T-Bone

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

 

Intriguing and salient points in both cases.

137. PFAL supplements Biblical authority

This item was referred to in the previous point - # 136 - PFAL students get accustomed to esoteric interpretations of the Bible -  mentioned in passing in the excerpts from Scripture Twisting by James W Sire . On pages 115ff of the same book the author continues:

The second strain in the esoteric tradition is not just to discern new spiritual meanings to old scriptural texts but to supplement the Bible with new revelation or to add authorities other than revelation as such…

…The Mormons, of course, are an important example of those who supplement the Bible with other authorities. Not only do they add the Book of Mormon, the  Doctrine and Covenants  and the   Pearl of Great Price , they also have a “living prophet,” the head of the Mormon church through whom revelation still comes…

…they believe that the Bible contains errors not found in the other scriptures  ["other scriptures" = the author referring to supplemental “sacred texts” like The Book of Mormon, etc.] due to faulty translations and ignorance on the part of translators…

End of excerpts

~ ~ ~ ~

The similarities of The Way International and The Mormons are very striking.

~ ~ ~ ~

In the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 178, Whiteside quotes wierwille:

… “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”

On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original.  Putting it all together so that it fit  – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.” 

The subtle implication of wierwille’s claim shifts the Bible’s authority away from the text-in-context of the Bible and  onto  wierwille’s  self-assumed authority.

Besides the fact that wierwille is trying to hide his abundant plagiarism in plain sight by referring to it as  Putting it all together so that it fit ,  his fantastic claim that God would teach him  “the Word”  as it had not been known since the first century – it is worth noting that Christians back in that apostolic age had no Bible – the New Testament had  NOT  been written and The Septuagint  was not in circulation.

There is a huge gulf of differences in the cultures, the languages, and the worldviews that modern people find in the Bible. The problem is not the recognition of the gulf – but the method used to cross it. A modern-day reader of the Bible who wishes to treat the text itself as carrying some form of authority must pay attention to the values and priorities evidenced in the text itself, discernable through its composition and presentation, just as a translator who wishes to respect the integrity of the source document must be very attentive to the identifiable grammatical and semantic values of the ancient text… Some information from   Demons and Spirits in Biblical Theology: Reading the Biblical Text in Its Cultural and Literary Context  pages 3ff.

~ ~ ~ ~

On page 83 of the PFAL book in the chapter “That Man May Be Perfect” wierwille states:

“…Let’s see this from John 5:39. “Search the Scriptures…” It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille’s writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, “Search the scriptures…” because all Scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures – they are God-breathed.”

End of excerpts

~ ~ ~ ~

wierwille makes several insinuations here. First off, he suggests that not  ALL  that wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; that implies  SOME  of it is…secondly, wierwille is not as generous with conferring the God-breathed status on others. For example - he does NOT say “not all what Calvin said was necessarily God-breathed, nor all that Luther said…& etc.” Rather he simply states “not what Calvin said, nor Luther…”which suggests that none of their writings are God-breathed whereas  at least some of wierwille’s writings are God-breathed.

~ ~ ~ ~

As a TWI-cult-survivor reflecting on my 12 years of involvement it is obvious to me now how much I held PFAL in high regard. Without realizing it I used it as a supplement to Biblical authority. I have noticed that in debates on Grease Spot Café some huge PFAL fans argue as if the class material has the same divine authoritative status as the Bible. They cite a tenet of PFAL like the law of believing works for saint and sinner alike. A bogus claim like that is easily shot down by asking the huge PFAL fan, “Where does it say that in the Bible?”

136. PFAL students get accustomed to esoteric interpretations of the Bible.

This may seem counterintuitive to PFAL’s strain of fundamentalism. I use the word “strain” to mean the pervading tone of TWI’s curriculum (which is the whole enchilada of the PFAL series of courses  – the Foundational, Intermediate and Advanced class). On other threads I have discussed there are  at least  4 distinct elements in wierwille’s theology here  , and here which I’ve labeled signature intuition, fundamentalism, spiritualism and Gnosticism.

Of the 4, in my opinion, Gnosticism may be the most mysterious undertone of PFAL. I use the term Gnosticism – not in a historical sense, referring to a collection of religious ideas and systems that coalesced in the late 1st century AD among Jewish and early Christian sects – rather, I’m highlighting wierwille’s emphasis  on personal spiritual knowledge. And like the Gnostics, wierwille seemed to draw on similar themes: material existence being flawed or evil, the principal medium of redemption being a direct knowledge of the divine achieved by mystical insight, concepts of sin and repentance are addressed as devilish deception and enlightenment.

also see:

Gnosticism - Wikipedia 

Gnosticism - Britannica

Gnosticism | Theopedia  

Gnosticism explained - learnreligions.com

Welcome - Gnosticism Explained )

~ ~ ~ ~

Many things taught in the Advanced Class would be so puzzling to the ears and minds of outsiders. I believe that’s because it is extremely enigmatic, intended for only a select group of people with the “highly  specialized  knowledge” from the formative indoctrinating programs of the foundational and intermediate classes on PFAL.

~ ~ ~ ~

On pages 107ff in Scripture Twisting by James W Sire the author addresses the esoteric interpretation of the Bible “…because it presents itself as a way of understanding the true, spiritual meaning of the Scriptures. As Mary Baker Eddy says, “The one important interpretation of Scripture is the spiritual.”…

…Two separate but related strains in the esoteric tradition concern us. The first is the notion that the Bible… contains a secret, hidden, inner meaning that can only be spiritually discerned…the esoteric interpretation…

…The second is the practice not only of divining the hidden meaning of already existing texts but of receiving new revelation, special communication from the Other Side which tells us new information about reality and even about Jesus – supplementing biblical authority…

…Esoteric interpretation assumes that the Bible does not mean what it says on the surface. As Madam Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, the late nineteenth-century founder of the Theosophical Society, says in Isis Unveiled, “The greatest teachers of divinity agree that nearly all ancient books were written symbolically and, in a language, intelligible only to the initiated.” Unless one has the special insight given only to the few, the elite, one will remain forever on the outside.”

