
LoL.  I didn't even read the rest of your post yet.

This is not a debate to me, where someone wins and someone loses.  I am exploring an idea, and you are not going to tell me how to do it or not do it.

The reason I am doing what you call "moving the goalposts" is because I am trying to refine the idea under discussion.  If my initial statement did not adequately communicate my idea, then please now drop your debate mode approach, and adopt the patch I have just suggested.

I reject your rejection of my refining the goalposts in an intellect inquiry.  I am exploring an idea, and I just made it more clear to you what that idea was in my last post, so please go back with this in mind and re-read, sans the debate mode in your brain busy churning as your re-read.

I hope the rest of you post doesn't hang on it's opening, because I negated the opening in my mind and the way I will proceed.

I'll probably skim read the rest of your post to see if there's anything as interesting as your last long post on Job.   But first I wan to see if there are others posting here below who want to tell me how to explore my idea.

 

To insist on moving the goalposts seems to be an admission the idea was silly in the first place.

don’t get your hopes up on the rest of my post - you probably won’t like it either…but in my defense nine tenths of my post was just quoting Job 38 to 41…the first ten or so short paragraphs at the beginning were just introductory remarks to show Scripture evidence that your theory was untenable.

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

Well, he certainly imposes limitations on the devil. Remember the covenant with Noah that God would never again flood the earth? Theres the tower of Babel where the languages were confounded. Also we see in Peter that the current state of affairs is being preserved from utter destruction for the day of judgement as well as the tribulation will be shortened or all flesh would be destroyed. So, yes God limites the devil from utterly destroying his creation again. Im sure satan is limited in other ways we arent even aware of due to his fallen state and loss of "heavenly" authority. But I don't believe its as you say, nothing personal, I just tend to stick with whats written. What I see written is God is saving his creation and will seperate the wheat and tares and his utter, absolute, sovereingty is what has held all of this together from utter destruction. Does that equal a budget? Nah...satan will fill his sins to the fullest and will be recompensed according to his works.

God imposing limitations is certainly one option.  That is evident in some of the imagery in Job 38 to 41…But there also could be limitations intrinsic to the thing or being itself.

A state’s Department of Transportation might post a speed limit sign of 70 mph on the freeway. Many legal street vehicles are capable of greater speeds than that. If they get caught doing so by a state trooper there are usually consequences – a speeding ticket / day in court, etc...in a related story there was a believer in our branch who got around on a dinky moped - the top speed on those is 30 mph. He'd show up at functions all dusty and disheveled saying he took the freeway there - most of the trip was on the shoulder of the freeway...He never got a speeding ticket that's for sure...did get a few warnings to stay off freeways because he couldn't keep up with traffic.   ah the more abundant life...gotta love it!

Now let’s take a look at a silly hypothetical. Bicyclists unite to create their own city where only non-motorized bicycles are allowed on the road. They even have freeways. Throwing caution to the wind they decide to make speed limits well beyond the capability of bicyclists (no metahumans in this goofball scenario ) which means they don’t need a police department to enforce the speed limits. Knowing that the land speed record for a bicycle is held by Bruce Bursford, who pedaled to an astonishing 208 mph in August, 1995 - he was sitting on a specially designed, stationary bike with helium-filled tires and a two-foot chain ring, set on rollers. [ What Is the Highest Speed Ever Recorded on a Bicycle? - SportsRec ] – it is determined that the speed limit on freeways is to be 300 mph…until the next big bicycle upgrade comes along – then the city officials might have to raise the speed limit. 

I think in a similar way created beings have built-in limitations. No being is more powerful than God Almighty. It’s not that God has to actively do something to restrict or retrain a beings activity. It’s that the particular being can only do so much.

6 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Its interesting, and perhaps Im a bit idealistic or influenced by too many kung fu movies, but isn't the hallmark of a capable teacher is that the student eventuall surpasses the teacher?

yes - and there's probably a quote by someone along those lines.

35 minutes ago, Rocky said:

What you actually seem to be doing is constructing MYTH. There is no rational or biblical basis for either question as I see it. I commend your imagination but not your communications skills or biblical understanding or rational analysis skills, or even your self-awareness.

The only basis for what you propose is what you conjure between your ears. 

If you (or any other reader on this thread were to) want to understand the history and role of MYTH over the course of humankind's dominion over the earth, I recommend A Short History of Myth by Karen Armstrong.

Ms Armstrong is a former Catholic nun and writes exquisitely about human understanding of God (and gods) and spiritual ideas through the millennia.

In a prologue to A Short History..., "Myths are universal and timeless stories that reflect and shape our lives--they explore our desires, our fears, our longings, and provide narratives that remind us what it means to be human."

Myth predates and co-exists with Hebrew, Islam, and Christian understanding of life. My life experience and travels (abroad) exposed me to Catholic traditions which were adopted by various local communities and incorporated into church practice by Catholic practitioners.

 

 

Great recommendation Rocky !

Another one of her books that is fascinating for anyone who gets into philosophy of religion is The Case for God by Karen Armstrong . It has been some of the inspiration behind a few of my posts on this thread and a few others with similar themes. 

5 hours ago, Mike said:

 

What is silly would be asking "Is God is limited by a budget?"