End of excerpts

~ ~ ~ ~

Whenever I review Sire’s book, I am always struck by the contradictory nature of wierwille’s theology. In the foundational class on PFAL, in the very first session, wierwille informs us the Bible is the revealed word and will of God and that it means what it says and says what it means. The dominant theme of the foundational class is fundamentalism. It is not until a faithful TWI-follower gets to the Advanced Class that the other deceptive elements of his signature intuition, spiritualism, and Gnosticism come more into play. And it is because fundamentalism is the predominant “tune” of the foundational class on PFAL, that it is almost impossible to get newly minted grads to notice the anamorphic undertones.

~ ~ ~ ~

Next up is the 137^th reason of why PFAL sucks: PFAL supplements Biblical authority.

On 4/19/2023 at 3:36 PM, OldSkool said:

There ya go. Instead of one original, oldest manuscript we have thousands of manuscripts, which is better as noted in the quote you left T-Bone. Yet, wierwille has convinced people like Mike (and formerly myself) that the only reliable intrepretation is what wierwille says it is. God is perfectly able, capable, and has preserved his pure Word of God for those who want it. Wierwillism overthrows a person's faith in God's ability to effectually communicate himself, leaving them instead with all kinds of doubt as evidenced by mike's post. 

7 hours ago, Charity said:

When you think of it, after all God did to inspire people to write His Word so that we could know Him and his Son, it's not possible that He would not have protected them throughout the millenniums and continue to protect them.  A good friend sent me some videos about this topic which I'd like to go back and finish watching.

3 hours ago, Mike said:

This is well stated, Charity, and it is a point I made a bunch of times in the NT Canon thread.  

1.I think Mike is mistaken. OldSkool and Charity are talking about how the actual written text was preserved. On the NT Canon thread Mike had a difference of opinion on how the NT Scriptures were canonized. Two different topics – Grease Spotters can go to  New Testament Canon (greasespotcafe.com)  to see the difference. No need to go into the details here – except to say Mike belittled the scholarly process (here’s one explanation =  New Testament canon ), Mike referred to that as a ‘top-down approach’ ; Mike dubbed his own questionable method a ‘bottoms up approach’, but his overly simplistic  technique merely amounted to Mike’s inane attempt at literary structure and an unhealthy paranoia of the devil…some Mike misfires on NT canon thread:    here   , here , and here .   

3 hours ago, Mike said:

An interesting fine detail in this is how the adversary attempts to destroy God's written Word, and has some partial successes. But in the long run, God wins.  Sometimes that long run is real long, and sometimes not.

All this is illustrated in Jeremiah 36, where the time between the devil destroying the written Word and God restoring it was a mere few days.  It can be longer.  

Romans 10:9,10 was buried in the "debris of the temple" until Martin Luther discovered it around 15 hundred years later.

2.If Mike’s statement hits you as coming from out in left field, that’s because it is!

Charity, OldSkool and the NT Canon thread touch on the necessity and benefits of textual research – to preserve the written Word of God. It does not address the formulation of doctrine – that’s reserved for other scholarly disciplines like systematic theology and biblical theology.

Mike has attempted to compare apples to unicorns.

Mike refers to  Jeremiah 36 NIV which is a thrilling record of God “re-issuing” certain Scripture that was destroyed besides adding to it…but then he makes a PFALudicrous Type of Leap in Logic to make an incoherent comparison of preserving the Written Word of God with formulating doctrine, i.e., Martin Luther’s teaching of salvation as the free gift of God's grace through the believer's faith in Jesus Christ.

The analogy falls flat for several reasons.  Jeremiah 36 states it was Jehoiakim who burned Jeremiah’s scroll. Mike’s remarks seem to be infused with wierwille’s Advanced Class demonology (I tend to think the only reason wierwille knew anything about the devil was because he lived like one). Mike in his usually biased commentary seems always overly zealous to give the devil far more credit than he deserves while at the same time marginalizing God Almighty. There is nothing comparable to God ‘reissuing’ Scripture – in effect preserving it in Jeremiah 36  and Martin Luther challenging the authority and office of the pope…

...Knowing wierwille and Mike’s animosity toward the Roman Catholic church I can’t help but think this is another one of Mike’s not-so-subtle allusion to the ‘greatness’ of wierwille’s ministry – the consummate hypocrite who bragged about cheap grace of Romans 10: 9 & 10 and the freedom we have in Christ but secretly he was a law unto himself totally independent of the Lord Jesus Christ – he was an unabashed plagiarist, pathological liar, money grubbing thief, megalomaniac, delusional, malignant narcissist, drunkard and a sexual predator…

...and mind you we're not talking about one-time sins – wierwille was a repeat offender having several sinful ‘careers’ - - sorry to inform big wierwille fans but he proved by the way he lived, he was unrepentant and maybe you’ll make the correlation with the rest of Matthew 3:8: Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God… Matthew 3:8 NLT

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

Indeed, I just looked it up and in reference to the first two humans in Genesis, it does refer to Adam as Eve's husband.

It still strikes me as peculiar to do so when there was nobody around to officiate a wedding ceremony. 

Some theoretical PFALists suggest Adam and Eve were on a tight budget:

Eve couldn’t afford a wedding gown.

Adam couldn’t afford a tux.

They saved money by nixing the church for a Garden Wedding.

Adam, being a do-it-yourselfer, officiated the ceremony himself.

Eve so wanted a traditional wedding, so they settled on having the bride’s father walk her down the aisle.

They cheaped out on wedding reception centerpieces, by hiring a British produce vendor named Sir Pent to provide half-priced fruit bowls.

They nixed the fancy double doors for one emergency exit-only door and as fate would have it, they accidentally got locked out of their own Garden Wedding Reception.

134. Devoted PFAL grads consider the class to be  the  gold standard of interpretive tools for the Bible.

On page 4 of Power For Abundant Living: The Accuracy of the Bible, wierwille states:

This is a book containing Biblical keys. The contents herein do not teach the Scriptures from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21; rather, it is designed to set before the reader the basic keys in the Word of God so that Genesis to Revelation will unfold and so that the abundant life which Jesus Christ came to make available will become evident to those who want to appropriate His abundance to their lives.