You are mistaken if you think that is what I am asking here.
Or maybe you are deliberately trying to distort my question here?

I am NOT asking "Is God is limited by a budget?" because that would mean there is something bigger than God that imposes the budget.

1.My opening quote is from YOUR starter post for this thread – so quit trying to move the goalposts!

here are a few other excerpts from  Mike’s starter post Monday February 27th, 2023, 9:12 PM

God’s Budget and Double Doors

On the Scarcity of Miracles…

Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?...

…At the very end of this thinking, I keep running into the very odd idea that God has limited Himself to a “budget” on miracles SO THAT the devil can be limited to the same a budget on producing lying signs, miracles, and wonders…

…I thought I’d submit this hunch of mine for review here, and brainstorming a little outside the usual confines of issues in About the Way.  I am sure many tangential topics will be included.

End of excerpts from Mike’s starter post

~ ~ ~ ~

5 hours ago, Mike said:

*/*/*

What I am asking is "Does God impose a budget on the devil?"  and then I go on with further detail to include within my budget question my guess that the method God uses is a universal budgetary one.   

 

2.budget = as a noun - an estimate of income and expenditure for a set period of time; as a verb - allow or provide a particular amount of money in a budget.

We can guess till the cows jump over the collaterals. If you want to hazard a plausible guess within the confines of PFAL, how about God put a cap on how much the devil could believe in the law of believing.

5 hours ago, Mike said:

 asking if the method He uses in setting up His moral order here, is to impose a general budgetary limitation on ALL spiritual interactions upon the physical realm.  

This method really does limit the devil much more than God, because in His foreknowledge God makes this budget just the right size for Him to get His work done, and deny the devil the same.   This is a subtle point you may be missing.  

God is not limited by His budget; He squeaks by just right and just in time every time.  It is the devil who miscalculates his budget and loses when confronting God and His people who are walking with Him.

3.you bore me with your redefinitions, slippery slopes, and false analogies. Face up to the fact this post represents your typical strategy of backpedaling (recanting incognito) and waffling in an attempt to get the square peg to fit in the round hole. One suggestion: try using belt sander on peg or ream out the hole to make it bigger.

5 hours ago, Mike said:

*/*/*

I really liked your analysis of Job, and made a copy of it.  I haven’t read all of it yet, but what caught my eye was the dichotomy of God’s Physical Order being beyond us, as well as His Moral Order.   

4.reread my post, paying special attention to the 6^th, 7^th, and 8^th paragraphs down from the top – and don’t forget to click on the hyperlinks in those paragraphs…what you should have realized is the complementary or corresponding relationship of the natural order and moral order – in other words it’s not a dichotomy – a contrast – but rather one reveals stuff about the other – and both harmonize to inform us about God’s attributes and character.

Mike said: "what caught my eye was the dichotomy of God’s Physical Order being beyond us, as well as His Moral Order"

If God's natural order and moral order is beyond us - then Paul's argument in Romans 1 saying fallen humankind are without excuse would not make sense! It is precisely because all that is well within humankind's ability to mentally grasp His divine order.

~ ~ ~ ~

Here for your convenience is what I said:

“Read through these chapters and see how God used Job’s ignorance of the natural order of the world - the organization and coordination of systems comprising the physical universe and its proper functioning – to reveal God’s moral order.

 It seems to me God is saying Job, if you do not understand the workings of the physical universe which I’ve created how can you possibly understand My mind and character?  I find a similar theme in Romans 1 , Paul talks about God revealing His divine nature and personal qualities through the created world…and perhaps echoing a reference to Job’s ignorance, Romans 1 implies creation’s testimony has been distorted by the fall of humankind.”

End of quoting my Saturday 4/15/2023 11:45 PM post

5 hours ago, Mike said:

I also think it is a little ironic how you reject my budget idea, that it may be a tiny glimpse into God’s Moral Order.   You  criticize my idea as one having understanding of the genuine Moral Order of God, and mine is counterfeit by your authoritative comparison.

I am asking if the scriptures hint to us some of God’s moral order as a budgetary thing.

5. I reject your budget idea because there’s no scriptural basis for it. Just because YOU think your silly theory gives you a glimpse into God’s Moral Order does not make it so.

So, to answer your question do the scriptures hint to us some of God’s moral order as a budgetary thing? The answer is NO.

5 hours ago, Mike said:

I think others have tried to explain this same glimpse as being like God sense of being “fair” to the devil in a legal sense.   At best, both my budget idea and the legal fairness idea are only tiny glimpses we have been given, as to why we live in a world that is pretty much run by the devil right now, but soon “…Thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.”

6.It might help if you could cite other sources (providing hyperlinks or at least specifics, documentation where I could see you’re not making this up   ) who have tried to explain this supposed glimpse of God being “fair” to the devil in a legal sense.

 You claim your budget idea and the legal fairness idea are only tiny glimpses we have been given – so again I ask WHERE have these glimpses been given?

Feel free to reiterate your mischaracterization of biblical narratives (recalling your mishmash of Job 1 & 2), which was false and misleading to begin with – and please stay on point if you want to argue over the culturalisms in Job 1 & 2 – because reinterpreting ancient narratives via one’s modern myopic point of view is absurd.