End of excerpts

~ ~ ~ ~

Faithful PFAL grads are encouraged by their leaders to see the things taught in the class as a paragon of excellence. It is considered a benchmark to judge the accuracy of one’s interpretation of a passage. I remember reading an article in The Way Magazine that said “PFAL is the touchstone for truth”. Touchstone = a piece of fine-grained dark schist or jasper formerly used for testing alloys of gold by observing the color of the mark which they made on it; a standard or criterion by which something is judged or recognized; similar words: criterion, standard, yardstick.

Philosophically, this is one of the many fatal flaws ( see  Why PFAL sucks item # 133, posted 4/18/2023 4:18 PM  ) that may ultimately lead to ruining a life. Consider the words of Jesus Christ:

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Matthew 7 NIV

It is ironic that PFAL is referred to as the foundational class.

And note Jesus spoke of a worst-case scenario for failure to heed  His  words. Where would His words be found?

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written…John 21:25

Power For Abundant Living book, chapter 15 titled To Whom The Word is Written, pages 207ff, wierwille says the following – some comments by me are inserted in black font between brackets [ ]:

Most people believe that the entire Bible – from Genesis to Revelation – is written to them. This is not true. Believing that the entire Word of God is written to everyone throughout history has caused confusion and contradiction in rightly dividing The Word…

[He quotes Romans 15:4 “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope”, and also  I Corinthians 10:11  “Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come”, and then he states ] All Scripture before Pentecost is not addressed to us but is for our learning…

…Then what about the laws of Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers – all those things in the Old Testament? Are they addressed to us? No. To whom are they addressed to the Jews or to the Gentiles because the Church of God had not yet come into being…For instance, the Ten Commandments are not written to us, but we can learn from them…

…To this point, people usually understand. But now take this key a step further in accurately dividing God’s Word. To whom were the Gospels addressed? To a period before or after Pentecost? The Bible indicates that the four Gospels…took up with the birth of Christ and terminated with His ascension ten days before the day of Pentecost…

…One of the greatest errors in the translation of the Bible was placing the four Gospels in the New Testament. The Gospels logically belong in the Old Testament…

End of excerpts

~ ~ ~ ~

I can still remember around this point in the video how animated wierwille became , as I sat through the foundational class for the first time in 1974. He talked about how in terms of importance and appropriateness, preachers and most Christians thought the status of the Gospels were  ‘way up here’  gesturing by holding his right hand above his head – but the church and leadership epistles were thought to be  ‘way down here’ lowering his hand to just about knee height. There is no clearer example of a misguided cleric broadcasting erroneous interpretive methods than this particular session of PFAL –  and the potential danger to those not familiar with the Bible and the basic tenets of Christianity.

No one church group or single believer has got it all right. But at the risk of sounding simplistic, Christianity revolves around Christ. It’s about Him…learning about Him…believing in Him…following Him...the whole idea is to have a genuine dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ...this is not school - you don't need a relationship with another book. 

Sure, the Bible is involved – but it would be impossible to find out what Jesus is all about if the gospels were not written (cue the John 21:25 verse). Why did wierwille degrade them? And it’s not just learning about Him. It would be impossible to follow Him if we didn’t know what He expected of us to do as His followers - cue the Matthew 7 stuff about hearing Jesus’ words and putting them into practice…That’s Christianity plain and simple...

...Opposite to that - TWI promotes  busy work  , wishful thinking ,  and  procrastination  – and they give it all biblical-sounding names or weird definitions and phrases, cult jargon: renewed mind, retemories, positive affirmations, lift list, abundant sharing, held in abeyance, holding forth The Word, under-shepherd someone.

At the end of the PFAL class wierwille encourages the new students to put aside any other reading material for the next 3 months and read the church epistles – and if memory serves – I think he says something like if you do that you won’t recognize yourself…The more I think about that, now as a cult-survivor – wierwille might have unintentionally revealed his goal as a cult-leader…when cults indoctrinate you…brainwash you…whatever you want to call it – it’s not an overnight process where they mold you into a radically different person…from my own 12-year involvement I know it was not shock-therapy but a gradual immersion into the cult lifestyle, slowly adopting the cult mindset. My personality and character were NOT totally replaced - some tendencies, preferences and goals were subjugated...sidetracked...infected,...twisted...but I believe humans are resilient so I believe in hope for every cult-survivor!

The key difference between personality and character is that personality reflects your tendencies, while character reflects what you do. Personality is more of a spectrum, with different levels of influence in different situations. Character is based on the choices that we make when no one else will know about them or see us for who we are…

...Cults make inroads to your heart - to subvert and pervert what drives you, what is allowed to influence you, what sways your judgement. Cults ‘prune’ our decision tree’ – get us to think in absolutes, and reduce the options you have to choose from – it does make life easier – if you want to look at it from a cult-leader’s perspective    - your choice in a given situation is either do it our way   (i.e., wierwille’s dictates) or  do it the world’s way  (what normal people do, i.e., put your marriage and family first, get insurance, go to the doctor or emergency room if you're in real serious pain, pursue the goals and career of your choosing - assuming they're legitimate   ).

One’s personality and character become modified where it needs to be adapted to survive and ‘thrive’ in a cult environment. Even if you’re the squeaky-clean-Dudley-Do-right type who wouldn’t hurt a fly - if you stay in a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult like The Way International long enough, you’ll learn to turn a blind eye to any moral depravity “for the sake of the ministry”.

Okay – so you’re not mimicking the bad behavior of sexual predators like wierwille or others. Your conscience may not be seared by a hot iron. perhaps  you've just lacked opportunity...or maybe you are the squeaky-clean type   But if following and supporting known sexual predators doesn’t bother you – maybe you left your conscience in the deep-freeze.    And be forewarned unrepentant hypocrites will try to guilt-trip you into being forgiving and not judging others. Never mind that there is a double standard in TWI. Hypocrites prominently stand at the pulpit to preach we should obey "The Word" but don't expect them to walk the talk.

And hey - any of you newcomers to TWI who happened to sneak over to the forbidden Grease Spot Zone - wake up and smell the bull-$hit! Look up what Jesus said about those whitewashing hypocrites. Folks on Grease Spot are not making this stuff up!!!!!!!!! wierwille was a shyster! A plagiarist. A sexual predator. A megalomaniac. A user and abuser. A drunkard. A misogynist. A pathological liar. A malignant narcissist. 

My oh my…isn’t it funny? Me thinking the PFAL class was the  gold standard of interpretive tools for the Bible. That took me on a 12-year detour through crazy town…I did pick up a few souvenirs…WOW pin…Advanced Class nametag…Way Corps nametag…met my future wife (still married – 47 years and loving it)…learned some valuable life-lessons…made some bad decisions…I’m still unpacking my luggage from the trip – sorting out the toxic doctrines, intellectual and emotional baggage. But at least it’s getting unpacked – and I’ve got an idea of what to work on. 

PS - don't be alarmed by this picture...it's not me...I actually feel really good when I unpack my mental baggage.  

oh crap...where did I put the charger for my Kindle?

57 minutes ago, Charity said:

Someone has recently shared with me that real cult leaders hang on forever to an organization they have founded because they are narcissists.  In other words, they don't pass on all leadership roles to others and move away from what they've built to build something that is bigger and better. 

A few posters have shared information about narcissists.  I need a website that confirms that the opposite to this is not only possible but most likely. 

I know vp never moved on to start a new ministry under a new name with greater claims of what God has called him to do but Bickle has quite a few times. 

Sorry – not sure what you’re looking for…could a person have cult-leader type characteristics and start more than one cult? I imagine so. Could it mean they are not a narcissist because they have their fingers in a lot of pies – I don’t know.

Not sure if you’re looking to make a correlation with narcissism and cult-leader personality types – what I would look at is how to identify a narcissist and a cult-leader and just see where the trails lead – where the intersect and diverge…here’s a few I just found by Googling “Are cult leaders always narcissists?”:

9 Ways Many Narcissists Behave Like Cult Leaders | Psychology Today

Cult Leaders May Be Suffering From Narcissistic Personality Disorder - Mental Health Matters Cofe (mentalhealthmatters-cofe.org)

Why People Become Narcissists, Gaslighters and Cult Members | Psychology Today

14 Ways Narcissists Can Be Like Cult Leaders (psychcentral.com)

Cult leaders and the psychological traits that make people want to follow them (ibtimes.co.uk)

8 Ways Narcissists Are Like Cult Leaders - Kim Saeed

Malignant Narcissism: Stereotypical Characteristics of a Cult Leader - Freedom of Mind Resource Center

7 hours ago, OldSkool said:

I forget which class I heard this little tibbit of information, I think thought it was either the intermediate class or the old DTA?... Anywho....The way international teaches the Spirit of God is the light of God in concretion. Anyone know where the heck this came from? Or is this another of VPW vain imaginings? 

I'm not familiar with that one.

Hits me as a mumbo jumbo of contradictory or disparate 'stuff'

spirit = the nonphysical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul; a metaphysical reference.

light = the natural agent that stimulates sight and makes things visible; understanding of a problem or mystery; enlightenment

concretion = a hard solid mass formed by the local accumulation of matter.

"Spirit of God is the light of God..." - okay, maybe we're talking the Holy Spirit's enlightenment - but "in concretion" ????????????!? WTF does that mean? Okay, OldSkool let's move on - - I'll take The Great Principle for $100 worth of PFAL vouchers - good toward half a Public Ex. times thinking in tongues squared to the phony doctorate degree.

4 hours ago, Mike said:

...Eve had a perfectly renewed mind...

20 minutes ago, waysider said:

She did?

Serpent: oooh Eve, that’s some pair you’ve got there!

Eve: That sounds like one of those pickup lines Perville taught us in the CF&S class.

56 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

There ya go. Instead of one original, oldest manuscript we have thousands of manuscripts, which is better as noted in the quote you left T-Bone. Yet, wierwille has convinced people like Mike (and formerly myself) that the only reliable intrepretation is what wierwille says it is. God is perfectly able, capable, and has preserved his pure Word of God for those who want it. Wierwillism overthrows a person's faith in God's ability to effectually communicate himself, leaving them instead with all kinds of doubt as evidenced by mike's post. 

You know, it occurred to me in my post, I could have made a seventh challenge - also to Mike – finish reading Penworks’ book Undertow  - there’s some relevant stuff in it about  changing NT words / translation work…wierwille who was incompetent when it came to the biblical languages – pressured  the research department to translate a NT word very differently than what a person with expertise in Koine Greek  would translate it – totally changing the tone of what the biblical writer intended to convey…and  THAT ladies and gentle peoples is how TWI does research.                 :)

5 emoticons were mortified by this post.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Thank you, much, for both of those points.

I'll go back to " trying to convince anyone of the veracity of Wierwille's writings" on some other thread, but that is not my aim here at all.

 

2 hours ago, Mike said:

You are right.
But Eve had a perfectly renewed mind at one time, and she had access the Author of her command to not eat.

We don't have the originals, especially when we look at English versions. With the English the strict rules, that DID apply to the originals in the original languages, don't apply as strictly to man-made translations and versions.

Think about the rule to not change a word:
In a translation nearly EVERY word is changed from one language to another.

That is just one example of how "no, add, no subtract, no change" don't apply as strictly to English versions as they did to Eve.

Remember also that even the critical Greek texts are modern (16th century and newer) scholarly attempts to re-construct the originals... which may have not been Greek...   LOTS of words got added, subtracted, changed.... The question should be "Are changes rightly dividing the Word?"

 

This is getting to be so silly with these fragmented mishmash-um-ups and regurgitated wierwille vomit of the turd kind.

Excellent points everyone else – it’s tricky unraveling the goofy knots!

There’s an idea in here somewhere for a parody of wierwille’s incompetent research and analytical skills.

Picture this:

wierwille runs a watch & clock repair shop called This Day and Time and Hour. Folks bring their watches and clocks in for repairs, maintenance, and modifications.

His standard procedure is to totally disassemble the timepiece regardless of what it needs done to it. By the time    it’s all apart he realizes it doesn’t tell time anymore. Oh well...

He’s good about giving you a loaner watch (his timepiece of choice is a Mickey Mouse Watch limited edition –  he gets them cheap - he buys them second hand – ba dum bum   I'm here all week folks…now if the loaner watch craps out he says to call his shop during normal operating hours and he’ll tell you what time it is…how convenient...he’s pretty good about answering the phone… unless he’s busy schtupping in the motorcoach. )  end of stoooooowee cue the credits - roll the coming attractions .