On 10/20/2022 at 9:17 AM, T-Bone said:

44 Tells students they can’t go beyond what they’re taught

Did wierwille believe that? He was a prolific plagiarist. Maybe as a thief he could at least steal what others taught.

What was the motivation behind his 1942 Promise fabrication? Was that a way to validate his erroneous idea that people cannot go beyond what they’re taught unless God does the tutoring?

Perhaps wierwille was playing king of the hill – setting himself up as  the  most  authoritative person on God and the Bible. Whether he or others realized it or not, I think wierwille was into intellectual hobbling - a method of control to prevent others from straying from a cult mindset.

Imagine if educational systems had the maxim you can’t go beyond what you are taught. Would most students acquiesce to the idea? What would be the motivation to develop and improve one’s cognitive skills? Where would inventors, creators, artists, scientists, doctors, scholars, leaders and even inspiring teachers come from?

Quote:  Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?

The book of Job has been brought up on this thread. I am surprised that in the milieu of questions and God-trivializing guess work that little or no attention had been given to Job 38  , Job 39 ,   Job 40 ,  and Job 41 . These hyperlinks are to the NIV version on Bible Hub’s website. It’s a convenient website to see other versions, biblical lexicons, interlinear text, and commentaries.

What’s noteworthy about those chapters is that this is when Yahweh finally spoke to Job – and surprisingly He didn’t answer any of Job’s questions!

by the way, did you know The name Yahweh (yah-WEH) occurs more than 6,800 times in the Old Testament. It appears in every book but Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. As the sacred, personal name of Israel's God, it was eventually spoken aloud only by priests worshiping in the Jerusalem temple.

After the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70, the name was not pronounced. Adonay was substituted for Yahweh whenever it appeared in the biblical text. Because of this, the correct pronunciation of this name was eventually lost. English editions of the Bible usually translate Adonay as "Lord" and Yahweh as "LORD."

Yahweh is the name that is most closely linked to God's redeeming acts in the history of his chosen people. We know God because of what he has done. When you pray to Yahweh, remember that he is the same God who draws near to save you from the tyranny of sin just as he saved his people from tyrannical slavery in Egypt.

From: What "Yahweh" Means in the Bible - God's Name Explained (biblestudytools.com)

Read through these chapters and see how God used Job’s ignorance of the natural order of the world - the organization and coordination of systems comprising the physical universe and its proper functioning – to reveal God’s moral order.

It seems to me God is saying Job, if you do not understand the workings of the physical universe which I’ve created how can you possibly understand My mind and character?  I find a similar theme in Romans 1 , Paul talks about God revealing His divine nature and personal qualities through the created world…and perhaps echoing a reference to Job’s ignorance, Romans 1 implies creation’s testimony has been distorted by the fall of humankind.

There is no criterion higher than God Himself by which to judge. We are in no position to demote God Almighty! [during your free time     you might enjoy an interesting article: The Moral Order of the World Points to God | Christianity Today ] …and there’s this:  The natural order, therefore, would be defined as a created order in which man would be directed to an end or destiny that is strictly proportionate to his capacities, powers, and exigencies [needs] from: Natural Order | Encyclopedia.com

With all that in mind, as you read the following chapters of Job, you might consider how  silly  it is to ask Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?

Job 38 to 41

1Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

2“Who is this that obscures my plans

with words without knowledge?

3Brace yourself like a man;

I will question you,

and you shall answer me.

4“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?

Tell me, if you understand.

5Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!

Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6On what were its footings set,

or who laid its cornerstone—

7while the morning stars sang together

and all the angels ^a shouted for joy?

8“Who shut up the sea behind doors

when it burst forth from the womb,

9when I made the clouds its garment

and wrapped it in thick darkness,

10when I fixed limits for it

and set its doors and bars in place,

11when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;

here is where your proud waves halt’?

12“Have you ever given orders to the morning,

or shown the dawn its place,

13that it might take the earth by the edges

and shake the wicked out of it?

14The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;

its features stand out like those of a garment.

15The wicked are denied their light,

and their upraised arm is broken.

16“Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea

or walked in the recesses of the deep?

17Have the gates of death been shown to you?

Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?

18Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?

Tell me, if you know all this.

19“What is the way to the abode of light?

And where does darkness reside?

20Can you take them to their places?

Do you know the paths to their dwellings?

21Surely you know, for you were already born!

You have lived so many years!

22“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow

or seen the storehouses of the hail,

23which I reserve for times of trouble,

for days of war and battle?

24What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,

or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?

25Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,

and a path for the thunderstorm,

26to water a land where no one lives,

an uninhabited desert,

27to satisfy a desolate wasteland

and make it sprout with grass?

28Does the rain have a father?

Who fathers the drops of dew?

29From whose womb comes the ice?

Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens

30when the waters become hard as stone,

when the surface of the deep is frozen?

31“Can you bind the chains ^b of the Pleiades?

Can you loosen Orion’s belt?

32Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons ^c

or lead out the Bear ^d with its cubs?

33Do you know the laws of the heavens?

Can you set up God’s ^e dominion over the earth?

34“Can you raise your voice to the clouds

and cover yourself with a flood of water?

35Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?

Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?

36Who gives the ibis wisdom ^f

or gives the rooster understanding? ^g

37Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?

Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens

38when the dust becomes hard

and the clods of earth stick together?

39“Do you hunt the prey for the lioness

and satisfy the hunger of the lions

40when they crouch in their dens

or lie in wait in a thicket?

41Who provides food for the raven

when its young cry out to God

and wander about for lack of food?

Job 38 NIV

~ ~ ~ ~

1“Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?

Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?

2Do you count the months till they bear?

Do you know the time they give birth?

3They crouch down and bring forth their young;

their labor pains are ended.

4Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;

they leave and do not return.

5“Who let the wild donkey go free?

Who untied its ropes?

6I gave it the wasteland as its home,

the salt flats as its habitat.

7It laughs at the commotion in the town;

it does not hear a driver’s shout.

8It ranges the hills for its pasture

and searches for any green thing.

9“Will the wild ox consent to serve you?

Will it stay by your manger at night?

10Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?

Will it till the valleys behind you?

11Will you rely on it for its great strength?

Will you leave your heavy work to it?

12Can you trust it to haul in your grain

and bring it to your threshing floor?

13“The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,

though they cannot compare

with the wings and feathers of the stork.

14She lays her eggs on the ground

and lets them warm in the sand,

15unmindful that a foot may crush them,

that some wild animal may trample them.

16She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;

she cares not that her labor was in vain,

17for God did not endow her with wisdom

or give her a share of good sense.

18Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,

she laughs at horse and rider.

19“Do you give the horse its strength

or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?

20Do you make it leap like a locust,

striking terror with its proud snorting?

21It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,

and charges into the fray.

22It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;

it does not shy away from the sword.

23The quiver rattles against its side,

along with the flashing spear and lance.

24In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;

it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.

25At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’

It catches the scent of battle from afar,

the shout of commanders and the battle cry.

26“Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom

and spread its wings toward the south?

27Does the eagle soar at your command

and build its nest on high?

28It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;

a rocky crag is its stronghold.

29From there it looks for food;

its eyes detect it from afar.

30Its young ones feast on blood,

and where the slain are, there it is.”

Job 39 NIV

~ ~ ~ ~

1The Lord said to Job:

2“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?

Let him who accuses God answer him!”

3Then Job answered the Lord:

4“I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?

I put my hand over my mouth.

5I spoke once, but I have no answer—

twice, but I will say no more.”

6Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:

7“Brace yourself like a man;

I will question you,

and you shall answer me.

8“Would you discredit my justice?

Would you condemn me to justify yourself?

9Do you have an arm like God’s,

and can your voice thunder like his?

10Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,

and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.

11Unleash the fury of your wrath,

look at all who are proud and bring them low,

12look at all who are proud and humble them,

crush the wicked where they stand.

13Bury them all in the dust together;

shroud their faces in the grave.

14Then I myself will admit to you

that your own right hand can save you.

15“Look at Behemoth,

which I made along with you

and which feeds on grass like an ox.

16What strength it has in its loins,

what power in the muscles of its belly!

17Its tail sways like a cedar;

the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.

18Its bones are tubes of bronze,

its limbs like rods of iron.

19It ranks first among the works of God,

yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.

20The hills bring it their produce,

and all the wild animals play nearby.

21Under the lotus plants it lies,

hidden among the reeds in the marsh.

22The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;

the poplars by the stream surround it.

23A raging river does not alarm it;

it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.

24Can anyone capture it by the eyes,

or trap it and pierce its nose?

Job 40 NIV

~ ~ ~ ~

1“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook

or tie down its tongue with a rope?

2Can you put a cord through its nose

or pierce its jaw with a hook?

3Will it keep begging you for mercy?

Will it speak to you with gentle words?

4Will it make an agreement with you

for you to take it as your slave for life?

5Can you make a pet of it like a bird

or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?

6Will traders barter for it?

Will they divide it up among the merchants?

7Can you fill its hide with harpoons

or its head with fishing spears?

8If you lay a hand on it,

you will remember the struggle and never do it again!

9Any hope of subduing it is false;

the mere sight of it is overpowering.

10No one is fierce enough to rouse it.

Who then is able to stand against me?

11Who has a claim against me that I must pay?

Everything under heaven belongs to me.

12“I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,

its strength and its graceful form.

13Who can strip off its outer coat?

Who can penetrate its double coat of armor ^a ?

14Who dares open the doors of its mouth,

ringed about with fearsome teeth?

15Its back has ^b rows of shields

tightly sealed together;

16each is so close to the next

that no air can pass between.

17They are joined fast to one another;

they cling together and cannot be parted.

18Its snorting throws out flashes of light;

its eyes are like the rays of dawn.

19Flames stream from its mouth;

sparks of fire shoot out.

20Smoke pours from its nostrils

as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.

21Its breath sets coals ablaze,

and flames dart from its mouth.

22Strength resides in its neck;

dismay goes before it.

23The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;

they are firm and immovable.

24Its chest is hard as rock,

hard as a lower millstone.

25When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;

they retreat before its thrashing.

26The sword that reaches it has no effect,

nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.

27Iron it treats like straw

and bronze like rotten wood.

28Arrows do not make it flee;

slingstones are like chaff to it.

29A club seems to it but a piece of straw;

it laughs at the rattling of the lance.

30Its undersides are jagged potsherds,

leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

31It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron

and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.

32It leaves a glistening wake behind it;

one would think the deep had white hair.

33Nothing on earth is its equal—

a creature without fear.

34It looks down on all that are haughty;

it is king over all that are proud.”

Job 41 NIV

~ ~ ~ ~

That’s all for now, Grease Spotters

Love and peace!  

11 hours ago, Charity said:

to “set,” “appoint,” or “mark” intercessors who will remind the LORD of His promises for Jerusalem until Jesus returns.

3 hours ago, Twinky said:

Remind" God ???  

Tired of the inconvenience?

Having to remind God again and again?

Prevagen to the rescue!

For the forgetful deity in your life.

Trinitarians remember to give the Godhead 3-in-1 Prevagen with its triple-action formula.

And for you rank unbelievers who wonder if your luck will ever run out - there’s also Helluvagen - formulated for the absentminded god of this world in your life.

Patent pretending for Big Pharma Lharma Ding Dong.

Geez - this feels awkward.

I was just trying to be truthful in the inspiration for my silliness.

19 hours ago, T-Bone said:

i believe people who have more birthdays live longer than people who do not.

17 hours ago, cman said:

lol.... good one T-Bone

16 hours ago, T-Bone said:

That’s from an old Popeye cartoon - he always said some funny stuff under his breath like People who have more birthdays live longer. I dressed it up to fit with your post. 

12 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

WOW T-Bone. You sound like a genius. Amazing! Maybe we even know where are physical heads are. With the help of two hands and arms. Certainly we at least know who are spiritual Head is. He is currently seated at the right hand of God, his Father by birth. Jesus Christ!

Fyi Mark, here’s the real geniuses

Popeye - Wikipedia

Popeye the Sailor Man is a fictional cartoon character created by Elzie Crisler Segar. The character first appeared on January 17, 1929, in the daily King Features comic strip Thimble Theatre. The strip was in its tenth year when Popeye made his debut, but the one-eyed sailor quickly became the lead character, and Thimble Theatre became one of King Features' most popular properties during the 1930s. After Segar died in 1938, Thimble Theatre was continued by several writers and artists, most notably Segar's assistant Bud Sagendorf. It was formally renamed Popeye. The strip continues to appear in first-run instalments on Sundays, written and drawn by R.K. Milholland. The daily strips are reprints of old Sagendorf stories.  

and that's the truth - I yam what I yam, I'm T-Bone the plagiarizing man 

There’s nothing quite so damaging as the human desire to be right.

From:  Stop Doing That $hi+ by Gary John Bishop

1 hour ago, Charity said:

IHOP KC is big on God's zeal for Zion and David is mentioned a lot in their scriptures about song and worship.  I had to look Zion up because I know zilch about it.

The name Zion is often used to describe a place appointed by the Lord where his followers can live and serve God. Scripture refers to Zion as the “City of Holiness” and a “city of refuge” where the Lord protects his people from the evils in the world.

https://www.zionponderosa.com/blog/2014/06/the-hidden-meaning-behind-the-zion-name/

Zion, in the Old Testament, the easternmost of the two hills of ancient Jerusalem. It was the site of the Jebusite city captured by David, king of Israel and Judah, in the 10th century bc (2 Samuel 5:6–9) and established by him as his royal capital.   (Encyclopedia Britannica)

Interesting reference to Zion National Park and the Mormons.

When 9/11 happened, my wife and I were vacationing in Big Sur of California. Since all airports were shut down, we decided to drive the rental vehicle all the way back home to Texas. I have a national park pass so we drove through Zion National Park – absolutely gorgeous – breathtaking!

Speaking of TWI, Bickle, and the Mormons, I think the biggest reason why I am so hesitant to give credence on some of their interpretations of the Bible is from my own experience with TWI / wierwille – where the authority and trustworthiness of the founder relies heavily on some personal  theophany (which those 3 groups rely on). I’ve been burned. So, I’m now of the opinion if someone can’t argue their theological case from just Scripture – then I’m not interested in considering their points because I doubt the impetus behind it.

~ ~ ~ ~

As a side note: this goes along the same lines of when I get in discussions about miracles, manifestations, personal experiences of phenomena. Some folks get the idea that when I talk about wierwille’s misinterpreting what the Bible teaches about that stuff, that I am saying none of that stuff can happen today. That’s not my position.

My stance is to ignore the drivel of an incompetent, pathological liar, drunkard, plagiarist, delusional, megalomaniac like wierwille and the god made in his image. wierwille’s definitions and how-to on holy spirit stuff is pretentious and unbiblical. The lack of divine wisdom, power, and healing in the ministry of a faker who asserted the holy spirit was the field god called him to, should give one pause.

I love Charity’s thread on how God works in us, because folks didn’t get into comparisons or try to outdo each other. I take the biblical approach – the way Scripture speaks to manifestations, gifts, spiritual abilities and such is that the person ALREADY KNOWS they HAVE SOMETHING(S)   - so they don’t need some stupid class on them - it’s really a matter of cheerfully serving others with what you have. I think folks that really do have something are not prone to go around bragging about it – they’re too busy being driven – self-motivated – to serve in that particular capacity - it’s like they actually enjoy doing that stuff. 