I’ve gone over this translation / version stuff a few times on different threads for Mike – but it bears repeating here…the following is a revised version from my post on The Absent Christ? thread Sunday October 9, 2022, 9:23 AM  which I’ve reconfigured for this discussion:

wierwille was far removed from analyzing the actual texts that are still in existence; in the PFAL book, page 128 in chapter 11,   “The Translations of the Word of God”, wierwille states:

“Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all verses.”

I see at least two critical issues with wierwille’s approach:

First: He’s off by about a century and a half on the oldest manuscripts in existence – FF Bruce notes in his book The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? on page 10 that there are in existence over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in whole or in part and that the best and most important of these go back to somewhere about AD 350...point is there are more docs available to check than what wierwille said.

Second: wierwille is not comparing Greek manuscripts – instead he is comparing translations or versions of the Bible! That’s like playing the telephone game - the first person states a message and by the time it goes through a whole line of people the message sounds entirely different from the original.  wierwille is at the end of the line - comparing how one translator interprets a phrase in the Greek to how another translator handles the same phrase.

Frankly I have zero faith in wierwille’s ability to see beyond his own doctrinal preferences to note differences or similarities in translations since he would come up with goofy phrases that blurred variations like “all without exception” and “all without distinction” – which is the same thing.

 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~Scholars F.F. Bruce  and Sir Frederic Kenyon  – both with expertise in the historical reliability of the New Testament have stated that very little has been lost as to what was originally written in the New Testament docs, in The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?  by FF Bruce... it says on pages 14 and 15:

“The study of the kind of attestation found in MSS and quotations in later writers is connected with the approach known as Textual Criticism. This is a most important and fascinating branch of study, its object being to determine as exactly as possible from the available evidence the original words of the documents in question.

It is easily proved by experiment that it is difficult to copy out a passage of any considerable length without making one or two slips at least. When we have documents like our New Testament writings copied and recopied thousands of times, the scope for copyists’ errors is so enormously increased that it is surprising there are no more than there actually are.

Fortunately, if the great number of MSS increases the number of scribal errors, it increases proportionately the means of correcting such errors, so that the margin of doubt left in the process of recovering the exact original wording is not so large as might be feared; it is in truth remarkably small. The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice.

To sum up, we may quote the verdict of the late Sir Frederic Kenyon, a scholar whose authority to make pronouncements on ancient MSS was second to none: ‘The Interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.’ “

End of excerpts

~ ~ ~ ~

Bruce’s point is simple – with the increase of hand-copies comes the possibility of scribal errors – but that also means you have that many more “witnesses” as to what was originally said. And another thing to consider is what type of scribal errors occurred. Was a word misspelled, or repeated or transposed, etc. - - these would be easy to spot and corrected by comparing other copies.

~ ~ ~ ~

 Multiple challenges present themselves…not to be confused with 'Scripture interprets itself'

First challenge: how can wierwille claim he can get back to the authentic prophecy when it was first given if he is only looking at translations and versions instead of the manuscripts written in the original biblical languages? In my humble opinion, it is doubtful wierwille was even competent to read and understand any of the biblical languages anyway.

Second challenge: what standard or criteria did wierwille use declare that the KJV or other translations lack validity and authority in matters of the Christian faith?

Third challenge: specifically what errors are there in the KJV - or in other translations, for that matter - that need to be addressed because it is mission critical to the church and/or one’s Christian faith? Or to put it another way - what errors does PFAL confront and resolve to make PFAL a better version of Christianity?

Fourth challenge: How is PFAL God-breathed if all wierwille did to put it together was just compare translations / versions …oh, and plagiarize the work of others too?

Fifth challenge: God’s breath gave life to Adam ( Genesis 2:7  ) and to Scripture (  2 Timothy 3:16  ) which in a way represents an extension of God Himself.  If PFAL grads believe that a bundle of plagiarized material and heretical doctrines are God-breathed - then doesn’t that make God a lying, thieving loon? Just sayin’.

Sixth challenge: goes out to Mike and has to do with pulling theories out of his … …thin air   - based on a variation of the I John 4:20 ‘principle’:

Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen…1 John 4:20

How can Mike say we are given glimpses of God’s budget, double doors and the reason for the lack of signs, miracles and wonders when he can’t even show where the glimpses are in the written Word of God – the Bible – any translation, anytime, anywhere?

11 hours ago, Charity said:

In jumping from one Google search to the next, I happened across "The Book of Acts - Corps Notes by vpw - all 467 pages of it.  Amazing how these things happen .

http://eternallyblessed.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Acts-Corps-Notes.pdf

Here's a quote from page 7

"I want you to acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness of the book of Acts and an awareness of the greatness of that Word and how it really fits. You can take any major piece of work that God has given in the Word and if you really work it with a minute accuracy, by the time you finish it you will have garnered the principles that then can be utilized in every other book in every other walk in your life where you are walking and developing that spiritual depth and awareness. ------------------- It’s not something you learn overnight; the new birth is something that happens like that. It’s like the first birth when you were delivered or brought forth. The new birth is an instantaneous thing, but the growing up is in many respects like growing up physically. Spiritual awareness and real sharp perception does not happen overnight. It’s a growth in your walk, your knowledge of the Word and your overall practice of the principles of the greatness of God’s Word."

10 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Lots to refute here, bless his little heart, but I’ll start with thie quote above.

Anyone know WITAF are the principles of greatness?

“your knowledge of the Word and your overall practice of the principles of the greatness of God’s Word”

principles are rules, beliefs, or values that guide or influence behavior or evaluation; something based on the laws of nature or a system, something that helps us know what is right and wrong.

Considering the context, it’s one of wierwille’s typical innocuous statements that can be interpreted in many ways. I tend to be wary of his word salads though – since they are often comprised of pat answers, dog whistles (using coded or suggestive language in messaging to garner support from a particular group without provoking opposition), jargon, and just pet phrases he liked to toss out to the audience.

When reading or listening to something wierwille said - as a TWI-cult-survivor I sometimes find myself mentally pressing the slo-mo button to analyze what he’s really saying. Depending on how you slice it and dice it – it could be interpreted as:

your knowledge of the Word [that you get from my class PFAL] and your overall [ complete and undivided ]   practice [believing ] of the principles [rules – like the law of believing and all the other stuff I taught you in PFAL ] of the greatness of God’s Word [the vast untapped riches that I’ve already revealed to you in PFAL].