59 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

I disagree. There is no rapture, or rapturo in latin as rapture is transliterated from. It is misapplied from many angles and escapism is just on angle. But scripture plainly says that we will meet the Lord in the air at the last trump. Theology confuses the events to no end, and it is a mystery within God's great mystery. Behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed. Anywho...lemme get outta here befor I derail this thread..

https://textusreceptusbibles.com/Parallel/53002001/MAT/GNV/KJV1611

Thanks for that textusreceptusbibles hyperlink – really cool!

Yeah, I hear you on theology confusing stuff – and I’m not 100 percent sold on either yet – how’s that for waffling. 

If you haven’t checked out those two Heiser links I posted earlier, I recommend you give them a chance. It got me to rethink how I understood familiar passages like 2 Thessalonians 2 NIV . Some of the descriptions have striking similarities to OT stuff like Isaiah 14 NIV , Ezekiel 28 NIV and Daniel 12 NIV , and the book of Revelation.

Simple obvious statements like meet the Lord in the air or prince of the power of the air , we tend to take literally to the exclusion of referencing the spiritual realm.- just another aspect of the same event...just my opinion...

this is all tentative in my mind right now...and granted some of the pieces of the interpretive puzzle could fit either way (split events or same event). I see no issue with practical consequences either way unless one goes overboard like Charity and I mentioning the extremes of TWI and Bickle.

1 hour ago, Charity said:

Wierwille, the founder of twi, "heard from God", focused on one goal (the rightly divided word over the world), pushed the abundant life to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his classes and leadership programs. 

Bickle, the founder of IHOP-KC "heard from God," focused on one goal (bringing about the end times), pushed worship and prayer to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his 24/7 prayer room, classes and internship program. 

Both have people who remain totally committed to the cult's beliefs.  Both have people who were hurt and left with some/many needing a long time to heal emotionally and spiritually.  For this latter group, ex-followers from both cults have online support groups to help each other with the healing and to warn others of the harmful aspects of their cults. 

I took what I learned about IHOP very personally because of my own experience and the experiences of others in twi.  And maybe because it's only been 5 months since beginning to deal with all things twi, I'm having such a hard time dealing with all things IHOP as it is connected to my involvement in a church that is not like IHOP in their practices but supports Bickle's doctrine all the same.  After going through the confusing "should I stay or should I go" scenario for the past couple of weeks, I'm coming to realize that leaving is "the way, the truth and the life" choice to make (gotta love my use of quotation marks !)  

 

wow! 

I love how you succinctly described the issues.

"Once a teacher always a teacher" 

On 4/13/2023 at 1:18 PM, T-Bone said:

Great post, Charity !!!!

I learn so much from reading about how others navigate this unusual journey through often treacherous waters.

End times is a toughie – and on stuff like that I consider all options on the table until I find definitive proof something is untenable…this year I’ve been checking out some of the late Dr. Heiser’s stuff  and currently I’m leaning more towards the idea that “the rapture” is a misunderstanding of certain Scriptures that may be addressing the same concept presented in the book of Revelation…here’s a couple of hyperlinks as food for thought:

Eschatology Series by Dr. Michael Heiser

Prophecy and Eschatology: the Rapture by Dr. Michael Heiser

 

Even if "the rapture" doctrine is correct - TWI misused it to encourage people to take no thought about the future - because it could happen any second - with addendum thoughts like since we're going to heaven anyway you can do whatever you want now - one can interpret that anyway you want - but for those who have deadened consciences it could mean they can live like the devil! 

 

I like to think of myself as tech support for and with the sinners and saints…or TSFAWTSAS for short.   That’s not to say I know a lot – just that I figured out how a few things work – and so have others – and using the fundamentalist’s dichotomy    of sinners and saints, I learn from others no matter their belief system and like to share what I’ve learned…it’s a whole give-and-take thing.

 

On 4/13/2023 at 3:43 PM, Charity said:

Hi T-Bone,

Here's one website about Bickle's doctrine about the end times to compare with with you've learned so far.  (You might have to copy and paste if you can't click on it to open.)

https://www.equip.org/articles/forerunner-eschatology/

As a TSFAWTSAS, have you come across a "preacher" who has devised an organization of programs, practices and basic principles of how young Christians are to behave and prepare for the end times they are helping to usher in (using scriptures from OT and Revelation)? 

 

On 4/13/2023 at 5:01 PM, T-Bone said:

 

 

Hi Charity, to answer your question - yes I have  - explanation to follow .

Thanks for the hyperlink – I have copied that to a laptop file for further analysis sometime in the near future – I have several light and heavy reading and studying projects going on right now…However, I did copy and paste some excerpts below – it’s in my standard bold blue font to indicate it’s copied from the noted source…rather than offering a point-by-point critique I chose to designate dubious sections in bold red font. Grease Spotters can draw their own conclusions from this article.

I will leave you all with two thoughts:

1.       Check out the 2 links I gave in previous post:

eschatology discussion by Dr. Heiser 

prophecy and eschatology: the rapture by Dr. Heiser

and when I say check them out – it might take a little work  (depending on how much one has bought into wierwille’s teachings like 4 crucified, the Holy Spirit/holy spirit, 6 cocks-a-crowing   where he would join different passages together that shouldn’t be – or split the same account into separate events – you’ll see what I mean about being “a joiner” or a “splitter” once you listen to Heiser’s prophecy + eschatology: rapture You Tube.).