~ ~ ~ ~

Here now is the greatness of another T-Bone digression:

“The Word”

Remember the subtle crucial shift of importance in PFAL when wierwille says “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ"…and so instead of a moral imperative to follow Jesus Christ – having  a genuine dynamic relationship with a person - Him ! which should be compelling enough – it is eclipsed by an intellectual directive to study “The Word”…that’s what probably led me to have a cold…clinical…book-knowledge approach to Christianity during my time in TWI - rather than pursuing a deeper…personally immersive experience through Jesus Christ.

I am also highly suspicious of the manner in which wierwille seemingly hijacked the term “The Word”. In the NT we know that’s it’s used by itself only a few times (in the Greek The Logos) where it refers to Jesus Christ. He is The Word. Most places it has something attached – “the word of truth”, “the word of God”, “the word of the Lord”, etc. to bring more specificity to the meaning…wierwille so drilled into my head the concept of “The Word” really being his interpretation of the Bible – his saying The Word takes the place of the absent Christ   takes on a whole other sinister cult-like meaning.

1 hour ago, Charity said:

My point in asking about this is why did Jesus not mention what Paul revealed by revelation in 1 Thess 4:16-17 about the Lord himself descending from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ rising first...why did Jesus not mention this when talking about the events of the end times in Matthew 24? 

If it was because it was not revealed to Jesus until after his ascension which he then later passed onto Paul, it might touch on your question from an earlier post about"the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not?"

Just some quick thoughts

Review the passages below and then ask yourself the following questions – and for now I’ll put myself on the line, so you’ll see my answer right below each question in bold red :

1.       Is it possible Christ’s return as described in Matthew 24 is the same event as that mentioned in I Corinthians 15 and I Thessalonians 4?

T-Bone’s response: currently I lean toward them all speaking to the same event – but obviously having different aspects – physically, spiritually, symbolically. But check back with me next week – I could change my mind…just kidding. If you have not done so already – review the 2 Dr. Heiser hyperlinks I posted on eschatology.

2.       Does the mystery of Christ that Paul talks about in Ephesians 1 & 4 suggest there is a rapture / gathering together aspect that is a separate and distinct event from what’s mentioned in Matt. 24, I Cor. 15 and I Thess. 4?

T-Bone’s response: I don’t think so. The mystery of Christ mentioned in Ephesians talks about unity of Jews and Gentiles being heirs together and of the same body with Christ as the head. I also Googled “was Jesus aware of the Gentiles being included?” and found this:

Jews and Gentiles are often put in contrast with one another because what separates them is whether they believe in God or not. However, when the scope of Scripture is taken into account, God’s plan of redemption has always included the Gentiles. Before His death and resurrection, Jesus told His disciples to go into all nations sharing the Gospel and baptizing all people. Paul wrote clearly that Jesus’ saving work was for all to receive and that no longer was Jewish descent what saved someone, rather, it was belief in Jesus Christ.

From: Gentiles - Their Meaning from the Bible (biblestudytools.com)

And also found this:

The vision of a kingdom that included Jews and Gentiles was part of Jesus’ plan from the very beginning of His ministry.

Jesus’ first sermon in his hometown of Nazareth demonstrates that His life purpose extended far beyond the nation of Israel. He was not surprised that His own people — the Jews — did not receive His message. “That’s the way it has always been,” He said. (Luke 4:24, author’s paraphrase). He then gave an example: “There were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah … and Elijah was sent to none of them but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow” (Luke 4:25-26, ESV). His hearers knew the rest of the story told in the Old Testament book of 1 Kings 17. Received into a Gentile home, Elijah performed the remarkable miracle of replenishing the flour and oil, then later restored the widow’s son to life — not a Jewish widow, but a Gentile!

Did Jesus Come to Reach the Gentiles? | Cru

You might enjoy reading the entire article of both above links – very informative and Scripture-wise makes sense.

Another thing to think about is how we get caught up in labels and who identifies with what group. Those are physical. The church of Christ – the family of God – is an invisible church. Is it possible some lady who is a practicing Jew, attending synagogue, etc. could also belong to the invisible church of Christ? Is Christ so petty as to demand we join a church with a certain creed?

3.       In other words, are there 3 phases to Christ’s coming?

A.      He came the first time per the narrative of the gospels.

B.      He will come a second time for the rapture / gathering together of believers dead and alive.

C.       He will come a third time (traditionally this has been referred to as Christ’s second coming).

T-Bone’s response: So far, I lean more and more on there being only two comings – Christ first coming is per the gospel narratives and the second - what’s described in Matt 24, I Cor 15, I Thess 4 and book of Revelation. Logically and doctrinally, this seems to make more sense to me than there being a secret plan that even Jesus did not know about – a secret plan that was revealed to Paul and maybe some other apostles first. What is the purpose of this secret plan? I will admit the rapture / gathering together is an attractive idea because I'm squeamish when it comes to suffering and inconveniences. 

4.       What would be the purpose of Jesus Christ coming back to snatch away just believers - alive and dead at the time – only to expect a new batch of believers to rise up and spread the gospel of Christ again?

T-Bone’s response: seems kind of redundant to me.

Matthew 24 NIV (biblehub.com)

1 Corinthians 15 NIV (biblehub.com)

Ephesians 1 NIV (biblehub.com)

Ephesians 3 NIV (biblehub.com)

1 Thessalonians 4 NIV (biblehub.com)

Hello Grease Spotters    , here’s another unimportant question from yours truly, that notorious commentary leaner.

What do you all think of wierwille’s explanation that what a medium called up was a devil spirit impersonating the dead prophet, Samuel?

Here is a hyperlink to the Bible chapter in NIV version:

 1 Samuel 28 NIV (biblehub.com)

You can easily navigate around Bible Hub website by clicking on tabs to read other versions, lexicons, interlinear, and yes, last but not least those infamous commentaries. To keep those annoying references to a minimum I decided to go with a word-specific textual font reduction.

I am going to copy and paste the NIV version here followed by a relevant excerpt from a study Bible.