2.       In light of the title of this thread – I’m sure a lot of cult-survivors who read this article will see similarities of IHOP with TWI as far as generating a spiritual elitism attitude, manipulative jargon, and ‘self-assuming greatness’.

 ~ ~ ~ ~

Excerpts from the Christian Research Institute hyperlink:

 …Today, the primary interpretative systems of biblical eschatology are known as premillennialism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism,9 and within these distinct systems there are varying perspectives. Bickle identifies his end-time teaching as an exclusive brand of premillennialism that he calls “apostolic premillennialism.”

 Apostolic Premillennialism

 Bickle distinguishes his apostolic premillennialism from dispensational premillennialism by rejecting a pretribulation rapture for a conquering church that prays and ministers through Revelation’s Great Tribulation, resulting in the salvation of Israel and the largest mission harvest in history. Otherwise, Bickle’s apostolic premillennialism differs little from dispensational premillennialism and incorporates many of the core interpretative and chronological scenarios popularized by Hal Lindsey. These include, for example, a literalist hermeneutic of the Book of Revelation, separate redemptive plans for Israel and the church, a personal Antichrist leading a revived Roman empire and one-world government, a rebuilt Jerusalem temple and reinstituted sacrificial system, the mark of the beast as a microchip implanted in the hand or forehead, a seven-year Great Tribulation, and the earthly millennial reign of Jesus following His second coming.

 

Bickle uses the adjective “apostolic” in describing his premillennialism in an effort to emphasize the kind of church he is laboring to build. He believes he is preparing an army of Christians who will triumph during the soon-coming crisis of the Antichrist’s global rule and the Great Tribulation.

He preaches a self-identified apostolic Christianity characterized by intimacy with Jesus as bridegroom, wholehearted fulfillment of the Great Commandment, self-denial holiness, Sermon-on-the-Mount living, Holy Spirit empowerment, justice, fasting, prayer, and worship. Whereas Bickle has taught many of these worthy topics since the 1980s, my primary concern is that in the last couple of years he has begun to reteach them, wrapping them tightly in his exclusive end-time teaching and his distinct interpretation of the Book of Revelation.

 Forerunner Eschatology 

You don’t have to be around the IHOP movement very long before you are exposed to a large glossary of insider terms and phrases, such as wilderness lifestyle, friend of the Bridegroom, Daniel anointing, eating the scroll, fasted lifestyle, burning and shining lamps, wholehearted lovers, zones of glory, corridor of glory, and many more that could be added.18

 

A cautionary red light should go on whenever we discover any church or Christian movement creating, and extensively using, their own exclusive language. The habitual use of insider language by a Christian movement can develop a we-are-different culture vis-a-vis the greater church. Soon a person’s use of prescribed terms and phrases is the way to determine whether they are true “insiders.” It can also easily create a “us” and “them” attitude within the Body of Christ. Many Christians living within such a cloistered culture can often find it difficult to leave or relate with other Christians, who do not speak “their language,” and who are frequently seen as spiritually lukewarm or compromising.

 

This becomes especially disconcerting when most inside a Christian movement begin to “talk alike” and parrot the same terms and phrases in their prayers and songs. This emerging reality at IHOP can be demonstrated by listening to the rapid prayer times in their “Prayer Room” or to the lyrics of the songs of IHOP’s quality worship musicians and singers.

 

More than all of IHOP’s inside terms, however, it is the word “forerunner” that is nearly ubiquitous. Among IHOP’s ministries, there is the Forerunner Christian Fellowship, Forerunner Music Academy, Forerunner School of Ministry, Forerunner Media School, Forerunner Evangelism, and Forerunner Books. It is safe to say that “forerunner” is the brand name of Bickle’s IHOP ministry. The use of the word “forerunner” is no accident. In fact, “forerunner eschatology” provides the greatest insight into the inner ethos and ministry thrust of Bickle and IHOP.

 

Although Bickle admits that Christians can’t predict the exact “day or hour” of Jesus’ second coming, he firmly claims that we can know the specific “season” of His return and boldly tells his followers that he believes the end of the world will unfold in this generation.

 

In light of Bickle’s conviction that we are living in the generation of Jesus’ second coming, he preaches that, as God raised up John the Baptist to be a forerunner preparing his generation for Jesus’ first coming, God is now raising up an elite end-time forerunner movement within the church. This movement will prepare this generation for the soon-coming Great Tribulation and Jesus’ return.

 

Bickle believes God has anointed him to call forth and train these end-time Christian forerunners. He is praying for thousands of last-days “forerunner Christians” to be raised up within this generation as special prophetic voices that will emerge in the spirit and power of Elijah and defeat the Antichrist’s soon-coming one-world government and religion by praying the “battle plan” of the Book of Revelation.

 The End-Time Forerunner Church 

Bickle teaches that Jesus’ second coming can be delayed or sped up according to the degree of the church’s spiritual maturity and readiness. He declares that most Christians are waiting passively for Jesus to return, when in actuality, Jesus is waiting for the church to prepare itself as the pure Bride of Christ and to ready itself to launch the last-day divine war to drive evil from the earth and cleanse it so that it can be filled with God’s love and glory.