What fascinated me the most was the stark contrast between wierwille’s approach and that of others ( I looked at several study Bibles and commentaries but kept my selection to just one study Bible)  far more qualified and legitimate scholars.

wierwille’s   obsessive / compulsive demonology fixation tinged many of his interpretations.  wierwille’s egomania - excessive preoccupation with himself and his identity as the man of God teaching “The Word” to his followers - kept everyone on a short leash... wierwille prided himself on being the authority on God and the Bible – providing definitive answers on many topics. Whereas the commentaries and study Bibles that I looked at are more tentative in their explanation of what happened in I Samuel 28.

I Samuel 28

1In those days the Philistines gathered their forces to fight against Israel. Achish said to David, “You must understand that you and your men will accompany me in the army.”

2David said, “Then you will see for yourself what your servant can do.”

Achish replied, “Very well, I will make you my bodyguard for life.”

3Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 5When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”

“There is one in Endor,” they said.

8So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

9But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”

10Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”

11Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

13The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure ^a coming up out of the earth.”

14“What does he look like?” he asked.

“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So, I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

20Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night.

21When the woman came to Saul and saw that he was greatly shaken, she said, “Look, your servant has obeyed you. I took my life in my hands and did what you told me to do. 22Now please listen to your servant and let me give you some food so you may eat and have the strength to go on your way.”

23He refused and said, “I will not eat.”

But his men joined the woman in urging him, and he listened to them. He got up from the ground and sat on the couch.

24The woman had a fattened calf at the house, which she butchered at once. She took some flour, kneaded it and baked bread without yeast. 25Then she set it before Saul and his men, and they ate. That same night they got up and left.

Footnotes:
a 13 Or see spirits; or see gods

From: 1 Samuel 28 NIV

~ ~ ~ ~

On pages 507 & 508 of NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible , on I Samuel 28:13, the following comments are offered:

A ghostly figure coming up out of the earth. Background information cannot resolve the many questions swirling around this event. Texts do not offer explanations of the phenomenon that was experienced in this necromancy, or how it may have differed from the norm…

...From a literary standpoint, there is no question that we should understand this as truly the spirit of Samuel, however phenomenologically problematic that conclusion might be. That in this instance Yahweh should deign to return Samuel from the grave – to the surprise of the woman and the dismay of Saul – in no way represents a validation either of the efficacy or the acceptability of necromancy.

Furthermore, it cannot be used to deduce revealed theology concerning the state of the dead or the nature of the soul since it may be an exceptional situation.

End of excerpt

23 minutes ago, Charity said:

One last thing, is vp's teaching that Jesus did not know about the "administration" of grace because it was hidden in God until Paul revealed it accurate?

that's a good question.

Let me think on that.

Right off the bat though, I'm thinking if administrations are something man-made than it's a moot question. And the more I think of it as I'm writing this - there's lots of things Jesus said in the gospels that makes me think he knew the plan, "there are others who are not of this fold" for example ...but I'll think on it and if I forget to get back to you - PM me 

Maybe other Grease Spotters got something.

133. In PFAL, wierwille’s ideology is presented as the ideal model for a good thinking process – but it has some fatal flaws. 

It’s kind of funny, that in PFAL wierwille makes a comment along the lines that most people assume that they’re good at pondering - but they’re really not. I think that is actually  one of the very  few  truthful statements in PFAL. It may seem counterproductive for a shyster to say that – but I think it functioned like a sales technique. Establish the customer has a real need.

Most folks, if they’re honest with themselves, will admit there’s always room for improvement of their cognitive skills. To survive and thrive in this world, it would be reckless to think otherwise. In PFAL we were presented with the one stop shop – it has everything you need to know about God, the Bible and even offered definitive answers about some of life's big questions.  

Now in my later years I’ve concluded we are more creatures of habit than we care to admit. Occasionally we may find we’re good at finding a way to squeeze some tidbit of new info into our pre-existing belief system.

wierwille was a sly con artist. The methodology he promotes in PFAL appeared to be logical and biased-free, yet unbeknownst to the student wierwille’s logical fallacies, Scripture twisting, incompetent plagiarism and such wormed its way into my  cognitive skills to gum up the works. I speak from 12 years of TWI involvement / indoctrination / mindset.

I thought of myself as a deep thinker, but I was merely indoctrinated to wholeheartedly accept  the wierwille/PFAL template. I assumed he had done all the deep thinking for me.

My innocent little act of acceptance allowed his master outline to dominate my outlook and how I processed input. To those outside TWI, I attempted to educate them on why their beliefs were flawed (I thought this was witnessing   ). Most of the time that inevitably failed – and I would quit wasting my time speaking to them – reasoning that they weren’t interested in hearing “The Word”. I was not a good listener.

The two biggest issues that I find in wierwille’s methodology are (and I’m sure other Grease Spotters will add to the list):

1.       wierwille’s   obsessive / compulsive demonology fixation tinged many of his interpretations. This becomes more obvious when you get to the Advanced Class…reflecting on that now, I wonder if wierwille was more in awe of the devil’s power – than of God Almighty and the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…but the more I think about it - in his private life he lived like the devil - so he probably didn't believe all the crap he taught anyway - which would mean his demonology was a manipulative tool of control to keep followers in line. During my years of service, I was afraid to think outside wierwille’s enslaving theological box...maybe it was more like a confusing and frustrating maze. I was like a rat trapped in a maze.  

2.       wierwille’s egomania - excessive preoccupation with himself and his identity as the man of God teaching “The Word” to his followers. wierwille prided himself on being the authority on God and the Bible – providing definitive answers on many topics. (I won’t bore everyone with the other symptoms that have been discussed to death on Grease Spot – suffice it to say it all mingled to make him one big hot mess of a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult-leader following his own ungoverned compulsions and delusions of grandeur)

2 hours ago, Charity said:

Bickle's whole ministry is based on his definition of "generation."  However, the website below explains why the author thinks the definition of "generation" used by many who are focused on the end times is not accurate.  I very much would like to know what you all think about this issue of the word "generation."

FYI - I posted this in the God’s Budget thread     and am reposting here since it’s relevant to latter times stuff and “generation” could be understood in a very brooooooooad sense 

I’ve found in a couple of study Bibles the latter times or later times can apply to  both  Paul and Timothy’s time as well as the future:

Both present and future: these “times” began in some sense with Jesus’ resurrection (some would say at Pentecost), which signaled the arrival of the age to come. Paul and Timothy were already living in these days (see 2 Tim.3:1), so Timothy must be ready to deal with some people abandoning the faith in that present time as well as in the future.

End of excerpt from page 2172 of I Timothy 4,  NIV, Biblical Theology Study Bible

~ ~ ~ ~

And on page 2111 0f I Timothy 4, NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible it says

later times. Probably evokes OT passages about the promised future time of restoration (Isa 2:2; Mic 4:1), but applicable to the present era between the Messiah’s first and second comings (cf. Ac 2:17).

End of excerpt from NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible

~ ~ ~ ~

For those of us who like to have definitive answers – this touches on the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not? I don’t know…In such dilemmas I adopt the attitude of be prepared either way…”whether in a hot mess or out of a hot mess I know not” yeah that’s my motto.

3 hours ago, Charity said:

1 Tim 4:1-5

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

To me, these verses read as something that is currently happening so I wondered why Timothy is making reference to the latter times.  So I did a simple google search and an awesome website came up which I'm going to put on the "If it talks like a cult..." thread." 

I’ve found in a couple of study Bibles the latter times or later times can apply to  both  Paul and Timothy’s time as well as the future:

Both present and future: these “times” began in some sense with Jesus’ resurrection (some would say at Pentecost), which signaled the arrival of the age to come. Paul and Timothy were already living in these days (see 2 Tim.3:1), so Timothy must be ready to deal with some people abandoning the faith in that present time as well as in the future.

End of excerpt from page 2172 of I Timothy 4,  NIV, Biblical Theology Study Bible

~ ~ ~ ~

And on page 2111 0f I Timothy 4, NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible it says

later times. Probably evokes OT passages about the promised future time of restoration (Isa 2:2; Mic 4:1), but applicable to the present era between the Messiah’s first and second comings (cf. Ac 2:17).

End of excerpt from NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible

~ ~ ~ ~

For those of us who like to have definitive answers – this touches on the rapture or gathering together doctrine  vs  the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not?

I don’t know…In such dilemmas I adopt the attitude of be prepared either way…”whether in a hot mess or out of a hot mess I know not...just keep on  with the keeping on"   yeah that's my new motto. 

9 hours ago, Mike said:

Nice try, but you are a rank amateur at conjuring up fear and condemnation. 

Here's a hint: even if you get skilled at this, it only works on those who have not made the Word the guiding light of their life.

maybe it's just me...but I find insinuations and harsh criticisms tend to confuse the message… I wonder if what was really meant was:  to become skilled in the illusions of terror and disapproval, one must make all things wierwille / PFAL  the guiding light of their life.

40 minutes ago, Mike said:

I don't get it.

Are you serious about implementing NT scriptures, yet you say the whole Bible is myths? 

Did you say that?  That was my impression.  It's hard for me, sometimes, to keep track of who wants to believe the Bible and who does not. 

Again – this is probably just me – sometimes I read into things…and there's also a cascading effect from the surge of previous statements and besides the fact that additional suggestive talk with bitter undertones puts the double-whammy to send the wrong message…I get the feeling – - what this really means (and like I said, I could be wrong) is that those who have made all things wierwille / PFAL  the guiding light of their life, skilled illusionists of terror and disapproval, find it extremely difficult to communicate with others who have not made all things wierwille / PFAL  the guiding light of their life.

22 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Howard Allen, bless his heart, was dead wrong about this.  Dead wrong.  His error is not surprising, considering who his "teacher" was.

Only David Goggins needs 3-4 hours of sleep.

yeah, and bedtime had a whole other predatory meaning for wierwille.

13 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

I recall hearing Howard Allen saying we only needed 3 to 4 hours of sleep a night. I don’t know if that was all the sleep he managed every night, but I certainly could not function on such little sleep. Is that all the rest the corps received each night?

I don't know...I've slept since then  

excuse me - couldn't resist...it was lights out by midnight

[sometimes we could get to bed sooner depending on variables...and sometimes if wife or I stayed up after midnight to work on research paper, a teaching, etc. we'd cover window and door threshold to prevent light leaks - cuz there were roving hall monitors - best of the best - crack SS troops  who were authorized to shut down violators...the lights-Nazis - "no lights for you"]   

and typically we'd get up about 5 AM...so on average we got about 5 hours of sleep.

4 hours ago, WordWolf said:

As stated at different times among the board, the policy for retirement for everybody (except the board) is

"THEY WILL WORK UNTIL THEY DIE."

I recall LCM saying that in many an after-meeting when I was in residence…but often he dealt with our more immediate concerns – like sleep deprivation – about which he liked to quip something like you’ll get to sleep all you want in heaven…

I think that must have been the double secret way corps principle and it even had a retemory verse:

…the wicked…cannot rest... Isaiah 57:20

 yeah that way corps program was wicked alright...

…all praise to him who lets me sleep zzzzZZZZ zzz   ZZZzzz

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

In all these 40 pages, did anyone ever once flash on these verses from Mark 5 and Jesus noticing that "virtue," a real spiritual commodity, had flowed out of him.

apparently you did

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

Has anyone ever wondered what these verses were talking about? 

you have been doing that a lot lately

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

Why mention this part of the story, when we might think that the woman's healing was the big deal. 

spider's-web-of-deceit sense is tingling 

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

Why did God put this "virtue" flow idea in there?  What can we learn from this?

who? what? where?

8 hours ago, skyrider said:

Philosopher Bertrand Russell quote (after devastation of WWI):

Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth — more than ruin, more even than death.  Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habits; thought is anarchic and lawless, indifferent to authority, careless of the well-tried wisdom of the ages.  Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid…Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man.

Freedom of the mind requires not only, or not even specially, the absence of legal constraints but the presence of alternative thoughts. The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

From:  The Closing of the American Mind by Allan Bloom

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

I should have included more of the context for the virtue drain verses.

Jesus was on the way to heal a sick girl.  The virtue drain occurs while on the way.  Then news arrives that the little girl had died.  Big job ahead for Jesus and virtue.  

and away goes virtue down the drain