 

Bickle does not simply preach that the church will go through the Great Tribulation sealed by God’s sovereign power, but that the end-time church will actually cause God’s judgments to be released on the earth through prophetic prayer. In other words, the end-time praying church will not simply be helpless martyrs during the Great Tribulation; it will victoriously establish justice on the earth by releasing the devastating Great Tribulation judgments on the Antichrist’s global evil empire.

 

At the end of December 2008, Bickle ratcheted up his end-time enthusiasm by passionately announcing that IHOP’s OneThing Conference would mark a major defining moment within the IHOP prayer movement, and would primarily center around his interpretation and implementation of the Book of Revelation.

Bickle declared that it was time for the prayer movement to realize that it will be the primary agent to transition human history to the age to come through “prayers of faith that not only heal, but also kill,” releasing the heavenly arsenals through intercession that will strike the Antichrist’s political, military, and economic power bases across the earth. The end times will reveal a “killing Jesus” who is covered with blood as He marches through Jordan to free Jerusalem while engaging the Antichrist’s army in physical combat.

 

Based on Bickle’s end-time teaching, Jesus’ second coming has preconditions. He teaches that Jesus will not return until the global church is crying out “Come, Lord Jesus” with a full understanding of her identity as the Bride of Christ. Jesus will only return when the church is functioning in the unity of the Spirit and is anointed in prayer to release the destructive end-time tribulation judgments.

 

Bickle envisions that the end-time forerunner church will be an advanced “apostolic” movement. They will experience “greater things” than the apostles themselves. They will function as the last day Moses who through prayer releases God’s plagues on the Antichrist, the end-time Pharaoh. Bickle emphasizes that during the end times, Moses’ miracles and the miracles of the Book of Acts will be combined and multiplied on a global level as the praying church looses God’s judgments on the earth. This is why Bickle calls the Book of Revelation the “End-Times Book of Acts,” meaning that the Book of Revelation reveals the acts of the Holy Spirit that will be demonstrated through the end-time praying church.

 

Bickle goes even further to add another eschatological interpretive twist to Matthew 16:18–19: “I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” He claims that Jesus’ statement refers to the end-time church’s possession of the keys of the kingdom through prayer that will drive hell off the planet during the Great Tribulation. The church will exercise binding and loosing end-time authority over God’s judgments assuring that the gates of hell—the Antichrist’s evil empire—will not prevail.31

Forerunner “Wilderness Lifestyle”

 Bickle engages in another eschatological twist of the Bible when he exhorts Christians to follow the representative example of John the Baptist and dedicate themselves to live a sacrificial “wilderness lifestyle” of fasting and prayer so that they can emerge one day as “forerunner voices” prior to Jesus’ second coming. Bickle claims that “on May 7, 1997, the Lord spoke to me about believing Him to raise up 10,000 forerunners who live in the spirit of John the Baptist as friends of the Bridegroom (Jn 3:29).”…

…The End-Time Prayer Movement

 

There is nothing more central to Bickle’s eschatology than his teaching concerning the end-time prayer and prophetic movement. Building on the 24/7 prayer example of the historic Moravians and the contemporary South Korean practice of fervent prayer and consecrated prayer mountains, IHOP is spreading a passion for intercessory prayer and worship throughout the church…

End of excerpts from Forerunner Eschatology: Mike Bickle's End-Time Teaching and the International House of Prayer - Christian Research Institute (equip.org)     (https://www.equip.org/articles/forerunner-eschatology/)

~ ~ ~ ~

Some random thoughts. I don't want to give anyone the idea I put Bickle in the same class as wierwille who was a harmful and controlling cult-leader. Some of Bickle's theology / theory / practices are suspect in my opinion - but that's due to differing point of view on my part. I know nothing of Bickle's personal behavior - and in such cases I give people a benefit of a doubt - assuming they practice what they preach - unlike wierwille the supreme hypocrite.

I would be remiss if I did not speak to the elephant in the room (rapture vs end times). I’ve already mentioned TWI’s misapplication of the rapture. It tended toward escapism. Avoiding reality and evading a commitment to the here and now.

On the other hand Bickle’s laser-like focus on end times kind of scares me because I get the sense him and his ‘spiritually elite troops’ are full of their own grandiosity. 

As I mentioned earlier, currently I’m leaning toward the rapture being a misunderstanding of the book of Revelation events - in other words, I believe rapture doctrine incorrectly splits the return of Christ into separate events.

So I give Bickle credit for focusing on end times. But I fault him on being egotistical about how much of a role the church has in it. From what little I know of book of Revelation, it’s more about God’s sovereignty.

This is just my opinion - I could be wrong.

That’s from an old Popeye cartoon - he always said some funny stuff under his breath like People who have more birthdays live longer. I dressed it up to fit with your post. 

Telling yourself the truth is rarely easy, but it’s a sure fire way to free yourself from your own subconscious self-sabotage trap. What makes self-reflection challenging is that you’re both the con artist and the one being conned.

From Stop Doing That ....  by Gary John Bishop

i believe people who have more birthdays live longer than people who do not.